#35: Padma Warrior, Founder and CEO of Fable — The reverse journey of grown-up to start-up, what ...

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. Welcome back to From Startup to Grownup, and it's such a joy to welcome Padma Warrior to the podcast. Padma is a legend in Silicon Valley. She was the CTO of both Motorola and Cisco, and then the CEO of NIO, an electric car company. She's also served on many public company boards, including currently Microsoft and Spotify. Padma is now an entrepreneur.

She's the founder of Fable, a social platform for people to create book and podcast clubs so they can share stories together. You can check them out at fable.co. So Padma had a reverse journey, like from grownup to startup, and now she's growing up inside of her startup all over again. She's such a mature and wise leader. So it was fantastic to hear all of her insights. We talk about what she had to learn and unlearn when she went from being inside of a large company to being a founder, and in particular, letting go of what she calls acquired helplessness. We talk about how she personally handles hiring as a founder and specifically how hands-on she is, particularly since she's coming from places with such iconic brands and now has a new startup which is still building its brand. And she gives some fantastic advice about how to get your initial hires on board.

We also talk about the specific rituals Padma invented in her company to build culture, why she bans talk about work inside of her Fika ritual, and what it actually means to bring your whole self to work. It's not exactly what you think. We also discuss how she has grown over the years as a leader and how she made the shift herself from problem solver to someone who helps other people solve problems. Padma also shares the decision-making framework she uses in her staff meetings. This is an incredible conversation with a wise and mature leader, and you're going to love hearing all her insights and practical advice. So please enjoy this fantastic conversation with Padma Warrior of Fable. Padma, welcome to the show. I am so happy to have you here today.

Thank you, Alisa Cohn, for having me on your show.

I'm so excited to dive in. You know, you are a first-time founder, but you're an incredibly accomplished leader. You led large teams at Motorola and Cisco as, as the CTO. CTO of both companies. You were actually an entrepreneur, and then you left to be the CEO of NIO, which was a Chinese-based electric car startup, which went public in 2018, a very successful IPO. And now you're a founder yourself. So I'm so curious, was this part of your master plan?

Yeah, I guess I kind of have the reverse journey to most people. I sort of grew my career in the corporate world and then decided to jump into the startup world. I think maybe— I don't think— no, definitely not a master plan. I don't know if I ever have a— had a master plan for my career. I think I'm a big believer when opportunities show up, you should go after them and embrace those opportunities. And that's sort of been my philosophy for my career growth in the corporate world. But the reason I think I was attracted to the startup world and become an entrepreneur myself was I was always interested, as you call it, you know, the word intrapreneur, I was always interested in creating new things, even inside of large companies. But the last 3 years of my career at Cisco, I was Chief Technology Officer, as well as the Chief Strategy Officer. So in my role as the Chief Strategy Officer, I was investing on behalf of Cisco. So I would meet a lot of entrepreneurs and founders with the intent of investing investing in their companies and many times actually acquiring those companies. I was doing all of the acquisitions on behalf of Cisco. I think that's probably what created this itch for me to go do something on my own, just meeting a bunch of founders, people who are very successfully scaling their companies. I think it's sort of like when you're a small company, you want to grow up to be a large company. When you're a large company, you're jealous of smaller companies and their agility, right? And so, I started to spend so much time with founders of companies that I wanted to be one myself. I just felt like it must be so satisfying to look at a need in the market and try to create a solution to fill that need.

Yeah, that makes total sense. And as you just said, you know, small companies wanna be big companies and maybe vice versa. And my podcast is really about the, from startup to grownup, is about the journey from founder to leader. And in this case, we're talking about really the journey from leader to founder in so many ways. And I'm just curious as a starting point, Are there things that you had to learn or unlearn? How long, first of all, has Fable been around? And just curious what you've had to learn or unlearn.

Yeah, so Fable has been around a little over 2 years, but I was thinking about the space probably 6 to 8 months before that. So I've personally been invested, I would say, as many founders are in the mission for the company. Many times before you jump in and start a company, you're thinking about that problem space, right? Maybe for a year, sometimes many years. So in my case, it was roughly 6 to 8 months. So I would say I've been kind of, quote unquote, been the founder of Fable almost 3 years, like 2 years officially, 1 year unofficially, just working, doing my own research, etc. Have I had to unlearn things and relearn things? Definitely. I think there is a distinctive difference in some of the leadership skills between leading very large teams. At Cisco, I had 26,000 team members that I was leading. And so that's a massive, massive organization. I think the key things you have to unlearn when you go from being in a large company, whether you're at the C-level or at any level inside a large company, to starting something on your own is the fact, you know, I sometimes call this acquired helplessness. In a bigger company, you have a large support ecosystem. That helps you take care of many things, right? Like, you know, you have an assistant who schedules meetings for you. You have a way, you know, I was traveling a lot at Cisco to meet with customers, but I would have a team that would take care literally of my every need. And you don't have that. You completely lose that when you go to a startup, you're on your own. So you basically feel helpless in the first few months. That's why I call it acquired helplessness. It's not that you don't know how to do this thing. It's not that I don't know how to schedule my own meetings, but you are so used to certain things that you take for granted in a bigger company. So I think fundamentally, the biggest thing you have to get used to is letting go of that acquired helplessness, rolling up your sleeves and digging into what is important, right? The second thing I think oftentimes people in a big company forget, you know, the big companies often give you a halo with the brand that they bring, right? Like when you work at a Cisco or a Microsoft or a Google or Alphabet, Meta, any of these companies, that brand, allows you to recruit talent and, you know, people come to work for the company as much as they're coming to work for you. In a startup, you are the one making the calls. You are the one convincing people that they should leave big comfortable companies and take the risk with you. It takes an inordinate amount of personal energy to hire great talent. And I think that is a key factor. I think founders often underestimate how much time and energy it will take. Like, I don't delegate hiring Fable to my recruiter. I personally make calls. I am there sourcing candidates as much as my recruiter is. I take the first call. I convince people, uh, because people are coming because they believe in you as the founder, right? Now they believe in you. There is no brand security around that. Um, I think two of those are the biggest, I would say, for me, aha moments. It's sort of like realizing, hey, if I want to build a team, I need to own this and I need to build a team. Because people are going to come because I'm convincing them in the mission of the company. I'm convincing them that together we're going to make this and build Fable into a big company and a great company. Whereas in large companies, again, they're coming to work for the brand as much as they're coming to work for you. Sometimes people underestimate that, I think.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I hear your point. I mean, you know, for a big company, they come to work for the brand in many ways. Could you describe sort of the way you approach that because, you know, again, you were at large companies, people came for the brand, you hired people, and then in your first early days of Fable, when you had to convince people to join you, you of course have reputation, but nonetheless, it's still a risky startup. How did you actually approach that sell? Like, what advice do you have for people to approach that sell?

Yeah, I, like I said, make it personal. It's your job. You know, if you're the founder, you're the one building this team, it's your team. So don't delegate it. Don't go get recruiters. I mean, they can help with the process, but ultimately you have to own it. Make it personal. I would like literally sit on LinkedIn and reach out to people. And sometimes I would get messages on LinkedIn saying, is this really Padmasree Warrior or is this somebody posting using your name? Is this spam? Reply back saying, LOL, it's really me, like call me. So yeah, I would actually make it my business and a priority. You know, obviously I started Fable right around COVID, so I wasn't meeting people in person, but I would recommend as much as possible have that initial first contact. And I was doing it virtually on Zoom and other platforms like that. And, you know, I think you have to connect with that person, like why should they leave the comfort of a great job in a big company and come take a risk with you, right? So articulating what 'What made you do that?' I would tell people what made me leave a big company. I could have been CEO for any large company. Why did I do this? Because I believe in the mission. I believe this is a problem that really needs to be solved. Being very straight with people and letting them know, look, there is risk. Of course there's risk. I can't afford to pay you as much as a bigger company will pay you. But, you know, together we can make this a large company. And perhaps at the end of the at the end of the rainbow, there's a big pot of gold, right? And so it is sort of like that. Mission is very important, to articulate what the mission of the company is. Being really honest and upfront and pointing out the risks as much as possible so that people can use their own judgment and weigh the risk. And constantly staying in connection, right? Like if someone says, "No, I'm not ready to leave right now," I always reach out after 3 months and saying, "Hey, how are things going?" You know, in some cases I've hired people a year later, you know, because they weren't ready a year ago, but never be, just be, especially if they're great talent you want on your team, don't say no as a no and shut the door. I think I always maintain a relationship and say, because you never know sometimes, no, I mean, why did I leave a big company to go do a startup, right? You know, sometimes in big companies, things become very mechanical and people are looking for that change and a fresh start. Start, that's the opportunity. That's the time you should be there for them. The other tip I would give is when someone says, no, I'm not ready to leave company XYZ, I always say, that's great, but do you have recommendations? Do you know somebody in your network that would fit a profile like yours that you could introduce me to? You won't believe how many, like, word-of-mouth referrals I have gotten where I ended up working hiring those people, uh, because like I think sometimes when people say no to you, they feel obligated to help almost. They feel guilty. And so I usually take them up on that and say, hey, like, do you have others you think, you know, that they would be ready? And, you know, even if they can't come full-time, will they be able to come as an advisor initially? So there's various techniques that I use to build a team. But yeah, I can honestly say now we're about 29 people. I have literally interviewed or met all of them and been part of the process, if not initiated the process myself.

Right. Wow. I love what you said, especially like don't underestimate the value of keeping in touch. People say no, and then, hey guys, everybody, life changes. And so that no now might be yes in 6 months or even in a year or however many years later. And I think that people underestimate how important it is to just be in touch and practices to be in touch. I'm curious, what are your practices to stay in touch with folks which aren't like Are you ready now? Are you ready now? Are you ready now? Like more, more organic.

Yeah. Look, I think all human beings want to be helped. Right. We all need help in some ways. So rather than say, are you ready now? Can you come help me? I always reach out and say, how are things going? Do you want to just meet for coffee? How can I help you? Do you want a sounding board? You know, somebody who's neutral to talk to you. Sometimes, you know, it doesn't work out. And the other powerful thing about staying in touch, maybe they won't come to work for you, that's okay, but they're part of your network now, right? Like as a founder, you have to continuously build your network and, you know, continuously keep people, uh, keep people sort of like in your ecosystem and stay in their ecosystem, right? Like sometimes I'll say, you know, a lot of people ask me for advice on boards. And so even if they're not ready to make a career change, I'll reach out and say, how can I help you make you know, make decisions in your life. So don't always reach out to people selfishly, I would say. Reach out to people and offer your time that you can help them. And, you know, over time that comes back, like they'll pay back, right? It'll pay back for you.

Yeah, totally true. Textbook. I love it. Now, before we get too much further, I want to also just talk about what Fable actually is and what your founding insight was for Fable. So, can you talk about what Fable does and why this seems like the right thing right now?

Yeah, so Fable, at its core, is a social platform for stories. So, bringing content and social together, right? So, we started with books and book clubs. So, it's a digital platform for people to create a book club, join a book club. We are now expanding to Pod Club. So you could listen to this podcast and have a Pod Club on Fable, you know—

I love it.

The Startup to Grown-Up Pod Club. And you would listen to each episode and discuss that. So we just launched that. So the idea is like any form of story content that you consume, we are a platform for communities to discuss that content. And so we focus on interest graph based on, you know, what you listen to, this kind of podcast. Here's another one that may be of interest to you. Padma mentioned this book in this podcast. She has a book that you may want to read with others who are reading that. So that's sort of like what we focus on. But the main reason I started Fable, my motivation in starting Fable 2, 3 years ago, whenever I started to look into how can we apply technology to help people with our mental wellness. If you kind of think about it, mental wellness is on the decline globally. So not, we don't focus on mental illness and wellness doesn't mean just the absence of illness, right? So mental wellness is things like anxiety, stress, depression, loneliness, feeling a lack of self-worth. All these things are trending in the wrong direction, literally across every age demographic, income demographic, regional, globally, in every region in the world. It's all started happening before COVID and COVID unfortunately just added to the problem. So I was trying to think about, you know, hey, what is the equivalent of walk 10,000 steps a day for mental wellness? If you remember, the physical fitness movement essentially started a decade ago or more with walk 10,000 steps a day. Simple metric. We could keep track of it. You know, an alarm went off if I did not walk 10,000 steps, and I would go out and exercise. You know, today many of us have made some something about physical fitness into our daily routine. What is that simple equivalent of that for mental wellness? And as I was researching that, a lot of research is now surfacing where people talk about if you read 30 minutes a day, it's really beneficial for our mental health. Read or listen to a story or even watch a story, right? Like if you're consuming a story, so to speak, because our brain then puts us inside that story. You know, when you're listening to this podcast, you are listening to Padma's story told through Alisa's eyes. And, you know, it's sort of like you're immersing yourself in this conversation. If you're reading a book, you're connecting with the characters. All these things help us unplug from the stress of the moment. So yeah, I was like trying to think about how do we encourage people to consume stories for 30 minutes a day. And, you know, sometimes people say, I don't know what to read. I don't know what to listen to. There's so many podcasts, so many books out there. So we curate, we make recommendations, we bring communities together so that we connect you with your interest graph. So that's what Babbel is. So essentially a social platform for stories.

I love it. I love the— I didn't know that about reading supporting mental wellness, but it totally makes sense because you immerse yourself or to your point, stories. You immerse yourself in someone else's story and it both gives you, I think, almost like meditation, time away from your own issues, but also you just get inspiration from other people in the way they're handling a situation or from a beautiful story if it's fiction or a conversation people are having. So I really appreciate what you're saying. And I'm also curious about the community aspect. My observation, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, My observation is that communities are having a moment. I had Carolyn Childers, the CEO and co-founder of Chief, which is about communities of senior executive women. There are many other communities being built right now, whether it's virtual or in-person. Are you seeing that trend, and how does that feed into your sort of points at Fable?

Yeah, definitely. I definitely feel there's a big power in communities, and I call them micro-communities. I think we've somehow— I think social media social media has twisted the definition of what a community is, right? With metrics like how many followers do you have? And, you know, sort of like this notion of an influencer, that's not really a community in my definition. Like a community is really where you feel safe to discuss things and it doesn't need to be a million followers, right? Like you can have great powerful communities with thousands of people or even tens of thousands or even like 3 people. And, you know, in our case, I also feel communities are important because can, if we can create a safe place where people can share their experiences, we learn from each other, we offer insights to each other. It also takes the tension away when we disagree with each other, right? Because especially if you're in a community that is doing an activity like reading or like listening to a podcast, you're discussing even complex things like racial injustice, social injustice, in the context of what you're reading or what you're listening versus a personal attack. Like, why do you believe that? Why do I believe that? It just feels like right now there is just so much discord in the society because we don't agree with each other and we lose sight of the fact that there are many things we actually agree with each other on. And so I feel like there is also power in these communities if they are safe havens for people to express opinions in the context of what they're reading, watching, or listening, right? And so we, I totally believe in that. I think this is something personally I saw the power of communities when I went through my own educational experience as an engineer. You know, I survived my engineering school and then my career in tech because I was always part of a community that offered me support. When we are talking about activity-based communities though, like what we create on fable, it's different from your social circle, right? Like, my best friend may not like science fiction, and so they will be less inclined to read science fiction with me and discuss science fiction, whereas a community that is a big fan— all, all fans of science fiction is what I'm drawn to when I'm reading science fiction. So we call it interest-based communities, and we focus on your interest graph, like how can we connect you with other people that share your interests rather than just, quote unquote, your friends.

Right. I love it. So then it kind of expands out also who you're connected to.

Mm-hmm.

And then helps you also add to community. But then I appreciate very much your emphasis on safe space. And I know that inside of Fable, inside of your startup, culture is really important to you. So I think that's really interesting because many startup founders would say, yeah, yeah, culture is the thing I'm gonna do later after I've been successful or after we can get our arms around the business model. But you're 29 people, you're a pretty, very new startup. Why is culture so important to you? Was there a moment when you realized, "I need to make sure I start Fable with a certain kind of culture"?

Yeah, very great question. And, you know, by the way, we debated a lot on when should we focus on culture. And we decided, I think, when we had 3 people is when we really wanted to define what we want the culture to be. And we still, you know, I think as people join, We tweak what is important to us. Culture is one of those very nebulous things, right? Like, what is a company culture? It's hard to describe it. My view is that culture is at the intersection of what you value as a company, what your norms are, and what your beliefs are, right? And each of these is different. Value is something that guides your actions. Norms are, beliefs are something that we consider to be true. Or false. And so stating those— and norms are behaviors, how we interact with each other, how we treat each other, what words do we use when we disagree with someone. So all three are important. So I've done a— I think we've spent quite a lot of time defining what are our values, what are our norms, what are our beliefs, and try to keep that list very short and sweet, like only 3 to 5 things we list under each. And culture really sits at the intersection of all of these things. So why is it important sooner versus later as a founder in a startup? Because I think these things help you attract talent, especially these days when people are completely reevaluating what work means and what work role plays, what role work plays in our lives. Definitely we're all going through that reevaluation, right? Articulating what the value is, what values are for you and what your culture is, is really important in hiring great talent. And also knowing that they're a match, gonna be a match for you or not, right? Like simple things, like for us, we are a remote distributed team because we started in COVID. I don't ever envision having a physical office. We are completely flexible, which means we have to trust people that they're gonna do the work, what we expect them to do. At a time that works for them. No one's watching, right? Like, no one's watching you. There is no checking in, checking out. Like, people are literally working whenever it's convenient for them. And at the same time, you know, one of our values is trust us to trust you. And so that is something we write and we expect people who join Fable to be self-driven, you know, self-motivated. So those are, I think culture will then influence who you hire and how you hire, what lens they look at you. I often encourage people to do as much diligence on a company's culture because one of the mistakes, whether it's a large company or small company, when you're deciding on whether I want to take this job offer or join this company, spend— we, all of us, spend an inordinate amount of time negotiating salary, compensation, looking at benefits, Companies do reference checks on you, but are you doing reference checks on the company? Are you checking and, you know, looking at who's on their management team, who are their investors, who's on their board? What did they say their culture is? Do they live that culture? So I think for me, for all these reasons, culture should be something founders should define and embrace and live very early on, whatever it is that you value. And by the way, I think Follow-up to that culture is what are some rituals you do in the company that bring that culture to life, right? Like you have to have things that are ritualistic that you do every week or every month where people actually can see that that culture is lived through that ritual.

Yes. Oh my gosh. Everything you just said, I want to double-click on so many of these things. I first want to double-click on what you said about kind of values and then living your values. So, like, trust us to trust you. I guess I'm curious, what's an example of how specifically you would test for that? And then how does that play out day in and day out at Fable?

Yeah, so trust us to trust you. Like I said, we are a distributed team. We don't really have specific work hours. Like, we don't say everyone has to be online at 8:00 AM Pacific or whatever, because we— people work in different time zones, you know. So we never have boundaries on when people have to be online or working. We are very flexible of— and with the other thing we do is our calendars are visible to everyone. Everyone's calendar is visible to everyone else, and we encourage people to put personal errands they have to do or things they have to do on their calendar. So for example, you know, our head of product puts pick up kids on his calendar. He has small children and he needs to go pick them up from, you know, from their care situation. That's totally fine. We don't, you know, pass judgment on that. But we know that they're back working whenever they can be. And so my calendar is completely visible. I put things like I have a Pilates class from, you know, 5 to 6. So I block that time. And so people can see that. And so this is one way we say, trust us to trust you. And we trust you, right? Like we trust you to get the work done. We trust that we also don't track people's vacation. We just pay people. And again, that also is another example of trusting people to take whatever time they need to take off, but then get their work done. So far we've never had an issue. People are, I mean, I feel very very confident that in our culture is very positive. People are very invested in the success of the company. And actually, you will be surprised, the more you trust people, the more they raise up themselves up. Like, people as human beings, we always— our expectations of ourselves are a lot higher than anybody else's expectations of us, especially when it comes to our work, right? Um, no one wakes up in the morning wanting to do a bad job. And so I think These are things that we are examples of how we live our value of trust us to trust you.

I love that. How do you test for that in the interview? How do you know this person is going to be a trust us to trust you kind of person?

Oh, this is such a great question. I always tell people when I interview them, I'm not hiring you for your experience. I'm hiring you for your expertise. There's a big difference. It sounds subtle, but there's a big difference in the two. You know, when you're hiring, when you focus on people's experience, you're looking at that resume. And so which company, how long they were there, many. And the reason I say I focus on expertise and growth mindset, those are the two things I focus on. You know, expertise means there is a core skill that is transferable and you will bring that core expertise to whichever job you take and whichever company you go to. Typically, especially larger companies, and I learned this for myself too, the skillset you accumulate to be a success in a large company oftentimes is not transferable to another large company. Because you figured out how to, how to play the system, how to work in that system of a big company. And that may or may not work in another big company. And you have to completely relearn that. It definitely may not work in a startup, but your expertise does. And so your core expertise, whether it's a functional functional expertise, or just even leadership expertise. My expertise is hiring great talent, you know, for instance. And I can bring that whether I'm at Cisco or at Neo or wherever I am, right? Like, I really— I feel that's my super strength. Uh, so I ask people, what's your expertise? When I'm talking to them, what is the one or two things that you feel are— you're, you're so good at that you will apply that whichever company you go to. The other thing I ask people is, are you self-sufficient? Are you one of those people that needs constant positive reinforcement or constant feedback? Because we are, we're all distributed, you know, you're expected to like figure things out and be resourceful. So I, I ask them to give me examples of how did you solve a problem where, where you were resourceful about something and you figured out this door closed, so I'm going to by that door. Because in a startup, one of the other things founders have to often get used to is hearing a lot of nos, right? Like, we get a lot of nos from customers, from investors, from people we are trying to recruit. And you just have to build up a thick skin for that, and you have to be resourceful. So I often ask people, like, this growth mindset of I'm curious, I want to learn. And I usually don't hire people that just want to do one thing. Like, I, you know, people I hire Typically, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm okay doing this. I'm okay doing that." You know, the person who leads our talent and recruiting is also helping with our marketing efforts. So, it's sort of like, you know, can we stretch you in different ways and throw things at you? Those are the kinds of things I look for when I hire people.

Yeah. And it sounds like you really, really value people, to your point about growth mindset, but also who want to be involved in a bunch of different things. Is that going to change? Again, you've had experience at, you know, Cisco. Motorola, large companies. And honestly, inside of those companies, you said you had 26,000 reports or something. You don't want everyone doing everything. That's actually a problem, right? So, when do you think that's gonna shift for you?

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I often say, I think the tipping point is around 1,000 employees when you get to that stage. And the reason I pick that number is like, I'm a big believer the first 100 people hire the next 1,000. People, right? Like the first 100 people matter a lot in the company. And, you know, you want these people to be really invested, fit with your culture, big doers, thinkers, resourceful, because they're going to hire 10 people each, let's say. And they know— so they— if you have— if your first 100— if in your first 100, uh, hires you've had 20% failure rate, then it'll propagate. And so you have to be really careful. Um, but when you get to about 1,000 people, then you're getting to a scale where you need a lot more process and structure. You'll have chaos if everyone's doing everything, and you need to define, uh, swim lanes, and you need to make sure your people are going deep rather than broad, right? And so, uh, yeah, my rule of thumb is about 1,000 people. Good.

I love that you have an answer to that.

Yeah, but there is— I do feel at certain point you have to figure out, like, okay, how do we now know to put more structure, more process?

Right, absolutely. So you also talked about rituals, and I know that you have this ritual I want to dive into. It's called fika. Can you tell us first of all what fika is and why you think it's so powerful?

Yeah, yeah. Fika is actually a word. It's a Swedish coffee ritual, and I think I read about it somewhere where basically in Sweden it's very popular. Apparently people get together for coffee, they bring pastries, and other things, and they just meet and talk about things. And so I read about it and I offered it as a way for us in the early days when we were all in lockdown and no one was going anywhere. That was when we were hiring people. And, you know, we were maybe about 10 people at that table at that time. So we initially started it as a coffee break, like, you know, stick a break, bring coffee, tea, whatever beverage you like, and let's just chat. And it was on Zoom and we would get together and talk about things. And in your first 2 weeks, it was weekly. And, you know, we picked a time, pick a time that works for most time zones. But then I noticed the attendance started to drop off because people didn't want one more Zoom meeting or Microsoft Teams meeting to be on, right? Like, they were like, we're maxed out already. So we said, okay, we have a book club, you know, in Fable. We use book clubs and reading as a break time. And we were reading books together and talking there. But we also wanted to complement that with something else because for engineers who are working on the thing, book club was also felt like work and they wanted something different. So we went to a, we kind of took the word Fika and morphed it. And you know, what we do today is each person in the company, we do it every week. Every person in the company gets a turn to host it. And we're still a small company. We're about 29. People. And the host picks a topic for discussion. And these are fun non-work topics, right? You know, so we talk about things like, what are you hoarding in your pantry that you should throw away, that you have not? And what does that say about you? A very popular topic. I know we all are hoarding something in our pantry that we should throw away, and for some reason we don't. So it became very popular. People bring show and tell. It allows you to be yourself, right? Laugh and, you know, be funny with each other, tease each other. Let's like just to get to know the person behind the job and the job title. So very popular. We have, you know, we have intense topics like, was there, was there ever, you know, something where you went through grief but you came out of it a stronger person? There can be deep topics like that, or it can be a super fun topic. Another super fun topic we had was what was What's one exotic thing you ate because of peer pressure that you thought was weird? And did you like it? Would you eat it again or not? So yeah, people come up with great questions and it can be anything related to music, art, but the one rule is it's not necessarily work. We don't talk about work. And so I'm a big believer, by the way, culture is built by allowing for spaces and people to discuss non-work things at work, right?

Yeah, I want to dig into that because plenty of the founders that I work with, and I shall not name them, they can barely say, "How was your weekend?" because they're so eager to get to the work, right? So I was so curious about this ritual because you're talking about non-work things for an hour with the entire company. And I'm sure that'll change. It'll be interesting to see how that changes as you grow. But what is the— make the case that there's value in that hour.

Yeah, there is huge value. By the way, this is something I did even at Cisco, something like this. I'm a big believer, whatever you— whether it's FICA or Cisco, I used to do something called birthday breakfast. And so because I had like a team of 26,000 people each month, like, for example, August coming up, you know, everyone who has a birthday in August out of my team of 26,000, quote unquote, it would be breakfast for people in Silicon Valley, but other people in different time zones would join virtually. And the only rule was you cannot talk about work. So I would, in that case, I was using this technique of tell me one thing about you, introduce yourself, not with your job title, but a fun fact. So people would say things like, oh, I'm a mom, or I just had a baby, or I play in a rock band, or I climbed this mountain last summer, or I went on a road trip across Europe. It was just like amazing. And it was interesting how people's eyes would light up. And, you know, again, I did it for an hour and it was something I did every month at that time at Cisco. At Neo, we had something called team time where again, it was every Friday afternoon, different teams would take turns and they would host it. And it was like very fun activities like treasure hunt inside the company or actually painting, drawing on the walls. You know, one, one time we just did like graffiti on the walls and creating art. Um, I, I'm a big believer that you bond as people, you connect as people beyond your job when you get to know the person behind the job. It's interesting, right? Even in life When we ask, if you introduce me, you introduce me as Padma, founder and CEO of Fable. It's fascinating. I introduce myself as like, hi, I'm Padma, I'm the founder of Fable. I don't say I love art, I love dance, I love to cook. There's just so many other things that make us human. And I feel, I feel it's really important. And this is not a new thing with me. I have done this throughout my career leading teams.

And part of what you've also talked about is bringing your whole self to work. And I'm, again, I'm curious about what that means. I mean, it sounds like part of that is about what that means is you can work on your own time zone and you can pick up your kids from school and put it right on the calendar and do graffiti together. I'm wondering what has ever happened that has kind of made that like too much of yourself? Because for example, Some of myself might be, I'm kind of grumpy in the morning, right? And I can be a little, you know, terse with people, or not even a little terse with people, or I'm going to bring my whole self to work. And the way my whole self shows up is I like to control everything, for example. So how do you distinguish feeling safe and belonging, bring your whole self at work, and also recognizing that we're in a workplace?

Yeah, I, I, I don't think, by the way, being your whole self, bringing your whole self to work should not be excuse for bad behavior regardless, right? I think that is something, just being courteous. And, you know, I'm grumpy in the mornings too, so I don't schedule early morning meetings. I start my day at 9 while, like, I'm awake and I'm ready to be present. But people know that, and they usually don't book things on my calendar because we have people on the East Coast, and they're like, okay, we get to focus time because Padma is not online yet. But I work late in the evening, and And so I think those are things that in fact helps people. If you know your true self, you know, people know that she's grumpy in the morning. So that's great. We won't, you know, we won't work with her in that time slot, or they need to stop working at 4 o'clock because they have children and they need time to spend with their families. So don't bother them at that time. That actually helps. I think what I mean by bringing your whole self to work is creating an atmosphere where people can belong. I think I'm a big believer that conversations have to move past DE&I. Diversity, equity, inclusion are not enough. And we've learned that with the MeToo movement, with the Black Lives Matter movement. If you don't create an environment where people feel like they truly belong, meaning they can be who they are, just including them, it doesn't help. You may have a seat at the table, but I'm expected to be be somebody different. You know, I may be brown, but just because you've given me a seat at the table, you're still expecting me to be a white person. That's not helping me belong, right? I think you have to welcome me for everything I bring. You know, I think that's what I mean by being authentic and bringing your whole self. I think this is something I realized early part of my career. You know, when I started my career, I'm from India originally. I grew up in India. After graduate school, I started my career in the semiconductor industry where there were very, very few women. I was actually told how I should dress to come to work, like, you know, just wear grays and blacks, don't wear color. I grew up in a culture that was full of color. And to me, that just felt like I had to be a different person when I went to work. Put me on guard right away. And, you know, I think that is, in that case, you're starting your work in a defensive posture to begin with. I, you know, for me, bringing your whole self to work is remove those artificial things. It doesn't matter. How does it matter if you wear pink or brown when you come to work and not black or white? These are some arbitrary rules that get set sometimes that we don't need to have.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'd love to double-click if I could on what you just said, which is, I'm a brown person, so give me a seat at the table, but then you expect me to act like a white person. That's fascinating. Besides the dress, which I understand we sometimes have these norms around muted colors or something, or even, I don't know, pants and skirts and whatever. Is there more you could say about what it means to be a brown person expected to act like a white person at the table?

Yeah, I think, you know, the words we use, the tone we use, the posture we take, all these things, right, like are different culturally for people where if you're brown or Black or Hispanic. Hispanic person, you may use different words. And I think we are trained sometimes to— I was trained, like, I'll use personalize this, right? Like, when I was growing in my career, I was trained to like speak louder. You know, you're a small person, stand up and make yourself big when you're saying things. I was like, why? You know, I think I should— I'm small and I'm brown and I have something important to say, and people should not expect me to to behave in a different way just to be listened to. I think those are all things that I feel sometimes they're unspoken rules inside companies that we need to break away if we truly want to create a culture of belonging.

Yeah, so powerful. And I think, you know, now more than ever, belonging is just literally a competitive advantage. Like literally you need to feel like you belong in an environment because that's going to make you want to stay there. And at a time where the war for talent is real, I think that's super important.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

You also talked about— I want to talk about the transition into leadership. You said that the biggest transition for leaders is going from problem solving to helping people solve problems, which I love that. And I'm curious, was there a moment that you made that shift? Because you, like everybody, started in your career solving problems, right? That's what we do as individual contributors. Was that always natural for you, or did you have to make a leadership shift, a mindset shift, to turn into the somebody who helps people solve problems?

No, I definitely had to make a mindset shift, for sure. And it was a hard mindset shift. I think this is maybe especially harder for technical leaders and engineers. I'm an engineer, and engineering is all about logically solving problems. Jobs, right? That's what you get trained to do. And so when I first became a manager— and, you know, another interesting thing that happens is you get promoted because you're a great engineer, uh, you become a manager because you're a great engineer, or you're a great individual contributor, therefore you are now a manager— and you have no clue what managing and leading people means, which is what happened to me when I first got promoted. I really didn't know what leading people really was. I just thought it It was because it just meant I had to be a better engineer and like I had to go fix everybody's problems and solve all their problems. And soon I realized, you know, I was a project leader, I think at the time, leading about, you know, 10 engineers or so in my first leadership role. And I was very young in my career. I became a people leader after 2 years after working. So I was like 20-something. I had no clue. I was out of college, worked for 2 years and became a project leader with 10 engineers in my project. And I was like trying to do everybody's job for them. You quickly realize people stop thinking when you do that because they think, oh, Padma's gonna tell us what to do and do it anyway, why bother? And you soon get burnt out and obviously you don't know all the answers. You know, they know things better than you, that's why they're on your team. And so yeah, I learned it the hard way. I just like suddenly realized people would not be present. They would show up to meetings and be doing other things. Contributing, and I was like, what's happening? I'm a terrible leader. I'm not inspiring them. I suddenly realized, maybe I'm not asking them for their ideas. I'm not asking them to say, here's the problem. I don't know what the best way to solve it is. Could we hear some ideas from you? And then letting them go do that. That's the first thing I learned. And then as I progressed in my career, I learned also the other thing that's important. Tip number 2 is giving credit away. Right? Like, let people take credit even if it's your idea. Sometimes people get hung up, especially when they're younger in their career track, or you're a founder for the first time. You will like get hung up like, hey, this was my idea, and like, so-and-so, why are you taking credit for it? Doesn't matter. I think if you actually make it their idea, they'll run with it, right? Like, they'll go make— jump through hoops to make that work. So I think those are the two things I learned very early in which helped me transition from being a great individual contributor to hopefully being a better leader. I'm still learning.

I'm sure. I hear you. Did you learn that yourself? You had like this— you sort of woke up one day and said, "I know, I'm not asking them for their point of view," or something? Or did someone helpfully give you advice? Or was there a difficult feedback conversation you had with an interested and supportive manager?

No, I think I learned it myself. I kind of figured out because I noticed people, I mean, like I said, I learned it the hard way. People were checking out. Like I would have staff meetings, project reviews, and people would show up but not be really engaged. You know, I would ask a question and they would be like, oh, I don't know. I didn't own that. So I'm not sure. And so I realized like, nobody really cares about this project except me. And I went home like, and you know, I think I was literally in tears. I was like, What's going on? They hate me. And of course they didn't hate me. They loved me as a person, but they were like, okay, well, you're going to tell us what to do anyway. Why should we? You know, in fact, they thought they would get punished if they came up with ideas, right? Like, so it was sort of like a defensive mechanism, I think, now in retrospect. I was just trying to think, how would I react if my boss like just told me, like literally gave me a checklist of do, do, do, do, do? You know, I would think like, to put forth an idea would be a bad thing. So I actually completely switched. To this day, I tell people I never mandate anything. I don't dictate things. I do make decisions, but I'm very much a— I'm not a hub-and-spoke leader. I'm very much a collaborative leader that I, you know, state what the problems are, make sure everyone's involved, everyone gets a say, and then I decide. You know, I think people often confuse decisiveness with dictating things. You can be decisive and still be very collaborative.

And is that just about bringing everyone into the problem and also letting them know we're not voting on this, but I do want to hear your point of view? Is that a version of how you do that?

Exactly. So for example, the way I run my staff meetings at Fable, now I create an agenda. It's an open doc that's open to all of my staff. They can add agenda items. I can take things off. And everyone gets to talk about, like, so if it's an editorial issue, the head of product gets to weigh in, uh, our— my CTO gets to weigh in, or even if it's an engineering problem, editorial has input on that, you know. So everyone gets to input things. And the way I structure so that it's not chaos again, um, my staff meetings, I divide the staff meeting into Inform, brainstorm, and decide. And so inform is like, hey, I'm just letting you know this is happening. I don't need you to do anything. I don't need you to vote on anything. Brainstorm, or discuss as we call it, is we're discussing this. I'm looking for ideas. So it's sort of, we're not deciding, but like everyone is. So it's open, open house. Everyone can jump in. And then decide is like, we've got all the data we need, now we need to make a decision. And so, we make— so, that way, it's also clear to people when to jump in and offer in. And once we decide something, done. We decided, and now we need to go execute.

I love the framework. I especially love that because I think sometimes founders don't realize this is your meeting, and you get to decide how you want to structure. And they feel pressure from, like, business books or whatever to be collaborative and just, like, circle around a question, or a different business book or a different TV show, which is like, "I'm just telling you what to do." And so, they don't always know that actually it's all three hats at various different times.

That's right. And you need to be clear to people, this topic is open for brainstorm and discussion. This topic is not. We are deciding today because we need to decide. And maybe we don't have 100% of the answers, but we're deciding. And if we get new information, we can change that. But this is the decision today. And we document those decisions too, because sometimes what happens, big or small companies, you go back and rehash and rehash, right? Like, like, hey guys, we decided this last week, let's just move on. Um, so yeah, I think it allows you as the leader to say, that's a call we made and we are all now behind that, making it work. Um, and I know if it's a bad call you made, own it and say, I made a bad call, sorry, but you know, I made the call based on the information I had. And don't, don't get overly attached to Mistakes you've made too, own up to them.

Yeah, I love it. So good. I want to transition a little bit to your role as a board director. So you're on the board of, if I'm not mistaken, Microsoft and Spotify. Is that accurate?

Correct.

And so can you tell us about maybe your first— I'm going to even sort of ask you your first board meeting, right? So you were the first time you were ever a board director. At a public company. Maybe, maybe a tiny bit about how you, how you got that role. And then what was that first board meeting like in terms of your— it's a shift in perspective for you.

Yeah, maybe I'll step back a little bit, you know, I think, and talk a bit about what is the difference between being on a board and being on a management team. Because there is a big difference. And, you know, I think when you're on a board, you're not doing the job, right? Like, you're not doing the job of running the company. The management team is that— they're better at it. They're running the company. You're not running the company. And especially for people who are in operational roles, that's a big distinction because you are constantly— like, I am like constantly making decisions for Fable. And so when I go to a board meeting, I have to step back and say, okay, I'm not here to like run this company. I'm here to ask questions and, and ask ask questions in such a way that helps the management team think about things in a different way. Um, and that's the value I get from my board members too, right? Because we're— management team, whether you're your own company or the company you're on the board of, they're in, in and out of that business like every living, you know, breathing hour. So they're deep into it. Sometimes as an outsider, you offer a different perspective.. And so it's a big distinction and you have to get mentally comfortable with that. My first board was actually, I was very young when I joined the board of a public chemical company. I think I was in my 30s or something like that. And I had no clue what it meant to be on a board and a board member. Again, I learned very quickly. I think when you're on the board of a public company, you have to take the job very seriously. It's not just something you do to put on your resume. It takes a lot of time, takes a lot of reading on your— doing your homework, reading on your own. It's, it's work you do, uh, in your free time, quote unquote, right? Like, especially if you're in a current job and not retired, um, which many— sometimes board members do boards after they retire from an active career. But in my case, uh, I still have an active career, and so all of the board work I do, I have to love it because it's my weekend and it's my evenings, and you have to take the initiative and make it your, your business to learn that company's business. Um, so I, I would say don't take a board if you're not passionate about their business or that company, because you're spending your time— you have to spend your time learning and understanding that business. That's number one. Second thing you have to ask yourself is What is the value you bring as a board member to that company or that board? You know, are you— in my case, I think about what perspective can I bring being in Silicon Valley, being surrounded by everything that's happening in tech? You know, when I go to a board meeting, can I offer them a perspective of this is what's happening in the startup world? This is how we should think about talent and being competitive for compensation, belonging in a way I push CEOs to think about belonging more than the E&I. And, you know, I think these are things that you have to think about. What are expertise? What expertise do you bring to the board? That's the second thing. Third thing I look at is who's my peer group on that board? Because boards are interesting, right? Like, it's not like the board is always working together every day. Everyone has their day jobs and you meet for the board meeting and then you disperse and you get back together at the next board meeting. But I think you have to like figure out who the, who the other board members are and see what complementary skill sets each one brings. You know, who is a finance expert who's on the audit committee, who's on the govnom committee, who's really thinking about the composition of the board and how you bring that whole board together. And so I think those are some things that are very important when you are considering board That's fantastic.

Super helpful for sure.

What—

how would you say that being on these boards has shaped your view of what a great CEO is?

Yeah, so the way I chose the two boards I'm on, Microsoft and Spotify, as you mentioned, I look at it as, you know, Microsoft is a giant company, complex, you know, talk about complexity and scale. Scale. And they've gone through a remarkable transformation under Satya Nadella's leadership. You know, what I learned from being on that board is all of the things that are associated with digital transformation, right? Like, how is technology changing literally everything from gaming to how enterprise workloads are done? So I learn a lot when I go to these board meetings. And so for me, it's a joy to like read all the material and understand their business. And the value I bring is this startup perspective, small companies, and how, you know, when you're a giant company, you have customers that are massive too. So I always raise my hand. So what about small businesses? What can Microsoft do to help serve? So I think that's something that I bring in addition to my experience in the tech world. You know, I think Spotify, you know, for the same reason, I feel like it's such a great business model, right? You know, it's sort of like this content and bringing us, uh, they've completely disrupted how music and audio is consumed now. And I feel like I can learn a lot from Daniel as a founder, how he started that company when he was very young actually, and built that up. And, you know, they've transitioned from being a small company to a giant company now. So I always look for boards where I feel I can learn from the CEO and the management team as well, and also, uh, help them learn. From my, my expertise.

And I appreciate— I think what I'm reflecting on is sometimes people think about like quote-unquote mentors or people we can learn from as necessarily being older or more advanced in their career. But you have a mutual— I mean, it's not exactly mentor because you're on the board, but nonetheless it is kind of obviously informal mentoring. You have a mutual mentoring relationship with Daniel, and he's younger than you, and you've had different experiences. So I, I just appreciate ways that we can learn from people all around us.

Absolutely. I mean, I actually— that's why I, I think people sometimes overuse the word mentor and have a very one, uh, one-dimensional definition of what that is. We think it's somebody higher up, somebody who's kind of, uh, uh, older than you or wiser. You know, sometimes that's true, but not always. Actually, I found throughout my career I learn a lot from people who who work for me as well. I think even now I would learn a lot from people that are on my team that are experts at figuring out, and learn a lot from our editor who's a very thoughtful writer and who's always introducing great books to me. And so I think, yeah, you learn from people that have different skills than you.

Yeah, I love that. Now, Padma, you are so accomplished. And yet many accomplished people suffer from imposter syndrome or severe self-doubt. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome?

Every day. Yeah, I mean, I think it's human to doubt ourselves, right? You know, I think on the one hand, you have to be confident to take risks. I think that by— whether it's a startup, by the way, or even like changing jobs, I think I'm one of those people that loves to take risks, not because I'm— I think of it as taking risks, but because I think of it as learning. Like, if you look at my career, even before the startup thing, I switched industries many times. I went from semiconductor industry to mobile industry to cloud and networking, went from consumer to enterprise to building cars. I've never built cars before. I went to near people that I crazy. And now from building cars to starting a social company. And so, so to me, those are all risks in their own way. And I think I've maybe as a, as a person, I thrive in an environment where things are new and I have to learn. And I think that's what drives me. So yeah, I think that kind of thing helps me overcome my self-doubt and imposter syndrome. But I think, yeah, constantly you question yourself, am I doing the right thing? And like, God, I don't know, like, what if I make a mistake? Like, you know, and especially founders go through this, like you feel the weight of everyone else in your company, their livelihood on your shoulder, right? Like, you know, you have to make your company a success because so many people are there because they're trusting you. That's a whole different level of responsibility. By the way, talking about difference between big company and startups, like founders carry that, which is a huge weight, which you don't necessarily have in a bigger company. The company will be there even if you're not there. People will hopefully have their jobs and do well, but in a startup, that's not true. So yeah, I think definitely self-doubt constantly gnaws, and the way I try to overcome, overcome that or put that away in a different part of my brain is to focus on What can I get done today? I am very much an action-oriented leader. So I make myself a list of things I want to accomplish every single day. And I, I just make sure that I'm doing that right. Like, so focus on things that you can control and do versus worry about things you cannot control. That's sort of helped me. But yeah, of course, we all go through that.

Yes, I think a lot of people go through it. And I appreciate your sort of antidote is action. And also, when you're able to kind of focus on the thing you can do, and then you could do it correctly, successfully, you can get it behind you, you get the sort of confidence from that little win, so-called.

Yeah, exactly. Celebrate the little wins, you know, share that with others, right? Because sometimes you get confidence when you see other people are more confident in you. I get more confidence when my team says like, okay, yeah, Padma, that was a great decision. I was like, okay, great, awesome. Right? Like, so celebrate that as well with your team.

Yes. Oh my God, I love that because I think many times employees don't realize how important it is to give the CEO and how much the CEO gets or the founder gets from, you know, the kudos and the compliments. So, the celebration. So, I appreciate that. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

Interesting. I think I wish I had done a startup earlier in my career. I love it so much. Uh, you know, maybe it was sort of like I was doing well in my corporate career and I just felt like no need to change that. Um, and now I— when I talk about it, I talk to people about make a career change when you're doing really well, because that's the best time to make a career change. Because like, like if you're doing really well in your career, everyone wants you, they're going to pay you more money and you're in demand, make a switch then. I wish I had done that earlier in my career. I think I always felt like this complacency, oh, I'm doing great, everything's working out. Why should I? I mean, I changed industries a lot, so it's not like I was in the same job. I actually, I think I'm unusual in that way. I've literally touched every industry, maybe. Um, but, uh, yeah, I would, I would have done a startup sooner in my career.

Yep. Great. I love it. And last question, what advice do you have for founders as they embark on their journeys to grow into leaders?

I would say the biggest thing I advise them is be aware of what is working and what is not working in your product. Like, you know, I think sometimes we get blindsided and sometimes we drink our own Kool-Aid too much, so to speak. Like, so one of the things I do as a founder is I constantly ask people, what have I not thought about? Where am I getting blindsided? And by the way, I do get things that people say, oh, you are not doing this. And I was like, oh yeah, that's right, I'm not doing that. I should do that. Uh, usually it's with product, right? Like, you know, you, you're building a product. As a founder, you can only do so much, you know, because you're resource constrained. You can't do everything. So you make decisions on prioritizing what you think are right. But then you may be missing something. And so I think that is something I would constantly test and let go of the things that are not working. Sometimes we stay attached to things that are not working. Like you think like, oh, maybe I should try that. Maybe I should try this. You're better off like saying stop it and like, you know, do some, do things where you're getting traction.

Padma, thank you so much. What a fantastic conversation. Everyone's going to learn so much. And I just truly appreciate you spending your time with us today.

Thank you, Alisa. I hope to have a pod club on Fable with Startup to Grownup very soon.

I love it. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, website, AlisaCohn.com.