#25: Larry Gadea, Envoy

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. This is episode 25, and I'm thrilled to welcome Larry Gadea onto the podcast. Larry is the founder and CEO of Envoy. Envoy is a workplace platform that helps companies manage hybrid work. Envoy started out as a way for people to check in when they visited a workplace. The pandemic really eliminated in-person work, obviously, and certainly visitors for quite a long time. So Larry talks in great detail about how he and his team reacted to the pandemic, how they engage customers, and how they really dug in and used this big existential threat as fuel to build out new products and features. Larry and I also discuss about how he handled the massive change management that was so critical to Envoy's success during this difficult time and how he personally developed his skillset as a leader and a manager from his early days as a founder to where he is now, 9 years later, as the CEO of a very successful company. This episode is filled with practical insights and with Larry's fun and super energizing personality. So please enjoy this amazing episode with Larry Gadea. Larry, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here.

Nice, nice. Thanks so much for having me.

So, you know, I know you talk about this all the time. Your background is super interesting. You emigrated from Romania to Canada and then you were recruited as a prodigy. I love that. You were recruited as a prodigy into Google and Twitter. And I'm so curious, after founding a company in your 20s, how do you think that like that experience growing up being immigrant affected your, you know, sort of entrepreneurial journey?

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, just being an immigrant, having parents that decide, hey, we're gonna do this. And like you're picking up and leaving from what is a pretty stable, comfortable place that you're in to go somewhere else. That's a pretty big deal. And like, it's, it takes a certain, like, there's a mindset there that, that will translate in a lot of different ways. We went through Germany and we were there for a year or two. And then we eventually ended up in Canada. But when we were in that middle ground, it's kind of like, literally my mom was like, she was cleaning houses and this was under the table. And my dad was picking berries. It's like they had to. And it's like, well, they couldn't get actual work visas and all that because there's this whole like Ceaușescu communism thing going on when they were leaving there. In Romania, and it's like, well, they had to do something to keep me and my brother afloat. That kind of attitude, that kind of like mindset is how you're just brought up. So then what happens is we went to Canada eventually. My dad found a COBOL job, and let me tell you, even today, COBOL is still in demand. They are— it just— they were constantly fighting the whole time, and like, it's like, hey, what can we do to do the best for our kids, obviously? But it's also like Well, they would always have really high expectations of me, and then I just grew up in a world where I had high expectations of myself. And so I don't know, maybe if it's immigration or if it's just like just the kinds of folks that are willing to go through these massive uphill battles to like accomplish something big and major. Yeah, I'm pretty, pretty excited about them. Really proud that they, that they did that. And, and of course I then started doing all sorts of wacky stuff on, on the side, just like As I learned about computers and learned about what they can do and learned about all the magic that can happen, I, of course, am a curious person. They only encouraged me, maybe a little too much. And then it's like, then I just got to know all these things. And nothing said prodigy anywhere, but let's just go with it. I got very lucky, and I definitely was interested in the right things, and things lined up very well to where, yeah, there's some great career stuff that happened for sure.

Yeah, I see that. I mean, I think it's amazing because you're really talking about like the, they did whatever it takes and then they kind of gave you that, maybe that mindset about whatever it takes. And then that really brings us to Envoy because what you started was this company that was really about visitors checking into the office. I'm sure you had a bigger vision. I'm sure that like there was something more than that, but like it was really fundamentally visitors checking into the office. And so speaking of whatever it takes, A global pandemic happened, right? Right. Completely disrupted your business. And you know what you've said, what I heard you say is that denial is an important feature of being a great entrepreneur. So I'd love to know what went through your head as the global pandemic, you know, came. And then let's reflect a little bit on denial and when you have to be in denial and when you have to give up.

All right. All right. So let's just clarify on this denial. So, so I'm sure I said it. I probably did not mean it as direct because Denial also implies that you don't know eventually, like you literally never end up knowing what the actual thing is. It's a little bit about like, you have to, in order to build a company, you have to believe in something that is not tangibly there. And people are gonna say like, it's not there. What are you doing? Like, it doesn't make any sense. And it's like, no, you have to believe it anyways. And, and this is like, it's like you wanna believe something. You have to believe that like, hey, This can be really big. There's a really big issue in the world. And though I don't see it right now that like, oh, look, there's like all these, uh, obviously we're gonna have all these customers and obviously we're gonna solve all these problems for these employees. It's like, no, but we see the little pieces at the beginning. So you have to like be really good at convincing yourself and convincing others around you that like, this is a bet worth taking. Everything about a startup is a bet. Everything about like every decision you make is a bet. Like sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And it like, it gets very graphic at times when it doesn't, but like you have to be ready for like taking whatever kind of thing happens and making it better and interesting and fixing it and whatever. And that's basically what a startup is. That's basically what a company is. I mean, we're 9 years in right now and it certainly hasn't gotten any easier. And it's just like, it's very hard at every single day, but hey, when a pandemic hits, you have to act. And it actually got this renewed sense of like, Let's go, let's build, let's do things. Um, because it's like, this is a huge opportunity. People rallied. They, they very quickly discovered that companies really wanted folks to have a place to go to if they couldn't work from home, if they didn't have Wi-Fi, didn't have all this stuff. So there's a lot of things that really started lining up and we believed in something. And it wasn't until like 6 months, 9 months afterwards that we actually launched the product to everyone. And that thing that we were in denial about, or like didn't really know 100%, we just believed in something that didn't exist. And then it did. And then it, it worked really, really well to the point basically we ended up fundraising and the whole gamut, like literally happened in the middle of the pandemic. Um, and yeah, that's like, it takes a lot. It's, it's not, everybody's ready for that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much to, to unpack there. I, I would love to know what I, what I know is that, and I'd love you to walk us through the details. That you kind of listened to your customers, right? So, there was something that you guys did about customer discovery when you could no longer accept visitors into offices and people couldn't even go into offices. So, I want to hear about that. And then, I want to hear specifically how you talked with your own employees about that because people don't like change. People are also married to the past. Even when it's like, "Hey, it's global pandemic. Things have changed." They're still married to their prior headcount plan, for example, or their roadmap. So, first of all, how did you do the customer discovery, like specifically? And then, how did you walk your employees through it?

Yeah, I mean, so we had a lot of— okay, so basically we had a lot of customers, uh, before the pandemic, and those customers all knew that they wanted their workplaces to still exist. Nobody suddenly changed their mind, you know what, we're all not going to have workplaces ever again because they're— the governments are telling us in like 2 weeks we'll all be back in the office, or like, I don't know, in, in a month or two we're all going— oh, the, the kids are going back in school in September, obviously that means everyone's going to work as well in September. And it's like, well, you know what, January really is when companies decide to do these things, and January is when we're all going back. But so basically this just kept on going, and it was the company, was the governments, it was everybody that like kept on repeating these things, and they all genuinely believed it. These companies still stuck around, and they stuck around because they wanted people back, they wanted people working with them, and, and That's really what ended up keeping people together, and that's what ended up growing to where we are today.

What did you learn about customer discovery, and what specifically did you build?

Yeah, it's— I mean, when everything's happening at once, you don't really know what exactly— it's like, well, what's the answer? Like, who do we go to? Like, it's— it's— there isn't like a clear— like, all of your roadmaps, by the way, get thrown out of the window completely. All this stuff you've been building towards, it's like, no, no, no, we're working on this infrastructure for saying a year or two from now. All of that is just like, it goes up. So what happens then is customers will reach out to you and customers will reach out to you because you are a piece of software, you build software, and they're going to want new things. They always want new things. And you're going to start noticing patterns. Now, the ones where you really get pulled into very quickly is when your bigger accounts start telling your success team, hey guys, we don't need your software anymore. We need to save money because we're in a pandemic. And oh no, so that's when I start getting pulled into things. And what happened is it was a very consistent thing. People were like, hey, listen, we don't have any visitors right now. In fact, our cities are requiring us to not have visitors in. But like, weird question, nobody else is getting, is like really responding to our emails and calls and stuff. But are you guys, does your company at all help with like, can we get employees in somehow? We just need the employees to like say that they're not sick. And that they haven't been near someone that's sick. And like visitors today, I can like type on the iPad. Can we get employees to use the same thing? And then of course, like, this is like a churn call, and I'm like, absolutely, the employees can like do it. Oh, for sure. Like, it's— oh yeah, you can keep— we can maybe even get some analytics on it. And like, in like just a couple months, like, you're gonna have that and more. And then suddenly they're like, well, wait a second, that's a really powerful thing. Because we really need that. We need to know exactly how many people are in. We need to make sure we're not more than 5% of the office. And we need to know this globally in all of our offices. In fact, we have some offices that we don't have visitors in, but we definitely have employees. And let's expand into those if you have what you're saying. And it's just like, that is how we turned what is a like, hey, we want all our money back, to hey, can we actually expand to more offices and do more things? But like, you got to build this thing. Totally. And the companies that can build are going to be the ones that can capitalize, I guess, on the opportunity. And the ones that are going to be like, well, it's like, I don't know, those ones are not. And like, that's the thing we just had to fight. And you have to build new things. And all of those long-term roadmaps out the window. That's a lot of frustrated people, but it's not necessarily the end of the world. Like, they, they understand that at the end of the day, it's like the business priorities are what they are. And that's, that's And they see it too. They see that like it doesn't make sense for them to work on this long-term thing. And the shorter-term change is absolutely the right thing to do. But it's not always easy.

But it's not easy. And to your point, you have to be agile. So, in my experience with my clients in the pandemic, a lot of the employees, first of all, they were married to their roadmaps. They were married to their headcount plan. And the CEOs I worked with were like, "Um, excuse me, the world has changed." And then, they would— the employees would also say, How long is this gonna be? And the CEOs that would tell me like, I don't know, I read the New York Times just like you do. I am not sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm wondering specifically how, like, at, and the first day of the pandemic, in the first 2 weeks of the pandemic, your employees must have been pretty upset. How did you think about engaging your leadership team, calming the employees, and then how did you help them understand that they had to quickly adapt to the new reality and, and really agilely make the shift with their mindset?

Yeah. So every single week in our company, we have a show and tell, and the show and tell is really just us. Like, we go over all of the latest news in our different products and what we're launching. We'll always have a customer case study. Sometimes we'll have the customer come in and like literally talk about like, hey, here's how we're using it, here's what we like, here's what we want. And then it's also like, hey, these are the birthdays, these are the new people that joined us. There's also a segment where I will talk every single week and I'll say what's top of mind from me. And it's called Real Talk. And these days it's a lot harder to be real in real talk, but like, let's just go with it. What happens is you have an opportunity every week to talk about, hey, this is where the market is. This is what the New York Times is saying. This is what everybody else is experiencing. And look, everyone, let's look at these articles together. And when you can show people that the problems they're experiencing are not just themselves or in the company here, but really it's the whole world, It's very quick to get people out of a, like, how did I screw up mentality into one that's like, oh geez, the whole world is doing this. And then if you keep pushing on that, you can go from like, okay, cool, to we need to take advantage of this. But like, that's like, that last shift is a lot harder, but the first shift is the one that's important to keep things stable and good. And our leaders all took, like, they all noticed this, but this was a very, like, I would say this was a, a pretty clear top-down kind of thing where we were just like, hey, this is what's happening in the market. Everyone, like, you do not need to worry about things, but like, we do want to build more and figure out more. And you can be sure the moment we noticed that our customers really wanted just like, hey, how do we get like our employees back in, we like said that every single week in our show and tells and like reminded people on a very consistent, fast basis. That like, yeah, this is really going to be big for us. And I mean, we were definitely right in the end, but it's like we had to build it, we had to try it. There's people that are like, hey, maybe we should be focusing more on our visitors features for like the long term. We have a lot of bugs, we have a lot of things we got to fix. And, and it's kind of like, well, which is it? And yeah, that, that balance is always really hard because it is a bet after all.

Yeah. I'd love to hear how you, how you thought about that balance. Was it you yourself deciding that or was it you were engaging other people? Because that's your exact point. Should we invest in these features and fix bugs and maybe pay down technical debt? Or should we realize the market opportunity right now and build the tools that our customers want? How did you think about that? And who did you talk to in your company before you made decisions?

Yeah, so this is an interesting question because one thing that we did that's unique to, I think, most companies is every single day, our exec team and I would meet on a daily basis. And this would happen every— it was like We started at like 5 o'clock every single day and it went from 5 to 6, from 6 to 7 to 8 to 9. Like it sometimes just like went literally till like 2 AM and we would just talk about what are we hearing from the market? What are people saying? Even if we have no agenda, we're still going to this meeting and we're going to talk about what's going on in the world. And I think just that cadence really got people to think about things and to like say like, hey, by this time tomorrow, can you guys like talk to this one customer and get back to us tomorrow to see like kind of what they said? And by having that cadence, that's really how the leaders of the company eventually, like, we got our stories together, we got our pieces, we all collected the things and, and got it done. Yeah, it's, it's easy to imagine that like somebody like myself would just like have a brilliant idea and then away it goes. But really at the end of the day, every brilliant idea needs complex execution. And I think a lot of companies don't really like, it's, you have to do that. And a lot of companies don't really think about like, that piece until it like comes up. And yeah, it was a lot of involvement from a lot of people, a lot of teams, a lot of long-term projects that were kind of being pushed aside for other things. But it, it worked out like, I mean, right. It's, it's, you have to get the buy-in from everybody to make big changes happen in companies.

Yeah. And it sounds like what you're saying is the key is the communication and the key is the communication cadence, which obviously you learned. And I'm just curious, I mean, you've been in this for 9 years with your own company. You were a prodigy, a prodigy. Prodigy.

There's no certification for that.

But when you were 17, you know, you started at Google. How did you develop your core management skills on the topic of communication and even just understanding that things have to not just be thought through but done? How did you develop your core management skills?

I think it's like, uh, this is a really great question because it's, it's I think different for everyone. Um, It's something you— the answer is like, you kind of just figure it out after a while. You see that people get upset at you. You see that they like get like very excited with you, that you see that they like these kinds of things. And if you're picking it up and you're a pretty rational person, I think it's like not super complicated to get the basics down. But like the problem is like leadership and management skills, there is no one skill set that like will survive, an entire time that you are building a company. Like if you're building a company that's growing, totally different skill sets will be necessary on day 1 versus day 100 versus day 1,000 and day 10,000, like totally different skill sets where on day 1 it was about like, go, go, go, be highly opinionated. Don't explain yourself. Just go. Um, on day 100, day, uh, 1,000, especially day 10,000. Now it's more about like, encourage your people to go, go, go and remind them that like that idea they have is a good one, they should try it. And it's okay that it was a complete miserable failure when it was because like they should try another one and maybe that one won't be. And it's like, it's kind of, it's still about taking risks, making iterative steps to everything, but it's, it turns more from like a, how do you directly do it to how do you compel people to compel people to do it? And, and that's the piece. That's where culture really comes in. And that's where really like a mindset of, of people needing, uh, like, that's really at the end of the day how a company runs. It's just like, well, what are your philosophies and what are your values as a company for how it should operate? And that's, that's all you can really do.

I, oh my God, I love it. I, you're, you're like, it's like you're throwing red meat to me. I, I'm going to ask you about culture and your values in a second, but before I do that, can you think about a moment when you were operating your own, like, playbook or management playbook when you were like, huh, this doesn't work anymore. Like, this worked before in the months prior, but it's not working anymore. Is there an example that comes to mind?

Things not working anymore? Yeah. I mean, even in just like when we were much smaller, it's— this is a very— every company goes through this. If I were to say something, people would like hear it and like we would be like, you'd only have to really say it once and like people would hear it and like they'd have their thoughts and like they'd question you. They would, they would say like, hey, is this a good— it depends again how you build a culture. But even early on, I made it very clear that like, I do not tolerate people agreeing with me all the time. It is the most frustrating thing I could possibly deal with. And, and I'm basically like, guys, that, that implies that I know all the things and I definitely don't because I've screwed up massively so many times. The problem as you get as a bigger company is that does not come automatically anymore. You basically get folks that like only meet with you once a quarter and like they're very accepting of all your thoughts and ideas and everything. And like you have to like really remind people that they have to take the risk, they have to make mistakes, and they have to be proud of their mistakes. They have to be proud of their mistakes. And, um, the ones that will openly admit that and show that, I will do whatever I can to support them. You have to be really good. At being prideful of your mistakes openly and confidently. That's very hard to build though. You people have to do that with practice. It's a skill. You have to repeat it. But yeah.

Totally. You have to repeat it. And that really leads us right into culture because you have to build a culture where people can be accepting and not just accepting prideful, proud of their mistakes.

Prideful and repeating it and getting them to repeat it. And it's like, yeah, yeah.

So how do you do that? So how have you thought about culture? Again, you started your company when you were pretty young. You really didn't have a lot of leadership experience. And so, then you had to kind of figure it out how to build a culture. How did you think about building a culture? And how would you describe your culture? And what is the sort of special sauce of your culture?

Culture is very tricky. It's kind of like the culture is like the— when you get a bunch of people together, it's kind of like the common shared piece of what everyone believes in. So, It's really tricky. Somebody like myself, I'm highly opinionated and I will be very direct sometimes about what my opinion is. And some people take that as command. Others take that as like, "All right, well, let's dig into it and let's see what we can change and make really good." Culture is really about like— if I'm going to be super opinionated, it's going to be repeated a lot and it's going to happen a lot. What's gonna happen is the people that really believe in the same things as you, they are going to be highly supportive and enthusiastic and evangelical about the concept. Others are gonna be like, this guy is just full of it. This guy has no clue what he's doing. This guy, I don't wanna be near. And they're gonna self-select. So it's a little bit like that. The cruel reality of the world is that when you are, especially in a leadership position, People can treat you pretty polarizing and it's just how it goes. But it's also like the people that like that though, they are really into it. And it's kind of like, that's the whole, like when you build a company, you have to hire like-minded people that all believe in very similar things. Like it's not the exact same thing. It's similar. You want people's experiences and backgrounds to color how they say it, what they're thinking of, how they apply it. But at the end of the day, you will do have core values in a company that need to align to as many people as possible. And if they don't, those people need to like be really thoughtful about like, is this the right place for me? Yeah. The thing is like that assumes that they have confidence that they will find another place that, that they will find that has the right values. So oftentimes like people will like stick it around longer than maybe they want to or should or that kind of thing. But we do our best to be accommodating.

Well, that— accommodating of?

Of just folks that like are, are like almost there in believing the idea and like showing them why it's a really good idea. Like this is why it's important to create great experiences, uh, with your customers. It's like, yes, it's gonna take more time and yes, it is like actually kind of painful at times cuz they just will keep on asking things, but like trust us that it will be a good idea and just do it anyways and keep helping them. And then fast forward then a few weeks, the customer is like enthusiastically amazing about how this rep or salesperson, support person, even engineer sometimes were like, I was so happy that like we got product on the phone and they spoke with me. I was literally asking questions for hours. I couldn't have felt better though. No other company would do that for me. I would like to renew for 3 years without a discount. That sounds wonderful.

Exactly. Can I pay more?

Not quite like that, but yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right.

So, it sounds like what you're saying is you get somebody in the door and they may not be like fully on board. But you want to kind of train them and steep them. What I'm hearing what you said already is actually two things. One is be proud of your mistakes, right? So, that's something about innovation and also a safe space. And then the second, what you just said is give your customers delightful experiences. Are those two values that are important to you and your culture?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We have a variety of other values like around pitching in, which means like to help each other. Even though, like, it's not necessarily like, hey, you're like behind on your things, but you also like probably should help your friend because they're also behind. And like the two of you will find like times to help each other again in the future. And it's around choosing action, like a new value we introduced like maybe 3 years, maybe 4 years ago. Choose action happened because we noticed that when people were in meetings, especially as they got bigger and bigger, as we hired more and more, there's a lot of consensus that happens in these meetings. People don't want to be the odd opinion out, and it's kind of like everyone's kind of agreeing on something pretty non-transformative. So it's kind of like, guys, this is not that ambitious. So Choose Action is about even if everyone's not agreeing on the same thing, you've got to just pick something and go with it. And then it's like, if it goes wrong— there's a few expressions around this, but if, if it goes wrong, just like turn around and do the other thing. Oftentimes what I've found, most of the time both answers are right and you're spending too much time thinking about which one. But like once you start down one road, you can like look at the data to, to see as you have more time to see like, was this right? Do we really think that we should try the other thing or is this most of the win anyways?

Right. How do you think about hiring? Because I know hiring is important to you. So now you have your cultural values you want to hire people into, but also you want to find the right people who are really into it. How do you test for these values and how do you know you have good people and how have you cascaded that inside of your company?

Yeah, that's really tough. This is very tough. Anybody that has a clear answer for this, like, I don't know.

Reach out to Larry.

Reach out to Larry Cohn. Yeah, please let me know. Please let me know. But no, it's, it's tough. Like, it's, it's hiring for values oftentimes is just like you're looking for experiences where they did where they were put in similar situations and how they deal with it. Were they very understanding, accepting of the situation? Were they like, no, we had to write off all those people. And some people will pridefully say that, by the way. So it's like, that is a style. And it's just like, you gotta like really ask them about circumstantial stuff in the past. And that does help a lot. If you're trying to, yeah, if you're trying to filter before, it's kind of like putting them on your website is a very good way as well. That's another like self-selecting way. Where it's like they know what they're walking into and they'll see it. A lot of the values we ask for, it's also, you can just see it in the way they talk and how they present themselves and how they describe things. Like if they're describing, if you ask them a bunch of questions about their previous jobs and like, you only hear really good things and they're not at all talking about what they learned. They don't, they're not volunteering information about how, what they learned and like why that was transformational for them and that kind of thing. It also means a little bit like, well, maybe they don't really like, uh, either really value learning that much to the point where you bring it up, or, uh, maybe they don't value, um, it, it just like iteration. Like, it's just, this is the kind of thing you gotta, you, you see it through the subtle things. Like, people will tell you things that they're really excited and what they believe in. And, uh, and it's like, you gotta see, are those things on the list of things that you're looking for?

Yeah, for sure. And I would also say that just like you said, oh, no one really knows how to hire. And I agree, it's hard to hire Firing is so hard. And then all of my clients, and really all leaders I've ever heard from and dealt with, they are bad at firing. They don't like firing.

They're uncomfortable. Nobody does.

Yeah, nobody does. And yet, yeah. So tell me, have you had an experience where you had to fire someone? Have you had an experience you had to have difficult conversations with somebody?

Oh my God, every single day. Come on. Like, it's— it's— have I had a difficult Experience. Yeah, no, no, I mean, here's the thing. It's, uh, nobody wants to be bad to others. Uh, very— nobody out there is, is this like picture of like, oh yeah, no, they're— my boss just like hated everyone, they just fired them. Like, nobody's like that. Your boss probably had all sorts of weird— so he wasn't meeting his goals, and like, uh, Bob also like told him that he could do it. He doubled down on it believing in Bob. Bob totally let him down. He was really upset. It's just all these situations. People want to be good people. Inherently, people want to be good people. And it's kind of like, it sucks when you have to do the ultimate thing, which is to basically say, hey, I'm sorry, like, it's just not going to work out. And it's kind of like, yeah, it's just not going to work out. There really is a thing about a bad fit versus like a bad person. Like, at first when I heard like bad fit versus bad person, I'm like, all right, cool. This is like a participation award thing where it's like, Like, all right, cool. No, everyone's perfect for everyone. And it's just like, it's a bad fit. You know what? It is actually true. Like now having gone through it, like some people that can be super, super poor fits at one place can be a spectacular fit at another one. And the problem again with folks as they like try to pick their jobs and try to pick the right thing is that they're going to be nervous about, will I ever find the right fit? Like, If you're— if somebody's in a long-term relationship with another person and then it ends and then they're like super sad and it's kind of like, I'll never find somebody like them again. That's the same. It's a similar concern around, I'll never have the fun I did like I did with them. Oh, they had all the things. So this is what happens also with jobs. Like people are like, oh, I really want to hold on to this. No, I really liked what it was. It's like all these things that I really disagree with now. I'm really angry. And it's just like, guys, it's just like after a while it's not a good fit and there's like other places. But I also think that people can over-control on that and just be like, oh, there's a problem here, that's it. And then like that happens too. So I do think the fit is a really big thing, but I also think people have to have an open mind to like, well, what was the real reason behind that? Because it's rarely that someone's trying to be evil and someone just like hates you or someone has like something or other, but awkward conversations are going to be awkward and hard and very difficult. And anything that's difficult will not get done.

Oh my God, that's so true. So much of what you've said, I mean, when you're talking about fit, part of what you're also talking about is the notion that early-stage employees come to early-stage companies. And then, the early-stage company grows into a later-stage company.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, we're now the big company.

Right. Now, suddenly, you're a big company. And it's like not as fun anymore. And it's like not the way I wanted it to be. I know, One time somebody, an employee in one of the companies I worked with, they said about this process they were doing, "That's big company stuff." And it was like 100 people. I was like, "Oh, just kidding." Yeah, yeah.

No, I was going to say, it's like, they're like, "Oh, this is like such a big company." It's like, we're freaking 300 people. I was like, "How many are like 30,000, 100,000 people?" Like, it's like 300 people. Give me a break there. But like, no, it's interesting. It's like people had seen what people had seen. If they have only been at companies of certain sizes and they hear all these terrible things from their friends about things, it's like, yeah, of course they're gonna think like, oh, we've become that thing. But I don't know. I mean, I'm this person too, and I'm gonna be somebody that's gonna be like, oh, I really don't want us to become a big company. But like, I do, because that's obviously success, 'cause now you can like process so much more, you can build so much more, you can ideate, you can have access to so many more creative minds. But also it comes with all the downsides of like, oh, now you have to like structure much more rigidly. Oh, well, this means that, like, I'm not valued anymore. It's like, no, you are, but it's just like, it's more systematized and fair with everybody else. And it's just like, there's pros and cons to everything. And I think that, like, it's been actually really interesting to watch because in the smaller company, I mean, we were definitely that company. It's like, oh yeah, look at that big company. They're just doing all this big company stuff and like blah, blah, blah. We'd use that obviously in hiring. We'd be like, oh, why? You're probably just like a cog in the machine. And they're like, yes, I am a cog in the machine. And now it's like, so now literally same people, but now they're saying like, well, like you're probably just like, you're probably doing this thing, but who even knows if it's going to survive? And like here we have scale. It can go to thousands, millions of people on a daily basis. It can like get everywhere and it's going to, the impact you're going to make is going to be next level. And, and it's just like, Both of these are true. Both of them are completely the opposite of, of the other one. And that's why there's no right answer to anything ever, because it is always the perspective of the people. And that is the reality of the world. No one true opinion is only the answer. I think a lot of people need to realize that their view— there's an opposite person with a, with an equally powerful, if not more powerful, counterpoint to their view. That exists out there. That's highly rational too. That's what I've discovered. The highly rational piece is like really crazy. So yeah. Yeah. In a company you get to see all that.

Totally. Like you get to sort of see all this different, like all the, the, the pettiness and like the, the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The amazing, you know, sort of humanity that, that just circulates. Yes. And what I love also about you and the way you get enthusiastic is like learning. I could tell that you love learning.

Yeah.

But I'm curious, how do you think now about your personal development and your personal learning as you continue to grow as a CEO?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, once you discover that there are one— there is no one opinion on anything, and, and two people, uh, can like battle to the death, uh, about like both of the two opinions not knowing the other side, um, you get to a point where the answer is never to pick one or the other. The answer is to pick either both or neither. And, and that is like, that is the biggest learning somebody can make in, in a, in a position like mine. Um, if you pick one side, the other side will be pissed and they will be convinced that like the other people like manipulated you into it. And there's like this whole like thing going on. Uh, and if you pick their side, well, they're gonna be like, this is totally rational. The other side's gonna do the same thing. In a world where you're picking, uh, both or neither, um, You're basically being like, I totally understand, guys, that this is a really complicated issue, and it's just like, we have to be really focused on what we're going, or where we're going is this, that, and the other. And it's really key because we have this huge opportunity and like, we need to go. And it's just a form of distraction, but also a form of practicality. And like, don't pick a side, because if you do, the other side's gonna basically cause all sorts of chaos. And, um, and it's true, like, people are gonna be people, so I don't know. I think it's like my view is, is it's important that people kind of, um, remain actively thoughtful of the other side and, and acknowledging of the other side too, but like not necessarily picking one particular one, uh, unless they really, really, really need to. Um, otherwise it can get really, really tricky. But yeah.

Yeah, I guess so. But I guess I'm curious what, besides the vaccine, which is a whole other thing, is there a an area that you're thinking of that you could, you can sort of give us an example where you didn't pick a side and that you have everyone focus on the—

Oh, yeah.

What's an example of that? How did you frame that?

So leadership also is about picking a choice and then like moving with it with the whole company. It can happen. Absolutely. Like usually what happens is, um, they usually tell you to like focus on one thing and, and away you go. What we did is something a little like what we do is, is we do the exact thing that they, that they tell you not to, but like it can work. Um, it's just very stressful and a lot of work, which is that you, you pick both. And when you pick both, like for example, we were, we're working on Protect, but at the same time we're also like, hey, this Rooms product might become really something. Hey, by the way, like this Desks product really is starting to be asked for. Now you start like you're saying yes to a lot of things. And when you say yes to a lot of things, it spreads people really thin. You have all these core products that you are making revenue on. That are basically being run by 1, 2 engineers. And the moment you lose one of those engineers over something, now you're down to 1 or 0 and you're kind of like, oh no, we need to get somebody on there. And when you get somebody new on there, they don't know the history. They don't know why the design decisions were made. So there's all sorts of downsides, but it's being able to keep like things moving despite the continuous lack of resource that will keep a company growing and innovating. Ideally, over time, you build better developer tools, you build better systems internally and processes and ways of coping. But it's not easy. It's the harder option to choose both. It's always a harder option to choose both, and away you go.

I love it. Just a couple of more questions. Larry, what do you wish you had known earlier on your journey as an entrepreneur?

What I wish I had known earlier. I mean, I'm happy I didn't know what I know now then. Like, I don't know if I would like start a company if I know everything that I know now. Like, it's just, it's, it's like I knew that I read that these things would happen, but I didn't know. No, like you kind of are like, no, that won't apply to me. Like, they won't happen to me. It will happen to you always, and it'll be graphic and multiple times too. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's just everything about like even just knowing the intricacies. I mean, I remember early days, this was like maybe 6 months into the company. I told some friends that I was like, yeah, I'm starting Envoy. It's like, it's this B2B, like we're doing the visitor management, but like hopefully we can get into much bigger things around automation around the whole office. And they're like, these are my friends from Twitter who are like literally engineers, and they're like, you're gonna have to like, you're gonna have to deal with like salespeople, you're gonna have like marketing, like these are, have you ever done that before? And I'm like, nope, nope, not even. And it's like, they're like, you, we didn't even have that out of the company. And it's like, yeah, but like, yeah, so it's, it's just like, you don't know what you don't know. It turns out they're actually really wonderful people too. But like, and then you can also have a very like weird fragmented view of different departments. But I think it's just like, uh, going through this all, it's really hard because you're like, you just don't expect that you're going to be learning so much. And, and if I knew all what I know now, um, it's just like, whoo-wee, I'd probably talk myself out of a lot more things, that's for sure.

So many founders on this very podcast have said the same thing. Like, Sid from Truepill was like, if I had known about healthcare, I wouldn't have gotten into this, right? Yeah, from TripActions, he was like, if I had known about travel, I would not have gotten into this. And the same with building a company. So I think that's a great That's a great answer.

Ignorance is bliss. Ignorance is bliss. Yeah, it really is. It really is. It's so important. It's so important. Yeah.

Yeah.

But like, yeah, there's always more things you can do. So it's like, uh, there's no shortage of areas of ignorance that, uh, can drive you to do massive change. I love it.

So my last question is, what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journeys to grow into leaders?

Well, my typical— and I get nervous every time I get this question because my answer is always terrible. Um, don't give up. Do not give up because it's just like, literally, this is how companies die. They like, they literally give up and then they stop. Um, the amount of times that Envoy was like in a spot where I'm just like, oh my God, how am I going to get myself out of this? Oh, this is a mess. This is a problem. This is a thing. The amount of times that that has happened and, um, and I was just like, I just didn't stop. Like, there's something that distracted myself, and then I just like went on and kept on doing it. And it's a good thing I did because a day, a week later, it was better. It's— that's the thing about life as well. You just like, you think you're at the bottom of— like, you think it's going badly and, oh, I'm a failure, oh, I can't do these things, oh, blah blah blah. But like, when you do that, you're actually like setting yourself in your mind that like, okay, basically anything is actually going to be good news at that point. The more you convince yourself into the down, down, down, anything is going to be good news. So the moment some good news comes in, you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. It's working now. And like, woohoo, even though it's like one quarter where it used to be, but it's amazing. So as long as you can ride that and truly genuinely appreciate it, you're going to be in a good spot. So that's basically it. It's kind of like Don't give up because like, uh, basically the smallest of things are actually going to be really good news. You just got to wait a few more, sometimes even just days, just like wait a couple more days and it's going to be good. Or like if you've just had a streak of like just really bad stuff for weeks and weeks, like just make some big changes that like either way you're going to shut down, so you might as well do something like radical. And then it's like, see what happens. And, uh, and you would— you'd be surprised. I'm like, hey, wait a second. This might be working. And then away you go.

I love it. Don't give up, Larry. You're like a cup of coffee. I, I, whenever I get tired now, I'm just gonna listen to this podcast.

You're smiling. That's just the weirdest analogy. I love it. I love it.

I love it. I love talking to you. Thank you so much. Your insights can be so valuable for all founders. I really appreciate it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, no worries. And I, I'm happy to help anyone in any way. This is This is great. Thanks for putting this on.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.