From Start-Up to Grown-Up with Alisa Cohn

I think that people look at leaders like, oh, they're all set. They got it all together like they were born that way. Nobody was born that way. Everyone is struggling with demons that you can't see. That's first of all. Second of all, CEOs have massive amounts of stress, of indecision, of not knowing of people telling them all these different things. And founders and entrepreneurs in particular are 30% more likely to have issues with depression and anxiety than their counterparts, which means that they are definitely susceptible to being at least super high strung or moody or maybe possible having actually, you know, sort of, sort of mental health issues. And so I would say that when you see a founder on stage, and I have seen many founders both on stage and in the coaching room, you really have to understand that there's a makeup going on inside of them. And I would say for me, I'm privileged to be a coach to enormously successful entrepreneurs and founders, other leaders, and I kind of know what's going on underneath them. And everybody has their own sort of emotional issues and demons to untangle.

Welcome to Grow Think Tank. This is the one and only place where you will get insight from the founders and the CEOs of the fastest growing privately held companies. I am the host. My name is Gene Hammett. I help leaders and their teams navigate the defining moments of their growth. Are you ready to grow? Today we look at the journey of startup to grown up. When you think about your own journey as a leader, you want to make sure that your company is growing up, it's evolving, it's creating a stronger foundation and all of that is necessary for you to continue to scale your company and without working a ton more hours, without adding on a ton more stress and all of that inside of this episode. Our special guest today is Alyssa Cohn. She is the author of From Startup to Grownup. I just got the book, I've been reading the PDF. She is also known as one of the top startup coaches in the world. I thinkers 50. She's recognized in many different things. She's worked with a lot of big companies like Microsoft and many of the names you've heard before. And what we talked about inside today's interview will help you become a better leader because if you're it will help you understand some of the challenges that you're facing as a leader, how you have to evolve at a personal level. I love this part of the conversation because it is the first part of her book, but it is also in alignment with the work I do as a Coach as well. We also look at how you must lead the team and managing the team up to the next level, what it means to hire the right people, retain the right people, all of those clues and strategies inside today's episode. And finally, we look at managing the growth of the company, managing all those aspects and pulling it all together, all for you. As you take in this episode, hopefully you'll take away one of the nuggets are necessary for you to focus on to move forward, and that you're not alone. Because we talk about some of my clients that I've shared some of the examples inside of here. We talk about hers. And if you have any questions about your own journey of leadership, you want to make sure that you go to genehabitt.com and schedule a call with me. Here's what's inside that call. I've been working for 10 years. An executive coach to help you play at a higher level, really understand yourself, understand how to lead your team, understand how to grow the company. It's perfectly in alignment with what Alyssa does. We're not related in this. We don't work with each other yet if it is ever to be. But we are going to have a conversation if you have the courage to step up and talk about what you're not talking about with your board, with your executive leadership team. And those conversations have been paramount for people to understand how to move forward. Sometimes we look at the blind spots that you carry with you that you don't even know are blind spots. We also create a plan for you to move forward with ease and grace. So make sure that you're not continuing to work tons of hours and really focus on what it takes for you to grow inside that one conversation. Just go to genehabit.com and schedule your call. Now here is the amazing Alyssa. Hi, Alyssa. How are you?

I'm fantastic, Gene. How are you?

Awesome. Excited to have you on the growth think tank.

I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Well, we've already talked a little bit or I talked about this, you know, framing you in and talking about the book that you have. And I wish I got a copy to hold up, but I really am excited about talking about this. Yeah, like that I got the PDF copy. So I've been looking through that and seeing how you have, you know, told the stories that you have through all the work that you've done and really is fascinating. So excited to talk to you about some of the details behind it that aren't in the book. Right when you, when you think about leadership, like you, you're known as one of the top startup coaches in the world. When you think about leaders, they're. Everyone puts them on a pedestal like they're so successful, but there's some, there's some demons that they car around with them. I want to kind of start there because that's, that's a good place to, to begin our conversation today.

Yeah, there are a lot of demons. Do you want me to just riff on that for a minute?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I would say this. I think that people look at leaders like, oh, they're all set. They got it all together like they were born that way. Nobody was born that way. Everyone is struggling with demons that you can't see. That's first of all. Second of all, CEOs have massive amounts of stress, of indecision, of not knowing of people telling them all these different things. And founders and entrepreneurs in particular are 30 more likely to have issues with depression and anxiety than their counterparts, which means that they are definitely susceptible to being at least super high strung or moody or maybe possibly having actually, you know, sort of, sort of mental health issues. And so I would say that when you see a founder on stage, and I have seen many founders both on stage and in the coaching room, you really have to understand that there's a makeup going on inside of them. And I would say for me, I'm privileged to be a coach to enormously successful entrepreneurs and founders, other leaders, and I kind of know what's going on underneath them. And everybody has their own sort of emotional issues and demons to untangle.

When you wrote the book, you included some stuff in there about the self talk that we have. And I talk about this with my clients too. But I want to get your perspective. There's a compassionate self talk, which is, it's great when we could connect to that, but there's really a more critical self talk that gets in the way of us truly being, I think, our most authentic selves. How do you help leaders through this self talk?

Well, I think you're exactly right that we have a self talk kind of narrative going all the time. And if you don't know that, just be quiet for one minute and whatever it is you're thinking, that's your self talk. And so we have voices in our head constantly. The high achievers that I work with and that you work with, Gene, you know, they can be very critical. And when I think about how to help people, I actually wrote an article on this for inc. It's really about three self. So the first is self awareness, which is tuning into your self talk, really identifying what you are saying to yourself. The second is self compassion, recognizing that you, a human being, recognizing that you have foibles, that it's okay, that you have failings, it's okay. And then third is finding the right self talk, specific positive, productive self talk that you can insert into that continuum to give you a little relief that doesn't come naturally to you over time. You can proactively insert that positive self talk more frequently. By the way, not only is that going to make you feel better, which is important, it's also going to make you more understanding and have more space for your employees. It's also going to help you activate because that self talk, that negative self talk talk is super draining if you don't even realize it.

I love the fact that you've seen the same thing in these successful companies that you're working with and the leaders. There was a sentence in your book. I'm just going to read one sentence. I know you're a little bit weird about people quoting your book, but insecurity is almost part of the job when you start a company. Why do you think that's the case?

Because you're doing something for the first time. You know, it's like even if you are a multiple time founder, this company you're starting for the first time, these challenges that you're going to encounter on that new journey are completely new to challenges. If you've never started a company, then you don't even quite know what you're in for. And there's always this question about going left or right. All these people telling you what you should do and what you shouldn't do. There's a ton of noise around you and so insecurity is a natural response to kind of the sense of like not knowing so many things. You've got to deal with that insecurity and find ways to move forward. One foot in front of the other, no matter what.

Totally love everything you're saying here. When, when you were on the Tim Ferriss show in the interview. Fantastic interview. If anybody hasn't checked that out. Don't know who Tim Ferriss. Um, Alyssa is the coach for Tim and helping him understanding himself and grow the business. But you. He asked a question at the end. He kind of framed it really a little bit oddly because he was not sure how you would respond. But you said the billboard thing. Believe in yourself and act like it.

Yeah.

I will be honest with you one of the things that I have had to do with me being the coach to many people is learn to trust myself more. Actually, some of the deeper work I've done with my coaches is just, you know, trusting myself. And it's not that I have every know everything, but it's I can figure out or I can get out of jams or I can I trust myself enough to do this. Is that the same kind of thing that you're talking about with that quote?

I think so. I think there's that part of it. My experience with many people is that even the most productive and confident people have an area that they feel a little insecure or that is holding them back from doing the things that they want to do. So my point in that interview and my point in general is first of all, to own, you know, sort of the belief in yourself and to own the confident part of you, the wise self of you, the observer of you, who knows how capable you are. And then act like it means take action. Don't just be satisfied with like, oh, thinking you can do it. Act like it as in put one foot in front of the other. And I think that is sort of a two to me that's like kind of the two sided key to life, which is first notice limiting beliefs and find ways to resolve them and then notice where you're inactive and start taking action.

Now hold on for a second. Alyssa just talked about insecurity. Now a lot of people think that as a successful CEO of a fast growing company, you probably don't have insecurities. Well, I find this to be false because we all reach levels where we have some insecurity that we haven't been there before. And those things are really important for you to understand Now. This is one reason why I believe having a coach will help you talk through some of those insecurities and really get to the heart of it. Because if you just try to push it aside and just keep moving forward, it really is not the most efficient way to move forward and grow because you want to make sure you address those things. If you carry them with you from time to time to time, they will come back and haunt you. I know this for a fact. It's done this in my own life. So you want to make sure you're able to deal with those insecurities and owning yourself as a part of that journey and really owning you know how you're going to move forward and really defining what shifts are necessary for you as a leader. I say this to you because I Believe that wholeheartedly that you want to evolve as a leader. You want to make sure that you address the insecurities before you move forward and pass those on into your employees. Now back to Alyssa. I want to move into that other part of the book where you know you're talking about yourself first, you as the leader and you call it managing you. The next section is around managing the team. The biggest challenges right now is really attracting top talent. That also means retaining top talent, I think because you don't want people to walk out the door when it's hard to find them. When you're having a client that is, you know, struggling with this, what are your thoughts around, you know, the strategies and approaches to attracting top talent?

Right. Well, right now we are in a pendulum swing where there is a massive war for talent. Right? It's either the great resignation or the great reshuffling. However you want to look like it. Look, look at it. So first of all it's important to think about who are your top employees and how are you going to retain them. And yeah, you can give them more money and more equity. That of course is like nice, you know, for them, but long term sustainable retention and happiness and belonging inside of a company comes from their loyalty to their. So train your managers, train your leaders to be great coaches and leaders of their people. Also it has to do with meaningful work and so make sure that they're doing at least some project which are not just rote but they're really stretching them in a positive and productive way and then number three, having them see the impact of their work. So that means give them meaningful things to do and also help them showcase their progress by understanding the muck and myer of day to day. When you're like buried in the stretch in the spreadsheet, you're not thinking like you're making any progress. Also in a startup and small businesses all over the place, it's like bad things happen more often than not. And so it's important for you to showcase to your employees how much progress they have made, how much progress the company has made. That is by it's by research proven that the most motivating thing for people is to see the progress of their work. So if you activate those things around you, you'll do a better job retaining your people. Now if you think about going out to get people right, to attract the right talent, you've got to have strong talent because people want to play with a players, want to play with a players, you want to showcase that you in an environment which is again, doing all these for your employees, and you want to really think about when you bring employees on, how you can get them off to a strong start, because that is one of the really important predictors of whether or not they'll stay with your company and add tremendous value.

You mentioned the word A player. And I think a lot of people have different perspectives of should we hire a player, should we develop a players? Where do you come down on this with the clients you work with?

Well, what I think a lot about is, first of all is like, what are the jobs to be done? So we can sort of talk about an A player, but if they're an A player in, let's say marketing and you need an A player in, let's say sales or even more like in engineering, then they still may not be the right fit. So you've got to really identify what are the specific jobs to be done by this person and are they excellent? You have, you have evidence that they are either excellent having done that, or they have strong capacity to be able to stretch and do those things. So that's kind of first of all. And then second of all, I think it's really important to make sure that you're hiring people who both have skills and experience and also, hopefully, especially in the companies that we work with, some passion and some drive and also they're going to fit into the culture. I worked with one entrepreneur, he told me that he hired the smartest people he could find, all PhDs from Stanford. And that's amazing. But when I got there, we sort of talked about, are they working together? They're not working together because he hired super smart people who are all individual contributors. So they all wanted to kind of do their own work. So what he told me was, I have the best rowing team in the world, but they are rowing in different directions.

Now you talk about this fit to culture. One of the questions I ask on the show quite often with founders is what's the biggest mistake? And I think it's close to 50% where they will come back and say, you know, I used to believe that it was really a skill fit and making sure someone was talented. But I realized culture fit was much more important. But I know there's some other data out there that says culture fit isn't the most important. What do you see in your work?

I think culture fit is essential. I mean, listen, the truth is that if you have a strong product and a strong product market fit, you probably going to win. That's good. However you're going to do it the easy way or the hard way. You know, somebody came to me just last year who's actually a two time founder starting his third business and he said to me, in the past I have been successful despite my lack of leadership skills. Now I want to be successful and I think I'll have a better outcome if I develop the right leadership skills. And that includes very much building the right culture, which he had always dismissed as like not that important. So the point about culture is that it knits people together, it helps shape expectations, it helps everybody work faster and better and more efficiently even if you're not there. So I think that culture is not the only. It's not like this sort of the deciding factor, but I think it's a major factor in terms of whether or not you're going to win.

You know, in align. With all this talk of culture, we can't miss this without talking about values and we haven't really looked at it yet. I find that a lot of the clients I have could do a better job with it. But when I talk to someone who's really a high flying company, they will say that they live and die by these values. Some people think they're a little bit soft and squishy to be able to say that's who we are, that defines us. We hire by values. What are you seeing with your clients as it relates to values?

Well, I see with my clients that actually values are having kind of a bit of a comeback. And I see this with my clients who are very focused on making sure they write down and codify the values they want to bring into their company. And then even companies who are later stage feel like they at times they say what they what they needed, they say is a values refresh to make sure they're recommitted to the values even though they've kind of grown. Also, I started my own podcast, also called From Startup to Grownup. And inside of all those founders I've talked to, they've all mentioned how early on they're very successful founders early on in their sort of tour of duty. As you know, early on in their startup journey, they actually just spontaneously decided to write down the things that are important to them. So I think there's a strong connection between having your values, clarifying your values and company success. You know, Jim Poozas has done a number of some research on this and what's interesting to me is the findings are actually from large companies is that if a company clarifies their values, even if employees don't share those same values. Just the result of clarifying their values help people do better work more efficiently and also are more sticky to the company. So I think that's like a very hard case to be made for the so called soft point about value.

I agree. It's part of the next book I'm writing. I was asking because it's just such a simple thing that's missing in a lot of these organizations of how to use them day in and day out.

Yeah.

One thing that I was really not surprised to hear, but you were talking about in the Tempers interview that a lot of leaders don't give feedback and you didn't mention it in the things you know about an attractive company and retaining leaders. But here's the thing. I usually say it's absolutely free to tell someone you're doing a good job.

Yeah.

And then I listened to the script and you're like, and you can use that to say, and here's some things I want you to work on to be even more. And it's, it's all of it seen as positive because they're like, oh, that's my next step.

Right.

When you think about, I know you have some thoughts on how leaders are, you know, fighting themselves about giving feedback. Tell us about your perspective.

Well, I don't think leaders are fighting with themselves to give feedback. I think leaders are just like not giving feedback for various reasons. I think first of all, it's hard to remember to stop yourself in the middle of your, you know, hundred things to do to give feedback. I definitely know, I mean, we agree, I think violently on this point. Positive feedback is free, it's easy and it's enormously motivating. Right. See prior comment about making progress at work. Think about that for yourself if you've ever gotten positive feedback from somebody who you admired. Right. Or what a leader of yours, of course it was motivating. So I said to all of you leaders, please remember that it is a very important part of your job to give us positive feedback. When you do that over and over again, you create an environment where it's obvious that you care about them when and that you want their success and you're an ally. When you have an environment where you're an ally and you want for their success and you care about them, that earns you the right to then have a more difficult conversation which starts with I love what you're doing and also do more or I love what you're doing and do it a little bit differently and then that moves towards, listen, we really have a problem. I've already showcased how much I care about you. I've already showcased how much of an ally I am for you. The reason I'm telling you that we have a problem and that you have a problem that you need to fix is because I really want you to make these changes because I believe in you. I want the best for you and your career. And making these changes is going to help you thrive here longer. So if you frame the whole thing like that, then it becomes a very different experience. I think that leaders shy away from the more difficult, more negative, so called constructive conversations because they, like many people, are squeamish. And I would just say I don't think that that's a good enough reason.

Now Alyssa just talked about recognition. Now this is one place where we're absolutely in alignment around is not a narrative enough CEOs are actually recognizing the people in front of them. Maybe it's because no one's recognizing you for all the hard work and sacrifice that you've made and all of the challenges you've overcome. But you want to make sure that your job is to see those opportunities to have small little conversations with people that allow you to recognize them for the value they create, for the creativity and innovation. Maybe it's for their leadership prowess or maybe it's just for them working through some tough challenges that you know, know they have been working on. One way to do that is to select a value that someone is demonstrating and they're living that value and use the recognition to tie into because our value is blank. You have done this and it really has been a powerful way to demonstrate that you understand this value, that you are living it. I'm being a little bit undescriptive here, but I think that you probably can pick up this, this formula of tying the recognition to a value that the company has because that will give them a reason for doing that over and over and over and it will also share that with others. They will be able to get others to follow that same value because they know that it's important to you. Recognition is something that is absolutely free and is very powerful when you use it. Well, back to Alyssa. I agree. You know, we haven't left much room for this, but I want to move into the third section of your book we've been talking about From Startup to Grown up with Alyssa, the author. You have have the section on managing the company. What are the things that you see is the Biggest mistakes people making right now in managing the company.

Yeah, there, you know, new founders and I would even say more experienced. Actually I talked about this recently with one of my clients who's a second time founder. The first time he founded the company he was the co founder and chief product officer and now he is the co founder and CEO. And he told me recently about an interaction that he had with his board and his board was a little upset that he had missed two forecasts in a row. Right. Two quarters in a row. And they were wanting to have a little more frequent interaction with him in order to help him get back on track to make the budget. And he told me this like as in huffy, like can you believe it? And I was think waiting for the problem. And it turned out that was the whole story that he missed the forecast. And the boards want a little more, you know, focus with him and more frequent interactions. So I think what people make mistakes on is sort of forgetting that their responsibility is actually not just to develop beautiful product and not just to actually create a beautiful culture inside of your company, but ultimately to achieve results. And so it sounds strange, but in the, in the sort of fog of war, it's actually easy to lose sight of that. Now here are some tools to help you achieve results. Number one, a dashboard. Number two, a raci chart. Raci just is a fancy term for just standing for who's responsible, who's accountable, who needs to be consulted and who needs to be informed. Because what happens is you and product or whatever like your product people are doing their thing and they're not consulting with marketing and then they're mad when marketing gets mad. But if you clarify who needs to be consulted in the process, you're going to prevent those kinds of mistakes. And the last thing is even just clarifying roles and responsibilities will help everyone get a handle on what are we trying to get done, who's responsible for doing it, what are the inputs and outputs. And then you help you move along the path.

You mentioned the board there. And I think a lot of leaders when, when everything's going well, every everybody's happy, right. But there are times when, you know, we hit the pandemic and there are people that are behind in this and there's this whole concept of well, I've got to do what the board says, says because they're the board and the board recommends that you let someone go. And the Lord has all these kind of thoughts. What is your feedback with a CEO of a company that is, you know, having a Tough time with their board. Is it, is it managing up and really trying to do that more effectively, or is there another approach you recommend?

Well, in my book I have a whole chapter, chapter 10 on managing your board. And my thesis is this. You think about your board as another director report. Now, I know that the board is kind of your boss, but if you flip the script and you think about how you manage your board, you'll have a whole different relationship with your board. So number one, you're responsible for making sure the bill, the board themselves together have cohesion and there's a culture inside of your board. Number two, you're responsible for making sure that you have strong relationships one on one with people. So when the chips are down, they're going to stick with you. And not only that, when the chips are down, you can have a direct conversation with them. And then number three, it's very important to, you know, to have in board meetings some dialogue and create the context for how having open and honest and at times even, you know, sort of conflict in your dialogue. Because that means that they can say what they want to say. And by the way, they could be helpful, of course, helpful at times because they have their experience. But at the end of the day, they recognize that no matter what they say and they have difference of opinions, you, the CEO, are responsible for driving the company forward. I also want to say that boards don't always themselves understand their roles. And in my book, I talk about like all these different board caricatures. One is the general fighting the last battle. And I promise you that you have people on your board who are kind of relating to your company like a company they were on the board of two years ago. So you have to help them see that. You have to lead them to an understanding of the way you see your company, and that is through constructive conversation and building relationships.

You know, we keep talking about the power of communication and most CEOs think they're pretty good at communication. But when I do the 360 feedbacks, and I know you, you kind of got started in your coaching career by doing this with Marshall Goldsmith.

Yeah.

When you look at the 360 feedback, what are you getting? You know, the data comes back that surprises the CEOs.

Well, first of all, it's not, I don't experience that. All of my CEOs think they're good communicators. So first of all, like, they often know they're not good communicators. Right. And they're not sure what that means. I did work with a CEO one time and there was a whole discussion we had about culture and her expectations. And I said, well, have you made these expectations clear to your people? And she said, well, I sent them a slack, right. Which is kind of not sufficient, let's say, to make sure that, you know, these things are being, you know, focused on in the company. But I guess I would say that the biggest surprises with people with CEOs I work with are, number one, they don't realize the impact that they're having. Exactly. Because they sort of think of themselves as just me, and especially just me from, you know, the first days I started in the company, which is me and eight employees. They don't realize that their suggestions are orders, their inklings are orders, their brainstorms are orders. Right. So they don't sort of see the impact of their work, of their, of their voice and of their communication. And I think that they also don't always see how the sort of other things that are going on around them, how maybe they play favorites and they don't realize it. Maybe they gravitate, gravitate to a certain decision making style that may let other people leave other people out. So those are the kinds of things I encounter in my360 feedback.

Elisa, we've had a great conversation about your book. I really do appreciate you sharing that with the world. I know it was not easy for your book to come out. Specifically Notebook is easy. What have I forgotten that you really want to make sure we put a spotlight on as we finish up today's interview.

Thank you for asking me that. First of all, it's been a great discussion and I appreciate it. And I would just maybe add that I do have 14 scripts in the appendix of my book to help you with delicate conversations, with difficult conversations. And I think that what I, the reason I put them in is because I was writing my book and it was going great and suddenly I remembered that I have these conversations with my CEOs all the time and they'll, we'll finally come to the point where they're going to have that conversation with somebody and it's delicate or delicate or difficult. Maybe it's about layering someone, maybe it's about giving difficulty feedback. And they'll say, but I don't know what to say. And then I'll say, well, why don't you just say? And then I'll land what I think they should just say. Now they're furiously writing notes and you know, they say it again. So I realized, oh, those Scripts are really valuable for people. I'm going to codify some of them and write some of them up again to help people to handle this book and to help people get their mouth around the words of difficult or delicate conversation.

Well, fantastic. That's a good place to end. It's a call to action. I'll be very clear about this great book. Thank you for sharing it with us. From Startup to Grown Up, There it is on the video. If you're watching video, we know most of you listen through audio, but that's okay. Hopefully you're going to take this information and do something with it because that's really the key. If we go back to this. Believe in yourself, but then take some action behind it. Alyssa, really thank you for sharing your wisdom.

Thank you so much, Gene. It was great to be here.

Incredible interview. I love to be able to have my peers on the show before. I don't often have a lot of coaches, but this one was quite special. Alyssa is a powerhouse. I really do believe that she has insight site and she has such deep experience that this interview had to be something that we would talk about. She works with a lot of startup companies and so that's one reason why I wanted to have her on the show. I am enjoying this book from Startup to Grown up and it really is a powerful read. One of the things I wanted to really invite you to this moment is if you are considering how to use a coach or how to hire a coach or select a coach, one of the things you want to make sure is that there's a personality fit. The personality could be you may think Alyssa is great for you and what you're doing. And I know her, she's in very much demand. And the new book coming out, maybe you want to wait for that or maybe you want to find a coach that's in your industry that really will help you understand some of the difficulties inside the industry that you're focused on. Or maybe you want to upgrade your leadership. That's my focus, is helping you be an extraordinary leader as you move forward, helping you grow your business without spending more time and adding more stress to what you're doing. That's my specialty inside of this world of executive coaching. But you want to make sure that you choose a coach that is the best fit for you. And the coach that doesn't challenge you, the coach that doesn't support you in the way that you need to be supported isn't going to be the one that gets you what you really need. Now, I will say that most coaches are pretty good at these things. I would not say that in executive coaching world there's not many bad coaches. Now that makes it harder for you because you want to make sure that you are finding the right one for you to really whoever your investing time is will get the most out of that time. So all that being said, I want to help you. If you want to have a conversation with me, I would love to help you figure out what that exact thing is missing in your path to be an extraordinary leader. To aligning your people to inspiring ownership across the team and about leading powerfully. That's my job. I want to help you do that. All you have to do is go to genehammet.com and schedule your call. Inside that call, we'll have a conversation that you're not having with anyone else. Your board, your executive team, your significant other or even the investors that you have because you want to show up differently for those conversations. And my job is to help you show up as powerfully as you can is clear and really understand what the focus of those conversations. I have these all the time with my clients and this is what I love to do most is help you figure out how you want to show up as a leader in those difficult moments as you move forward and lead through all the chaos. So just go to genehabet.com and schedule your call. Look forward to talking to you. When you think of growth and you think of leadership, think of growth Think tank As always, we recourage. We'll see you next time.