#51, Joel Jackson, Co-Founder and President of Lifeforce — Working with celebrity founders, takin...

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. Today, I'm so excited to welcome Joel Jackson to the podcast. Joel is the co-founder and president of Life Force, which is a functional healthcare company focusing on optimizing performance in midlife. They use diagnostics in combination with lifestyle recommendations to help people fully self-actualize through their best health. Now, you all know that I'm obsessed with health and fitness, so it's really a treat to talk to Joel about Life Force, which is trying to help people optimize their health. We had a really fascinating conversation. We cover how Joel got interested in the health space to begin with, his first entrepreneurial experiences and how difficult it was to have to shut down his first startup, something a lot of founders can relate to, along with anyone who's ever had to shut down an important project. Now, Joel seems to have developed a really specific niche in that he's worked with celebrity founders like Jessica Alba, the actress, Dave Asprey, who's a well-known biohacker and the founder of Bulletproof Coffee, and now with Life Force, the famous self-help guru Tony Robbins. Tony Robbins has rather a large personality, and so we talked about what it's like to co-found the company with such a looming figure and how he learned from Tony about the beauty of marketing. We also cover some important frameworks, like how he learned to take in feedback without getting defensive and his specific recipe for blame-free debriefs of projects, which are so important for anyone who wants to learn. I loved this conversation and I know you will too. So please enjoy my fantastic conversation with Joel Jackson, co-founder and president of Life Force. Joel, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you today.

Great, great to be here. Very excited to be here. Thank you.

I'm super excited. You know, we, we, we met at Collision and I was so like, I glommed onto you immediately because you're, you're the co-founder of a company called Life Force. Oh my God. Tell us about Life Force and tell us about the founding insight.

Okay, so let's start with Life Force. Life Force is a clinician-led longevity platform. And what, what do I mean by that is we're trying to take a world-class longevity doctor and put it in every American's pocket. And what that looks like is every 4 months we draw your blood, we do a really in-depth diagnostic, we put you with one of our doctors, and we adjust a plan so you can live through your health the highest possible quality of life for as long as possible. And so A little bit about the origin story. I think it was non-traditional, for sure. The co-founders of this company with myself and my co-founder Dougal are Tony Robbins and Peter Diamandis. And I think a lot of startups come together around kind of, we want to build a product. We came together around a shared belief system, a shared mission, and maybe the world's greatest go-to-market opportunity because Tony was writing a book about health. That, that shared belief system is really that people's health should support them living an incredibly high quality of life, and that the American medical system, such as it is, does not do that, and that there is a way to do it. So that, that was the shared belief system. And then we had to come up with a care model and product that we could bring to the market with this book that supported that mission. So I think one thing we've been very good at because of that structure is really listening to our customers and understanding how we deliver better care. And so this was not a founding insight, but I think the core insight that we've got to is that through technology, we can structure programs at scale where we can deliver this type of care at a cost where it's going to be affordable to not just the 0.1% of people anymore. And that's really exciting.

So exciting. And I really love your vision. And I love how, kind of as you say, the four of you came together around a shared philosophy. But how did you come together? Like, how did you all meet?

Yeah, I mean, the amount of serendipity in this is just wonderful, and I love it. So Tony was writing this book with Peter. And for him, there was this core realization that as part of the book, there had to be a place for people to go to action on the things he was writing. And how to bring that to life though was really a question. And so Tony is an investor in our venture fund. And Dougal and I are both very, very aligned with this mission and trying to build something. We're trying to build something in the space at the time. So through networks, we were introduced to this venture fund who said, "Hey, you guys are trying to build proactive health? Tony, Peter, meet Dougal, meet Joel. You know, you built something magical here." And so it was just, it was timing and it was luck, and it was really us out there trying to create something.

That's so, you and Dougal had known each other before, and the two of you were already out there with your ideas on health. Yeah, we were brought together by the venture fund as well.

As we were both trying to build a similar company to this, And they, they found us both and they put us together.

Wow. This venture fund should be known as a matchmaker as well as, as well as a fundraiser. That's a pretty, that's pretty impressive. And also very, um, I guess I just want to say kind of proactive about the venture fund to kind of see these things in their network and be able to make great, draw those connections and make those contacts.

Yeah. You know, I might as well just give them a shout out. So the venture fund is Thirteen and that is, that's kind of—

wait, wait, say it again. Say it again.

Their venture fund is called M13. They're here in Los Angeles, and that's really their zone of magic.

So, oh, that's amazing to, to be those kinds of connectors. Well, that's beautiful. You know, um, you were looking for an entrepreneurial pursuit, I think, but this is like not your first rodeo as an entrepreneur. When did you like realize that you had an entrepreneurial bent?

Yeah, I have always, always loved to build things and, um, at a certain point, you kind of realize that when you build something, you want people to be able to enjoy and use this thing you built. So, you know, that drive is not the same as like wanting to start a company that scales and makes money and takes investment and stuff, right? But what you kind of come to, or what I came to as I, I built things that I thought were good, is that really the only way to distribute things broadly was to to sell them, right? Otherwise, it has to be this thing you do on the side and it just doesn't work at scale. And so I had built kind of a food delivery thing with a friend of mine. We were up one night late and we're like, you know, this is kind of a pain that it's hard to figure out where we can order pizza right now. And there was no online ordering on the internet. So we went and we built this online ordering thing. We gave it to some restaurants and they loved it. They just loved it. And we just thought, hey, if we want to keep doing this, if we want this thing to keep existing, it has to be a company. We have to distribute more broadly. And so that's how I got into entrepreneurial endeavors to begin with, was really just the joy of building and wanting people to be able to use the things that I built.

Yeah, that's amazing. How old were you when that happened with you and your buddy?

I was 20, 23. 23.

Yeah. And so what happened from there? I guess I'm really curious about your background because I think that you went from you know, obviously the food delivery service, you know, sort of idea, and then to a few different experiences. And also you definitely had some time at Bulletproof Coffee. So kind of fill in the blanks for us, another celebrity founder. Let's, uh, so fill in the blanks for us.

Okay. So I've had a lot of, um, celebrity founders I've worked with, right? I've had Tony, um, Dave Asprey. Um, and I worked with Jessica Alba at Honest.

Oh, that's your niche.

Yeah.

Right. Celebrity founders.

Celebrity founders. Yeah. Um, And a lot of that's been, been, been luck, much like this endeavor with Tony. Um, but I think that celebrity founders really bring, um, really broad distribution to what you're doing and give you kind of an unfair advantage. And, um, if you're— if you really want to build something meaningful, you've got to find unfair advantages. So a little bit about, about how I got here though is, um, the food delivery company I started, we, we worked on it for 2 years and eventually kind of got to a point where we just weren't able to make it make it work for us as something that was a meaningful job. So we had to shut it down. And I wasn't really—

Was that hard, by the way? Was that hard? Yeah. To shut it down?

It was so hard. You know, when someone's using something that you created and you're, you know, when you've built something, it's so much tied up with your identity and your ego, right? It's not just— it's not just a job. It is you. And once you know people are using these things, and that means that they've put their trust, not just in your company, but in you. And to shut those things down, you have to take that away from this person who put their trust in you. And that's just like, it's gut-wrenching. It's so hard. It's so hard. But, you know, there is also just a world where like, you can't continue making zero money for your whole life, right?

That's not—

that's also not realistic. And so, and— companies run out of money, and that's what happened to us.

Yeah.

So I wasn't doing anything after that, and a friend of mine said, you know, why don't you come to Los Angeles and work on a project with me for a while? And I came down, and it was kind of like a fun adventure. Um, and, and through that, I stumbled into Honest and stumbled into, to a very early stage of what turned out to be a massive consumer brand.

Yeah.

And helped build that. Yeah. And really built a lot of muscle memory around how do you find new customers and how do you keep customers around and how do you deliver value to customers and all these things.

And just tell everybody what Honest is.

Yeah, sorry. Honest is a diaper company and it was founded by Jessica Alba and it's currently public. It grew at just a staggering pace for a consumer, consumer brand. And Let me tell you what's really cool about Honest, because it's not necessarily the financial outcomes that Honest has driven. But what was cool about Honest is when Honest came to market, diapers were largely petrochemical products. And Honest said, "Hey, we don't necessarily— we don't think this is okay. Like, these are— these things are going on our babies. They need to be healthy." By distributing those diapers broadly and really becoming successful, the entire industry reacted. And if you look at Huggies and you look at Pampers and you look at other diaper brands right now, that whole industry has changed because of what Honest did. And, you know, that's just become really such a core mantra of mine is like, can you find a way in your life where by growing top-line revenue, you're growing impact? And so that was really special about Honest. But through my time there, I mean, that was a stressful job, right? We grew that company from about $20 million in revenue to about $230 million in revenue in about 3 years. It was a very stressful job.

Yeah, I'm sure.

And I didn't— I had a PCP who was good, but like, you know what your PCP does not talk to you about? They don't talk to you about stress. They don't talk to you about sleep. They talk to you minimally about diet in that they tell you, hey, maybe you shouldn't eat junk food, right? They say, are you exercising? That's it. Nothing deeper than that. And through my time at Honest and all that stress, there was a very real health impact. And so I went to the doctor one day and I did a blood test. And the doctor was like, Joel, you're— Your sugar level is 119. And just to kind of say what that means, that means you're very, very close to being diabetic.

Hmm.

I'm like 33 at this time, right? I'm like, what the heck, right? Like, I exercise, I like think I eat pretty okay. Like, what's going on in my life? And my granddad was a type 2 diabetic. So I kind of know about what that means for your life and it's not good.

Yeah.

And so this was like this really big gut punch for me. And I knew kind of, okay, so type 2 diabetics, what do they do? They like measure their blood sugar all the time by stabbing their fingers. And so on the way home from the doctor, I stopped at the pharmacy and I, you know, went up to the pharmacy. I'm like, hey, do you have one of those finger stabby things that like the diabetics use? And they did, and they gave it to me. And I got home and I just became obsessive about measuring my sugar. And I didn't know the first thing about how stress impacts sugar. I didn't know how sleep, I didn't know any of this, but I started to notice how food impacted my sugar. And I started doing like, Before my meal, I'd stab my finger, 30 minutes after, 1 hour after, 2 hours after, 3 hours after, and then I was on internet forums and I found this world of serious geeks on the internet that were all doing the exact same thing and they were calling themselves biohackers. And I was like, "Holy smokes, this is it. This is it. This is the thing that we need to bring to scale somehow." But who knows how, right? It was a very niche, weird thing to try and figure out how to distribute.

By biohacking or can continue what turned out to be continuous glucose monitors?

Biohacking.

Because I mean, you would— like, you invented a continuous glucose monitor by yourself, right? By just by stabbing your finger every 30 minutes.

For sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the point is, like, you're on these forums in biohacking and you're realizing the idea of, like, quantified health in a way.

Exactly. There's all these people that were doing all of, all of this stuff to understand how their health was tracking, and so far ahead of what their doctor was thinking about, right? Like, they were kind of thinking about, hey, Hey, what's my sugar curve look like, like, you know, a decade before maybe I'm going to develop prediabetes, right? They're thinking about, hey, how does my sleep impact this? How does being stressed impact this? You know, how does being stressed impact, you know, my self-perceived energy levels and mental clarity? And, you know, how do I impact that? And, you know, I hadn't seen anything like this before. It just felt like this was going to be how people were going to engage with their health at some point. Yeah. But, you know, it wasn't going to be via these, um, internet forums and like people stabbing their fingers all the time, right? Like, that was too much for people. Yeah.

What year was this approximately?

That would have been maybe 2014, 2015.

2014. Yeah, sort of before the onslaught of all these things. Yeah. So is that how you got to Dave Asprey?

And that— exactly right. So then I started— I followed this all so closely, and then eventually Dave, was launching Upgrade Labs, which was going to be this proactive health center. And you go in and you get a big blood test, talk to a doctor, we put you on a plan. And, you know, honestly, totally by luck. I say that word a lot, right? Like there was serendipity here too. Dave reached out to me. He was like, hey, I'm looking for someone to help build the technology that's going to drive this. I see you helped build the technology at The Honest Company. 'Come do this with me.' And I was like, 'Oh my God, yes,' right? Yes, this is exactly the thing that I've wanted to bring to market. And so that, that's what brought me to Dave. And what was really, really cool about Upgrade Labs is that people would come in and they'd set intentions for improving their health, and they would do it. And because it was in person, you would actually get to talk to these people every week, and you'd see how improved health really improved their lives. It would improve their relationships, it would improve their work, it would just improve how happy they were. And so this was no longer personal, right? This was no longer me and my sugar and these internet forums. It was suddenly this group of people whose lives were better because their health was better because of a product that we were bringing to market. And You know, like I talked about food delivery earlier and that's cool. It's really cool when someone's using your food delivery app, like very cool. But when you manage to impact someone's quality of life positively, it just, it pulls in a different way.

Yeah.

You just realize this has to be something that I'm gonna do with my life.

Yeah. Were you, did you see signs of your drive to kind of really make an impact or have an impact on people with their health early on, or did you kind of just fall into it through your own experiences and also these experiences, like, with the folks at this company you're building with Dave?

Yeah, I think early I really found a love for, like I said, building things that people used. And I didn't know— I was always interested in health. I worked kind of in a biology lab at my university, and I was interested in health. It wasn't until really I started doing the sugar thing that the fact that there could be something better really came to light for me, right? And this was kind of like natural curiosity pairing up with my core drive to build things that create value in people's lives. And at that point, I just had the bug. I had to do it.

Yeah, yeah. So were you part of the whole Bulletproof movement with— movement with Dave too or you were just doing this company with him?

So Upgrade Labs came out of Bulletproof.

Okay.

And so we worked closely with Bulletproof but I wasn't part of Bulletproof.

Yeah, part of Upgrade Labs. I see. Okay, great. And so then Upgrade Labs, I mean, you're not still there so something happened with it and then you were kind of out trying to figure out what your next thing was. Is that the idea?

Yeah, exactly. So Upgrade Labs in person, um, COVID happened. COVID was terrible for in-person businesses. Um, we had to shut down Upgrade Labs such as it was. And the thing about Upgrade Labs is it was very expensive. You know, it was $1,500 plus a month to come engage in it. Um, being in person, it was not something we could scale broadly and I just kind of got to work thinking, what is it that we could scale broadly that's going to be able to create the same sort of impact? Um, and the conclusion I came to at the time was, okay, we can't— there's no go-to-market for this thing, but there's maybe a go-to-market around food. So maybe we could guide people into making just better, easier food choices and groceries. And that's the thing that I came to M13 with, and They said, "Joel, meet Tony. We've got something better." Oh, amazing.

So you met Tony before you even met Dougal?

Yeah, yeah. I met Tony before Dougal, yeah.

Oh, that's so funny. So wait, what was the first— I have to ask, like, Tony is such a big personality. Yeah. Take us back to the first moment you met Tony Robbins. Was it on the phone or by Zoom or was it in person? Like, what happened?

Okay, so this is a funny story because it has nothing to do with Life Force.

Yeah.

So I actually, I've never asked Tony about this. I should. Tony walked into Upgrade Labs and was like, what the heck is this thing? Wandered around, tried it all out, and gave us tickets to one of his events. That's how I first met Tony. And I, you know, I need to ask this because I've always wondered if Tony remembers that at all.

Hilarious. Yeah. Okay. So that was pre, right? And then your firm reintroduced you.

Exactly.

You're like, I was at your event. Did you go to the event, by the way?

I went to the event. And for anyone who has never been to a Tony event, I would strongly recommend going. If you have any disbelief about the value of these things, he will suspend your disbelief. They're incredible.

Yeah. Now, just for the 5 people who don't know who Tony Robbins is or what his event is, can you give us a little bit more color? And then I'd love to hear exactly, specifically, one or two insights you personally got out of the Tony Robbins event you went to.

Okay, so for the five people who don't know who Tony Robbins is, Tony Robbins is, um, call him the world's most preeminent life coach, um, crossed with motivational speaker. And I think you could— he's got an audience of about 30 million people. And I think you could say without any qualms that he's created a massive transformation through his practices in the lives of millions of people.

Yeah.

So in his events, you go— they're really designed around creating transformation. You know, you, you get up, you get down, you hug people, you reflect a lot on your meaning, what you're trying to create in the world, what you're doing, and you come out with an absolute new perspective on what you are trying to do with your life and the kind of massive transformational effort you're going to put into creating that and making it happen.

Yeah, that's very well said.

That's really what Tony does.

Yeah.

And so what have I learned from him? Tony has the most absolutely beautiful way of thinking about marketing. You know, I think a lot of people think marketing, sales, it's kind of like yucky. You're trying to tell someone to buy your thing. And Tony's value, Tony's values around this are just how do you create value in other people's lives? Like, what can you do for them that's going to create value? And if they're not buying from you yet, you have not yet created enough value in their lives So go make more value. You know, in the, in the context of Life Force, if someone's not buying from us, then like, let's, let's somehow figure out how we can engage them and tell them about what they should be doing to avoid type 2 diabetes in terms of fitness. Let's, let's talk about cholesterol with them. Let's get some value into these people's lives. And then eventually they'll come work with us because they'll understand we create value. And I think that's just the most wonderful way of thinking about selling your product to people is just create value.

Yeah, that's amazing. And I appreciate that, you know, you sort of, you, you talk about marketing from those points of view. I think sometimes people feel like marketing is somehow a dirty word or whatnot. Well, like actually to your point earlier, no one's gonna know about you and you cannot impact any lives if you don't have a system, a thought process, a philosophy around marketing. So I appreciate that you put it that way. But when you first met Tony the second time, did you, you know, sort of immediate, like, did you have any trepidation about getting into business with him? I mean, you know, he's got a lot of businesses, got a lot of rumors, reputation, right? I mean, there's plenty of stuff about him. Were you at all worried that he would overshadow you or the business? Like, what was the process like and the journey like to actually decide to go in with him? And then I'm gonna ask you the same question about Dougal. It's Dougal. Dougal is his name. Google.

Yeah, Google. Google. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

So I think there's a couple things here that are, are worth addressing. The first is that this company, such as it is, would be very, very challenging to bring to market without Tony initially, because the idea of a longevity doctor that you're adding to your life is not something people think they need or even they know they need yet, right? There's no one out there Googling, "How do I find a longevity doctor?" This isn't a category. So how on earth do you find customers without Tony? It's much harder, right? So it's a huge unfair advantage. And when you think about this audience of people that he's created massive life transformation for already, this is a marketer's dream audience. Very true. And so given the opportunity to work with someone like that, that's like a dream scenario for someone who wants to build something meaningful in the world. And that's what this was. You know, I guess I didn't know what the actual interaction would be like with Tony. I think of myself as low ego. I don't know if that's always true, but I like to think of myself that way. And if I'm building something and Tony's overshadowing me, but it's creating just tremendous value in the world and I get to be part of that, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. But working with Tony has just, has actually been a wonderful experience. He's been very differential, or deferential is the word there. He's been exceptionally trusting. He's allowed Dougal and I to do the things we need to do to build a great business that comes to market and creates scale and creates value in people's lives. And he's pushed us really hard when we've needed it. Needed it.

Yeah. What's an example? What's an example of him pushing you really hard?

Yeah. So after we'd launched, we initially got a lot of customers off of the book. And then we kind of— the customer acquisition slowed a little bit. And we had a meeting with Tony. And Tony really got into the website. To the point that he was like showing us screens and he's like, what do you think your customer understands, knows, wants out of your company at this point? Like, put yourself in someone's shoes and tell me truly that you believe this person is going to come buy this product. And he was right, right? I think that we were not doing an incredible job of that. And, you know, it really pushed us to change the messaging, the way we talk to customers, and to really put ourselves in their shoes and think about the value we provide to them. And, you know, there was a big transformation in terms of our ability to meet new customers. So that's an example that he really, really pushed on. And that, you know, we subsequently made a change based on that push.

That's great. That's a great example. Were you in the meeting, were you a little taken aback? Were you like offended? Were you like concerned? Or— because that's a hard thing to say. I mean, I have to say, when someone points out some flaws in a very direct way, That can be very challenging, especially if you're working night and day, putting your heart and soul into the business.

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard for sure. I, um, have to acknowledge that, especially when it's a company that you founded and you built. Like I said earlier, your identity is so tied up in that, and it's really hard to kind of take the criticism of what the current state of that product is and disentangle that from criticism of you.

Yeah. So true.

You have to do that though, because if you can't do that, you can't make the changes you need to eventually get better.

Yeah.

And so, yes, in that call, you know, it gives you a little bit of a feeling in your chest and it gives you a little feeling in your stomach and you think, oh geez. And you have to kind of take a step back and think, okay, like, Don't be defensive. Take this, take the value, and learn from it. And it's important.

Yeah. What strategies do you— have you learned yourself, and what advice do you have for others to be able to be dispassionate in the face of that kind of criticism?

So for me, the most valuable thing has been just being knocked on my butt, like, a lot of times, and having so many strongly held convictions around how consumers were going to behave, things that would happen with products, and then just being like, you know, pardon my French, totally fucking wrong. Like, it turned out that I was completely wrong about these things. And when that happens to you enough, you realize that what's really important is not being right, but being able to learn and move quickly based on those learnings. And it really, if you can absorb that lesson, changes the way that you approach go-to-market, changes the way you approach feedback, it changes everything.

Yeah, because what you're looking for is the truth, right? You're no longer looking to defend your point of view or to be right. You're kind of looking for the right answer.

Yeah, and you're looking to continually learn. That's so important.

Oh, so important. I agree. You know, in my, TEDx talk, that's what I talked about, the idea that to reframe being wrong as learning. So you're either winning or you're learning. And it's such an important value for any entrepreneur to have that constant learning mindset.

And I think it's also just as a leader important to frame that it's okay to be wrong. Um, if you don't set that frame, then you do, you lose this kind of learning mentality across your whole team. So—

Totally true.

So important.

How do you— I was going to get to your team. Who is on your team right now? And how do you translate that, you know, sort of, it's okay to be wrong and we're here to learn environment?

Yeah. So, we have this incredible team and the reason that Life Force has an incredible team is to— Dougal's absolute superpower. Is meeting and recruiting just people that we have absolutely no right to hire at this stage of the company.

That's great.

And so they're just a really, really strong team because of that. And, you know, the way that I think about it is just modeling the behavior. We do a lot of test and learn at Life Force. I have been dramatically wrong about what I thought about customer behavior at Life Force often enough. And, you know, to be able to sit down and say, hey, this is what I thought was going to happen. Totally wrong about that. Here's our learnings and here's what we're going to do next. It's something that I think translates really well across a whole group of people working with you.

Yeah, for sure. So you're saying like debriefing and reviewing where you were right and where you were wrong and letting people weigh in?

Yeah, and absolutely having guilt-free retrospectives around this stuff. Like, it's totally okay to be wrong. We're fine with that.

Yeah. How do you—

We learn something.

Yeah. No, that's really great. I'd love to hear how you run your retrospectives because that's something that I think not enough companies do. Is that something that you all do as a habit? Is that part of your culture? Tell us about how you handle retros.

Yeah. So, this comes from my background building software because, you know, when software teams are structured in this, like, somewhat rigid, like, you do things for a while, then you get together and talk about how it went, that you could do things again, then you get together and talk about how it went. And, you know, I think of this as a really missing aspect of accountability in a lot of organizations is there's kind of two pieces to this. The first is the decision-making piece. And that's really kind of around what is the why we're going to do everything. If we're going to do something, there's a why we're going to do it. Let's talk about what we hope to get out of it. And then when we set that why and the what we hope to get out of it, that's a good time to say this is going to be the right time to get back together and talk about what we learned from it. And, you know, what we learned from it might be that that thing we did was amazing, right? We've had some things that we did at Life Force that were just incredible wins. But what we learned from it also might be, wow, that really didn't work. It was a complete faceplant. And then that gives you learnings that you can use to figure out the next thing you're going to do. And so it's really about creating this structure. And I think about this as a really defensible and really reproducible behavioral thing that you can create at companies. Because it's not hard to just say, here's the framework, and then behave like that.

Yeah. And the framework is just— what's the sort of— walk us through the framework again. Yeah.

Okay. So the framework is, before you're going to go embark on any endeavor, it could be anything you're going to do. Just give it a why, say what you expect, and then set a time to come back to it. That's it. Then come back to it, ask, did it do the thing we expected? And either way, if it did or if it did not, what did we learn from that?

I love it. But how do you create psychological safety around that? Because people don't like to admit that they were wrong, they made mistakes, or that it didn't work out as expected. So how do you make sure that people are honest about that and also don't get punished around that?

Yeah. So the way to kind of do that in my mind is one, you do need a reasonably strong practice of analytics, right? Like when you embark on something, you want to set a set of metrics that you're going to get to, and then the data should speak to whether or not that thing worked. So that way there's a little bit less subjectivity in it. And then—

Yeah. Is there an example you can think of inside of Life Force that you've used that's like—

I can think of something that I thought was really important in Life Force that just like totally face-planted. And I can tell you about it.

Yeah. Yeah.

So you went through this process with us and the process is we send a phlebotomist to your house, we draw your blood, we write you a report on that, we put you with a doctor, and then we write you another report. And so that first report after you get your blood back, it used to be very, very, very long. It was really long. And as we started talking to customers, we got this really consistent feedback that I didn't read that whole thing. Like, it was way too long. It was extremely overwhelming to me. And it kind of created a block in my ability to take the next step with you, which is to meet with a doctor. And so we dropped there. And so we came up with a theory that instead of having this long report, we would just say, your next step is to meet with our Life Force doctor and then have a link to schedule that. And based on my customer conversations, I felt very high conviction on this. It was almost a disaster. The people who didn't get any report or who just were told to meet with their doctor were significantly, like half as likely to engage with us on any sort of actual plan, recurring plan. They spent way less money when they did. Like it, if we just rolled it out, it would've broken our business.

Wow. And you, but you tested it, you did like A/B testing or whatever?

Exactly, yeah, we did A/B testing around it. And so then we got back together and, A lot of us were surprised, and myself included. And the retro then became, well, what did we learn about it? And what we learned about it was that something in that report, something in that report was enough for a customer to get a nugget about what was coming and start to engage. Rather than having nothing to engage in, they could think, OK, well, hmm, my vitamin D is low. Maybe I should think about vitamin D right now while I'm excited about getting this blood test back, and then I'll still talk to the doctor. And that was a really important learning for us. So what we did is we just wrote, we just moved to writing a little report that was very digestible, that would give customers a couple actions that they should take. And that's worked really, really well. That's actually been a win. But in order to get there, we had to take that big loss first.

Yes, yes. And so, wow, that's powerful. So you were explaining how Analytics are helpful in terms of creating psychological safety and safety for people to really interrogate what happened without feeling people attached or whatever. Are there other ways? I mean, really, I'm looking for advice for other founders and other leaders. How else do you create the conditions where you can have an honest conversation about what happened, a retro, and not have people feel bad or feel defensive and ultimately use it as use it to learn and win for the company. What other advice do you have?

So, my first piece of advice is, as a leader, you should always acknowledge publicly when the things that you've pushed on don't work out, because that models that behavior for that team that it's okay. If you are always saying, "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right," that models a different behavior. And the reality is you are not always right, right? So, there is this certain cognitive dissonance between a leader at your company consistently saying, "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right," and then a team of people being aware that's not true. So, acknowledging these things when you think something, even if it's a very strongly held conviction, you're wrong is important. The second thing that I think about a lot is the decision-making process that goes into doing something is really important. If you don't create good consensus around decision-making upfront, then things you do become someone's thing rather than our thing. And someone's thing is never healthy because if that thing doesn't work out, it's someone's fault rather than our learning. And so I think that the decision-making process upfront is so important if you want people to feel safe about wanting to do things and wanting to put ideas out and create things.

Yeah. When you say decision-making process and then you say consensus, I mean, I always have mixed feelings about consensus, but you have to air it all out so that at some point, even if you don't agree, you felt heard. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. So consensus is the wrong word there. I know companies are not democracies, right? Someone has to make a decision ultimately about what we're going to do. But the way that I always think about this is every time you say no to a project, it's one no. Every time you say yes to a project, it's 50 nos. And a lot of those nos, those implicit nos, are something that someone cares about a lot that you're not doing. So, you know, creating this behavior of looking at all the things that matter to people, that people believe are important that you're working with, and then being very explicit about, this is what we're going to do. That means we're not going to do these things. And here's the reason why. But I did hear your argument about why we should do that is important. And that's kind of what creates this atmosphere where things we do are us rather than this person.

Yeah, that is beautiful. And I think it's so important to do that work. It's a hard work of management, actually. And it's hard work, right? Because really, there's too much going on to have to communicate like that, but you have to. And I especially love what you said. Every yes is 50 nos, as in the things that you're not doing. And we don't think of it that way. We always think, "Oh, one more, one more." Actually, one of my guests, my first guest, Matthew Bloomberg, the founder of Return Path, he talked about the French fry theory. There's always room for one more French fry. Like, "Oh no, I'm full. I can't have any more." "Oh, one more French fry." There's always room for one more French fry. And that is very problematic in companies because you keep throwing one more french fry, one more french fry at people and they at some point get overpowered. So the notion of really having to be ruthless about what you say yes to, I think, is so significant.

Yeah. And that kind of comes to— I think my biggest learning in my career is the value of focus. And when I'd started Snack Panda, which was the food delivery company, I was working on like 3 other things. And I always look back at that and think, if I had just focused on this one thing, we had a wonderful product. People that used it loved it, but we couldn't get the distribution. So what if I'd spent an extra 20 hours a week making phone calls and talking to restaurant owners? I think it would have become something really magical. And so that was my first kind of, my first kind of experience with focus. And then what I've really learned is that you can manage a certain amount of concurrent things and it's not necessarily all that big. And sometimes, you know, doing one thing and finishing it is better than not finishing 5 things.

Yes. Yes. And as in like, you know, the notion of completion and also the satisfaction and the drive to get there.

Yeah. And then you get to the 5 things with French Fry Theory, right? It's like, oh, I think we could also do that. I think we could also do that. And you very quickly find that you're not actually completing things and delivering value.

Right. Totally. No, it's so true. So there's a lot of, I think, management gold here. I'm just curious, like, having been inside companies and built startups, you know, how did you— I guess I kind of wanna know how you learned management skills, but also what were the What were the easiest management skills and what were the most difficult?

Yeah, I think if you were to go back and do a retrospective with everyone I've managed in my career, you would probably find that me learning management skills was a bit pulling teeth. I was very, very reticent around it. And the reason was because I kind of grew up building things and being a builder and doing things. And, you know, I had this idea in my mind of leaders as like leading by example and managing by example. And so, you know, to try and manage teams, I would just like go try and do a massive output of work. And that felt like the right thing to do for me. And it was really, really tied up in my identity as a manager that I was like, oh, I'm a great manager because I'm really like doing this work and setting this example. And, um, then at one point I had a coach who said, what you're doing, this thing that— this thing you're doing is extremely counterproductive. Um, and that was— it was hard to hear, right? Because this was my identity that I created for myself. Um, and did your coach explain why it was counterproductive?

By the way, score one for coaching, as always. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. I think back on the folks that I've had as coaches in my life, and I was always very resistant to having them as coaches. I will admit this. And I will also say very freely that I would not have the skill set I have today without really strong coaching. So, you know, I was grateful for that.

Yeah. But why? I appreciate that very much on behalf of all of coaches everywhere and all our dealing with defensive clients. Yes. But what was like, can you like be specific what was counterproductive about this style? Because it does sound great. Like, oh, I'm setting a good example and whatnot. But ultimately, like, it disempowers your people, right?

Yeah. It becomes extremely disempowering. And it becomes this kind of thing where people don't feel agency. And, you know, what I've really come to is that in a world of creative endeavors, the, the way to get the most out of people is to find their zone of magic and find what drives them, and then give them agency to create those outcomes. And then when I, when I would get in and just do things like go, go and make changes or whatever, it was completely disempowering. It completely removed of their agency. And if you're someone who cares about your work and takes pride and is good at something, there's nothing less motivating than someone just jumping in and changing your thing kind of willy-nilly. So, yeah, it was just, it was a terrible, terrible management style. There was a, in probably the worst, the worst management moment of my career, and this is maybe in 2013, I was managing this team of software engineers. And I was really unhappy with the thing they'd built. And so one night I just stayed at work all night long and rebuilt it.

Wow.

And, you know, I still remember the person who was kind of the lead on that project coming in the next day and being like— this is a very embarrassing story for me. I think, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe that that was a behavior I adopted. The manager of like the person the lead on that team came in and, you know, was like, I can't believe you did that to us. And it was this really this moment of, for me, of, okay, I need to change my behaviors.

Yeah, a real look in the mirror, right? Yeah, you're not alone. And I appreciate you sharing that with us because that's also a very builder, you know, entrepreneur is builder. Kind of behavior and it feels like the most natural thing to do. And then you sort of see the imp— like, see, that's what being a manager is, right? You see the repercussions of all the people that you had touched, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And you care about those people, right? And you see the pain that you create when you do that.

Totally. And so what— I guess I would be curious, there's probably some— you've already shared some ideas, but how has your management skills How have your management skills changed and your style changed as you've gotten more mature? Like, what would you kind of— how would you articulate your management and leadership philosophy now?

Yeah, so I think I've touched on this a little bit, but when I first started in sort of any sort of management role was after having built and failed at two companies where, you know, it was just a group of us building a SaaS product, on the phone trying to sell that SaaS product. There was no real management. We just had to get along well enough to do this thing. And then I jumped into Honest, and we grew that team a lot from when I started. I think when I started, I think we had 4 people and we grew it to about 50. So, all of a sudden I had to, there was a whole new skill set here that I did not have, right? And that, that I thought I had. I really did think I had. I thought that I could just lean in and be this builder guy, but I didn't have. And so, when I kind of think about this transition, it started really as like this lead by example builder. And then I realized that was not the right thing to do and kind of moved to a world where I believed my goal was to empower people to do work that they're good at. And then over time, kind of learned, kind of found that folks who joined would all just have these unique superpowers. And I really see my role now as getting to what that unique superpower is and creating an environment where they could put that superpower to work to create unfair advantage for our company. And that's a totally different thing than being a builder, right?

Totally, totally. You know, I think what people don't really understand, what employees who become managers or become senior managers and leaders don't always understand, is that they have to undergo a psychological transformation. About what their goals are, about how they get satisfaction from work. Because when you're a builder, you put your stuff together and you're just building. But now suddenly you're managing people. And actually, to your point, you're creating the conditions. You know, I had Seth Godin on this podcast and we talked extensively about the idea of creating the conditions for people to do the best work of their lives. It's not your work, it's their work. Your job is to create the conditions. And that sometimes feels, you know, like when you go in and reprogram the thing or do the work for them, then it is your work. And when you are creating the conditions, it can feel like there is no work there. But actually, it is a lot of work of tilling the soil and tilling the environment.

Yeah, it is a lot of work, and it is a lot of realizing that creating really wonderful things requires a lot of trust.

Yes. Which is really hard. So given all that, and I think that's really true, it requires a lot of trust. Nonetheless, sometimes people do not hold up their end of the bargain and they don't do a good job. How have you kind of come to understand how you hold people accountable and yet not completely snuff out their spirit? And at times realize you have to part ways with them. Like, how do you sort of handle that part of management, which everyone finds uncomfortable?

Yeah, uncomfortable. And I think the challenge I always have with this is when we hire someone into a job and they don't do well there, that is to a large extent a situation that I created, right? And like, did I create that by being a poor manager? Sometimes, yes. Did I create that by hiring the wrong person? Sometimes yes. But it's challenging to look in the mirror and say, okay, this situation, which is now a problem, is a situation I created. And the outcome here is going to negatively impact someone else's life, right? That's the challenge with it, is it's a situation you created, which is going to negatively impact someone else. And that's really, really challenging to deal with. I guess the thing I've really learned is that you cannot let those things go on. When there's someone who's not in the right role, who's not doing things well or like really exhibiting their superpower or whatever it is, if you don't deal with it, it's not just a negative outcome in their lives. It's a negative outcome in the whole team's lives. And, you know, I'm sure you have sat over a dinner table at some point and had someone just like tell you how terrible their day at work was because of a coworker, because of a manager, because of a work situation. And so if you don't deal with it, you are allowing all of the other people on your team who you care about to experience that. And I think that's a really, really important reframe, is that there's a problem and it's negatively affecting a group of people's lives you care about. And so you just have to deal with it.

Yes. That's beautifully said. That is such a real reframe. Like you said, it's a reframe. But how do you always know? So I think sometimes leaders don't always know what they should be seeing, what they are seeing. Some people think it's good, some people don't think it's good. I think that some of the— if someone's a terrible performer, performer and they're just not even showing up to work and they're just not delivering anything, you're like, "Okay, this is pretty clear." But there are often times where it's not so clear. Have you experienced when there's a performer who's not so clear and then how do you go about figuring that out?

Yeah. I would be lying if I were sitting here and telling you I was good at this. We're all learning. Right. We're all learning. It's a thing that you have to think about though, right? For me, the most important channel here is the one-on-ones you have with your whole team. And to make those work, there needs to be a very, very high degree of trust. And, you know, I think everyone should ask themselves, for this person on my team, if there was a problem, would they tell me or would they not tell me? And I think The reality is you're probably going to think they would tell you 80% of the time. They would probably tell you 40% of the time.

I agree. Having asked that question of people inside of organizations for 2 decades, I can exactly agree with what you just said. Yeah.

And so then you have to kind of get back to, this is my only sensing mechanism for this. You know, you don't have another sensing mechanism. So what are you going to do to foster that relationship to move that 40% to 60%? And, you know, there's— I'm sure there's people out there who are exceptional managers who've got this really high and got this sorted out. But, you know, for me, I have to accept there's going to be some level of me missing the sensing of what's happening. And then it's an imperfect decision-making framework.

Yeah. But you talked a lot about trust and I totally agree with you. It does come down to trust. How do you build trust with employees, like consistently and over time so that, so that you have better shot of them telling you what's going on? Yeah.

So the, the thing that I think is most important is when someone tells you something, you have to acknowledge it and take action. Um, I, I think that it's, it's so common to hear about something and then do nothing about it. And, you know, I've done this, I've been guilty of it, I've seen other folks do it, and nothing erodes trust like someone telling you there's an issue and then you just not taking action on it. So, you know, the, the kind of core practice I have around this is I just— I, I, I use Notion. I keep notes on all of my one-on-ones. I look at my one-on-one notes before the 101. I take notes during, I read them afterwards, and then I have a set of actions that I need to take, and I ask people to hold me accountable to take action on them. Um, so I think that is my most important practice around it. The second thing though is you have to, you have to kind of back to this idea of putting people in their superpower and giving them agency. People won't trust you unless you do that. You have to allow people to find their zone of superpower at your company, your organization, and really exhibit that. Because when they do, then they get joy out of their job. And kind of at this point, when you get joy out of your job, it becomes a much more trusting environment.

Yeah, totally. It's so true. And so then do you— I guess what I'm curious about is if you can help someone find their zone of genius inside of the company, they still need coaching. They still need to expand, right? And grow. How do you think about that when someone's kind of in, like, doing their best work and their superpower? How do you then think about coaching that person?

Yeah. So I think back to this superpower thing, my favorite analogy is There's this, um, there's this hockey player. Um, I'm a hockey fan. So there's this hockey player and his name was Brett Hall and he's in the Hall of Fame. And, um, he was, it was one of the best hockey players of all time. And he's like kind of candidly kind of a crappy hockey player.

Wow.

And, um, so his story is interesting. He, he's in kind of, he's 15, 16 years old. It's not a great hockey player. And he said he really wants to make it in the NHL. Really wants to become a professional hockey player. And his coach at the time says, hey, what are you good at? You're good at kind of like hanging around on the ice in a place where people aren't noticing you, getting the puck and scoring a goal. That's what you're good at. You're not very good at skating. You're not very good at understanding what's going on in the hockey game. You're not very good at passing and you're not very good at defending. You're not very good at hockey, but you are pretty good at this one thing. And he got, he got incredible. At this one thing. He got just like so good at this one thing that he's one of the highest scorers in NHL history. And so having this guy on the ice kind of guaranteed that you were going to get a goal. And so he never got good at the other things, right? He, he got exceptional at this one thing, which is able to deliver just incredible alpha for any team that he was on. And so this is where you kind of come back to superpowers for a second, right? There are kind of 3 categories of skills that I think about. One is wherever someone's kind of zone of magic is. And you have to ask, okay, how do we use this to create outsized alpha? And how do we get you from A to A++++ at this thing that you are just magical at? Then there's a set of skills which if you can't do them at a baseline level, they're just kind of going to harm your ability to get anything done in an organization. You know, like, personally, I'm a crappy project manager. I'm very bad at it. But if I can't do it at all, the organizations I work with are not going to get anything done, right? So, there is a set of skills that you kind of need to get to a baseline level. And then there's a third set of skills, which are the set of things that like you can layer other people around to fill the holes. And I think it's really important with everyone to have a map of what all these things are. And then individually kind of addressing them. And, you know, kind of the way that I think about it is kind of offering the opportunities to, to improve these things. Um, you know, you can't make people get better at something.

So true.

You just have to give them the opportunity to get better at it and the environment where they can, and give them the feedback that it's a thing that they could either improve on because of— it's a baseline thing, or because it's their zone of magic, and it's the thing that's going to make them absolute, just incredible, like Hall of Fame hockey players or whatever.

Right, exactly. Exactly. That's amazing. I love that framework. You know, Joe, I really have to ask you, what is your superpower?

Yeah, so I think this is a fun topic. Dougal and I are, I think they're, you know, you kind of alluded to before this, you wanted to talk about like founder relationships and stuff. Yeah. We really work well together because our superpowers are quite different from each other. So my superpower is really around kind of this idea of how do you take a consumer product or a product where there's a lot of uncertainty around what's going to work and not work and put a framework around improving that and taking structured bets. And this has come from the fact that I've just spent my whole life kind of building things, showing them to people, and then you know, getting knocked on my butt when they didn't work, being very, very high on myself when they did, right? So, um, this, this idea of like, how do you structure a decision-making and feedback process around, around continual improvement? And then specifically, how do you do it in a consumer business? Um, you know, and that just comes from hundreds of late nights at Honest saying, how the heck do we make this company make money?

Yeah.

And then I think, you know, to touch quickly on, you know, how Dougal complements a set of places where I'm not so strong and how that helps kind of— and I think this is a good framework for anyone— is it's really wonderful to kind of find someone who complements you where you're not as strong. Dougal's background was as a chief of staff and he's just exceptional at thinking about high-performance organizations, feedback, how do you think about organizational communication structures, and, you know, how do you think about kind of getting— making people be accountable for and delivering on project plans as well, which is, you know, as I kind of identified earlier, I'm not very good at project plans. So, um, together we kind of, we kind really complement each other's skill sets. And I think that's really helpful.

That's amazing. And appreciate each other for it, obviously. Yeah. I did wanna circle back to Dougal because the other question I had, you know, way back at the beginning when we talked about, you know, how you met Tony and how you met Dougal, when you first met Dougal, your firm, sorry, M13, is that who they are?

Yeah. M13. That's right.

Okay. M13. So M13 introduced you and Tony, and then they introduced you and Dougal, and they're so magical. And so, you met Dougal and it was love at first sight. Like, how did you go through the process of deciding, okay, yeah, we're gonna do this thing together? Like, I have in my book From Startup to Grownup the co-founder prenup, which I think everyone should use, about like talking through in advance, you know, values and, you know, what— how you handle conflict and sort of personality traits. And I'm just curious, how much of that did you two do naturally before you decided to do this together?

Yeah, so for starters, I love this, this kind of line of thought. This being kind of the third co-founder relationship I've been in, I think it cannot be overstated, the importance of that relationship to the quality of your life. Like, it cannot be overstated. You know, I think I read once that people identify the relationship with their manager is more important to their mental health than relationship with their spouse. The relationship with your co-founder is 10x that. Like, you will be thinking about the relationship with that person when they're not around. You'll probably have dreams about that person. Like, the importance of this relationship to your mental health, to the quality of life, and to the outcomes of the thing you're building are just— cannot be overstated. Now, obviously, our situation was a bit unique because we were, you know, introduced buy a venture fund with an opportunity. So we spent some time getting to know each other, really around what are our values, what do we think we're good at.

Wait, let me interrupt you. Did you actually ask each other that question? Like, "Hey, Joel, what are your values?" "Oh, Google, here are my values. What are your—" Was it like that or just spending time together and getting to know each other and imputing values? We did.

And, you know, I can't take credit for this. It was really— Dougal is an extremely thoughtful person in terms of how he thinks about his decision-making in his personal life. And if I'm being candid, I try and be very thoughtful about decision-making frameworks and companies and how groups of people make decisions together. But in my personal career, I very much just allowed curiosity and joy of building to guide me. I have not been very thoughtful. So he was the one who kind of sat down and said, okay, we're going to have to tolerate each other and hopefully like really get along and we're going to go through the lows together, we're going through the highs together. Like, you know, what are the things you care about? And, you know, I kind of, it's funny, like I don't even really remember what we talked about. I remember kind of sitting at a table at a cafe and him kind of asking these questions and I said something and I— but we came out of it and we thought, okay, we have a short amount of time to decide if we could build this thing together because Tony's writing a book, it's going to be written, there needs to be a product ready when this thing is written. So, you know, we can't muck around for a month here and figure this out. We've got a really short amount of time, and we came out of that just saying, yeah, this is a thing we can build together.

And how much conviction did you have at that time? Like, oh, Dougal's it, he's my guy.

Really high conviction. So actually, um, the— there was, uh, you know, with M13, you had to figure out who the right co-founders were, right? So there was a couple other founders, um, potentially on the table, and, you know, after that conversation with Dougal, I just really went to bat that Dougal was definitely the right person for this.

So. That's neat. That's so cool. And how do you now keep your co-founder relationship in good shape?

Yeah, so I think we're both, we're lucky that we're two people who have practices of reasonably good self-reflection. And that's helpful. We're lucky that we're both people who are reasonably good at taking feedback. You know, I say, I use the word reasonably because, you know, there's always a feeling when someone gives you negative feedback. But we are reasonably good at taking feedback. And I think both of us have at some point had to deliver feedback around what the other person is doing. And, you know, we've been good at digesting that and moving on and figuring out how to take that and improve ourselves based on it. So, that practice really did come down to a certain amount of luck around— I've used that word so many times, but there's a certain amount of luck around both of us being the type of people that enjoy that type of practice.

Yeah. Do you have regular co-founder meetings? Do you have regular— another practice that I encourage people to do is have conflict meetings in case there's anything that we're brewing. We want to just have a meeting to get it all out. Or any other specific practices to keep the love there?

Yeah, so we spend a whole day each week just with each other.

A day a week, even working together, like coworking?

Yeah, coworking, but you know, we mostly block those days off. Like we might have one or two other meetings on those days, but we mostly block those days off to really be present and talk about kind of what is highest on the other person's mind or our mind at that time. You know, the idea of a conflict meeting, I love that. I think we can take that away and use it. Yes. Slot that into our days. But so we do consciously take one whole day a week on that. And I would encourage anyone to invest really, really, really heavily in this relationship. And it, you know, I've said for your own mental health, I think that's true. I think it matters a lot, but for the effectiveness of the team as well, because, you know, The most destructive thing in the world for a team is when one founder says one thing and the other founder says something different. So true. And you cannot, you just cannot allow that to happen. You have to be so on the same page.

Yes. So well said. So I completely agree. And that relationship is so important. You have to invest the time. It's so important. Joel, just like 3 more questions. One about imposter syndrome. Have you experienced imposter syndrome or severe self-doubt in your journey And how have you overcome it?

Yeah, I mean, yes, I think—

Joel's like, no, never.

No, I, um, I don't know that this is true, but I think, I think everyone feels that. Um, you know, it is, it's very common. And in your career, you will meet and work with people who have been very successful and have done really amazing things. You're gonna sit in the room with them and you're gonna have to convince yourself that your opinion is worthy of being taken seriously with that person. Um, and that's hard. And you also need to convince yourself that this thing you're doing is something you could do. No matter what you do in an organization, any role, it's not just leadership roles. There's a group of people who are counting on you to do that thing and do it very well. And you have to believe you could do it to some extent. And that could be hard, right? It could be scary. It should be scary, right? If it's not a little bit scary that your execution is going to have an impact on other people's lives and the quality of their lives, then you're a sociopath. That should be scary. And, you know, this is— whenever I talk about this often with friends, the thing that always comes up for me is really a practice of self-reflection. Most people have had pretty, pretty interesting experiences in their career. Like, if you sit down and you say, okay, like, what are the things that I've done? What do I know? What do I understand? Now versus 5 years ago, 10 years ago, you will discover that you are so much more than you were 5 years ago, 10 years ago. And you will discover that that experience could bring value. And I think that's, that's so important because without that self-confidence, you won't deliver on the things that people need you to deliver so that they can do the things that they need to do.

Totally. So well said. That's so beautifully said. I really appreciate that. Self-reflection and just acknowledging kind of how far you've come. That's amazing. I think a very good antidote to imposter syndrome. Joel, what do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

Yeah, I think this is where I come back to focus. I said this before. Focus was not something I understood early in my journey. It's something that, you know, many of the things I've missed on in my life is because I did not manage to deliver enough focus. Many of the organizational problems that happened in organizations I worked with was because I didn't manage to create enough organizational focus on things. You know, I was very often guilty of this thing that you called the French fry syndrome. Saying, "Hey, we're going to— okay, great. Let's do one more thing," and then not delivering on anything. Or maybe one of those things got done, but it wasn't the highest priority, wasn't the most valuable thing. And that's just very destructive.

Totally. No, it's totally the same.

If I could just go to 23-year-old Joel and said, "All right, you need to cut the things you're doing." and you need to focus on what matters, I think that there would've been different outcomes in some of those things. Focus, people.

Joel's right, focus, focus, focus, focus. I love it. And last question, what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journeys to grow into leaders?

Yeah, so I think everyone's journey here is unique. You know, there's, at Life Force, we talk about health all the time, right? We sit around and talk about like what you eat and what you exercise and like, you know, what supplements you take. And we talk about this all the time. We talk a lot about how, you know, the right diet is not the same for every person and the right exercise regimen is not the same for every person. And like everyone's journey here is different. Some people are, you know, very mindful. They participate in growth groups. They do that. Some people are curious builders and they just like, lean into consistently learning and making things. Some people are connectors. And depending on who you are, find a way that your path leans into the thing that you love. Because, you know, you've only got a certain amount of time in your life, in your career to do things. And God, if you don't enjoy it and it's not a wonderful journey, find something else. So true.

Joel, wise words. Thank you so much for this great discussion. I know people are gonna benefit so much from it, and I just really appreciate you sharing all your wisdom.

Thank you so much for having me on. This is great.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website. AlisaCohn.com.