#46: Anouck Gotlib, Cofounder and CEO of Belgian Boys — Building a company when you’re a creative...

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. Welcome back to From Startup to Grownup, and today I'm delighted to welcome Anouk Gottlieb to the podcast. Anouk is the co-founder and CEO of Belgian Boys, a company that makes delicious Belgian treats like Belgian chocolate cookie bars, Belgian waffles and crêpes, and caramel stroopwafels, which is just fun to say. It probably won't surprise you to know that Anouk is from Belgium. She also has a background in fashion, and we talk about how that background has helped her in building her company and specifically in thinking differently about how to create some really interesting ways of interpreting company policies, which seem kind of basic. We also talk about how she met her husband, who's also her co-founder, why they have such a powerful partnership, and how they navigate between their marriage and their roles as co-founders. We also discuss all things management, like how she learned how to manage people, which she didn't have very much experience, and the questions she asks to test for values for prospective employees. We also talked about Anouk's walkout song. Yes, she has a walkout song. And the single piece of advice she got from a friend that helps her combat imposter syndrome. This is a super valuable conversation and you're gonna love it. So please enjoy this great conversation with Anouk Gottlieb. Anouk, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today.

Hi Alisa, I'm so excited to be here.

It's a thrill to welcome you, and I wanna talk about you and your company, Belgian Boys. First of all, what is the founding story of Belgian Boys?

Well, the founding story, I mean, you hear it from my accent, I'm not from the US. Belgium is in our name, which is where I'm from. I'm from Belgium. And really this company started because of, I mean, my husband Greg, who is the founder of the company, was basically moved to the States and was bringing waffles and cookies and treats for himself to enjoy every time he was traveling from Belgium. And his American friends in the dorms were like, oh my God, this is so good. Where can we buy it? And, and he graduated and he was like, well, how, how is it possible that we can buy those things in the US? And so he's like, maybe, maybe there's an idea here. Maybe that's something that we should examine and perhaps launch. And then I met Greg on a plane actually from Belgium to New York.

So romantic.

Oh, it's a while back also. So the airline doesn't exist anymore, which makes me feel really old. It was on Continental Airlines.

Back in the day.

Right? I mean, how is that back in the day though? It was, yeah, it was now over 12 years ago, something like that. And Really, that, that's— he— I was like, well, oh, well, my background actually is fashion design. That's why I came to New York, because if you're in fashion, you, you wanna be in New York. And Greg was like telling me his story, what he wanted to do. And I'm like, I love that, but we gotta tell our story. We can't just put a waffle in a wrapper on a shelf. We gotta make sure it looks good, that people will lift it off the shelf, that it's gotta be like eye candy, right? Not only taste good because in CPG you can't taste the product before you buy it. So why does the consumer want to buy it? And that's really how I wanna say we started. Um, his entrepreneurial, uh, I wanna say person persona and my background is in fashion and being creative. Led us to, to start Belgian Boys.

Yeah. Amazing. So how did you though, 'cause you were pursuing a fashion career and then I'm sure you were helping him, you know, launch the business because after you met, you started dating and then got married. So there you were. And so how did you sort of transition from fashion to get involved with the company? How'd you become CEO?

Yes. Uh, good question. I mean, Honestly, I loved what I did in fashion. I really did. I love to design and to create and to sketch and to sew and to conceptualize. Um, but the fashion industry was not something that I loved. And to be honest, the work culture, the toxicity that was in there was something that I had a very hard time with. And so yes, I was helping Greg at night to design the logo, to do the branding. Et cetera. And, and I, I remember we got engaged and I was like the happiest girl in the world. I wasn't expecting it at all. And I came back to the office and I'm like, I'm engaged, I'm engaged. And 5 days later I found myself being my, I don't wanna say my miserable self, but going back into this complaining about work, complaining about what the politics at work, the backstab, like all of that. And I'm like, How, how is this affecting so much my being? And that was a really click moment for me. And I just gave my resignation and I said, I'm gonna go and do less, you know, maybe another company in fashion. And Greg was like, why don't you do this with me? And I'm like, I don't know, you're my fiancé. Um, that's quite risky, I guess. Um, and We just said, let's give it a try and see where it goes. We don't wanna risk our relationship, of course. And hey, we've been doing this for now 8 years and we have 2 kids and a business and we still love each other. So that's good.

That's good. So, so far so good.

Uh, but really I said, okay, so if we're gonna really do this company over the time, what I've come to love is actually not being able to create a space where people come to work and wanna be, or not want to be, because I think everybody wants to come happy to work, but are actually able to be happy to work at work, to be able to create that trusting team. And happiness is really like cultivating joy is one of our values at Belgium Boys. So I started, you know, doing, you know, to answer your question, I started by doing the branding, the logo, the design, working with freelancers. And I think really at one point organically, we kind of decided, Greg and I, that I would take the role of CEO because we really understood what each other's strengths and weaknesses are. And then Greg is really the It, it's funny actually, cuz Greg has a business background. I have a creative background, and today Greg does more of the creative and I do more of the business, which I think is, is not what we imagined, uh, or what you would imagine looking at our resumes, right? But I think we do things differently. Greg is truly an entrepreneur, a visionary. He like, pushes the vision further. And I like, I'm able to get stuff done with the team and see, like, look at P&Ls and things like that, which is something that Greg doesn't. We found the balance in each other.

I think that's, that's, that's so fascinating because I can imagine that when you talked about, well, you're good at this and I'm good at this, that you were focusing on how creative you are. And also, you know, it was, he was the one who had the idea of starting the business. So I, I am really curious, like how did it turn out to be that it was clear that you were the one who had the business mind really more like in terms of running the P&L and getting things done and managing the team from your creative kind of background. How did that emerge?

Yeah, I mean, I think even in my creative being, and I'm going back to when I was, uh, you know, in fashion school here. And, and even when I was designing, Greg was always like, so this is the idea. And then I was more like translating that idea to become a reality, right? But he was a, it's not like, we need to push it more. It needs to be more like this. And I'm good taker of information and translating into something that actually will look, will be great on the shelf. Someone that pushes the vision further and I want to say raises the bar, that's Greg. Like sitting in a, you know, meeting for 5 hours, that's not him.

That's—

and I do have that discipline, right? I think when it really started to click is, you know, and in the beginning we were doing a lot together, so answering emails together, working at this together, looking at that together. And it hit a point where that was hard. It was hard to even have a conversation when you, I wanna say, micromanage each other a bit. But then we had a click. We started doing coaching, um, and we can talk more about that. But a moment of realization for both of us was that, listen, out of everyone in the world, The one person I trust the most is him and vice versa. And I trust him to take decisions for the business. I might not agree with the decision or I would've taken another route, but I trust that he had the right intention to make that decision because his vision and my vision of what Belgium Boys will be, will become, and our goals are aligned. Our goals in life and in business are aligned. And I think that unlocked a lot in our path to scale from just growing.

Yeah, that makes complete sense. I definitely wanna talk about your experience coaching, but even before that, you know, so you got engaged, he's doing this thing, you're gonna do it together, you got married, now you have 2 kids, you've been doing this 8 years, but surely you've had to navigate some dynamics because your co-founder is your life partner, right? Is your husband. So what are like the best parts? You've really talked about that a little bit, but like what are the best parts of working with your husband, your spouse? And then what are some things which have been tricky that you've really had to navigate?

I mean, you know, I think the trick is when are we talking just like hubby and wife and kids, and when are we talking as like business partners, right? And navigating that can be tough sometimes, I would say. And I think, I mean, we do a lot of mindfulness and I would say that's something that has helped us is just being able to be that mirror, right? To each other, like without any filter. Because I do think that with, I mean, even interactions with my team, I don't wanna say I'm not honest, but giving feedback. Right? You can be truly raw, or I am able to be truly raw with my spouse in a way that I cannot be with anyone else in the world. And I think that has just led to a conversation. I think we have the mutual understanding that we both want to better ourselves as individuals. And it's not to say you are not doing this well, it's to say I believe by doing this you might improve yourself, or have you looked at it this way, right? Without judgment, just for the— if you grow as an individual, this company will grow as a result. And that's a basic foundation of, I think, our relationship and something that we try to bring to our team as well.

Right. Have you talked about that explicitly together? The idea like our job is to grow as people and that's gonna help us grow this company.

Yes, I mean, that's also one of our values. Our, our, uh, number 4 value is D and it's develop ourselves. Um, we put a lot of emphasis on growing as people, growing as human being, and I genuinely believe that a company will only grow if its individuals keep investing in themselves, in growth, whether that's coaching or learning new skills. If you do not do that with your team, if you do not team you see your team members grow, your company will stagnate.

Totally agree. Of course you're singing my tune. I totally relate to that. And you two decided to get a coach, a business coach, I think, together. And how did— what, what did you do with that coach and how did that work?

So we did not decide to do it. We were tricked into it. And honestly, we were at a point— it was in the middle of the pandemic, I think life was hard back then, right? For, for everyone. And my brother actually, God bless him, tricked us into a session with a mindfulness, a corporate mindfulness coach. And he was like, I'll babysit your kids. And I was like, on a Sunday? What's up? He's like, yeah, you gotta talk to this person, and like Greg and I go into the meeting thinking it's like a pitch or some, some sort, right? So we're like, yeah, so this is Belgium Boys and blah, blah, blah. And she's like, so talk to me about you, tell me something. And I'm like, what is she talking about? And it was so strange at first. It took us quite some months to be able to really understand what it was. And honestly, I feel like I'm, I'm very grateful to both my brother and our coach. Like, this is how I start my Monday morning every single week, and I, it grounds me, it helps me in my leadership style, my personal growth, and my relationships as well. And it's Mindfulness, bringing mindfulness into the workplace is really tools that we use on a, well, weekly and daily basis.

That's so powerful. Can you say specifically, kind of say specifically how, what tools you've learned and how you apply them and why they make you more effective?

Yes, and I'm not the meditating person. I don't meditate every day. I meditate sometimes. It's really more of these Practical things, right? Like reflecting, listening skills, talking skills. Um, I learned about what not multitasking is, how multitasking really affects, like, even the brain can't do it, like the scientific things behind that. So that was just an eye-opener. For me, um, how to deal with imposter syndrome. That's something that I've really been dealing with and we've been talking about that a lot. And then how I can bring this to my team. How do I have what I learn cascade into the organization? And I do that on a weekly meeting with our team and it's the one hour that actually I am the most passionate about and I wanna believe that our team is as well. Hopefully they'll back me, but it, you know, I, I started seeing in the pandemic, and you will remember this before the pandemic, team meeting. Okay, we all gather around the table, everyone talks. These are my goals for the weeks. These are my challenges for the weeks. And we go around the table. No one was with their phones. No one was multitasking cuz you are in your— that would be rude. But today you end up in these meetings, all hands meeting, People say their piece and then, you know, they, they just, you see their eyes not being present. Be present. That's the biggest thing of mindfulness, being present in the moment. Right now I'm having a conversation with you and that's where my mind is. But like putting all the noise away of these like P&Ls that I reviewed, the team meeting that I had, the, the conversation I need to have right after, like I'm not thinking about that right now. That's a state that I wasn't able to get to, I wanna say, 4 years ago. And so with the team, I changed our team meeting. It's called Talk About It Tuesday. The reason it's called like that, it's because we're talking on the Tuesday, like absolutely no other reason. But I said, if I'm bringing the whole organization together, let's talk about something that matters. Because touch bases, we can do that any other time. And so we talk about stress. I bring in speakers. We talk about happiness. We talk about multitasking and omnitasking. We watch TED Talks. We talk about conversation, how to have conversations, how to give feedback, radical candor, a bunch of those subjects that I see and that I bring to the team. Procrastination, imposter syndrome. And it is now tools that after I see the team applying to their everyday, and that gives me lots of joy because that's the growth. That's the—

Right. And do you talk regularly with the team about how much you want them to develop based on these things? So you just offer the things or you actually talk about that growth? For sure. For sure.

We talk about that growth.

So what does that look like? Like if I were on your team and you were gonna talk, talk to me about how important it is for me to grow personally, how would you sort of articulate that to me without being like preachy or like, where is she?

First of all, everyone that joins our company gets a copy of Radical Candor, the book by Kim Scott.

My good friend Kim Scott, she's amazing. That's a great book.

I mean, I've never met Kim Scott, but like, she's— I'm definitely, uh, she's like on my list of people I want to meet one day. Yeah. Um, and have a coffee with, like, definitely. And is it mandatory reading? Absolutely not. Will you feel really awkward if you have no idea what we're talking about? Yes, because it's a way of communicating. It's a way of understanding. This is where I'm at right now, and I'm gonna get feedback, and I'm going to take this not as a judgment or attack, but it's going to make me better. So first of all, you have to understand the foundation. After that, we all are aligned that you wanna grow as an individual. Right? It really depends on who it is because for some people it might be, oh, I need to learn a new skill set that is going to be good into my growth, whether, I don't know, a conference in Excel. Um, uh, one of our team members is talking, is working a lot with internationals and now actually just develop herself means learning a new language. It's as basic as that. But for other team members, it's like, hey, now you were junior and now you became a manager, you're going to manage people. What are we doing there? So that will be, that will vary from a course to coaching. Um, it's very much, I, I don't wanna say it's a, this is what we do from a process standpoint. It's very individual because not everybody grows and learns and develops themselves. At the same pace or need the same tools. I think it's very much individual basis. Yeah.

And it sounds like part of what you need to do when you hire people is to make sure that they're the kind of people who are oriented towards this kind of growth. And I guess I'm just interested in knowing what if, what, what do you ask folks when you hire them to make sure they're going to be a cultural fit? And, you know, candidly, what mistakes have you made that you've learned and grown from?

Oh, well, I learned a lot from hiring. I mean, I've I've— before the pandemic, we're a team of 5. Today we're a team of 25 in 3 years. So that's a lot of people to manage all of a sudden. And I'm learning. I'm like, I don't know anything about corporate. I've— I would— I never worked in corporate, so I'm looking to understand. I'm joining other communities to understand what doesn't work well in corporate, to make sure that I doesn't bring it in by us. But I'll show you. So, okay, last year we went through this exercise. Of defining our values, our core values. We hadn't identified, I guess they were in my head somewhere, in Greg's head, in team members' heads, but like, let's identify them. And our core values are act like an owner, build tenaciously together, cultivate joy, develop ourselves, and execute with enthusiasm. That's our core values. When we looked at them, they were in different Um, just order. And all of a sudden we're like, oh my God, this is our ABC. They start with A, B, C, D, E. Going perfect. So what did we do? I got everyone on the team blocks. You know those blocks, just like you go to a baby shower and you get blocks. And on one of our Talk About It Tuesday, we started to just paint the blocks. And so everyone on their desk has these blocks. They all look different, but they sit on our desk. I think there is one thing about having values as an organization. The second thing is about making sure your values are alive. And so when someone does something by us that is of value, we'll be like, oh my God, that's such an A, that's like an owner. When we actually flash them, they are in our face every day. And then, how do I know about new team members? We reverse engineered questions to test on our values.

Like what questions?

Like Cultivate Joy will ask, talk to me about sometimes that you were joyful at work. Like explain to me that situation, right? Develop ourselves. How do you grow as an individual? What is something that you did in the last year that you feel made you grow? Or, you know, the typical question, where do you see yourself in 3 years? We ask it different. We say, what are things you want to see change in the next 3 years about yourself? And like, just those difference in nuances help us see how someone will react, how someone will answer to those questions to see if it's a culture fit.

I love that. What are questions that help identify act like an owner?

Act like an owner. Tell me about some times where you brought money back to the P&L of your company and how did you go about it? I bought business cards with a coupon. That's somebody that feels like, you know, you spend your own money. I mean, first of all, act like an owner. You have to make people become owners, right? So we have stock option plan, team members join our stock option plan. You can't just say act like an owner and not make people owners in your company. I feel like that's just talk and no do. Right. So you have to do that first, but then it's all about the small thing. Like, this is your money and people, I mean, it's hard to have people really grasp that, but wear your owner's hat. Like, that's a sentence I say a lot in the team.

Wear your owner's hat. I love that. And I love, and, and for those of you listening and not watching, Anouk just held up ABCD, these beautiful like blocks like you see, you know, that babies have. I love that. And I was gonna ask you, but I think it's also self-evident, you know, the way you've used your artistic and creative talent in building the company. I know you also use them in your handbook. Could you talk about your handbook?

Yes. Well, our handbook, so We went from a team of 5 to 25 today. And it was last year that team members started saying, well, what's our handbook? And I'm like, why do we need a handbook? Um, and well, we need— no, not even a handbook, it's HR. We need HR, we need HR. And I'm like, well, there's a problem, come talk to me, we'll deal with it. We needed HR. Okay, so we hired a fractional HR, Megan. She's fantastic. She's helped me a lot. In just putting processes, building blocks. But then this handbook, I was like, okay, I got, I said, you know, I kind of built a sketch of what I wanted. I kind of want it to be a book that people will want to read, that want to be a part of it. It actually today has become part of, like, I, I think it's part of our marketing as well. Our, our handbook, it looks beautiful, but the content is amazing as well. And I remember, funny, just like anecdote, I, I, um, got introduced to lawyers that will write this handbook. And so I expressed my vision of what I wanted, and they came back with like this 57-page document that I couldn't even understand. That on the first page it says like, welcome to Belgium Boys, just as you read, as, uh, 'You retain the options to leave, we retain the option to fire you any day with or without cause.' And I'm like, no, like, no way. That is not Belgium Boys. Like, that's not how I— like, how can you build a culture of happiness if on the first page you say, 'I can fire you'? Like, no, it's not how you speak to team members. How will people feel like owners if that's what you tell them? Right? And it, it went against, again, maybe that's because I don't know corporate, et cetera, but I pushed, I worked with Megan and who I found really vibed with my, I wanna say more kumbaya leadership style. And, and we created this document that is beautiful that people actually read. I mean, I don't know how many people read their team handbook and you always have to sign it. You always have to acknowledge it, right? You need to sign the acknowledgement that you read it. I want people to actually read it and enjoy reading it. Like we have quotes in there from Simon Sinek, from our team members that, that genuinely describe the Belgium Boys culture and talks about our policies.

Yeah, I love it. That is so beautiful. And you talk about, you know, maybe it's not because you're, you're not from corporate. I mean, it is true. You haven't had a corporate job, you didn't go to business school. And so in a way you're left to, and you are a creative person, and so in a way you're like able to and free to invent something that other people haven't invented. Kind of where does that you think help you and does that ever hold you back?

You know what I mean? The way you even asked the question, I was like, well, That's why I suffer from imposter syndrome, right? Like, I always feel, even with my language, I mean, I feel like I don't use fancy words. I use words like amazing and the best and because it really is amazing, right? And I always thought that that was something that made me not good enough. Me not being in a corporate environment made me think that I have no idea. And honestly, I do not know about how to implement processes in our team. That always made me feel not good enough. And now what I think, or how I've worked around it, or how I've been able to get better at it is, well, working with my coach, but understanding that everything I find as weaknesses for myself, I can surround myself with that. I can bring in amazing leadership. Team members that have been a part of corporate, right? That didn't like certain things about being at that corporate, but that know how to build teams, that know how to build process, that know how to, like, why we need an ERP, that knows how to do policies and all these things, that know how to push performance way better than me. And I'm very grateful that I've built that in my team right now.

That's amazing. You know, you are not the only founder who has dealt with imposter syndrome. In fact, I would just enlighten you and everybody that 95% of successful people, high achievers, have suffered from imposter syndrome or severe self-doubt at some point in their lives. And that includes very famous people like Howard Schultz and Lady Gaga. So how have you— it sounds like you've really done a lot of inner work on this with your coach, but what specific tools have you come up with to help with your own imposter syndrome, to help deal with that?

There's like tiny things for me, like honestly, tiny things. Okay, power posing. It's so, like, it's such a tiny thing, but like before this podcast, I power posed because it makes me feel better about myself.

Like, I love it.

It does. I have a walkout song. I listen to Dancing in the Moonlight. It's my absolute favorite song. It makes me smile. I go in there with another mindset already makes me feel like when you feel good, and it's the small things in life that I think, oh, then some— actually, there's also one sentence, one sentence, one, um, it's a friend of mine, Yogev Verdugo. He has, um, um, basketball camps for kids, and he said one thing to me. He said, Anouk, every day impress yourself. Impress yourself every single day. And I think about that sentence a lot because that's how you start fighting imposter syndrome, right? Like, what did I do today to impress myself? I also practiced gratitude. You know, if I ask you, or if you, you know, I don't know, I don't know if you practice gratitude, Alisa Cohn.

Yes, I do.

Why?

As a ritual. Yeah.

As a ritual. When it becomes a ritual, It helps you. But if you ask me 4 years ago, what are you grateful for? I would say, I don't know, my health, my family, and I'm not, I don't know, like something else that's really, really big, right? I, we live on a planet, um, like big things. I have food to put on the table for my family. And today when you practice gratitude every single day, I say today I'm grateful that I took 10 minutes and had my coffee outside, and there was like this ray of sunshine on me, and it started my day with good vibes. I had a hard conversation with somebody and we both grew out of that. Those are two of my things. And my third thing will probably be where I'm gonna have Shabbat dinner with my kids. And I always love that on Friday. That makes my Friday. And those are the three things I'm gonna write today in my gratitude journal. But I think when you bring it to those small things, it gets easier. I also ground myself with the fact that I don't know what it is to be a CEO of a company that's tomorrow days old. I don't know if I, how I'm gonna do there. I don't know. I think I was successful as being the CEO of a company that was yesterday's CEO, day old, right? And I've done that. So the past, you know, tap yourself on the back. You've made it to yesterday. Tomorrow, let's see what are we gonna learn tomorrow and let's apply this to that tomorrow's yesterday. I don't know if that makes sense.

That's amazing. There are so many gems in there. I just wanna highlight your, like, this is like a TED Talk, right? So the, your list of tools to handle imposter syndrome. Wait, I just wanted to capture what you said. Number 1, wait, what was the first one? Oh, power pose. Number 1, power pose. Number 2, you have a walk-on song that you play that reminds you, it sort of peps you up. Number 3, you, what was number 3? That you practice gratitude. You also pat yourself on the back for the things that you've already done. And was there one I missed?

Impress yourself.

Impress you.

I love that.

Sorry.

Every day.

Impress yourself every day. That should be tattooed on all of our wrists. That's amazing. I love that. And I think there's so much there to inspire other people for sure. You know, I'm just curious because I wanna come back to the other thing you said, which is that you have sort of a kumbaya leadership approach and that joy is really important for you in the workplace. But how do you manage the fact that days are not always joyful? So your team might have to do, you know, kind of boring things, and also you might have to have a difficult conversation, which you might even be dreading. So how do you deal with the fact that you wanna have joy in the workplace, but you're also running a business?

A very complex question. I don't, I don't have all the answers yet. I think it's a lot about the destination, right? And I've, um, you know, I talked about, um, Simon Sinek, but a big book for me was Infinite Games. And where he really describes about, you know, a game like soccer, there's a beginning, there's a middle, there's an end, and there's a winner at the end, there's a loser at the end, the rules are clear. And in business and in life, that's not the case, but business people treat it as an infinite game when it's clear— as a finite game when it clearly is an infinite game. And so that kind of really led me to think about what is success. And yes, there are goals, there are KPIs, and that are all like milestones. But let's face it, if you like raise a bunch of money, if you go IPO, tho— those are like milestones, right? I got X amount in revenue, I got X amount in EBITDA. It's not like anyone's gonna give you a medal and say like, congrats, you won, right? Like, that's not how it goes. And for me, success is the joy of the journey. Like, I love what I do every single day. I come into work, I know that I'm building this business. I get to work with my husband, which for me is awesome. And I get to learn from amazing team members and advisors and investors that genuinely wanna be on this journey with us. And we have tough conversation, but when you have all those tough conversation because you want the journey to be joyful. It's different because you gotta take the judgment out of it. But I'm not saying that we are— I mean, we're a startup, we operate in intense stress. I would say all my team feels the level of stress, feels the level of performance, but we have mutual respect that we are executing on this together. And we were like, I mean, our brand is pink. We bring joy to our customer. That's our why. Our why is to spark moments of happiness. So if we can't be happy ourselves, how are we gonna spark moments of happiness to our consumer? Like, it gotta start on the inside. And some days suck, really, it sucks. But the bigger picture is fun and you can have fun and happy every day, but you can bring optimism and positivity to everything you do, even to very, very shitty situations. Like, put a joke on it, right?

Because it helps create levity. For sure. But did you always feel this way? 'Cause I really agree with you and I actually coach all my clients the whole notion of like, when you approach something as an ally, when you approach something like we all want the same thing here, it allows you to have a tough conversation and have the person not get defensive. So that's easy to say. And I say that all the time and I try to also do that all the time. But I'm curious, was it something that you had to really learn how to give difficult feedback? And can you talk about that journey or?

'You was born that way.' No, no, I had to learn to not only give feedback, to receive feedback. I tend to take things very, very personal, or I used to. I still do in some cases, I want to say, if I'm being very self-aware, especially when it comes from Greg. But then you pause and you be present And you take, like, you're saying, hey, like, this is no judgment. I rather, when I do a 360 review, I don't care about the good stuff. I only care about the bad stuff because that's the stuff I can work on, right? And I think that people that join Belgian Boys want to develop themselves. I think that's a common value among us that 'Hey, I'm giving you feedback,' and I think even saying it out loud before you have that tough conversation, right? Like, you can go into a conversation and say, uh, 'So this is not happening, this is not happening, we're not hitting our numbers there, this is your fault, you're not going fast enough.' Or you can be like, 'Hey, I need to give you feedback right now, and I hope you will take this as a learning moment and grow out of it. This is what I have observed.' And also, how can I help you? What are the things that I can do? And then conversation will be like, I know, take this off my plate. Let's outsource this so that I can focus only on this metric. And, and these are things that have happened in our team. And I think where it doesn't happen is when you just like try to like not say anything and then it bundles up and you know, you're like, oh, and this is not happening and this person's not doing this and that and that and that. And all of a sudden it's like a time bomb that explodes, and that's never a good conversation. As long as you have that constant dialogue, it's fine.

Yeah, that's so well said. Like you said, when it's an explosion, a time bomb, it is never a good conversation. I think we can all agree with that. Now you mentioned 360 feedback, which is a tool I personally love, the idea of getting feedback from everybody around you. So 360 degrees is the degrees of a circle. Can you tell us about that process yourself and what you've learned from that and how you've changed as a result of getting 360 feedback?

Yes. I mean, um, I choose individuals and I ask them to give me feedback. Why do I stop, start, continue doing?

You do that personally? You don't have your coach do that? You do it personally?

Well, no, this, that exercise was with my coach actually.

Okay.

The coach will talk to them and then give me the, and then I look at the feedback. And honestly, I mean, I'm reading now, um, The Culture at Netflix. And they're saying how it's, you know, anonymous. And I am thinking about, should it be anonymous? Because by us it was anonymous, but I kind of know who said what also because, you know, right? And I'm like, it shouldn't be anonymous. And right now I'm really just asking for feedback on, I don't wait for this, like a review. I just say, hey, like I'm struggling with this. Have you seen that? And what should I be doing more? I ask that question a lot.

That's a great question.

And I think what I am seeing now is other team members asking me, hey, what do you think I should be doing that I'm not doing right now? So it started become a question that I see like happening other places as well. I guess it's working.

That's amazing. I love that idea of like we create a culture, we can all give each other feedback. Would you mind sharing like one or two pieces specifically of feedback and what you're doing to change them?

Of me personally? Yes. I am a very gut-driven decision maker, which I think up until now has, you know, I think, or when we were a small team, it's like fine. And I've gotten the feedback to just take a step back and to look at more at the data before making decisions. And that is something that I've struggled in the past and now I'm working on it to, yes, get the data or also not only that, but ask for the data before I make a decision because, you know, it feels like me, it feels like it. I always talk about feelings and like actually looking and getting the data, um, has, has been one.. And then listening, I know that's my weakest skill. I need to improve my listening skills and I work on it and I shared it with all my team and I ask them to snap fingers at me and tell me when I'm like, "Anne, can you listen to me?" I think that's so great that you've involved in the process.

By the way, listening is a common trait that we all need to improve. But how, besides telling your team members to, hey, to like point it out to you, What are you doing personally to help improve your listening skills?

I work a lot on it with my coach, like some, you know, just, or, or some small tactics, right? Like look at someone in the eyes or just really repeat the words in your mind when somebody is talking to, or think about, you know, when you, you're listening to somebody and you're like, I just wanna ask a question. Write that question down, right? I get also, I'm, I'm, I'm a very visual person, so I started taking, I, I've always taken notes, but I take even more notes now because note taking, I was always doing it at school and we found that that was an unlock for me because I can listen way better when I'm writing. So Tim will always see, I have like these notebooks and I have one right here and they're always like full of notes and I'm always just writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, and it helps me with my attention span to just listen. And I write questions down and then I ask them, but I haven't mastered it.

Hmm. But those are great tools. It's a practice for all of us. It's a practice for all of us. And those are really helpful tools. Now, Anouk, I know that during the pandemic it was a difficult time for everybody. When we talked before this, you talked about times that you've experienced burnout. Could you talk about that, what that was like and how you were able to overcome that?

Yes. Um, well, I mean, the pandemic was horrible.

Ugh.

It's a loss and I found it very stressful. We had a, I mean, Joshy was 3 months old. We had a team. We were worried for our own health, for our team's health, for, I mean, and I, we have, we have help. Um, we have a nanny, we have childcare. Our parents don't live here. And I had a support system and all of a sudden that support system gone. And that really affected me personally. I, you know, when being in the house all the time with, with Craig, it's just too much. And that's really when my brother tricked us into coaching. I think for me, the answer to that burnout was looking at what I was doing wrong. And where I was putting too much pressure on me. And that mindfulness has brought— I mean, saved me from burnout.

So it was mindfulness and maybe also maybe a little self-compassion? Oh, sure.

I'm a pretty demanding person to myself.

I can imagine. But was that all it took? Because burnout is also kind of the relentless day-to-day. Did it just take you to realize, oh, I need to be calmer and more mindful, or were there other practices?

It took, um, I wanna say months to get out of it, right? And I think I have this relationship, like last summer, all of a sudden there were like some really stressful situation and I was digging back into it. Um, taking care of yourself, finding what that self-care means to you, right? Um, for me now I have this new obsession. Well, it's not new. I'm a big, uh, I became, I guess, a big brand ambassador of Rent the Runway. I love the app, honestly. And it has become my, like, thing. I scroll, I create collections. I, and that's how also, I guess, I bring my old world of fashion into this. And it's been like, that's my thing. And that really takes my mind off. And do something that I love. And it's so simple, right? Like bringing in something that you actually enjoy.

Yeah. Yeah. And having that to look forward to and shift gears and sort of focus your attention on. I think that's very helpful. Sometimes we think that burnout is like do less, but actually it's maybe add things that you actually love that bring you joy to make you feel more fulfilled.

Yeah. It's one actually exercise, um, that I did with, uh, Dana. Was, okay, you wake up, you go to sleep. What are all the things you do, right? Like I wake up, I brush my teeth, I, I go to do my emails and I do this and I do that. I, you know, and then you write a plus or a minus on the left if it's something you enjoy or if it's something you are not looking forward to, right? And you look at your battery. How is your day? Is your day full of pluses or minuses? And making sure that your day is balanced, that you don't have like 6 minuses in a row without a plus. And then what are some things that you can do to make those minuses more enjoyable? I'll give you an example. When the kids were a bit younger, bath time was a bit chaotic for us. It was a lot of screaming. One kid didn't wanna go in the bath. It was like, it really was not a moment that I looked forward to. What did we do? Added music to it. Mm, he loves music. I love music. We ended up dancing in the, the bath and bath time became like the best moment of the day. Adding music, like how can it be as simple as that, right? What are some other things that you really dread in your day? When I have a meeting I really, really do not enjoy, I make myself a cup of coffee before because I love to drink coffee. And so I do this meeting while drinking coffee. Every time I take a sip, I feel that smile going higher.

I love those strategies. I love everything about that because it's just so, it's so different as opposed to, oh, we have to somehow make it go away. You're like, no, you have to accept reality and then see what you can do to make something more softer in that reality. I love that. Anouk, you and your husband are both immigrants, as you talked about. How has being, how, how has that affected your entrepreneurial journey, your leadership journey, kind of the business?

I mean, okay, we grew up in Antwerp, Belgium, and New York, America, it's all in the movies, right? For like, that's what it was. And then starting a business in America, it's like that American dream, right? Like, I feel like I'm living it. Honestly, I maybe like, maybe it's the movies that I saw, but it's actually a possibility. And, um, I believe that that can be it. Like we launched a company, we took a risk, we met amazing people and I wouldn't have met them weren't it like if it wasn't for the business, I'm meeting like role models of mine and I love it and I think it's part of our story, right? Yes. But on the other side, we live here. Our families don't live in New York. Um, my parents live in, in Israel. Greg's parents live between Belgium and Boca. And in that sense, you know, it's different. We, we don't have like cousins and lots of family here. And that is a piece that we are missing on a, on a day-to-day, or that our kids don't have, right? So there is give and take. But I mean, I love, I love living here. I love also the mentality. I don't know, people say Americans sometimes are fake, right? Like, that's what I grew up— Americans are fake. But you know what? I'd rather walk into a store in America than in Europe. You walk in here, it's like, hi, how are you? How can I help you? In Belgium, it's like, It's 5:02. You're like, I'm closing right now. And like, literally, I have no intention to fake it. Like, I'd rather have someone smiling, even if it's not 100% genuine, than someone really depressing me. That's something that, like, literally, I walk in the street and I do this with my friend, my European friends, and they're like, this is weird. Like, you really became American. Like, I walk in the street, I'm like, good morning. You know, like, literally, like, the good morning, like the American good morning when you walk and like someone crosses your path. And my friends like, What the hell are you doing? And it became part of me as well, those American, like, ask things. I mean, it's also, we live in New York, so it's very fast-paced, which I love. Um, and fits Greg and me totally. And yeah, every time I like cross that bridge, it's like, I hear like the, the, um, the, the song, like New York. And like, that's how I feel. I'm like, oh my God, I live in New York. How freaking amazing is this? And I'm very grateful for that.

That's amazing. I love that. How have you grown as a leader in the past few years leading the company?

That's a question for my team, not for me. Um, I really struggled with the word leader, with the word leader, because I didn't see myself as a leader. I didn't see why I would inspire or why I were to lead people, right? And I struggled with that a lot. And I've learned, I think, over the last 2, 3 years how to deal with that internally. Again, imposter syndrome. Um, but for me, again, I feel like it's a bit repetitive, but develop yourself, being self-aware and admitting when you have no clue about something, being super transparent about that, like asking people, what do you think about it? When I understood from my team that that is not a weakness, but that's actually a self-awareness quality, that was mind-blowing to me, as if I discovered something. Really, I was like, oh wow, like people actually enjoyed that and felt like that was way more raw and respected more because of it, right? Like, I don't have the answers, but I do ask a lot of questions now. And I think that curiosity and authenticity, vulnerability, I would say, are definitely my leadership skills. Even when I see the word leadership now, I will think leadership, like not 100% confident of it, but I get it. I, I'm more— I'm working on it.

I love it. You were— you're growing, you're working on it, you'll own it. I love it. It's so great. Just a couple more questions. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

So many things, um, but I do believe that you know things because you went through them and you learned through them, right? Like, there's so many people that told me, uh, oh, don't do this, don't do that. And you're like, whatever, okay. And then you do it and then you find out, and that's when you don't repeat it. You have to go through the learning. And I think what I wish I knew was just that these failure moments, I was very hard early on, on myself for those failure moments. Ah, like this didn't happen. This is hard. And I used to beat myself up, Greg, and I used to take this very hard. And like a discontinuation at the store, like that's a big failure. The amount of things I learned about going through that failure are priceless. And I think being less hard on myself through those failures is something I wish I I wish I knew and I wish that I understood how learning comes from bad things, not from good things.

That's very well said. I totally understand that. It's also a very, it's like a meta concept, you know, sort of like the knowing that you're going to make those mistakes along the way and giving yourself more grace to be able to do that. That's beautiful. And last question, what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journey to grow into leaders?

What advice? I would say the advice I have is to genuinely enjoy what you do every day. There is no way of running a successful business if you hate what you do. Like, I don't— I believe that. That's number one. Number two, surround yourself by people that are way smarter than you in subjects and ask for advice, ask for feedback. You're afraid to ask. You don't want other companies to copy what you do. Well, have someone tear it down so you can build it better versus finding out later that it sucked, right? Um, and don't be so pro— I don't wanna say defensive when you get feedback that is not what you wanna hear. People tearing you down is actually going to make you better. Um, so that's the advice I would give, especially when it's an early concept, right? Like, there is no way in the world that this concept that you have in your head right now is 100% perfect. It's not possible. You need to have the feedback from others to make it better. And, but I wouldn't wait also to have it perfect to launch, 'cause there's never a perfect moment. So you build and as you go, you tweak it, you screw a bit here, you screw a bit there, you fix a bit here and just fly. Just start flying and build the plane while you're doing it, while you do it.

Just fly. I love it. Anouk, this has been so inspiring and so insightful. I just wanna really thank you for being on the show and for sharing your wisdom and your real talk and your perspective. People are really gonna get a lot out of it. So thank you so much.

Oh, Alisa, thank you so much for having me. You've had such inspiring people. Talk about imposter syndrome, like the people you've had on the show. I'm like a huge imposter here. I don't know why I'm on this show, but thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you for listening to me today, and I can't wait. Like, this is exciting, and happy Friday.

Happy Friday, and thank you again so much. It's great. Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.