The Future of Global Payouts: Compliance, Crypto & Real-Time Money Movement

You're now watching B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz podcast hosted by Allen Kopelman, powered by Nationwide Payment Systems, the number one solution for payment processing. Hey, hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz podcast sponsored by Nationwide Payment Systems and our new gateway, NPS1, your payment gateway that does everything you need for your business, payment links, invoicing, two-way sync to QuickBooks, and more. For more information, go to nationwidepaymentsystems.com. You can book a demo or view one of our pre-recorded webinars. Today's guest is Ron Gruszkowski from MassPay, and we're going to get into the world of payouts and how businesses, um, can use— need to use payouts and how it works and the whole network behind it and who they service. And this is going to be really interesting conversation because we talk to businesses all the time about how they have to be compliant when they're sending money out, when they're operating a marketplace, a creator platform, uh, you know, different types of— all different types of businesses that need to send money out, not just get money in, but they have to send money out. And so we're going to talk about that today with Ron from MathBay. Ron, introduce yourself to the audience.

Well, Allen, thank you for having me. As you said, Ron Gruszkowski, I'm co-founder and CEO at Maskpay. I've been in payments for about 20 years. I helped create some of the early online remittance companies in the US and stayed in the industry for about 15 years up until about 5 years ago when we sold my last company. USend was an online remittance company in digital banking. We sold it to Banco Inter out of Brazil. And MASPay has been in business for about 5 or 6 years serving global needs for companies to disburse funds, payouts. And I'd love to double-click on it today and, and talk more about what kind of businesses need payouts, as you mentioned, how to do it compliantly.

Right. So tell us, like, you know, from— because payouts, it's not just payouts in the US, it's worldwide, right?

Correct. And it's not an easy problem to fix. So if you look at the US alone, up until maybe 10 years ago, we had ACH and wires. That's it. But today you have Venmo, you have Zelle, you have RTP, you have FedNow, you have push-to-card. You have so many ways to disperse funds and give people their, their earnings. So, and we see this fragmentation and there's additional ways for people to receive money happening all over the world. So catching up with that is not an easy task, and that's why companies like Maspa exist.

And talk a little bit about like what type of businesses are using these services today.

So when you think about it, almost any business have payout needs. They call it accounts payable. If you are a gardener, you have to pay your supplier. If you are a car dealership, you have to buy those cars. So everybody has payout needs. The question is how integral it is to the business. You have companies like social media platforms or like marketplaces, online marketplaces, where that's all they do. So an Uber is a marketplace. You have somebody who's looking for a ride and they have a driver who's, who's the supplier. They have to pay the drivers and pick and collect money from, from the rider. So especially since COVID we've seen the growth in online businesses that service marketplaces because more people were looking to earn money while they were locked in their apartments. So this trend is continuing and more people are looking for secondary jobs and more ways to, to supplement their income. And more businesses out there that rely heavily on payouts. Some of them, they look at it as a necessary evil and some of them are looking at it as a competitive advantage. And that's where Maspay comes into play where we enable those companies in an easy fashion to do it compliantly, both domestically and globally, and offer really people the way they want to get paid. Whereas beforehand, it was, again, I have to pay somebody. I don't care if it takes a day, a week, a month. I just said I'm responsible to pay them. Now you have a new generation of companies that say, I'm able to pay you in real time, and that's why you should work with me versus company B. So it's an interesting shift that is happening in the market.

Yeah, there's definitely been a shift since COVID with the gig economy and people having a side hustle, right? And everybody want, you know, and people want to get paid and they need that cash flow, you know, you know, in their life. So that's why they're doing all this. And, and, you know, one of the things you talked about is compliance, and this is something we do. We have, we do consulting also at our company, so people come to us for consulting, and then we have to we get referred by a business from an attorney and they're like, oh, this company is sending out money. And we're like, whoa, right? So, and they don't understand that they're violating anti-money laundering laws by not being licensed as an MSB, money service business. So talk a little bit about that.

Yeah. And we see it all the time. You have digital businesses that are saying, oh, all I'm doing is I'm introducing one party to another party. And I'm taking a small commission by moving the money between one and the other. But if you think about it, you have a company who's taking money from one party and sending it to another party for a fee. And that's really the definition of a money service business. This is the same thing Western Union and MoneyGram has been doing. So how do you stay away from it? Well, you have two ways. One is you get licensed or registered as a marketplace by the card networks, which means then you have sponsor banks that are facilitating it. And the second option is you work with FBO structure, bank-owned accounts, where you are staying out of flow of funds. And that's a solution that MassPay and other companies are offering with our, with various sponsor banks where we keep our clients out of flow of funds. So the money comes in from their PSP, let's say they use a Worldpay or an Adyen or checkout.com. The money settles into an FBO in their name, or the name of their clients rather, but with the team of the banks. It's a bank account keeping them out of flow of funds. So they're not responsible for the money. They can keep the agreed-upon commission. Let's say they charge 10%. So 10% will go to their operating account. The rest will go to the users to hold the funds on behalf, the users or the sellers or the suppliers on the marketplace. And this is a flow that has been more and more taken advantage of by marketplaces who do not want to pursue— they're not the Western Union. So for them to go down the licensing route of money transmitter makes less sense for like a tech company who's just trying to match between two parties and facilitate the payment for them.

Yeah, we just saw, you know, Elon Musk doing his like XPay or whatever he's calling that, what he spent almost 2 years getting all the licenses. Correct.

It's not easy to do. You see again some more companies trying to pursue an OCC charter. All those companies trying to get a bank charter. So it is an easy path. Instead of going the 50-state registration, you can go with licenses, you can go with a single regulator, which is the Fed. But again, for a tech company who is not really in the money transmission business, makes less sense if they can outsource those responsibilities to the banks. Who already have the oversight and know how to move money. They just need help of fintechs like, like MaskPay to do it in a global fashion.

Yeah, we saw, you know, Georgia, the state of Georgia opened up that whole bank charter thing. And I thought that we would see quite a few payments companies go in there and try to do bank charters. But that didn't really happen at all.

Yeah, I mean, owning a bank is not necessarily everybody's dream. You know, it's, it's like owning a gardening business because you need a gardener. I mean, the existing banks are doing a really good job and sponsoring and doing it compliantly and enabling payments companies to do the business that the payments companies do not have to displace those vendors. I think the ecosystem is quite healthy and you have a lot of banks and growing number of banks that are more comfortable in investing in being able to support fintechs. And payment companies, um, that I think that it's not as appealing as it maybe was 10, 15 years ago.

So when that, you know, when you're paying out money, when you're paying out money to people, are there payment failures because money's crossing from like the US to an Asian country? Are there countries where you can't get paid, you know, can't get sent money because they're restricted? You know, like I know I get— it's funny, but I get a lot of messages from people and they're like in Australia, India. There are a lot of companies trying to set up, you know, payments in the US. And I try to explain to them, you have to have meaningful presence. You know, you can't just get around the rules anymore like you used to. And even Stripe doesn't operate like in the— in the— in a lot of jurisdictions either. So like how do you guys, what do you, how do you deal with that when people have customers in a jurisdiction that's in a country that's, you know, restricted or if it's difficult to send money there because maybe there's only one particular way they can get their money?

Well, I think you touched, you know, right, right, the pain point. So obviously there are restricted and sanctioned countries that nobody should operate in and definitely we do not operate in. We cannot send money to Iran, right? But there are many countries that are challenging to access. I mean, you'd think New Zealand is an easier place, right? It's part of the Western world. It actually isn't. I'm sending money to a bank here in New Zealand is not as trivial as one would think. Failure rates are a thing. Imagine when you send money to another country, you need to support the format for the local rails. I mean, I'll give you an example. Let's say you are trying to send money to to a business in Guatemala, and whenever you call the business, you put in the country code and you put in the phone number, you know, the plus, whatever, you're able to call them. Well, it could be that the bank there is asking for the local format of the phone number, which does not have the country code, meaning you need to start normalizing and ingesting and digesting the data to match the requirements of the local institutions. Now, it could be that in one country, the local institution is a bank, But another one is the mobile carrier, or it could be that it's the grocery store where people actually get their monetary value. In every country, it's a different world, and you might have more than one way, just like we have in the US, that where people want to get the money. One wants Venmo, one wants a check. You have the same sort of preferences in different countries, and it's complex. And you can have a scenario where, I mean, true, true, true story, we send money to a country in Africa.. And for 2 days the bank did not have generators up, so the system were down. So things can go very, very interesting and very bizarre in different countries. And that's why companies like Maspay exist, because we help standardize and normalize it. So our clients send us the data, they tell us, I want to send money to country X to an account in this mobile carrier or this bank account or this cash pickup location, and we are able to automatically process it there. With automatic failover and ingesting and massaging the data to make, to make sure it matches the specifications of the bank you're trying to send money to without putting that burden on the client. So again, you touched right on it. It's a complex thing to do and it's really hard if you're trying to do it yourself.

So today, you know, there's a lot of, you know, talk about crypto, crypto this, crypto that, stablecoins. And, you know, one of the things I've been saying, you know, we were very active with crypto at our company, helping businesses process crypto. And then when Biden came in office, they changed the IRS designation from cryptocurrency to digital assets, and then they changed the whole tax situation about around that. Now that's in the US. Outside of the US, crypto is still being exchanged back and forth. So is there a lot of demand for payments to be sent in crypto today?

So let's separate crypto from stablecoins because they do have some separate treatment, right? We are big proponents of stablecoins. We do see a growing demand for it, specifically on the B2B side, less on the B2C side. When you think about it, there is no great incentive for somebody to— outside the US, in the US, definitely not a great incentive for somebody to hold stablecoins. Because you can offer real-time availability of funds with RTP and FedNow or Venmo or Cash App or other means. Why would you need stablecoins? In other countries, we see demand for stablecoins on the consumer side, mostly where people are looking to hedge their earnings against the US dollars. We think about it, it's an easy way to essentially store money in US dollars without having a US dollar bank account, right? Somebody, let's say in Brazil or Argentina, where there is a big fluctuation of the currency, they might be looking to hedge their earnings in US dollars. So we see bigger demand there. But on the B2B side, you have more— a growing, call it, class of businesses that are able to transact among themselves with stablecoins. So that should have a utility for it. And that's why we see on the B2B side, it's just— it's fast and you can send large amounts. Without the delays that maybe will come with a SWIFT wire. So we are a big proponent of stablecoins. We do see some growing demand. I think there is a positive momentum in the market, especially with the passing of the Regulus Act in the US. We see more banks comfortable with it. So we are very, very bullish, if you will, on stablecoins and adoption of it. But ultimately, for most businesses, individuals around the world, they still need fiat to go to the supermarket, right, to pay gas bill. And as long as this is the case, I think that converting from stablecoins to fiat is going to be a big part of it. And that's why we have a lot of companies that say, I want you to move it in stablecoins, but ultimately I want you to deliver fiat to some endpoint. And we are native to both, so we can support both stablecoin movement and crypto. We like to joke internally, if people want us to ship goats, we'll ship goats. We are a value movement company. Um, whatever are the means, you know, today is this, tomorrow it's going to be something, who knows what. Um, still irrelevant. You need to have a compliant way to understand who you're sending money to, to be able to sanction screen and aggregation rules and money laundering rules. Those are not going away regardless of the means or the value that you're transferring. And that's really what we're trying to do, normalize it. So whatever are the new means, so somebody wants to get paid in a particular country, it's abstracted to our clients.

Yeah, because it's a lot of people probably in countries where their currency is unstable, you know, they get a stablecoin, then they wait to convert it when they can get more money for their money, you know. Swap out the stablecoin for their currency when it's in a good spot where they can get more money for it, right? Essentially, like people in, like, I don't know, Forex. I'm not a big proponent of it, but it's like currency trading, right? So people are trading currency to make money. So same thing goes on with, with crypto. Do you think there's going to come a day where the banks are are gonna be the custodians of crypto and it's gonna go away from companies like Coinbase and things like that?

I mean, if you look at Coinbase, you know, you have those companies that are doing custody becoming banks now.

Right.

And you're gonna have banks are gonna become crypto companies, if you will. I think it's, it's a, it's a positive move. For consumers, if you look at banks, you have institutions that have compliance procedures, essentially safeguarding our money. And I think most people will feel comfortable if those institutions can also safeguard stablecoins or crypto in general, because they already have the policies, they have the security, they have the right regulation in place to safeguard our money. That's— most of the regulation is really designed for that, to ensure that they can safeguard our funds. And I think most people will be comfortable doing that. You have the legacy, call it crypto gang, that we're looking to decentralize it. They don't want anybody to do oversight. I think that's phasing away. I mean, you still have those, those people, but I think, um, the adoption that we see in stablecoins is coming with, um, the right framework around compliance, because ultimately we want to have a safe environment. And, um, and we believe that definitely banks— I mean, again, we Since the Genius X, we do see the bank's interest is growing, and you see some big banks like JP Morgan making some announcements around stablecoins. But I believe there's going to be a growing trend there, and a lot of it will be driven by the cores. I mean, if you look in the US side, there are a handful of companies that are essentially serving as the cores for all major institutions, and most institutions do not maintain their own core. They're using like a Jack Henry or Fiserv. And once those cores start supporting stablecoins, I think it's going to be very easy for a lot of these institutions to ultimately offer it to their clients and for people to stop walking with USB drives in the pocket but give their address, the wallet address or the account address that is custodied by one of those banks.

Yeah, because it was interesting when I first started learning about crypto, That's what people were doing. They had all their money like on a USB and there was no Coinbase and they were not, you know, checking. Now, like if you run crypto transactions, the crypto serial numbers are all checked to make sure they weren't involved in ransomware, a criminal act, somebody blackmailing. And then, you know, Coinbase or whoever is past checking those transactions, they seize those coins. To, right?

Yeah. I mean, you have companies like Chainalysis and Elliptic, I think are doing a really good job and providing companies, you know, financial institutions and companies like MassPay with real-time data about those wallets. And again, the whole idea is we're, we're looking to support as many means of transfer of value, but the idea is to keep it as compliant. So it's a safe ecosystem because nobody wants to be enabling illicit activity, whatever it is. And I think that those tools are definitely making it easier. I mean, when you think about it, if a bank is getting a wire today, they have no idea where the money came from.

I mean, they check— they check wires too to make sure, especially like where did the money originate sometimes when it's international wires.

So I'm talking about domestic. You are trusting that the institution it came from is doing their due diligence on the front end, which, you know, it's not bad because they're regulated and you can assume so.. But with stablecoins or with blockchain, you can actually verify it yourself, right? Because you can look at the source of funds, you can see exactly what account it came from and what transactions this account has conducted in order to receive the money. So in a way, I think it's an even safer ecosystem if it's, if it's built upon properly. And again, I think banks are getting more educated about, the advantages of it and starting to build products around it. I think ultimately it's gonna be a net positive for consumers. I think there's going to be a lot less questions being asked when you receive a wire. Hey, what's the purpose of funds and who is it coming from? Because the bank is going to be able to conduct their due diligence on-chain without even insulting you, if you will. So I think, again, ultimately it's going to be a net positive. It's just, it's a growing process that we are right in the midst of.

It'll be interesting to see if like, you know, like there's 7 banks that own the Zelle network. So it'll be interesting like if those 7 banks like go after Coinbase, right, together. And like buy some sort of net, put some network together to move coin. One thing I've definitely seen with stablecoin is the price of Ripple and XRP is just going to the tank because now those were supposed to be the utilities, the utility coins, right? And I think that's kind of been abandoned. Do you see that also?

I mean, I think Ripple is still, you know, kicking and trying to add value to the ecosystem. Again, it's not an easy task to try to, you know, replace the SWIFT network and getting all those endpoints live. But I think the fluctuation in XRP are a little bit immaterial to whatever the, you know, Ripple is actually doing. So it will be interesting to follow. Whenever you have a coin or currency that is not stable, you will see a lot of, you know, fluctuation, manipulation. Really hard to tell. I wouldn't overlook into the fluctuations of the currency into what actually is happening with the product the company is developing.

Well, that's why people want stablecoin because they want a dollar. You know, they're going to— they want to send a dollar and get a dollar. Nobody wants to, you know, send $5,000 and all of a sudden, oh, a day later it's worth $4,500. Right. No one wants to deal with that. Sure. If it was worth $5,500, you'd be happy. Right? But we're not— businesses, you know, when they're transacting, are not in the business of gambling, right?

Correct.

So like, that's— so it would be interesting to see like how, how that goes. And like, most of the people like getting paid, is it like a lot of just like the gig economy? Is that like the main driving force behind payouts besides like things like insurance? Is it more like this whole like marketplace gig side hustle business that's pushing all of this?

So I mean, that's big. But if you look at the pie of payouts in general, you have the small businesses, you know, consumers, payouts, and then you have the big pie, which is B2B, right? It's trillions of dollars. And we see tremendous growth in our company in B2B. It's a harder nut to crack. Because it's been in legacy systems for a long time. All those ERP systems, they're just sending SWIFT wires primarily. It's the legacy banks that are processing most of it. And there's a growing appetite for businesses, both on the send side and the receive side, to change it, to go more towards real-time. Because when you think about it, let's say you have a business and you are buying— you're a US business and you are buying some supplies from France. And you have an invoice and the invoice is due in 5 days because SWIFT wires are not instant. You might have a negative float, if you will, of 5 days. You might have to send it, you know, 5 days before to ensure it gets there in time. Right. Other problem is because of the nature of SWIFT wires, you cannot guarantee exactly the amount is gonna be received. So if the amount is €5,000, how do you ensure that exactly €5,000 gets there? Not easy. You have to first of all convert it yourself. Which is not easy. Go to your bank and try to buy euros, then ship it, where assuming that you pay all the fees because there are a lot of intermediaries in between. Um, and if the transaction bounces for whatever reason because you've got one letter off, a lot of friction, especially when you're a big company, you're doing thousands of thousands of wires. So I think there's a growing appetite, um, to, for alternative solutions like what MassPay offers, where businesses can guarantee €5,000 gets delivered and they can send it the same day the invoice is due. Because we can get the money there instantly. So there's a shift in expectation both on the send side and the receive side. Some of the friction historically has been those legacy systems that have been using. But I think with the growing popularity of AI, you have more companies who are going to those tools to try to automate invoice processing and understanding how to reconcile them. And, and those solutions are an opportunity for the payments rails to also get integrated into. And we've seen a tremendous growth with those sort of solutions as well. So yeah, B2B, I think, is a bigger, is a bigger mountain or bigger pie that we've seen tremendous growth in. But yes, historically it has been those marketplaces, gig economy, insurance companies, essentially any business that cares, essentially, that payouts is an integral part of the product because it's either going to drive less churn or better adoption, potentially revenue generation. You have a lot of companies that are bifurcating the service between real-time and traditional. So in traditional, they say, okay, I'll offer you a free payout, you're going to get it in 3 days. But if you want it instantly, maybe you pay me like 2% or 3% or 5% or whatever it is. Right. And some of the money eat faster. So it's not a revenue generator for the business. So again, with the demand for real-time beneficiaries, it also presents us an opportunity for the businesses, the people who are sending the payouts, to differentiate and maybe negotiate better terms, etc. So it's an interesting time.

Yeah, it's definitely interesting, like moving money internationally. You know, it's funny, like I see— you see commercials on TV, oh, Visa and MasterCard, it's worldwide. But it's not really worldwide because you can't send a dollar, you know, to somebody in another country if there's a currency conversion and a whole bunch of fees and sending crypto or using MassPay to send money, you know, from the US to Europe, you can do it a lot faster than the SWIFT network, which I've heard can take, you know, like you said, 5 days, could be 10 days. You can, you know, you run into the weekend and things like that. So looking ahead, like into the future, where do you see like your company, like where's the growth in the next 3 to 5 years? Or longer than that, where— where— what's coming up for you guys? Where do you see like the growth to come from?

So we've seen in the last year and a half tremendous growth. I mean, we've just published Q1 results, close to 400% growth. So tremendous growth for the company. We process many billions of dollars a year. So already operating at a very significant scale, but we are just beginning. This is just the beginning of our company. As more companies learn that real-time payouts, um, supporting more ways for people to get paid becomes a competitive advantage for them. More of those companies are going to come our way. Um, what we've accomplished is very tough to do, um, to integrate all those global correspondents, to be able to make funds available in all those endpoints in real time. So we can get somebody sending money, let's say in the US, and send it to another country instantly. That's not trivial to do. Both from a treasury management but also from compliance. You need to be able to KYC and KYB all those entities and do it all in real time and transaction monitoring. So it's a big lift and companies don't want to deal with sending money all over the world and manage all those integrations. With Maspay, it's a single contract, single API, single funding mechanism, global distribution. And more companies are learning this is now it. It used to be nice to have, but when the competitor is offering it, now it's a must-have. And so we have seen tremendous growth everywhere. Every, every vertical that we serve, we see a lot of the competitors of our existing clients just coming and saying, we have to match the same level of service to stay relevant. But in general, B2B is definitely a growth area for us. We are boarding, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars a year in volume on the B2B side. And we're very excited about it because I think it's an industry that deserves better ways to move money. And with the development of technology and the abilities that companies like MassPay have, I think that this is really prime time for them to migrate from their legacy SWIFT wires into a more efficient, more trackable, guaranteed means of payment. I'm gonna give you a simple example. When you send a wire, If the wire again goes through, great. You still don't know how much you're gonna pay because you don't know how many hops are gonna be on the way, but at least you get an idea. Transaction bounces, you're still paying all those fees. Matter of fact, the fees are higher because the money has to travel back, um, through the same correspondence. With MassPay, we only charge for successful transactions. If we are unable to deliver the funds, we refund the fee and the transaction. So it, it completely different types of service. That I think a lot of businesses are going to be more keen to use because it's easier to reconcile. It's obviously more economic. So I think tremendous growth across the board, but definitely B2B is an area of focus for us.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of money because we do business with a lot of business, like business-to-business attorneys, accountants, even parts companies. I mean, we've seen credit cards, you know, go through for $300,000, $400,000, even one that was over $1 million one time. I'm guessing the company wanted to float the money, you know. And, uh, you know, of course, you know, we have to go, you know, call the customer. Hey, we need the invoice, we need to know who this customer is, blah blah blah blah blah. And I know Visa has some new product that, that does that for like large transactions. And I guess, you know, moving all this money around. And it's crazy because I think, you know, we're going to see businesses kind of figure out like how to pay their suppliers faster to get better prices. You know, I have a saying I tell merchants: don't be the bank. You know, let the customers use their credit card to get the 30 days they want instead of you giving them the 30 days.

Right. And again, you can negotiate better terms if you pay faster. By the way, you mentioned Visa. We, Maskpay, we are a direct enablement partner for Visa Direct where we can access all the Visa endpoints. So push to account, push to wallet, and push to card, and soon push to a stablecoin wallet. So I think there's a lot of really exciting things that Visa is working on as well on the cross-border side, obviously domestic, but also on the cross-border. And Maskpay is an integral part of that. And We're very excited about this partnership.

Yeah, that's one thing I would definitely like to see happen more with the payment companies in the US is to have like Stripe has like a global network of, you know, so businesses can transact with people all over the world. But a lot of ISOs don't have that ability. Most ISOs don't have that ability in the US to do those kind of transactions. And then also, you know, businesses that need payouts. You know, and they have to pay out all over the world, they need to, you know, they need to have a solution like MassPay just for— not for— not just for the ease of use, but also for compliance. Because I was listening to— I was in a conversation with an attorney, and they were like, their client was in trouble, facing a 20-year jail sentence.

Wow.

For, for moving money without a license.

Yeah. So there's a growing, number of companies, large payment companies that are working with MassPay and integrating MassPay into the offering because they wanna be relevant for marketplaces.

Right.

Because today many of them cannot serve marketplaces. Some of the big brands that, you know, cannot serve marketplaces because, they need to be licensed. Those, those marketplaces need to be licensed and they don't have a solution. There are a handful of PSPs that know how to serve marketplaces. You mentioned Stripe, they are one of them. They have a product called Stripe Connect, but other very large PSPs do not. And some of them are actively partnering with us, I mean, integrating us into the offering so they can offer the money in while MassPay with our banking sponsors can offer the custody and ultimately disbursement. So it's a really nice solution for marketplaces, and it really opens up the competitive landscape on the PSPs that have been excluded from participating in marketplaces that, again, since COVID have been blowing up. You have so many marketplaces out there. And it's interesting to see how that's going to also unlock potentially margins and more competitive landscape on the money inside with PSPs that are now entering the marketplace industry or vertical with the help of Maskpay.

So if people want to find— get in touch with Ron or get more information about your company, where do they go?

Obviously Maskpay.io. You can follow us on X, you can follow us on LinkedIn. We are active, we are always reaching out to the industry and trying to learn more about what people are looking and what people are working on, but obviously sharing some of the great news of the work that we have been doing in MassBay. We are probably at the— I mean, we are definitely at the forefront of payouts. We are probably one of the largest payouts companies out there, but we are just starting also on the innovation side. The amount of innovation, the amount of stuff that we ship and productize and partnerships that we are forging. Is amazing and we're really, really excited for everybody to, to see everything that we are working on and, and follow us. So yes, please go on social media and follow us and feel free to reach out to me and the team either through our website or through LinkedIn.

All right. Well, thank you for joining us on the podcast today, Ron. I hope everybody enjoyed the conversation and learned something because this is a really, you know, it's a, it's a really tough pill to swallow sometimes for businesses. Then they get all of a sudden their merchant processor or their bank comes to them and goes, hey, we see you doing this, you're not supposed to do that, and why are you doing that? So you have to really be careful. And when you're sending, you know, not just accepting payments but sending money out, that you're doing it in a compliant way. And get in touch with MASBay. And thank you for being on the podcast today. Again, B2B Vault. Follow us on your favorite podcast network, Apple, Spotify, YouTube., and we're on LinkedIn. And if you want more information about Ron, we're going to have all the links in the, uh, show notes. And, uh, thanks again for coming on the podcast. He said, uh, carpe diem.