Roger McNamara From Visa Joins Us Again | Biz To Biz Podcast

Welcome to the Biz to Biz Podcast, your number one source for all business news. Hey, hey everybody, welcome to this edition of B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz Podcast sponsored by Nationwide Payment Systems and our new gateway NPS1, the smart invoicing tool for businesses. And today we have a special guest on the show making a return appearance, actually one of my favorite guests. Also a good friend of mine for many, many, many years. We go back to the days when I was in the restaurant business. Roger McNamara, Vice President of Visa of the B2B division. So welcome to the show, Roger.

Yeah, you gave me a vaulted title. I'm only director.

I'm not a— Director. Okay.

I don't want anybody to get crazy on that now.

Okay. He's the director of B2B. Roger, Um, we connect over this whole B2B thing because I'm really into helping business-to-business merchants, and Roger also is very involved in business-to-business on the Visa side, and he was also doing that in another role, and he teaches people about B2B, and it's a huge opportunity not only for people that are in the payments industry to work with B2B merchants, but for B2B merchants in general too. We're going to discuss today how to improve your cash flow, how to change what you're doing in your business, and not to look at, you know, credit sometimes is looked at as a bad thing, you know, but getting paid with plastic can help accelerate your cash flow. So we're going to dive into a bunch bunch of different subjects around this today, and I'm glad to have Roger. What— say, give a little— some opening remarks.

Well, Allen, I'm thrilled to be here. You know, I don't know how many of your guests get to come back second time, but thrilled to get the invite. Um, yeah, we go back a long way, and happy to share with your audience, um, you know, the merits of card payments and acceleration and using card and really busting that myth that cards are a huge expense and the largest expense on the acceptance side for a business. You know, there's a lot of myths and a lot of people buy card in B2B like they're a retailer, but how you use card can really be the key to success. So yeah, happy to be here and we'll delve into those subjects.

Yeah, one of like the big things with businesses lately has been subscription models, you know, and I've done podcasts about and written blog posts about the subscription economy, right? And it's a huge way for— we've seen businesses, you know, to develop subscription models in all sorts of different businesses, from plumbing to home service businesses, business services, all kinds of services. I mean, I see an enormous growth in that area.

Yeah, I mean, selling knowledge is huge. So I saw it the other day. I forget what it was. You mentioned plumbing, but it was a plumber and you could subscribe and it was $4.99. It's a new source of revenue for them to create content and put it on there. You know, from a B2B perspective, you know, being able to secure payments without having to wonder where they're coming from or whatever, Card is a great tool for that. I don't know that in the B2B segment we do a lot of subscription-based models, but Certainly those plumbers, when we get into distributors and things like that, electrical distributors, plumbing supply places, you know, there's a huge opportunity for those guys to use card efficiently to collect their receivables, lower their DSO, and accelerate their cash. So yeah, but I do see— I know what you're talking about on that subscription side. There's a lot of people monetizing their knowledge, and maybe you should be doing that, Allen. You should be putting out a subscription-based model there.

100 bucks a month model to the B2B Vault.

Yeah, $100 bucks a month. Allen will tell you everything he knows.

Everything he knows for $999, uh, $999 for an hour. And no, but like, I saw, like, we have a client and they're doing pest control for restaurants. So instead of them chasing after the restaurant and, oh, where's my money, where's my money, they put them on a subscription now. So now the restaurant's paying and the guy shows up every week or 2 weeks or whatever in spring for, you know, taking care of the restaurant.

Yeah, I mean, zero receivables is a good thing. You know, small businesses have really done a very good job of this. I mean, I've talked to small businesses, people I know, I own businesses, you know, where they carry zero receivables. Now you talk to bigger businesses and they've got, tons of receivables, and they're— and a couple of problems they have is they can't get cash in fast enough, and they have an issue with labor. So what is it that the small business is doing that's different? And I think you've said it there— they've looked at card as a collection tool, and they'll put card into place, uh, in such a way as that the day that the person goes out and exterminates or bug sprays that, that restaurant They're billed. There is no term. They'll take term with their issuer, and that pest control place gets their cash immediately in-house, albeit at a small cost, but less expensive than waiting 30 days for it and then eventually chasing that restaurant. Or perhaps that restaurant goes out of business and they don't get paid for that money. So card can be used as that tool. And again, it doesn't really matter what the business is to accelerate that cash. You know, You and I have chatted about this. One of the things I think our industry needs to be more aware of is the time value of money.

Yes.

Like presently funds prime rate in the US is 7.25%. That's the Wall Street Journal. The Fed guidance is 4.25% at the moment. But I don't think enough of us in the industry really understand the time value of money. You know, and B2B has that uniqueness to it that you and I chat about, which is term is given. And whenever term is given, that means that business waits to receive its money or getting paid. But if you can accelerate that and you don't have to use your own cash or you don't have to borrow to finance your business to keep it open day to day, card can be a very, very low-cost source of working capital to help you do that. And working capital is just money that comes in that helps you in the day-to-day operation of that business without costing you an arm and a leg. I mean, you know, if you look at interchange, I don't know too many rates above the Fed guidance or above Wall Street Journal. I know there's certainly no interchange rates above 7% for sure.

No, but for sure there's no interchange. I mean, maybe the most expensive card is like 3.5%, but that's like some special card.

Yeah. So, so huge opportunity. And I kind of wonder sometimes with larger businesses why they don't view card as that solution. And a lot of time it's because they have a mature base of customers on fixed terms and they're unwilling to exchange term for use of card. And I think if the buyer were given that option, use card, not be able to use card, they would in most cases exchange that term and use card at an accelerated stance in order to be able to pay and on the back end take term, get their points, rewards, whatever it is they get.

Yeah. When you look at it, when you're like, I had a business, I've helped quite a few businesses like understand, like, okay, you're owed. I had one guy that was owed like $20,000 to $30,000. He was carrying every month. Right. And then I had another client several years ago. And there's a real success story, a success story. They were literally chasing after 6 figures., and I— and somebody introduced me to them, and they got the— the business was a CPA office, and he had also this book— he bought a bookkeeping business, and the bookkeeping business had like 300 clients. And he's like, every month I'm calling these people, I'm trying to collect my money, I'm trying to get— and back— and that— this goes back a long time. They would have the sales their guys go out and actually go pick up like all the, the receipts and invoices from these people, and they would be putting it in QuickBooks, right? Yeah, yeah. And I said to him, I said, why don't you have all these customers just sign a paper? And I brought them over the paperwork, and then you can have them, they can choose ACH or credit card, and then the beginning of the month you just charge everybody. So they started doing that And within 3 months, they had like 90+% signed up. Okay, instead of having 5 employees chasing people down and collecting 2, 3 months at a time, they had all their money in the bank. And today, when I see how well they're doing in business, they went from doing like barely not even $100,000 a month to now they're doing like over $500,000 a month.

Wow, wow.

That part of their business because they don't have to chase people for money. They were able to grow, grow their business, you know.

Wow.

And, and it's crazy. And even the guy who had like 20, 30 grand, right, he was having to buy supplies, put it on his credit card, pay his employees, and then every month, you know, then he's got to pay off his credit card or he's paying interest on it until he's getting paid from these customers. And I go, you got to stop this. You're— you— he was fighting with his wife, and he's fighting with the sales guys and the sales— I'm like, dude, just tell people, like, if you can't pay me up front, we don't want to do business with you.

Yeah. And, um, even, even go, even go a step further, Allen. You know, you describe that, and that scenario is replicated over and over and over again in the B2B world. You and I have seen it ourselves together. Um, but imagine just this one other thing there. Imagine how efficient he's become now. So like, I like to paint this picture for people and say, when I'm on 30-day term and I don't pay my bill until day 45, let's say the DSO, it's really between day 30 and 45 where all the expense that you talk about gets added in because their system will generate a second invoice It'll print it, post it, mail it out to the buyer, says overdue. They'll have potential for bad debt. They'll have expensive telephone calls out. I did some research on this, you know, for to pick up the phone and chase your money on a Dialing for Dollars Friday, which I see a lot of businesses engaged in, a minimum of $25 every time they pick up a phone and make a phone call. That's what I've been told that it costs. If you're calling 3 times, you're adding $75 cost to the invoice before you get paid. So the amount of efficiency that you bring out of your system by placing that person on a card payment prior to term or whenever that is during the cycle that you choose it is, is a way more better proposition than paying, than waiting for that money. To pay the small amount to accept that card is just huge advantage to your business.

Yeah, it's a huge advantage because now you're, instead of having like I was telling you about the accounting guys, they're— that they were, you know, literally had probably 20 hours or more tied up with 3, 4, 5 employees, right, that you're paying good money to. Now those employees can do actual work, accounting work, that you're getting paid for, right? And you're not chasing after money, because chasing money, there's just no way to, to you know, chase money like that. It just doesn't make sense.

No, no, there's a better way.

We have a client, like, I'll tell you, we have this one client that came to us a few years ago, and they're, well, we sell cell phone parts to huge companies, and literally, like, their average transaction size is anywhere from $100,000 to $500,000. That's their average transaction. They process between $1,000,000 and $2,000,000 with us every month. Sure, just a few transactions. Yeah, and The guy's like, yeah, these companies, he goes, we tell them like, there's no way we're giving you 30. You want to float the money? Put it on your card.

Absolutely. Let the issuer deal with it.

Let your bank take care of that. You pay them over time. We don't want to— we can't get paid over time and then have the inventory that you want to buy from us.

Well, just, just, you know, in that vein, the issuer deals with that. The issuer will not credit risk that buyer unless he has that ability to spend and pay. I mean, these banks, that's their business. That's their form, new form of lending. We used to see it years ago. People would get business loans or they would get lines of credit. Now businesses are using card and card tools to operate their business. The vast majority of small businesses in this country use a payment product, and it is a key financing tool of their business strategy. And the more businesses that allow them to do it, the better opportunity they'll have to serve those clients and serve them profitably.

Yeah. So it gives you the, as the business owner, you know, nothing, nothing should really be leaving your business until you get paid. And this way you're maximizing your profit because every day, I know one time you told me it was like 2 basis points a day, but it's probably now that was in a good economy when we talked about that several years ago. Now I'm sure that it's costing more basis points per day. Every day you don't get paid?

Well, I'll just tell you the numbers. If you're at 9.5% weighted average cost of capital and you wait 45 days for your money, it's costing you 117 basis points to finance that receivable over 45 days. So when you think it costs you nothing to wait for your money, do the math on the time value of money. Now look at Card, that, that business you gave a great example of there with $500,000 transactions. They qualify for LTI. So now the LTI rate is 145 and 35, soon to go down with good data to 130 and 35. So now we're almost at parallel to cost on ACH. And now let's talk about the efficiencies that it brings, the tax benefit that it brings, the inflation mitigation that it brings, and the customer service aspect that, that buyer and supplier now have because the buyer is using a payment vehicle with that supplier that is important to him, and it's economical for the supplier to be able to accept that. So, you know, we've got to a point now where card, busting that myth about it being the most expensive collection option a supplier can offer its buyers, you know, we're now on the other side of that equation.

Yeah, you were telling me when we were having a conversation at a convention a couple months ago about you know, the ability where merchants could be processing these huge transactions, you know, millions of dollars on a card. Talk about that.

Well, like, you know, one of the things, the misnomers I hear all the time is people, you know, cap out transactions. You know, we won't take a transaction above $10,000. And I often ask them, why is that? And they say, well, you know, because the fees associated with it. And I'm saying, well, hold on a second. You know, are you familiar with LTI, Large Ticket Interchange? Are you familiar with Level 3? Are you passing data that would allow you to qualify for the lowest rates? Sometimes I get blank stares back. They don't know what I'm talking about, or they do know. You know, I've done deals where transactions have been massive. I did a transaction this year for in excess of $85 million. And what made sense to the supplier was the acceleration of those funds. They wanted to be paid faster on that money than have to borrow against that receivable to finance their business. And the arithmetic worked out very favorable for them. So, you know, those are the things that were out there, we see out there today. The size of the transaction shouldn't matter. You know, let's, let's be clear, if you're not taking card and you have a million-dollar transaction, then that's a million-dollar liability that you're carrying because you haven't been paid and you have to risk that. And you have to make sure that you'll get paid and you have to chase it down. Um, and not always does that work out the way you thought it would. Sometimes, you know, you will be a recipient of some of that in bad debt. Sometimes you'll get paid on time, but sometimes that person is carrying that receivable out to the maximum and you, the supplier, are financing that. So is there an alternative way and a better way? I believe there is, through card payments.

Yeah, there's definitely a better way to get paid. We see very few merchants Sometimes with like insurance companies, we see it where we'll have— I'll get a phone call from a merchant and they'll be like, oh, I have this, I'm doing, you know, construction company and we're doing this big job and the insurance company is going through a third-party bill payment service and they want to give us a credit card. And these credit cards, we've had them come through for $300, $400, $500, $700. $100,000 and there's no way. I mean, we sent over like the first time the packet to the risk department. It was a huge packet, like hundreds of pages of construction documents.

Sure.

People signing off on that things were done and everything. And they were like, yeah, there's no risk on this. There's no way it's getting charged back, you know.

Well, that's another misnomer. I think, you know, chargebacks and in B2B, the great thing about card payments is we have a functional process in case there is a dispute. And I say in case. Many of the times what we see in B2B is the buyer and supplier have a long-lasting relationship and they will solve their issue outside of the chargeback procedure. You know, this isn't like we're buying something from across the ocean on a— from a business we've never seen before. A lot of the time these buyer-supplier relationships are very in-depth. So although there is a process there which is great for chargebacks, I seldom see that come to fruition in B2B. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but for the most part, um, the safety net of the chargeback procedure is there. I'll, I'll say this to you: try and track down an ACH when you send it to the wrong account, or a wire when it's sent to the wrong account. There is no process in place for this. This is a very laborious process to go and rectify these things and you have to do a lot of the work yourself. In the card relationship, there is an acquirer, there's an issuer, there's a buyer, there's a supplier, there is an independent in a lot of cases on the acquiring side involved. So there's many people that will do the lifting of taking care of that in case there is a problem. But on the other side of the fence, you know, there isn't a whole lot there that you can hang your hat on. That's why card again. The other thing I was going to say to you is, you know, in these transactions, and I know it's kind of a nuance, but these are, These are charge cards. So these are cards— and why the issuing banks— excuse me, your risking department, when you underwrite these deals for merchant services, are so good to these accounts is because the issuing bank credit risks the buyer. If he didn't give them the open to buy, then they wouldn't approve that card and you wouldn't get that transaction. And they place them on a charge product where there is no interest at the back of the end. So that buyer, once he makes that payment to the supplier, his account is being swept by the issuer on a particular date and he incurs no interest in a lot of the cases on these commercial products that are out there because they're charge products. Whereas with a credit card, you know, somebody who doesn't pay their bill will incur interest on that. These are some of the best customers you can attract to your business because they're coming with all their disposable income. They have no interest to pay. They're not paying interest on these. It's whatever they have open to buy on their card limit is what they're able to spend. And again, I would point out this: if you're able to accelerate payment from a buyer, then you multiply the amount of stuff that you can sell them. So if you put someone on 7-day pay on card, every 7 days they're paying on card. You have 4 opportunities in every given month to sell them whatever you've credit risked them for because they've settled their debt with you and you're not accumulating that debt internally. So it's a much better proposition for the buyer-supplier relationship as well.

Oh, it's definitely, it's definitely like from a chargeback perspective, you know, we deal with all kinds of businesses. B2B, there is little to none, no activity. The only time we ever see something happen in B2B is when somebody gets literally like gets hit with fraud. Like it's a totally fraud. Like we had somebody and they, somebody ordered something from this large, uh, we have this large company that is a distributor of, um, kitchen equipment, and somebody ordered like 3 ovens, and it was a lot of money, and they came and picked it up in a UPS— in a truck. And when they looked at their cameras after the person did it, they got the chargeback. All the license plate was covered up, all the numbers on the side of the rental truck were covered up. They there was nothing that they could do. Yeah, that's one thing, you know, you can't get— you have to make sure you're like, you're making sure that, you know, oh, this is when you get a new customer that you're vetting them out. Okay, who is this customer? What's their address? What's their phone number? What's their email? You're checking them in Google and everything to make sure. Absolutely. Yeah, this is a real business. I'm talking to the owner, you know, things like that. Yeah. Vet things out so that you're not doing things. Or, you know, one of the oldest credit card scams was ships. You would be shipping something to an address that was a freight forwarder, or a freight forwarder would be coming to pick stuff up.

No, not a good look.

Don't even— like, I tell merchants all the time, I'll get— I got a phone call recently from somebody and they're like, oh, this guy ordered like $10,000 worth of stuff and he's going to have this freight forwarder, this freight company, come pick it up. And I looked up the company, I was like, no, just void the transaction, forget it. The guy's like, no, I want to make the money. I go, no. I say, if you go start calling around or researching this business, it's not real. 100%. Turned out it was. They called the freight forwarder and the freight forwarder said, oh yeah, we were picking it up and shipping it to the Bahamas. The guy's like, whoa.

Yeah.

No way. You can't, you can't do that.

Yeah, you got to be vigilant. Common sense is what it has to apply there.

Yeah, because there's so much fraud out there. You have to, you know, the simple fraud is like coming back, you know, to fruition. So let's talk about, you mentioned, you know, before when you're processing cards about, you know, Level 2, Level 3, and we know, you know, now they're changing the name of that to CE DP, right? And a lot of companies were basically like, you would go into their portal and put in some information, and that same information would be used over and over again, sent to the credit card companies. And I'm sure that Visa and MasterCard, American Express saw, hey, there's something weird going on here with all this canned data coming over. So now they're making it a little bit more— I don't say it's more strenuous to the merchant, but they're making sure that people aren't just passing canned data or data that was— that's just used over and over and over again.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I don't want to get too in-depth on the policy side because that's not my remit here at Visa. But let me just tell you my kind of personal thoughts on this. I think anytime as a supplier you can qualify for lower interchange, you should investigate that. And one of those ways that you can do that is by passing data on certain transactions. Now, prior to CEPD, that was on commercial card only. So 4 types of cards: corporate purchasing card, government card, fleet card, and T&E cards. If you pass the correct data on those, you could qualify potentially for, uh, a lower rate. Um, that is getting it to Level 3. Um, now you could also qualify for LTI, which is Large Ticket Interchange, once those transactions went above $7,775. Incidentally, 145 and 35 is exactly the same as 190 and 10. At $7,775. That's the breakeven point. So on LTI, the larger the transaction gets, the actual lower the net effective cost becomes, because $35 as a percentage of the average transaction becomes lower.

Exactly.

So this is why I say to you before, you know, when you have a $10,000 and you say, well, I don't want to take it for a $20,000, it's actually less rate, uh, on the face of it, um, when you take on a $20,000 transaction, because $35 has less of an effect on the transaction than $10,000 does. So the, um, the idea of getting a lower rate, uh, has been out there for a number of years. And to do that, the networks were asking— the issuers really were asking for data to be passed in the transaction. And for the most part, people pass data, not always the best data, not always good data. Um, and this year the networks have looked at changing that and agreeing to lower interchange rates for good data. But if you don't pass the good data, you may find that your interchange rate is affected on the high side. So to give you some idea, the 1.90 and 10 is going to 1.75 and 10 with good data, and the 1.45 and 35 is going to 1.30 and 35 with good data. So that, that's just in general the program. The one thing I would say in extension to this is small business or business cards never qualified for anything beyond Level 2. Now you can pass the same information that you're passing on a commercial card on a business product, and you can receive in 5 product codes, 1 through 5, a lower interchange rate. I would consult with your acquirer to find out what those interchanges are. But yeah, so now for small business and for commercial, Passing the right data is another reason why you should be taking card because the interchange rates are becoming lower on those. So I think the program is designed to reward those that pass good data. I talk to large merchants all the time. I have merchants who are flawless at passing the data. I have others that are not so great at it. You know, everyone's been aware now for quite some time of what they needed to do. I've got folks in the middle of projects. I've got people completed projects. You know, acquirers have been spreading this information out to the merchant base. So that's kind of the genesis of the program. I mean, I'm a big, big proponent of it because in B2B, if you're seeing business and commercial cards, you want to drive down that average interchange rate. And the way you do it is by passing the correct data.

Yeah, that's why we have the NPS1 smart invoicing tool. And built into that— sorry for the plug, shameless plug— we built in there level— it says it has a level 2, level 3 to detect the business card and the other commercial cards. But what it does is it verifies that that card is eligible so it doesn't send data when it's not supposed to send data, right?

Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I have seen other gateways do this that are out there today. You know, it's important. I mean, you know, if these are the rules that are set, you know, comply with the rules and, you know, there's good stuff on the other side of it. If you don't, unfortunately, you know, you probably need to look into this, talk to your acquirer and figure out what you need to be sending to an order, the lowest possible interchange rate on those. But I don't think you'll be able to pack data, if that's a term that's used, And if anybody had done that in the past, I think that probably those days will be over.

Yeah. Another thing that a lot of merchants don't realize is how important it is that you have a really accurate SIC code for your business because there are a lot of SIC codes that qualify for lower interchange. And, you know, if your business qualifies for that and you send the correct paperwork in, you know, business licenses and things like that to show that you have this particular type of business. There are breaks on interchange for that too.

So yeah, and that's why you, Allen, as being a B2B guy and running this vault and this podcast, you know, you have a different outlook on this than, say, others that are really B2C focused and don't understand the nuances of B2B. It's really important to be with an acquirer that, that gets that, is B2B-centric and focused and can guide you in the right way for what it is that you need to be doing to afford of those, lowest interchange rates. But yeah, I think, I think the program and the changes are coming into effect here very shortly. And I think, you know, from what I've talked to people so far that I know, my personal opinion is that it's welcome. They needed to make this change and they're making the change and they're going to avail of the lower rates with the good data.

Yeah. So any other— give us some, give us some good nuggets for like a business owner that, you know, they thought about it, you know, using plastic. Give us 3, give us some good, some good reasons why a business owner, they're maybe, they're very reluctantly take plastic or don't take plastic. And let's get some good reasons why they should be taking plastic.

Well, let me say this. I would say, you know, that anybody is out there that's considering card payments as a collection tool and hadn't— haven't taken card in the past, come in with a clean slate and do it as you mean to go on. So a couple of things. One, I would say when you talk to Allen or your acquirer, dispel the myth of this 3 to 4% cost that's out there. You know, talk to an acquirer who is B2B focused and don't buy it like a retailer. Buy it as a B2B business and how can you use this as a tool? So you're not going to take card and take it whenever the buyer wants to use payment. You should be sitting down with your acquirer or your ISO and discussing a relevant card acceptance policy. What is what works for me? Is it payment on invoice? Is it payment in the first 7 days of invoice? What is that? What does that acceleration look like? And all those values trigger from using Kard as that collection tool and accelerating your cash. We talked about it already, the operational efficiencies that come from that, the tax benefit, the inflation mitigation. Remember, we're still in hovering in about 2.8%, 2.9% inflation, meaning if you're waiting 45 days to get paid on an invoice, by the time you collect it, that invoice is worth less because inflation has outpaced that money. And when you go out to buy the goods to recreate what you just sold again, they are going to be marginally more expensive in the marketplace. But if you pull in those, um, balances that are outstanding with Card, you get the cash in sooner and you can make purchases sooner. So you're mitigating against inflation, you're beating inflation out there. And again, We aren't talking huge sums of money here, but these are all factors that play into the value of card that make it a lower-cost alternative at acceleration than waiting for ACH at 30 or 45 days. Allen, I'm going to say that slow again, because if people are listening to your podcast, they'll say, this guy just said that card is less expensive than ACH. When you're waiting 45 days for an ACH payment, it isn't the cost of ACH that you're looking at. It's the time value of money until you get paid. If you've accelerated those funds upfront using card and you look at all those value pillars, by the time you deduct them from the cost you pay, yes, it is less for you to get paid from that, that buyer on, let's say, a net 7 or immediate term than it is to wait 45 days for ACH.

Yeah, it's definitely getting— having good cash flow, it makes— is the difference between having a successful business and not being so successful. Because if you have the cash flow to— in, in your business, and I've— like I said, when I've talked about— I've talked— I've, I've talked to many merchants where we've talked to them and all of a sudden we get them on, you know, taking card and they're invoicing and collecting and invoicing, collecting. And they see after a month or two, all of a sudden, wow, my bank account is full, and I'm not sitting there on Friday going, man, I got to take $10,000 out of my personal account and put it in here to pay the employees because I have $30,000 of unpaid bills from my customers. They've reduced that to like almost nothing, you know, 100% because of policies. And I think that people don't care. There's, you know, there's always this thing with, you know, I tell merchants and I tell other people like, oh, whatever, even if a business charges me extra to like to take the card, I just pay them with the card because I don't— I want to just deal with at the end of the month I have one bill, whatever, I get my cash back or my points and miles, and I have just one bill to deal with to pay. And, you know, then I can deal with all the individual transactions inside QuickBooks or whatever I'm using. Businesses will pay you, gladly pay you with a credit card because they don't want to deal with, oh, I got to write a check. This guy wants a check. Or, oh, I got to use bill pay at my bank. Or now I have to figure out how to send this guy an ACH and I don't have ACH at my bank. A lot of people are banking with these fintech banks, right? And they don't even have ACH. So you have to get card from these people. And that's, you know, and as business owners get younger, right, they're all on to the card. Like, yeah, I want to pay with card. And if you don't take card, I'm just going to go somewhere else to someone else who takes card.

Yep. Yep. No, no, for sure.

That happened to clients. And they're like, yeah, I need to take card because I have people that only want to pay me with card.

Yep.

Yep.

I think you, you probably have our next topic then if I get an invite to come back on your podcast. I think accelerated cash is the antidote for surcharging in B2B. So if you're able to get your funds sooner and realize the value, then I don't think you need to surcharge because you're not waiting for those funds and paying that interchange after the fact. So yeah.

Roger's famous thing, the time value of money. You have to figure out this puzzle that your time, you know, you're not spending time collecting, you're not spending time calling, you're not sending 20 invoices to the customer. And you know, the other thing is that's hard is let's say I invoice you and now you want to buy more from me, but you haven't paid yet. So now I got to sell you more because I got to get paid on the first invoice, and you get caught into this trap. And that you have to stop that trap from happening because then when you If I cut off Roger and he owes me for 4 invoices and he doesn't have money to pay me or I don't take card, then he's going to go to somebody else and start buying from them. And then he left me in the bag, maybe owing me a ton of money. So you have to consider all these things in your business plan of, you know, nothing should leave the— nothing should leave the business until it's paid for.

Yeah. And it's— we've got to bust through this myth because, you know, as I talk to B2B players out there, card is the last thing they think of. As a solution, you know, because they've been so drilled into their head that it's too expensive. And that's, that's just not true. If you use it right and you use it in the correct fashion, you can accelerate your cash, lower your DSO. And like you said, you just have piles of cash coming in and you improve that cash flow. So. All right.

Well, I want to thank Roger for joining us today on B2B Vault. Thank you to Visa for allowing, lending us Roger and his wisdom on B2B. Because besides, I usually don't have a lot of people to talk to about B2B payments other than when I speak to business owners. So it's important for— here's, you know, you're hearing it direct from somebody that's been in the business. I've been in the business 25 years. Roger's been in here maybe even longer than me into the payments industry. And you're hearing it right from the source. Accelerate your cash. Time value of money. And if you want to find out more, listen to more episodes of B2B Vault, you can always book a demo, check out the smart invoicing tool that we have, and follow B2B Vault on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, anywhere you listen to podcasts, YouTube, and LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn, you can find Roger on LinkedIn if you need to get in touch with us. And everybody have a great day. Carpe diem. Peace out.