#53, Gareb Shamus, Founder of ACE Comic Con— Going from passion to product, how to keep yourself ...

Welcome to From Startup to Grownup, the podcast. My name is Alisa Cohn.

I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup.

Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors, and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup.

Welcome back to From Startup to Grownup, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Garib Shammas to the podcast.

Garab is a superhero visionary. You don't hear that very often.

He's best known for being the founder of Comic-Con, which is the largest comic, sci-fi, and fantasy event in the world. Now, there's an expression that I love, which is, "Show me the child and I'll show you the adult." And that was absolutely true in my conversation with Garab. We talked about his childhood and how he and his brothers collected sports cards, then traded them, then started attending comic book and sports card shows with his father. It was Garab's mother who got the idea to start their own store. So Garab literally grew up inside of a comic book store. From there, he created the very first magazine where collectors could gather news and even more importantly, prices of comics. This was pre-internet.

And we talked about how he got from there to building up Comic-Con.

We discussed the importance of luck and how so much of the key to entrepreneurship and really so much of career success is to stay in the game until you get your lucky break. We talked about specifically what Garab's lucky break was. We also discussed the incredible thing his father told him when he tried to quit the magazine and how that changed his life. I love this discussion so much, but one thing that stands out is how Garab was most excited about creating a haven for geeks and nerds before that was a cool thing to call someone. Garab was really about inclusion and letting people fulfill on their own self-expression. Gareb's had a fascinating life and he's an incredible storyteller, and you're going to love this conversation. So please enjoy my incredible conversation with Gareb Shammas, founder of Comic-Con.

Gareb, welcome to the show.

So happy to be here.

I'm so excited to have you. Very excited. And I want to start by reading from your LinkedIn bio. This is very inspiring. This is what you've written about yourself in your LinkedIn bio. Garib is a visionary in the superhero and character-based franchise worlds. Through the last 30 years, he's made a tremendous impact on geek and nerd culture and formed relationships with an unrivaled collection of artists, writers, toy developers, game designers, and celebrities. My goodness.

Yeah, that, that sums it up pretty well. Is that what you wanted to be when you grew up when you were a kid? No, I, I didn't really have any aspirations, uh, from that standpoint. I just— my parents always were like, just get a great education and then you could do whatever you want with that. And luckily, I had a very fun childhood. I had 3 brothers, so we grew up collecting sports cards and comic books.

Yeah.

And it just took us into that realm. And as a, as a family and as a, as fun and as a business. And I just decided to pursue that. Yeah, I kind of fell into it, but I fell into it because I had a very open family life.

Right.

You know, that was welcoming to the things that me and my brothers brothers love to do.

Right. So you, you, you have 3 brothers total. You're, you're one of 3.

Yeah.

I'm number 2. Number 2 of 3. And you're, you and I think also your father were, got really into collecting cards. Right. Can you talk about that?

Yeah. So it actually started with me and my older brother and my younger brother. We were collecting sports cards like crazy as kids.

Mm-hmm.

And then we kind of got outta that phase and my youngest brother basically inherited our collection and then he started buying and selling them and making a lot of money with our cards. Incredible. That we worked very hard to flip Right. So how old was he when he did that? He was probably like 7 or 8 at the time. I mean, he was very—

What's he doing now?

Well, he works with me on the Comic Cons. Okay. And, uh, but he's always been an incredible business guy. Mm-hmm. Even as a kid, he was just extraordinary that way. And yeah, so he started buying and selling and then all of a sudden we started going to the sports card stores and then sports card shows. And then it just became like a fun family business where we started going to the shows every weekend. And then once we were in the stores buying cards, they had some comic books. So we said, hey, let's check out the comic books. And that was a very exciting world for us. And really, that's what got me into it. Because at the time, my dad and me and my 3 brothers, we were all into sports like crazy. And once I discovered comic books and superheroes, I completely shifted my focus into that realm.

Away from sports.

Yeah. Yeah, I kind of gave up on the sports. It doesn't mean that I don't know what's going on, but I certainly— wasn't that deep sports fan like I used to be. I kind of pushed all that attention into the superhero space.

Yeah. So I can definitely understand that it was like fun collecting cards and collecting comic books. I totally get that. But I'm just— when you also mentioned that you had just like an open-minded set of parents who were also open, was there other ways that they showed up as open?

Yeah, they were always very, um, whatever pursuit that we had, whatever hobby we were interested in, they said, okay, try it. Like, they never really, uh, were hesitant to enable us or allow us to try something. So if we wanted to play music— my brother played guitar, you know, he played for a little bit, didn't like it. You know, I grew up riding horses, I grew up bowling, um, and, you know, we got into sports cards and comics, and we played, you know, golf. I mean, it was like, it was just like one of these things where we we just, whatever pursuit we had, um, as long as the number one thing was that we were educated.

Yeah.

That we went to school, that we did well, that we took it serious. And my parents always had this philosophy that, um, with your education, it's the one thing in life that no one could ever take away from you.

Yeah.

As long as you have that, you could do anything you want.

Yes. That's amazing. So when you were doing those things, um, you know, your discretionary activities or your little hobbies as a kid, if you quit, that was okay. Started it, that was okay. You quit, that was okay. There was just like no judgment.

It was okay. It wasn't easy though. It was almost like you need to justify it. It wasn't a judgmental thing. It's like, why are you quitting? You know? And quite frankly, I was actually pretty good at those things. You know, I was a championship horseback rider and jumper. Um, in bowling, I maintained over 200-plus average. I was actually a professional as a teenager because I was in the men's leagues. Wow. With my brothers. Yeah, we'd actually bowl for money, so I couldn't play not that I was ever going to be a professional bowler in that regard. But yeah, so from that standpoint, it was good. I, I really enjoyed golf. Um, I, I got pretty good for an amateur. I mean, certainly I was not on a path for professional.

Yeah.

But, uh, almost every pursuit that we had, you know, the deeper we got into it, the more fun it became.

Yeah.

So, and my parents always understood that. So, so the reason for leaving would have been something that you just didn't enjoy or you outgrew it. And we definitely did.

Yeah. No, that makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. So there you were in meshing yourself, immersing yourself in cards and comic books. And then am I correct that your mom said, let's open a store or something like, how did that happen?

Yeah. It became such a big family business. We were buying and selling sports cards. We were going to, uh, conventions or sports card shows literally every weekend. And we had accumulated so much stuff. It was like, hey, why don't we open up a retail store? And, you know, that, that's when we got the bug, and that's what my mom did full-time. And, you know, so after school we'd go to the store, weekends we'd work at the store. I mean, it was just— I mean, imagine literally having like a candy store in the family. That's what it was. We were opening up packs, we got the new comics in, you know, we were discussing what was going on in the superhero world. I mean, I mean, it was literally the most fun you could possibly have. Yeah, being in business.

Yeah, that's incredible. Like you said, it was like, like a candy store, like a comic book store for kids. And you— that was your reality?

Yeah, my reality was the new comics came in and we got to read them before everybody else. And the new cards came in and we didn't get— we didn't have to pay retail, we paid wholesale, right? We got to see them ahead of time. So, and then we'd go to the card shows and meet all the biggest sports athletes in the world because they were signing autographs. So in my childhood, I got to meet Mickey Mantle and Muhammad Ali and You name it, I got to meet some of the biggest names in the world as a kid. So, you know, imagine growing up and getting to meet these icons. You just get a whole new perspective of the world.

Yes.

You know, when you come in contact with people like that, and it just gives you this vision that, that look at this greatness right before you, you know, these people are here, they're real, and wow, you know, it's possible to be that in life.

Interesting. So they served as role models for you in a way.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, when I met Muhammad Ali, I was in my teenage years, and at the time he was the most famous person in the world.

Yeah.

Like, because of, you know, the boxing, you know, he was just, you know, globally famous. And to meet Mickey Mantle, who—

Incredible.

—had just retired basically, and, and to meet, you know, all the contemporary Mets and Yankees, you know, and they're, they're, they're showing up to these events and they're wearing their World Series rings. I mean, it's just, it's incredible. That's incredible to see that. And as a kid, you know, these icons are larger than life, right? You know, because whenever you kind of go back in time and you look at— you go visit your elementary school, you don't remember the desk being so small, right? You know, and like back then, you know, these people were, you know, not only, you know, figure— you know, figuratively larger than life, they were physically larger than life, right?

So take us back to the minute, if you can remember, the moment you met Muhammad Ali. Like, what What was that like?

It was pretty extraordinary because we were getting some boxing gloves signed by him. And back in those days, the commodity was the autograph. That's what was valuable. And my dad was also a professional photographer. He always had cameras with him. So when we got to meet Muhammad Ali, um, I asked if I could take a picture with him. And it was like nobody asked for pictures because that wasn't— that had no value. In the marketplace. So he kind of waved over, and I ran around the table, and he, he, he comes, says, come in close, and then he takes his fist and he puts it up against my chin. And then my dad snapped that picture. I still have it today. It's one of my most prized possessions, is that picture of me with Muhammad Ali. And it was like a dream come true to be able to meet somebody like that, that at the time was literally the champion of the world.

That's incredible. I, I'm just, I'm just, I can't even imagine what that like was like for you as a kid.

Yeah. It's just, uh, you know, and that, that's all pre-internet and pre-Instagram.

Right. I was gonna say pre-Instagram. Yeah. So there was no selfie taking in those days.

Yeah. So the FOMO wasn't the picture. The FOMO was the autograph. The autograph. You know, you go to the ballpark and you'd get something signed, right? Everything was about getting something signed. And only once Instagram really started taking off did the Did that change? Yeah. To be the photograph became—

that makes sense. You know, the, the value proposition. But you had a more of a prepared mind in a way, because I mean, your father was a photographer, so he, you probably had a bit of a culture in your family about taking pictures. Yeah.

You know, at first it was like, you know, please another picture to, you know, great. It wasn't like we were posing for them cuz again, there, there wasn't an outlet for distributing these photos. There was no social media. So it was really more for posterity, right? You know, and for learning actually, because I could see me jumping over a 3-foot fence with my horse or my pony at the time. And, and then I could see where my legs were and my hands were and where my body was arched, you know, or bowling. I could see, you know, my posture or, you know, so it was more, you know, to look at those kind of things. Right. And then we went to the card shows. It was just kind of fun to take pictures of your icons like that.

Incredible. So you moved from— you were going to this, the shows and you had the store, and then at some point you opened a newsletter, or you started a newsletter, is that right? Yeah.

So I graduated college back in 1990. I went to the University of Albany, uh, Upstate New York, and it was a terrible economy. There were no jobs available. So what year was that? That was 1990. Yeah. Okay. And so I wound up moving back home and, you know, you know, imagine, you know, being a college kid and then, you know, having this exciting, you know, life, and then all of a sudden you move back in with your parents. Yeah. Into your old bedroom and it's like, oh, is this what life is like? Right. And, you know, so we had the store. So I started working in the store, but I found very quickly that I didn't like the one-to-one with the customers. You know, I just felt like I wasn't doing anything significant and something that could scale. Not that I even knew what that word was at the time. Right. But I knew I wanted to do something bigger in life. And prior to that, in college, I started selling advertising for the school newspaper. So we're talking about the mid to late '80s here. And I made a lot of money for the school newspaper selling advertising, and we, we outfitted the, the whole newspaper with desktop, desktop computers, Apple computers back then. So I got— I— we had the first laser printer, we had the first version of Quark and Adobe. So I became pretty fluent on the Mac, uh, back in the— on the Apple computers back in the day. I literally would make my reports out of that, my, my school papers out of that. And to have a laser printer and have fonts and not a dot matrix printer, for anybody who remembers those days, it was just— it was like magic. Yeah, my professors would be like— they didn't even know how I did it. It was like, it was like, it was just beautiful. And I happened to be a decent writer, so, you know, so between my writing and these reports that look gorgeous, you know, I was kind of aced college pretty well. So when I graduated college, I had an Apple computer, and at the store we had a photocopy machine. So I decided to make a newsletter for what was coming out, what was hot. So we had the, the guy that ran the comic books in the store was a great friend, super funny, and he knew— he had this encyclopedic knowledge of comic books. So, you know, we kind of teamed up, we wrote the articles, I published it on the on the photocopy machine. We distributed— we printed them out, we distributed them, and our comic book sales skyrocketed. They just skyrocketed. Because back in those days, we had, um, we had it— we had an— we had advanced information because the, the, the publishers like Marvel and DC, they would supply the information to distributors. Distributors would then put it into a catalog Then they'd have to print the catalog, distribute to the retailers. The retailers would get a few weeks to place the orders, and then 2, 3 months later, the fans would then get the comics in the store. So you're talking about a 3 to 4 month leeway between when you knew what was coming, between when the publishers knew what they were doing, and when the fans got it. So in that 3 to 4 month period, we had inside information. Incredible.

Yeah, so a very different time.

It's a very different time, and you're not talking about trading stocks here, you know, on Wall Street. This was comic books. So, so we were able to take the information and pick the things that we liked, pick the artists that we knew were coming out that we liked, or the writers, or the storylines, or the characters, feature it in the newsletter, and then show it to the fans. They would pre-order the comics, and that's when it went crazy, right? So it did so well that I kind of got this idea that, hey, why don't I just expand this and turn this into a magazine.

And turn into, into a magazine, into its own publication. Yeah.

And then it was like, hey, if our store is benefiting from this, what about the 3,000 to 5,000 stores? You know, imagine them having this access to this, their fans having access to this inside info. And that's really what kind of made the magazine born.

That's amazing. Did you, what did you call the magazine?

So the magazine was called Wizard and the name of the comic book store was called the Wizard of Cards and Comics. We just thought it was like a fun name at the time. Yeah. And, you know, so yeah, and then my dad also collected original comic book art. And so we'd go to all the comic book shows and meet the comic book artists and buy original art from them. And at the time, you're talking about tens of dollars, maybe hundreds of dollars for the biggest comic artists out there. And we happened to become friendly with a guy named Todd McFarlane. And Todd is incredibly famous and just one of the most extraordinary artists of our generation. And he was working on Hulk and then Spider-Man at the time. And he was a revolutionary artist. And we started buying up a lot of his comic book art. And then we got to the point where it was my dad's birthday one year. So I called up Todd and I was like, hey, look, it's my dad's birthday. And he knew my dad because we'd buy a bunch of his art. And would you be able to do a Spider-Man sketch for my dad? So he was like, sure, no problem. So he did one of Spider-Man dressed in the wizard outfit, in a wizard outfit. I see. And then, uh, when I decided to do the magazine and call it Wizard, I called up Todd and I said, look, you know, I, I, I'm starting this magazine. I'd love to feature you in the magazine with an interview, and I'd love to use that Spider-Man piece. And he was like, great, no problem. And I made a deal with him, sent him some hockey cards. He loved soccer. So, um, yeah. And that became the COVID of the magazine. And we, we featured, uh, everything that was coming out at the time. And then we also had a price guide. You know, which back then there was no way to look up digitally what your comic books were worth. So we would scour all the events and the shows and all the stores and make a lot of phone calls and see what was moving and shaking out there. And yeah, so we started the first magazine. It came out— we debuted it in San Diego in July of '91, and then it hit the retail stores in August of '91. Incredible. Yeah, it was just— it was an— it was a momentous moment. Um, but what was fascinating was, you know, when we first started giving out the magazine to people, they didn't want it. They were handing it back and they're like, what do we need this for? Right? And it was so demoralizing actually, because, you know, here I was like, you don't know what you're missing here. Like, this really helped our store sales, you know, and you as a fan, like, how could you not want, you know, this guide to what's going to help you collect and see what's coming out ahead of time. And so we got this, like, incredible pushback until eventually the first issue did come out and it sold because we interviewed Todd and he was very popular at the time and nobody even knew what he looked like. This was all pre-internet. Oh, wow. Yeah. So to get a picture, right, of what these— what, what the artists look like and what the writers look like was just unheard of. It's not like you just go look them up. And, and comic books was certainly not in the mainstream media, so it's not like, you know, it got covered in the movies or television or, or those kind of worlds. So now people got to see what they look like, and the first issue was a hit. It sold through, but then our sales just kept declining and declining because they had to be ordered in advance.

And what do you mean they had to be ordered in advance?

So then you had to go through the similar distribution process where it was no longer on your photocopy machine. People were ordering the second third and fourth issue, the retailers were ordering it before they even knew how the first one sold. Yeah. So they didn't want to invest all this money. Makes sense. Makes sense. In the magazine, not knowing the sales results. So we hit rock bottom probably around the seventh issue. And then, um, something incredible happened. There was 7 artists at Marvel. They were the biggest and best-selling artists that they had. They were incredible talents. And they decided to leave Marvel. And at the time, Marvel and DC Comics were probably about 90-plus percent market share. I mean, it was just— they just dominated the industry unlike any two companies could dominate an industry. And now all of a sudden, the best-selling artists were leaving. There was no internet. There was no place to make a fanfare. There was no sending out emails to people or texting them. There was no— barely cell phones at the time. There was only one place to let everybody know what was going on, and that was Wizard Magazine. Ah, and they were all around my age. We were in the early 20s at the time. Well, they were young guys, and it was just— I got the phone call one night at midnight. They woke me up. They woke up at midnight? Yeah, they called me up.

So dramatic.

On the phone, they woke me up. Uh, they were in California. They were all excited, and they said, "Garb, you know, we're starting this new company." You know, and you know, we want to break it with you. Breaking news! So I immediately flew out to LA to meet with them. I took the first picture of the group of them all together, and then, uh, we wrote an article in the magazine. We— I had lined up covers with all of them, and it was just this momentous occasion because prior to that, um, there were no— there were very few comic books that were collected or collectible that weren't Marvel or DC Comics. Mm-hmm. And people were curious about all these new characters and they were kind of excited about it, but I feel like there was a hesitation in the market in that people knew they wanted to buy it and read it, but they didn't know if it was gonna be a collectible or worth money one day. And it's almost like the fact that we covered it and people loved our magazine And we, we were able to write about it in a way that this is so much fun. This is new. And more importantly, we were promoting creator rights at the time. Mm-hmm. Because the, the reason they left Marvel was they didn't have ownership in the characters that they were working on or creating. So the more great stories they created for Spider-Man, they may have made a lot of money, but they were never gonna own Spider-Man. And the companies always felt that Spider-Man or Batman, they were always the most important over the— over the artists, right? And writers too. Oh yeah. And, and they were never going to get top billing. And here was a chance for these guys to create their own companies, to own their own characters, and to show that you could do that on your own. And, you know, look, I was a kid also at the time, and it was not easy to work with Marvel and DC. They were market leaders. You know, they were dominant companies. Here I was, this young punk kid starting a magazine, think I know what I'm doing. And, and, you know, I had these 7 guys that were super popular that were like, what do you want to do? And it was like every idea that we can come up with, they were like, yeah, we're in, we're down. And like, what kinds of ideas? It was, hey, let's do some trading cards and put them in the magazine. Hey, let's do the COVID Let's, let's show the artwork in advance, maybe run some pages in advance. We'll do the interviews. We'll team up and do a bunch of characters together. Um, it was literally everything that we wanted to do. Uh, the answer was yes. Mm-hmm. And everything I wanted to do at Marvel and DC was no, maybe we'll get to it. We don't like that idea. And it was everything but, you know, yes. Right. And, and easy. Right. And it was always approvals and licenses and lawyers. It was just always those kind of things involved. Yeah. And here we had the 7 most popular people in the world that were like, yeah, let's do it. So we just covered them like crazy, and it really reinforced to the fans that this is important, that it's something that they should be investing their time and money and energy, you know, into that. And it was the combination of the two of us, like us and Image at the time, working together to show the world that, that you could be an independent creator and be successful and not be, you know, a mainstream comic book company. Yeah, to succeed.

Amazing.

Yeah, and that just— our sales went from $30,000 to $200,000 within a, within a couple of month period of time.

Incredible. But when you hit rock bottom, didn't you go to your father and say, hey Dad, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit? Back to the point of quitting.

Yeah, so it was a very, very difficult time because, uh, the comics— the magazine wasn't selling. Um, uh, my dad was financing it for me. Um, I basically went to my parents and I'm like, hey, look, you know, my older brother went to dental school, you know, you helped him out, you know, I want to start this, can you help me out? Right, good. And, uh, you know, it wasn't— it wasn't, you know, crazy a lot of money, but in those days it definitely was. And we were not making money and the sales were going down and I just didn't see a path. I just didn't have it in front of me. I would been working 24/7. I lived at home and I built the office in my parents' house. I took over one or two rooms while my brothers were away and, and I literally had no life. I had no social life. I literally never left the house because I'd work 3 shifts. I'd work during the day, I'd be working on calling people. At night I'd work on design. And then in the middle of the night I'd work on, you know, getting organized and figuring out what I'm gonna do and how I'm gonna do it. So, and then 3 hours later I'd be up, you know, the same thing 7 days a week. So, so it was really a tough time both financially and physically. And I went to my dad. I remember it was one evening, I went upstairs, uh, he was watching TV in his bedroom, and I, I started, uh, talking about, hey, look, it's really difficult, you know, it's— we're— I don't think we're gonna make it, you know. And I was really, I was really down. I was kind of like not faking crying, but like kind of like half wanting to go that direction and wanting sympathy. And my dad wanted no part of it. It was just— he was like, you have no other choice. You have to make it work. I don't know why you see it where there's any other option here. You started this, you have to make it work. And I didn't get anything out of my dad. No sympathy, no permission. Yeah, no pat on the back. Yeah, not even like, you're doing a great job. Yeah, you have to make it work.

Where do you think he was coming from? I mean, you didn't actually have to make it work. Well, he was—

he— my dad was— my, my dad was an entrepreneur, so he had small businesses that he had run, um, all stuff that he started, that he ran. So he never had a— not that he never— but he didn't have a boss. There was nobody to tell him it's okay if it doesn't work out, that, you know, there was no safety net in the family. We weren't, you know, we were middle class. There was no, there's no kind of like, okay, we'll recover, you know, and start something else. It was like, that was it, you know. My dad had the mindset of just, just you work and you make it work. Yeah. And that's it. And there were no other options. Yeah. And not that I hadn't seen that side of him, but, but I wasn't expecting the, the just complete lack of sympathy. And it wasn't that. I actually think it was tough love. It was actually the opposite. It was probably the greatest encouragement you can give me was to not let me out, but to make me just figure out how to make it work. Yeah. Whatever circumstance I needed to do that. Yeah. And once I had that mindset that, like, Okay, well, I have to make it work. So what do I have to do? And I just completely rethink, uh, rethought, uh, a bunch of different things that I was doing, how I was doing it. Um, and then that kind of miracle happened where these guys left Marvel and it all kind of happened at the same time. Yeah. And like, you know, I, I don't know how that all kind of happened at that moment in time, but it was almost like you know, the gift that I needed in life at that moment was, was that event that happened. And that just turned everything around. And then just poured literally 100% of my energy into, into making that the most successful thing that we could do. Because if those guys were successful, we were going to be successful, right? If people wanted to know what they were doing, there was only one place they were going to find out, and that was through us, right? And we were going to be that place where it happened.

Right. It was a real, you know, miracle. You could say, oh, the universe, or who knows what. But one thing to say is that if you had given up, even emotionally, if you'd given up and then a week later you got that call, it's, you can imagine you'd be like, well, I'm, I'm done with that. Oh, sorry, I've moved on to other things. The point is like, you've gotta actually stay in the game. Otherwise you don't last long enough for luck to happen to you.

Yeah. You know, I, I've definitely learned in life, you know, it's longevity. You know, you just have to stick around and you have to do whatever it takes to, to last, right? You know, the longer you last, the more likely something, like you said, is going to happen, you know, especially for the positive, right? For sure.

So then, you know, you— the magazine was very successful. I don't quite know what happened to the magazine, but like, take us from the magazine to Comic-Con.

Yeah, so what was happening at the time whereas there was, uh, there was a lot of comic book shows, you know, like sports card shows, just like literally hotel ballrooms or high school gymnasiums, you know, where people would buy and sell comic books. Uh, there were two larger events at the time. One was called the San Diego Comic-Con, um, and one was the Chicago Comic-Con. Now the thing is that they've been around for 20 years prior. They weren't always called that, but they kind of became that But Comic-Con was just short for Comic Convention. You know, it's like somebody would call Federal Express FedEx. It was actually just an easy way to say it. There was no brand associated with it. And back then, being a geek or a nerd was literally like, you know, it was a— it was an insult. You know, if you called someone a geek or a nerd, it was like calling them, you know, a bad name. I mean, it was really meant to belittle somebody. And those shows, they were more glorified versions of what you would see at a high school gym. You know, they were at a convention center, but it was a small space, uh, and mostly it was dealers who bought and sold comic books, old comic books. And, you know, the publishers started going to them, like the Marvels and the DCs. They started going and, you know, having some panels and things like that, but it was strictly comic books. There was nothing other than comic books at these events. And because there was no internet, it's not even like you knew what anybody looked like as a fan. Like, so it wasn't like you were trying to hunt down people. Like, you didn't even know what it looked like. Um, so if you were lucky enough to meet somebody, you know, then it was like, you know, and then certainly, you know, even getting your comic books autographed at the time wasn't popular. Unlike in the sports card world, getting It was getting memorabilia signed. Nobody signed sports cards because then you were defacing it, just like, just like comic books. Now today it's all changed, but back then, if you asked somebody to sign your comic book, you were defacing it and completely destroying the value of that comic book, you know. So today I wouldn't get any of these older books signed, you know, but getting new books signed is like very, very popular today. But putting that aside, so back then there was no commodity other than buying and selling comic books. So the idea that you meet somebody, you know, it was more just to like talk to them about like what they're working on more than any other kind of value that you can get out of that experience. And, um, and certainly photos weren't the commodity, so it wasn't even like you'd go there to get photos of people. So that's what the comic book— that's what the Comic-Cons look like. Yeah. And as we grew and as Image grew, yeah, and as we generated so much more excitement in the industry. And because I had the monthly magazine, I was reaching out to the movie studios and the video game companies and the toy companies and finding out what they're working on. So we used to feature all of that in the magazine. So we were constantly talking to every television network and movie studio and toy company and video game company and putting that information in the magazine. So we were getting them interested in comics. And the problem was, was we were these young guys that just were creating a lot of noise and excitement, and nobody really wanted that. So I wound up buying the Chicago Comic-Con back in the mid-'90s.

So hang on, when you say I wound up buying— I was sitting there one day and I thought, I'm gonna buy Chicago— like, how did that idea even come around, and why did you do that?

Yeah, because like, you know, we wanted to just do stuff at these shows. Oh, so you wanted like a vehicle? Yeah, we wanted to have fun. Music and, and, and take pictures and have games and contests and do all kinds of fun, crazy stuff. We were kids, we were, yeah, mid-20s, and at the time we were all making money, and it was like, you know, how could you not have fun? But nobody wanted to let us have fun.

I see.

So, uh, I knew the, the people that owned the Chicago Comic-Con at the time, and they were losing money, and, you know, I kind of stepped in and I was like, hey, you know, I'll buy the show We'll have a party, you know, we'll lose a bunch of money, but who cares? The magazines are doing well. We'll sell more ads and, you know, we'll sell a bunch of booths and we'll just literally have the, the, a party the way we'd wanna have it. Yeah. And that's all it was meant to be. Yeah. It was a party for the magazine and for, and to celebrate what we did. But now here was a chance for us to, to do what we did in paper. Now we could do in real life. We interviewed the talent. Now all of a sudden you can meet the talent. Uh-huh. Right? Um, we talked about what was going on. Now you could hear it from the people's mouths what was going on. We, we showed pictures of the toys. You could see the toys, you know. We featured, uh, celebrities in the magazine. Now maybe you can meet the celeb, right? So everything about what you couldn't do in print, we wanted to do in real life and, and bring that to life. And we did that. That's amazing. Our first show in 1997, 1997 in Chicago. And again, there was no television coverage. There was no internet back then. You barely had cell phones. But we really enlisted all the comic book stores. We enlisted, um, all the— actually, we did a lot of promotions with some of the local, um, we did a lot of promotions with the local radio stations to give away tickets. And then we just had every single artist and writer and comic book company put ads in their own comic books saying, hey, come meet us at the show. So everywhere you could go, you know, you would see, you know, that this is the place that you'd want to meet that talent. And it was unbelievable. The show the prior year, I think, had maybe 2,000-3,000 people. We had 20,000 people. 20,000 people a weekend. The lines wrapped around the building. Oh my gosh, it was just an extraordinary time. And also, it was like, you know, before, you know, people actually purchased on-site, we credit cards. It's not like you had, you know, it's not like you had credit card, uh, like in advance. Yeah, it's not like you had, it's not like you had portable credit card machines where you could take credit cards, right? So we'd have some credit cards, but everybody would bring cash. Cash. So we were, we had, we had suitcases full of cash that, you know, we brought all to the bank. So we'd have to hire armored trucks and guards to bring it to the bank. I mean, it was just, just so many things we, we just didn't have any expectations for. Well, one of the greatest things that we did was in the magazine we had a column called "All Dressed Up and Nowhere to Go." And it was— we went around every year Halloween, we'd feature all the best superhero costumes in the magazine. And it was one of the most fun things that we ever had because everybody wanted to get in their costume and into the magazine. Yeah. So we said to ourselves, hey, why don't we have a— it was in our show. Our show was in August, and we said to ourselves, why don't we have a costume contest at the show and have everybody get dressed up? You know, maybe they'll make their costumes in advance before Halloween, and they'll show up and we'll give out prizes. And so we did that. We said, hey, we're having a costume contest at the event. Everybody dress up on Saturday. We're gonna do a big contest. Everybody come on Saturday dressed up.. And we had quite a few people dressed up in costume in their favorite, whether it was their Wolverine or Spider-Man or Batman costumes. And the co— they were just, at the time, they were incredible just to have people dress up like that. And, but here's where it came full circle, was because we had the magazine, we had the ability to not only ask people to dress up, but then show the winners and show the costumes in the magazine. Right. And the magazines at the time— Wizard was selling about 400,000 copies at the time, and our readership was in the millions per month. We were in 75 countries, we were in a dozen languages. So at the time, it was just this global magazine. It was the only place that you could find out what was going on. So people dressed up, and it was incredible. And we took their pictures, and we put it in the magazine, and everybody freaked out because it was like, holy crap, look at all these costumes that people dressed up as because they all wanted to win the prizes. And that just opened the floodgates, you know. After that period of time, um, every other little comic book show out there was getting people to get dressed up. It became this thing. And that's so really, it's, it's kind of like the birth of cosplay. Yes. You know, out there. Yeah. You know, that we really popularized that., in the world. So it was kind of fun, you know, to be, uh, to, to, to, to be in a place where so many things that, that the geek and nerd culture and world have been into for so long, you know, we can kind of trace back, you know, the origin of it to what we did at the time at the both the live events and through the magazine.

Totally. And then you got, I think you also really created a space where people understood there were other people like them. Which they didn't have pre, you know, Facebook groups or whatever.

Yeah, that, that was, that was probably the most magical part of the whole event, was this idea that all these people were disenfranchised at the time because it's not like you wanted to publicly admit that you liked comic books, uh, because you were going to be ridiculed. Yeah. And I, I make this kind of funny joke that I, I almost want to like, we put a sign out front that was like, "Enter at your own risk. You know, there are geeks and nerds inside. You might catch something." And, you know, it was like, that's literally how people felt, like, like you might catch a disease and like, you know, get sick over this. And, and, and to have all these people and all of our fans show up, and to see all of us and each other, and to realize that you weren't alone, that there were a lot of people like yourself that were into comics and superheroes, and that you weren't by yourself. And I think that was probably the greatest contribution. If I look back in the history of everything that I've done, uh, was probably the greatest contribution and contributing factor to the geek and nerd movement becoming so popular around the world. Was I think at that moment we took people that didn't have any self-confidence about what they did to a place where they felt self-confident about what they did. Because the minute they saw other people do this, it validated who they were and what they did and what they appreciated and what they loved. And once people got that self-confidence, and realized that I'm not doing something wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm doing something very right. They felt more comfortable talking about it. Yeah. And the minute people are proud of what they do, that was the moment in time where the word of mouth could spread. And it was never going to spread if people were self-conscious about it. They were never going to share that with anybody. And we didn't have social media at the time, and there was no internet to share it with. Um, and it, it was kind of at that moment that I think that was kind of the birth of, of that aspect of kind of geek and nerd culture, which enabled it to spread like wildfire.

Yeah. Amazing. So then it grew. So, I mean, of course, you know, the culture grew in the sense that everybody was like, oh, embracing it. But then Comic-Con also grew with you. I mean, You know, I, I think of you, and I think you think of yourself as the founder of Comic-Con, right? Is that accurate? Yeah. I mean, I never—

I didn't start the word Comic-Con, but I think when you think about like the comic book con culture today, right, you know, we were at the origin of that, right? Because it couldn't have been successful if it was just, you know, a 3-day weekend, right?

Exactly.

It had to have the cultural part of it. It had to have the experience beyond, uh, just comic books. Yeah, it had to be film, television, toys, games. It had to have the live experience of the, the cosplay and the dressing up. And then it had to have the follow-through of people thinking about it on a very regular, near-daily basis. And at that point, I had started 3 or 4 more monthly magazines. So we literally every week we had a new magazine coming out about comic books or toys or games or Japanese animation. And, and then we did a lot of assorted specials. So it was one of those things where every week we reinforced to the fans, but more importantly, also reinforced to the industries that this is a big force to be reckoned with. Right. And, and it was really, you needed the media side of that business on a day-to-day basis to keep reinforcing the cultural part of that, that enabled it to take off the way it did.

Right, that makes complete sense. And then you bought up a whole bunch of other, what, comic book conventions or something, and kind of had a whole roll-up of Comic-Con.

Yeah, so after I'd started a bunch more magazines, um, yeah, I, I started a few more, and then, um, and then, yeah, by the, uh, by the early 2000s, uh, 2000, like '08, '09, '10, '11, in that frame, um, you know, as the world was starting to go digital, that's when the internet was really starting to boom. The iPhones were coming out, web information was free basically, and as social media was starting and people were starting to aggregate online, uh, everybody was calling for the death of live events. It's like, why would we ever get together when we could all meet, you know, on social media? And, and that's when I was like, something very unique is happening here. You know, groups are forming, but they're forming between people that would have never met otherwise. And at some point in time, those people are going to want to get together in real life. And it was just a matter of time. So while the live event business was in the doldrums, uh, and the economy was also tough. I wound up buying up a lot of regional Comic-Cons around the country, and we wound up, I think, buying about 16 of them. Yeah. So yeah, it was at a time where it was like, okay, everybody thought I was crazy, um, but luckily we had the wherewithal because even though the, the magazines were suffering, you know, big time because paper prices were rising and people were starting to shift their attention and to online media. And it was very, very tough business. Yeah. But I felt like the event side was gonna be the one that was gonna be the future of the business.

I'm just curious, what made you think that? If everybody, by the way, everyone is calling for the demise of in-person events, you know, over and over again in history, right? Including the pandemic. But if everybody was thinking that, if, and if digital was becoming a thing and if people were a little bit like less interested in socializing, I don't know, what did— what made you think, I have a hunch, I know this to be true? What was like your, like, um, what's it called, your, your unfair advantage on under— on seeing the future?

Well, to me it was, I, I saw firsthand, you know, what live events could drive, uh, in conjunction with media. And, you know, that's number one. Number two is, um, I'm a social being And I've been going to comic book shows and sports card shows my entire life. And I'm not talking like one or two, we're talking about 30 to 50 a year for decades here. So, you know, I've been to thousands of events in my life, and there's nothing that could replicate the experience of live, you know. And fortunately, I was in a position where everybody showed me everything, you know. So Everybody that was trying to duplicate the experience on social media or online or in a digital format, it was like, this is boring. Like, okay, so I could chat with somebody in a chat room. Like, yeah, but what if I want to show them something? What if I want to, you know, show them this new comic book that I got or show them this autograph that I have or this new toy that I'm looking at? Like, you know, can't do that online. Yeah, you can't have that type of experience. Yeah. And it just— and then also, the, the world started moving into experiences as well. At the time, you know, some of the more— some of the films started doing okay. And then all of a sudden, you know, the, the Iron Man movie came out. And that kind of changed everything. That just changed the world because That was just an experience where it wasn't just a movie, it was, it was an event. Yeah. People had to go to. Yeah. And that changed everything. But, but from my perspective, you know, I just saw it. It was just instinct that people want to get together, people want to see each other, and we're in a collectible world. It wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, I could just do my clothing shopping online, or I could just buy my stuff on Amazon. You know, this was not stuff that you could just go buy online. You know, you needed to see it, smell it, feel it in person, make sure that it was in the condition that you wanted. People like haggling for price. I mean, you can't do that online, right, with a retail store. So, right, yeah, there was a million reasons why. Um, it was just everything about, you know, me and my childhood and growing up, you know, that prepared you, right?

Just really prepared you for that. So as you were building Comic-Con into this, you know, global empire. It wasn't just you anymore, right? Did you hire a team?

Yeah, we had lots of people.

How many people and how did you find them?

I think, uh, it was just over the years, you know, you just find the best people. Um, but my youngest brother was, was kind of the biggest driving force with me, you know, on that. You were partners, really? Steven? Yeah, he's, he's just extraordinary when it comes to the live events. You know, we obviously, we grew up together, but, you know, he'd been going to sports card and comic book shows with me and my brothers and my dad and my mom, you know, forever. So, you know, if ever there was somebody else that knew as much, if not more, than I did about the live event business, it was my brother. And, you know, it was just kind of great having, um, you know, somebody who just as symbiotic as you can get And we were also very different in the sense that, you know, I liked the front-facing part of the events. He liked the back side, back-facing part of it, which is, you know, the operations and the behind the scenes and working with the celebrities and the talent. And, um, so it was just kind of like a— just like a perfect combination, you know, of the two of us being able to work together on it.

Yeah, that's incredible. So the two of you you know, were at the front of the business and you were partners running the business. But at some point, did you have like a team of 10, a team of 50, a team of like 3? Like, when— what was your biggest team that you— if you can think of a company in your employee base?

Uh, we, we probably had at any point in time, um, probably up to 1,000 people that we were working for you.

Yeah. Wait, not employees? No, not partners.

And okay, so the events, you know, it's kind of funny how you know, kind of the world shifted to remote working. Yeah, but I've been doing that for almost 30 years now. Yeah, is remote working, because, you know, we'd have a team of 10, 20. Ultimately, I think, you know, the largest team we had on the event side full-time was probably in the 30 to 40 range. But, you know, we had hundreds and hundreds of people that worked for us at each event. You know, we might have one show where we have 300, 400, 500 people working for us.

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, they were like just for there for the event specifically, just for event.

They'd either travel with us or they'd live in a particular city and maybe they would work for us at 3 different cities because it was easy for them to drive there. But then, you know, at our peak we were doing 24 events a year, so, you know, we had to have hundreds of people all over the country, you know, that could work with us and for us at these events. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's an incredible operation to be able to you know, get hundreds of people in one place at one time and knowing what they need to do and where they need to be and how to get that done. And you can't do it with volunteers. You gotta have people that know what they're doing. And we've always had professionals that we worked with. So yeah, it's a pretty significant operation. And then you have all the outside stuff. So it's not just our own internal. You have hundreds of people that work for the, for the, for the centers and the unions, and then you're working with media outlets, and you're working with PR people, and then you're working with the local security companies and the companies that deal with the garbage and the cleanup, and the— it's just— and the, and the food and beverage and the catering. I mean, it's just unbelievable. And the AV people, like, I can go on and on, right? Every aspect of the business, you know, we were hiring outside teams to work for us to assemble and then disassemble, you know, everything that needed to be done over a weekend.

Incredible. So what would you say are the one or two most important skills that you had to learn to get great at to run that kind of operation?

Um, you just— you have to be extraordinary at the details. Um, you have so many details, um, and there's no Monday, you know. If the show starts on Thursday or Friday, and that's it, there is no Monday. So if it's not there on Friday or set up by Friday, like you're finished. Yeah. Right. So that means every single thing that you do needs to be there at that same moment in time. And everybody needs to know what to do and where to go and, and who to report to and who to work with and where they need to be and what needs to happen. So it's a very, very detail-specific oriented business.

So did that mean that you needed to yourself learn details and be better at details, or did you yourself need to develop like a system or a process? Thinking that we met through Nick Sonnenberg, who's the king of processes and systems. But how did you ensure that all those details were handled?

Yeah, so that's what the team was for, you know. My brother was incredible at that. Okay, but we hired teams of people.

Okay, that was like not your thing?

Yeah, uh, yeah, that, that wouldn't be for me. No. And then the second part which is more important, is to actually create an experience that people want to go to. You know, you could, you could have all the detail work and, and processes and operations in the world, but if you don't have what people want to see, they're just not going to go. Yeah. And that's it. You know, if, uh, if Bruce Springsteen doesn't show up, there's no concert. Doesn't matter how well the speakers are set up or how well the chairs are in line or how well the ticket takers are, you you know, you know, checking you in. It doesn't matter if Bruce doesn't show, there's no show. And if Taylor Swift doesn't show up, there's no show, right? So it was critical for us to create an experience that people not just wanted to go to but had to go to, right? And they didn't have to go by themselves. They had to bring their friends because they had to be there. Yeah. And if they weren't there, it was going to be a big problem. Yeah. So, and that's That's the thing. And that's the magic. Yeah. That we are the best at was creating that magical experience that made people have to be there.

That makes sense. And that really comes from everything that you did starting when you were collecting cards as a kid. Yes.

Like learning about all that. Yes. It's, it's every experience that we had figuring out what people wanna see before they even know they wanna see it. It, right? And for it to be there for them, and for them to be able to discover it and find it and not realize that they were going to see that this weekend or that weekend, and then be able to share that with all their friends that didn't go, or their friends that were there, and say, look at what I bought, look what I acquired, look what I saw, look who I met. And to have that experience that was only there for that moment in time, right? And if they didn't capture it at that moment, it was gone forever, right? And that's what we're the best at. And, you know, especially my brother with the talent side, you know, we are the best at bringing the best and biggest and most extraordinary celebrities in the world and talent in the world to these events and to deliver these once-in-a-lifetime experiences that, that you'll probably never get a chance to do again. So If you miss it, it's gone forever.

Yeah. Amazing. That's incredible. So as you're doing that and you're learning, I have to assume you made some mistakes along the way. So like, could you think about a moment where you either had a setback or made a mistake or even like made the wrong decision that you then had to fix or correct or something?

Yeah, we've made so many. It's just, you know, and some stuff it happens on your own, some stuff that happens, you know, despite everything that you've done. You know, we've run events and we've had some of the biggest celebrities in the world, and then all of a sudden something happens where their filming goes over and they can't make it. Ah, and you have thousands of people that were waiting to meet them, that were there, they flew in, they're in their hotel, they go to the show, and then this— the person that they wanted to meet the most in their entire life couldn't make it. And try to make those people feel okay about the situation. How do you handle that? It's very difficult. Um, you know, what we have to do, or we kind of have like a protocol, you know, that we try. Um, and one of them is, you know, to try to either, if we know enough in advance, potentially try to find a replacement. Um, if it happens unfortunately at that moment in time, uh, what we'll try to do is see if some of the other celebrities can give us some extra time and maybe, uh, offer, you know, a replacement to the people for that. Um, so that's always possible and most likely going to happen. Um, but then the other thing is just, you know, you're going to have to refund their money, but it's, it's never, it's never the best answer. You know, it's not— they didn't— they weren't there to get their money back. They were there to meet that person and there's nothing you can do about that. We've had torrential nor'easters at shows where, where it's, you know, it's just impossible to get to. The rain is just so bad. We've had fire departments that say, you know, you, you had the lines are too big and you have to cut people off and they have to wait. And sometimes they have to wait outside in the snow. And what do you do when they're outside in the snow and like there's no place to put people except in the cold outside. It's— it kills you. Um, so there's so many things that, that can happen. Um, you know, sometimes you're just hiring the wrong people, I think, is probably the biggest, uh, issue we've ever had.

Yeah, you know, with anything, it's just, you know, what's an example of hiring the wrong person?

Um, it's somebody who, you know, who said they were going to get stuff done and they don't. You know, it could be somebody who, you know, promised you this, that they, they were going to get you sponsors and advertisers, and then you needed that capital to supplement the business because you wanted to get the big gas, and then they don't come through with it. Um, it could be people like that. It could just— people don't show, or they just, uh, they're just not capable of handling, uh, that. You know, we, we kind of, um, talk about our shows that Um, that it's like, um, it's like working for us is like playing at Carnegie Hall, you know. Just playing in concert somewhere else is just not going to cut it if you're not the best of the best. You can't work with us because we deliver the highest quality experiences that unless you're at the best in the world at your game, you're just not going to make it. And it becomes very, very obvious because we have such strong teams all across. Right. So yeah, so from us, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's a lot of that kind of stuff where it's just, you know, making sure you have the right people.

Right. And then if something goes wrong, you have to improvise.

Yeah, there's lots of improvising. Lots. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's nothing you can do. It's live, right? Like I said, there's no Monday, right? Right. It's showtime.

It's happening now. So before we hit the play button, we were talking about this notion you have about how important— how you feel like now your life is. You have all these options, you constantly have options, and then you feel like you've kind of built your life so that you have a whole bunch of options. So you're never really worried about one thing coming or going. So can you talk about that? Because you had the— you've Comic-Con and It's still, that's still ongoing, but now you're branching out and doing other things. And I think you took like a year sabbatical to work on your art too. Could you talk about the things that have created for you the experience of, I have so many options and I'm never worried about one thing not working out?

Well, for me it's, it's putting aside the amount of options. Um, it puts me in a position where unless I could do something really big, and change the world, I'm not interested. So unless— and it doesn't mean that it has to start big, it just has to have the opportunity to impact, you know, an enormous number of people. Otherwise, it's not something that I'd care about. Yeah. And because I found that there's— I've tried some things that were just small little things that I'd play around with, and they're never successful. Because they're just small little things and I lose interest. And it's, it's very hard to get other people excited about little things. So, so from that standpoint, um, you know, I have a lot of options. But, you know, the thing is, is that, you know, if you want to change the world, um, you know, it has to be something that I can see in terms of where the world is going. And then built something for where I think everything is going. Yeah. And, and that to me is where, um, I try to spend a lot of my time thinking about, you know, what the world is gonna be like and what the world will need. Yeah. And, and what I could do to be there when the time comes where people need it or not realize they need it and then be there for it.

So what's an example? And then I'm also gonna ask you if you can possibly articulate like your framework to think about that, but like, Just what's an example of some of the things that you've worked on in the recent past, or you're working on now, that you feel like can really impact the world?

Yeah, so I started a company called Hero Maker, and that was a business that was, uh, set up to create original character franchises, uh, for digital collectibles and comics and, you know, just, just build franchises and launch them. And, uh, and then as the Web3 world started emerging and the NFT world started developing, I really felt like that was the future of the world, and I still do. Um, you know, that world has changed dramatically, and a lot of people got into it for the wrong reasons, or they felt like they could make a difference but the technology wasn't there yet, and, um, and it was just kind of like a big boom bust kind of cycle, but I still believe in the concept of ownership in the future. And, you know, a lot of that stems from, you know, one of the things that we were talking about earlier about ownership of characters, you know, and that there's going to be this migration shift from companies owning things to individuals owning things. And it's already— it's, you know, it's not new. It's been happening for a long time now. But, uh, but eventually it's going to change very, very drastically. And, and quite frankly, you know, AI is going to accelerate so much of it, which people weren't even talking about even as early as last year, right? On the commercial side, you know, people that were involved in the development of it knew what was going on, but until kind of this year was really when kind of the more general public realized you know, the impact that AI could have, you know, in their personal or business lives and what the potential is for it. And I feel like now the opportunities that AI is going to offer the Web3 blockchain world is just going to be extraordinary, you know. So, you know, so that company that I started with one thesis about how we were going to become successful has kind of morphed into this new, uh, way of thinking. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, so I'm going to be heavily pursuing, uh, that even deeper.

Yeah. And what specific— and what specifically does it do? Well, you just remind me the name of the company.

Well, it's called Hero Maker.

Hero Maker. So what specifically does Hero Maker do?

Because that's what we do. Um, it's all about character franchises and creating them. Okay. And when you think about, you know, character franchise like take Spider-Man or the whole Marvel Universe, or it could be any character franchise universe, uh, the companies are never going to let the fans own a piece of the success that they're helping create. And what Web3 and NFTs and the blockchain are going to do is it's going to, it's going to It's gonna basically create a world where, um, you know, where fans are gonna be able to have some sort of, whether it's ownership or participation in the success of the franchise, they're gonna help, uh, build. Cool. Yeah. And, and I call it disintermediation. You know, we were very big in that world, um, in the magazine world, right? Cuz we took the information. That used to go from the publishers to the distributors to the retailers to the fans directly from the publishers to the fans, directly from Marvel to the fans. Love it. And then we did that on the event side, you know, so again, having the manufacturers and the publishers and the character and the content creators meet directly with their, their, their, their audience. Um, and now I do think that that this is what's going to happen again, right? Like, um, and a lot of that theory comes from how I believe the hero's journey is going to be in the future. And for my entire life, uh, up until a couple of years ago, I wanted to be Spider-Man, right? I love that character. I was very close with Stan Lee. He was like a godfather to me. Yeah, I mean, I learned so much and love that character. And I've— and even Tom Holland is incredible that plays Spider-Man. And Into the Spider-Verse, the animated, was incredible. Everything about it was incredible. But in the metaverse and in the future digital worlds that are going to be created, I don't want to be Spider-Man. I want to be my own hero. I want to be the most heroic version of myself, not the most heroic version of somebody else's characters. And that's where it's all going. You know, we are moving into a world where people are going to become the hero of their own journey and not the hero of somebody else's journey. And that's what's going to happen. And we need to be able to create character franchises and set it up in a blockchain and set it up in a Web3 world where people can become the heroes of their own own world and become their own heroes and the most heroic version of themselves. And that's what's going to happen. It's where it's all going, I believe. And I'm going to do everything I can to enable that to happen. And it's gonna, it's gonna cause, I think, not now, but it will over time create a lot of, a lot of issues, you know, in the traditional media business. Totally. Where it's going to be very hard for these companies to, to sell franchises to people when they're going to want to be, you know, their own hero in their own franchise, or their own hero in somebody else's franchise.

I love it. That's so powerful. First of all, I'm just going back to what I said at the very beginning, a visionary in the superhero world. And also, you kind of already made it safe for what you call, you know, geeks and nerds to like, be out and proud in their interest in cosplay, superheroes, character, some, you know, like that. And then it's gotten taken— it's taken one step further, many steps forward in the metaverse where people now can be empowered, but empowered to be a character. But then when you say the best version of themselves, like the, their own hero, the hero of their own story, that goes into identity. That's not just about a character, that's identity.

Correct. Yeah. And when you look at most people in the world, uh, you know, in America, I think we're a little spoiled in that we have access to a lot of things, um, regardless of, you know, wealth and stature. There's a certain amount of freedom people have, but most people in the world don't have that. And, you know, they're never going to get to travel the way we can travel. They're never going to get to participate They're never going to be able to have a, a world that they can have some power or some experience. And ultimately, this digital world and the metaverse, you know, how, you know, I mean, I know some of these are words that people have kind of shunned recently, but it still doesn't take away the fact that this is where it's all going to be going, and people are going to want to have this escape. And they want to imagine themselves, you know, in these roles and in these films, or what they would be in a TV show, or what they would be and what, what that version of themselves would be as their escape. And you saw what Apple did with their, you know, their Apple Vision goggles and what the companies are going to start doing with all of that and creating these opportunities to have these immersive experiences. And, you know, I mean, those certainly are on the most expensive side, but, you know, but there's Oculus, there's a lot of ones that are gonna be on the less expensive side, um, and that people can share. But eventually, you know, so many people are gonna have access to be able to create these worlds or be part of worlds, um, and kind of uplevel themselves in a way that they'll never be able to do in their real life.

Amazing. So great. And in the, and when you say in, in these metaverse worlds, but also in their imagination and giving expression, and life to what's just going on in their own head, to their own imagination. Absolutely.

And their identity. Yeah. I mean, everybody, I think everybody is a superhero at something. Yeah. And beautiful, you know, for, for them to be able to live that out and to be able to give them the worlds to live in, you know, is Marvel or Disney or Warner Brothers or DC gonna, gonna give you the ability to be a character in their Spider-Man world or in their Disney world. You know, they're not gonna let you play in their world other than with some very specific guidelines and guardrails. And that's not what people are gonna want in the future. Totally. It might be where they might start or think about it, but eventually they're gonna wanna, you know, be that epic version of themselves.

I love it. So I, I'm not sure if it's gonna land for you, but I'm just curious. On the topic of identity, have you ever experienced imposter syndrome yourself?

Yeah, there is no question about it. So many of these worlds that I enter for the first time, I know as much about it as most people, maybe a little bit more, maybe I have a little bit more experience, or I have a little bit more frame of reference, or maybe I have been in similar circumstances. But it doesn't mean I know how to do it, um, you know. So yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a song that I sing to myself all the time, um, you know, and it basically goes like, in over my head, right? Like, I always feel like I'm in over my head, um, but you know, who doesn't? You know, how could you? You know, you know, Elon Musk is building spaceships into the, into space, you know, and like Did he think that he had it all covered? No, you know, he was way over his head, you know. Tesla, way over his head, right? These Neuralink, way over his head, right? But, but it's the only way that you could get started is to take on these kind of challenges that go beyond where you are, um, you know, whether it's, you know, changing the world in one way or changing the world in another. Um, it's, it's I think you have to swim in the world where you're, you know, I don't wanna say pretending what you're not, but just, you know, kind of over your head in a way that you don't know where it's gonna wind up, but you'll figure it out.

Right. So what advice, like how do you sort of handle it for yourself? Like your imposter syndrome, how do you, what do you tell yourself or what do you do or say that helps you kind of soothe your imposter syndrome?

I just try to learn as much as I can, and I try to talk to as many people as I possibly can. I don't assume I know everything, um, you know, I tried to, you know, listen to people, or at least hear them, not necessarily listen, but I wish I could listen more. But, um, but, uh, but I do speak to a lot of people about a lot of things. That's number one. Number two is I'm not afraid to share what I'm working on. So a lot of people are very secretive about what they're doing. Over the years, I've taken more and more of the approach that the more I share, the more people will share back. And that's been a very big benefit, you know, that I've— that over time I've learned, you know, that the more I share with everybody, the more they share back. And that's helped a lot because I could learn a lot, you know, from other people and get some insight, and that I wouldn't get if I just try to do something on my own, right? Um, figure it out yourself. Yeah, there's no question that it's— I think we live in an age where it's, it's impossible to do things yourself. It just is, you know. I remember growing up you could do things yourself. Today you can't. There's so many rules and regulations and social media and legal and accounting and regulations and laws. It's just, it's, it's just impossible. It's just impossible today to do things on your own. So I think, you know, you have to go into things with a mindset that you're going to work with collaborators, that you're not going to own it all, you know, that you're going to have to share with other people. And the more you share the, the bigger it could be. And I've also learned in life that, you know, that, um, you know, that there's only so much that you need to consume in your life. You know, that even the richest of the people out there, they still keep accumulating, but yet, you know, they couldn't spend that amount of money in their lifetime, you know. And then they don't spend it in their lifetime, you know. They think they're building this generational wealth, but but yet there are so many more people that they could impact in the world if they could enjoy sharing while they are still alive. Yeah. So even that pledge that people make that they are going to give away 99% of their wealth, but who cares once you are dead? Why do you not enjoy it while you are here? There are so many people that— and I do not even think that it needs to go to people who are suffering. I just think it is to people who are trying to do good things. Things, you know, or people that are trying to accomplish stuff, um, you know, there's so many ways to benefit them. Um, so yeah, so I, I think that, you know, in anything that you're doing, I think the idea that, you know, the more you share with others, you know, there's so much abundance out there that, uh, that the more you create, you're just not going to be able to consume that much in your lifetime anyway. So what's the difference, right? At least you know, at least bring in people that, that will give everything they have to helping make these dreams come true.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

Garib, just two more questions.

What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

I think picking better partners. I, I think, you know, in my rush to do things or wanting to accomplish stuff, I think I didn't vet partners enough. I think they were— they, they seem like the right people at the right time, but they could have been the wrong people at the right time. Um, and I really feel like I should have— I should, I should do more homework. Um, and, and I don't want to say slow down a little bit, but just be a lot more cautious who I work with.

Yeah. Maybe like double-check, triple-check, double-check, or just find other options.

There might be different, different things that, that would be better. Yeah. Um, so, but in a rush to start and do, you know, I think we tend to make quick decisions. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, so I think that's probably the number one thing. That's great.

And last question, what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journey from startup to grown-up?

You know, there's so many things that, that go into being an entrepreneur. I mean, and you hear all the kind of— I don't want to say cliché things— like, you know, you work, you know, a lot for yourself to not work for others, and, you know, you have to have enough capital, and you have to have this, and you have to do that. Um, but I, I think, uh, the greatest thing, you know, that you can do is a couple things. One is, um, it has to be something that, um, that you have fun doing, because if you don't have fun doing it, then it's just not going to be fun. I mean, it's just kind of that simple. Um, the second thing is that, um, one of the things that— I mean, you might hear over and over again— is that, um, the bigger you get, the more you get away from the things that got you into it to begin with. And, you know, it's really important over time to just keep— as you grow, if you can, just to keep replacing the things that you don't want to do so you can get back to the things that you do want to do, where you can have the most impact and also have the most fun. And then the last thing that I find is to have impact and And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to do charity or do these things or what have you. It's just, you know, what type of impact that you can have on people, um, or, or lives or family or, or just anything out there. Um, it's really just about, you know, what can you do out there that's just gonna make some impact, uh, whether it's for your life or other people's lives out there. And I love it. It could be for entertainment, it could be for business, it could be for making money, it could be for, you know, health. It could be anything.

Just, just make an impact. I love it. Oh my God. Thank you so much for this incredible conversation. Thank you. And for joining me today. It was so fantastic. Yeah, this is really fun.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup.

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