The Future of Shopping with Agentic AI with Don Apgar | Biz To Biz Podcast

Welcome to the Biz to Biz Podcast, your number one source for all business news. Hey, hey, hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz Podcast, sponsored by NPS1, which is our new gateway platform. Everybody, if you want to check that out, visit nationwidepaymentsystems.com and book a demo. I'll gladly show you the new NPS1 gateway. Which is amazing. But we're not here to talk about that today. Today we have a very special guest on the show, someone that I have known for probably over a decade. Okay, Don Apgar with Javelin Strategy and Research. And I know Don— Don, how long have we known each other?

I was going to say, Allen, it's probably closer to two decades, but who's keeping count, right?

Well, we go back all the way, not to Comdata, but to PAI days, right?

Right, right. So that was— yeah, that was like a decade and a half, probably 2010-ish.

Yeah, so 2010, 15 years. Yeah, yeah, a long time. So, you know, me and Don met back in those days, and, you know, those were some fun times at the good old PAI, Payment Alliance. That's right. And, uh, you know, I have my podcast now. Don has been around all over in the business. Don is one of the most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to payments because he's been doing it for so long. I'm in the business 25 years. Don's probably in for at least that long, if not longer. And, uh, so I saw a post Don made on, uh, LinkedIn the other day about agenic commerce. And, you know, that's been a big talking point amongst everybody, the general public, you know, like where, you know, Google, you know, SEO, what's going on with that? Are people going into ChatGPT and other AIs and doing some shopping? So I thought it was a really interesting article. So tell us a little bit about like what you do over at Javelin.

Yeah, so first of all, thanks for having me on the podcast, Allen. It's always great to hang out with you and shoot the breeze about payments for a little bit. But so Javelin Strategy and Research, we're a financial services advisory and consulting firm. We provide thought leadership in the payments space as well as bespoke consulting for strategy and other projects in the financial services sector. I lead the merchant services and acquiring practice at Javelin. And so, you know, as you said, it's kind of the product of everything I've done in the business, being able to write about it and guide our clients, you know, both banks and merchants through the strategy part of payments. And you're right, Agenta Commerce has been plastered all over the news in the last couple of weeks. It's, um, you know, I think a lot of people struggle to even explain what it is.

So what's interesting is recently I needed to buy— I wanted to get some headphones, the ones that go over the ears, for a friend as a gift. And I was like looking up— I have the Apple AirPods, but you know, those are super expensive. So I was wondering, I said, you know, I'm searching around on the internet, I'm like, let's give this a shot. And then I saw you write about it, so I punched it in ChatGPT. Hey, looking for these type of headphones, what's the best deal, you know, and what has a great rating so that you can have quiet while you're on the airplane? Because nothing is worse than that for 2 hours, right, on the airplane.

I hate that.

Huh?

I said I hate that.

Yeah, so I got those headphones a couple years ago, and man, let me tell you, you're on a long flight like here to Vegas, you know, I went to Vegas a couple months ago, and, uh, you know, it was like a lifesaver. It was a game changer, you know, having those headphones. And, um, so I wanted to get some for my friend, so I searched, and then it came up with a few choices, you know, and they even have the links there and everything. And I recently interviewed someone on my podcast, it's going to come out soon, about SEO and what's going on with SEO, you know, and is there really such a thing as AIO, artificial intelligence optimization? I'm not really sure that there is, but for, for sure, one thing is, is, you know, ChatGPT can search the internet, especially if you have the paid version for $20. It can search and tell you whatever you want it to know. It's pretty crazy.

You know what's interesting is agentic commerce has technically been around for a while. You know, if you look at what Amazon has done with Alexa, right? So you can say into your smart device, Alexa, order more paper towels, right? And so that's your virtual assistant who then goes back and looks up what kind of paper towels you use, adds them to your cart, and, you know, will ship them at your direction, right? So So that's an example of agentic commerce, except that it's Amazon specific. Right? Right. So true agentic commerce is what, which is what's been in the news and what you're talking about is being able to use an independent AI platform like a ChatGPT or Perplexity, for example, to say, go search the internet for paper towels. Right? Right. Find the best price on the ones that tear into half sheet. I need at least 8 rolls. And they have to be here by Tuesday, right? So you can, you can tell the AI engine that and it will come back and say, okay, Don, well, here are your, here are your options. Or, you know, in TruAgent eCommerce, you give it those directions and it doesn't come back and ask for your approval. It just places the order.

Yeah, that's kind of crazy. I know, like, I unplugged my Alexa thing I had in my house because it was super annoying. It's like, it's time to order more dog treats for Rocky. Of course, Rocky, Rocky probably liked that, but it's kind of annoying when you get that. You're like, oh, it's time to order. Like, I don't want that to talk to me all the time. Plus it would pick stuff up from the TV and then start.

Oh yeah, we had to move ours. I had it too close to the soundbar and every once in a while you'd be watching TV and it would say, pardon, pardon. Right.

It starts. Yeah. Or it starts looking up a product. Like from a commercial, you know? So yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's, you know, the other thing we keep hearing about is social shopping, right? So one of the things we've done with our platform is, is we give the merchant a way to like create a, take a product and without a shopping cart, sell that product and put it on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram. And basically it's, you know, with a buy now button on it. And you don't even need to have a shopping cart or build out an entire e-commerce website, you know, and that can be, that's going to be a real game changer. We already have, we've been testing it for about a year now. We have quite a few merchants using it from nonprofits, you know, small retail stores. And it's a great way for them to make additional sales. Off the internet without investing in an expensive e-commerce website.

Yeah, and actually we published some research on that a couple years ago. We were calling it social commerce, and I would say that social commerce a few years ago is probably where agentic commerce is now, right? I think we're a few years away from realizing any real benefits out of agentic commerce, but you're absolutely right. TikTok was the one that really lit a fire under social commerce. Facebook actually is working to catch up to where TikTok is. But you're so right about the cart. It's not a website where you go shop. It's a product, right? A product that you see being used. You see used in different scenarios by different kinds of people, right? It's the whole influencer network, right? And you go, It gives you the opportunity as you're seeing the product in use to actually buy that product. And it's not a, it's not a, hey, what else do I want to shop? What else is on sale? It's, you know, to your point, why you don't need a shopping cart, because you're going to buy just that product, right? The one that's being featured in the, uh, in the video. And it's extremely effective because it's, uh, it's impulse. It's, it's, uh, hey, I want this thing, this is really cool, let me buy it. So you're not, you're not comparison shopping. You're not price shopping. You're not, you know, you're not saying, well, let me think about it. It's, uh, it's, it's a highly effective means of merchandising.

Definitely impulse buying. It's like you're at the grocery store, you're in the checkout line. Oh, am I going to get this magazine? And by the way, magazines have gotten super expensive. You know, gum, candy, right? And now with all these things, agentic commerce, TikTok, you know, there's just more places for people to shop. And, um, you know, the other thing is what's really cool with, um, with AI, when I was talking to this person about SEO, they were telling me that their clients are getting a little frustrated because traffic on Google is down.

Yeah.

And people are starting to use all these other you know, there's not just OpenAI, ChatGPT, Perplexity. You have Gemini, then you got Copilot from Microsoft. And, you know, people are just testing these out and gravitating all. And there's other smaller ones that are out there too. But I mean, what do you, what do you do with AI? Like, what's your go-to AI product?

Well, it's, you know, it's really interesting because, you know, in the payments ecosystem, you and I are always focused on the merchant side, the acceptance side. And when you look at what AI, how this is taking shape, it's got the potential to get really, really interesting. You know, if you go back 20 years or so to the beginning of, you know, when e-commerce took off, beginning of the 21st century, way back then, right? And affiliate fees were the norm. And affiliate fees, for those who want to know, is that if I go to to, uh, to site A and it's displaying a logo for site B, you know, they get a referral fee. So if I go to a, um, uh, let's say a sports team website and I want to click on, you know, and I look at a jersey and it says buy it here on Amazon, when I go to Amazon from that link, right, Amazon's paying a 10%, it's called affiliate fee, for referring me as, as a customer. So now when you look at these shopping bots, right, You know, is the— does the potential exist for shopping bots to collect affiliate fees? Right.

Wow, that's interesting.

Right. And so also, you know, when you— from a merchant perspective, you know, shopping bots or commerce agents, whatever you want to call them, you know, don't need to view a website with pictures and long descriptions and videos like humans do. Right, right. You know, you almost need as a merchant to generate an AI-friendly website Right? And whether you want to call it— in my LinkedIn post, I compared it to a ghost kitchen for a restaurant. You have a dark site that is the same as your regular sites, got the same product information, but it's just got it formatted differently so it's AI readable as opposed to, you know, the human-facing kind of shiny content that we're used to on the web. But it really begs the question, when you go to a platform like a Perplexity or any of the ones that you mentioned and said, they go out and shop the web for, for headphones, you know, who is, who is the AI shopping agent serving, right? I mean, they're getting you the best price, but if, if two stores at the same price and, and one is paying an affiliate fee, right, right. So, so you have to think about the revenue model right now. If I'm a merchant, right, is it important for me to know whether that purchase is being made by Allen Kopelman or Allen Kopelman's copilot, Agentic Commerce shopping agent. And there is a difference because, you know, if an agent buys something that you told it to buy without you actually seeing, right, what the agent selected, right, does that create more returns? Does that create more chargebacks?

Right. I guess the future will—

if you ask for a set of Bose noise-canceling headphones And based on everything your, your AI profile knows about you, the shopping agent finds, let's say, JBL noise or Klipsch or some other brand and decides that it will, even though it's not the brand you specified, will suit your needs just as well. Oh, and by the way, the shopping agent gets 10% affiliate fee on the back end if they pick this other brand, right? And so You know, there's a lot of— a lot that needs to get sorted out in the whole business model, you know, once you get past the technology.

Yeah, well, one thing is, is if that's really true, OpenAI is going to be worth a lot of money because they're going to be making a lot of commission. All these shopping agents are going to be making a ton of commission, you know, off of these— off of these sales, you know. But I think like when it comes to AI, your website, right, I think you have to have like detailed description, maybe even describing the color, right? The comfort you need to have. Like, even on my website, one of the things we've done is, is we added to every blog frequently asked questions and answers. And that— those probably already help, you know, get, get into the AI network, because if somebody asks one of those questions, it's going to find the answer on my website.

Right. And then so if you're, if you're looking for, let's say the headphones come in 3 colors, right, the website that you and I would look at would show 3 sets of headphones in each of the 3 different colors. From an AI agent, you know, doesn't need to see pictures. You just need to have a database, an old— you have to have a description database, you know.

Yeah. So yeah, you almost have to have like a full description. Oh, these headphones come in blue, light blue, red, and green.

Right.

Or Hunter Green, very specifically, you know, like some of the companies I talk to about, you know, like fraud, like, oh, what are you guys doing for fraud? Like, we work with one chargeback company and now they have this like fraud tool merchants can link up to their website and link and it will tell— it will score like a transaction through. As it works with the gateway and it'll say, you know, oh yeah, you got AVS, you got your CVV2, you got a match. And then it can check against its negative database that probably shouldn't be— who knows if that's allowed to exist. Is this person like a good person? Is that address, the IP address, the email address associated with any type of chargeback history?

Right.

And gives those, you know, could give a score. Oh, this one only gets 50%. Then what are you going to do? You're going to void that out or you're going to roll the dice, right? And I think we're going to see a lot more of that from AI, from gateways, from credit card processors, things like that. One thing that I see that's been super helpful, a point of sale company that we work with, made an AI that answers all the questions out of their frequently asked question database, which is like 700 pages, right? So now merchants, let's say they forgot how to add an employee or you have a new manager. So instead of calling the point of sale company up on the phone, they can just type into the AI, how do I add a new employee? And it lists out all the steps.

Yeah, that's, yeah, at a very high level, that's what AI is really designed to do, is sift through large, large amounts of data that would take humans, you know, an inordinately long amount of time and to find what you're looking for and identify patterns. So, you know, to your point, 700 pages of FAQs, you know, can be frustrating. Even a table of contents would be a couple pages to try to find what you were looking for, or an index. Right? But to be able to just type in, you know, an English language or a natural language question, right, and have it immediately take you right to that, that right point— I mean, there's a ton of value there.

Oh yeah, it tells the client everything. How do I void a transaction?

Boom.

How do I do this?

Boom.

Or if it doesn't know, says call the help desk. You know, maybe you asked a difficult question or it's not fully explained in the thing, and then the person doesn't have to go look up the number. The number's right there. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. If they're doing it on their phone, they just hit the button and make a phone call. So I think AI is gonna— huh?

Yeah, go ahead.

No, I think AI is going to be super helpful in those scenarios like that.

Oh yeah, I mean, some of the enterprise merchants and PSPs that do payment orchestration are using AI for, for routing, right? Because it's easy to say transaction routing, you know, lowest cost, highest auth rate, fastest response time, right? But you can go back now and sift through millions and millions of transaction records and look for, well, what time of day? Are there variations in response time based on time of day? Variations in auth rate based on dollar amount, based on BIN, based on, you know, so many more variables than an old-fashioned, if you will, rules-based system could look at, right? So now you're really able to really put a fine point on your orchestration and your transaction routing strategy. You know, it even applies in acquiring, right? For underwriting, right? You've got to board a new merchant. You know, it's— I don't think it's AI is being fully used to decision merchants, but just to gather all the compliance stuff., right? All to do— go out and do your web check, do your OFAC, do all your compliance stuff. Just saves a ton of man hours.

Oh yeah, we're using a— one of the processors we work with that definitely has AI. And you'll notice in some, even some of the databases, when you're putting in an app for a merchant, it'll— you'll start the address, it'll start coming up with addresses because it's looking to make sure that that's a legit address. They can tell you, oh, is that a legit federal tax ID number while you're putting the app in? Is that a legitimate Social? The bank account sometimes doesn't find the bank account. It doesn't look like a real bank account and things like that, which can save sales reps a ton of time. And even on the inside, when we are putting apps through the AI engine that they use, now populates like everything the underwriter needs to look at. So they're not typing in Google looking for the business. Everything's pulled up— the website, the Facebook, all the social, the Google Maps, the pictures of the business. Like everything's getting pulled up for the underwriter and the underwriter can make a quick decision.

You know, one of the— when we were doing a— doing our research in AI and acquiring in the merchant-facing stuff, I came across a kind of an anecdotal thing from CIO Magazine talking about the 10 biggest AI fails. Okay. And there was the example of McDonald's deployed AI in their drive-through. Yeah. And this person came to the drive-through and ordered chicken nuggets and it put 2 in her cart and she kept trying to get chicken nuggets removed from her cart. And she was finally up to 267 orders of chicken nuggets before the manager pulled the plug on it. And they've since discontinued that.

Wow.

There's another example, um, so Air Canada, right? So, um, this guy has a death in the family and wants to see about bereavement travel rules because the airlines usually give you discounted fares and stuff for bereavement travel. It goes on a website Hits the chatbot, gets an answer on his bereavement travel, says it's refundable up to a certain point, buys the ticket, and for whatever reason has to make a change or get a refund. And he calls Air Canada and they say, I'm sorry, that's not our policy. You're outside the time frame. He said, well, I went on a website and the chatbot told me this. And they said, well, we can't help you. So the guy winds up taking Air Canada to court. And to get his money back. And believe it or not, the airline's defense to the judge was, we can't be held responsible for the information that our chatbot gives to our customers, because the chatbot— he asked for the policy and the chatbot gave him the wrong information, right? And so now the airline's trying to say, well, we're not responsible for the chatbot, it's AI. And it's like, that's kind of disingenuous. I mean, it's on your site, you have to own it, you know.

Oh, you definitely got to own that.

So I mean, another real-life example, there was a LinkedIn post, and this is very anecdotal, but LinkedIn post I happen to see about 2 weeks ago, um, where Stripe apparently is using AI to do risk review, right? So you do risk review of your merchant portfolio. And so this guy operates some kind of a, like, a local ferry boat or a fishing chart, or, you know, some basic kind of a business. And had a merchant account with Stripe. And the AI risk review said, oh, this guy's— this guy owns a boat, put him in the same category as cruise lines, which are restricted, restricted MCC at Stripe. And they, they shut off his merchant account, sent him an email, shut off his merchant account, held his money. And there is no, like, human backup or appeal. Nobody called. Took him like 3 months to get his money back. So that's crazy, you know. And that's one of the things that, that we, we put forth in our recommendations and our research is, you know, AI has a tremendous amount of efficiency, but it's also— I'm sure you read about what they call hallucinations, where it's finding information that's not there. And so, you know, our advice is, you know, don't put AI in a critical path, the critical decision path without backup until you're 100% sure that, you know, A, it's going to make the right decisions or provide the right information, and B, you're prepared to live with the mistakes. You know, if you're right, you've got enough merchants where, you know, if you're okay, it incorrectly terminates one, then that's a business decision, right? Yeah. You know, with the case of Air Canada, you know, if, if the, if you're okay with the, with the, the AI-driven chatbot giving out wrong information, X% of the time, then that's a business decision, right? You're offsetting the cost of having somebody answer the phone with paying for giving out wrong information, right? So it's very much a kind of feel your way around in the dark with AI right now. There's so much potential, but our advice is go slowly, go slowly, make sure that you're make sure it's doing what it's supposed to do, and, and make sure you're managing your downside risk.

Yeah, well, you know, anytime there's new technology, it's crawl, walk, run, you know. And I think we're still— even though AI is like this moving really quickly, I still think we're like at the crawl stage when it comes to that. I can tell you one thing, we use, um, an AI SEO tool, and it's improved our SEO score on our website tremendously. Because it will go and tell you like, oh, you have this mistake, that mistake, little weird stuff like, oh, you don't have this, this F1 header on the page and, you know, the font is too small. It'll tell you all kinds of crazy stuff and that you might not even realize is wrong with the site. You know, you might have a well-put-together site, but then you have these little miscues everywhere. So it's, it's pretty interesting, the things that— one of the things AI— I'll tell you one thing I use for AI. Somebody— I was renewing my lease on my office. So the first version, I was like, man, I'm not going to sit here and read this thing. It's like 35 pages. So I stuck it in there and I said, oh, I need, uh, AI to be a lawyer. Look at this lease, uh, tell me any liabilities. So first thing it it came up with like 5 things and I was like, oh, that's no good. I don't want to have— I didn't have a personal guarantee currently, so I'm not signing that. And then there was a couple of other little things in there that, um, I wanted corrected. So I sent it back. I said, oh, now write me an email to send them back. And it did. And then I sent it back to them and then they sent me another copy of the lease. It was about 4 leases in and I said, well, was everything removed from the last lease? Is it ready to be signed? And the AI said yes, all the things you asked them to change were changed.

Fantastic.

So I mean, that saves you time from reading 35 pages of, of a lease, you know, even any kind of agreement. I've put various different things. It won't read everything, I'll tell you that right now. Will not read like lots of If you put in like some small, like a marketing flyer, it might take it a while to read it all, but it can definitely do a lot and save you a lot of time. You can say, oh, give me a summary. I've given it web pages, like where there's like a really long article, and I said, oh, give me a summary on this article, and it'll pop you out a summary.

Yeah, well, I think you're 100% right on the crawl, walk, run, but you know, in today's today's fast news cycle and media content engine, you know, sometimes we forget that there's so much buzz that we're still in the crawl stage. Right.

And, you know, definitely like transaction routing. You know, I recently came across like a company I never heard of and they were doing some kind of really crazy transaction routing for merchants. It's like a transaction routing engine and they don't even sell merchant accounts. So I was like, wow, that's interesting. Like you can, it'll help you route your transactions. Let's say you have 5 merchant accounts. It'll just help you decide where to send all this traffic. It was really interesting. You know, I think that AI has a ways to go, but I can tell you one thing. I think people are starting to shift from searching Google or searching whatever they're searching on to search on these AI platforms. And it's only a matter of time before, I don't know, Google might have to make some kind of adjustment to how they're doing business. You know, oh, are we going to sell ads or are we going to sell this AI agent thing, right, to recommend, oh, what is the best merchant services company? And whoever's paying them the best commission is getting named in the list. You know, who knows how that's all going to work out in the end?

Well, you know, it's funny. I read an article, gosh, about 2 years ago now that said, you know, how much longer will Google and Amazon be in business? And your first reaction is, well, gosh, they're not going to go out of business. They're huge. But if you think back to AOL and to Yahoo, You know, yes, they're still around, but they're a fraction of the space that they used to consume on the internet landscape, you know? So there's a lot to come. You know, I don't know if Google's gonna go out of business or whether they'll pivot or what they'll do, but certainly there's competition.

So do you think, so like one of the things I always wonder about when we talk about like AI being used for fraud, It's all— it always amazes me because the, the card issuers don't seem to care about fraud, and that's always been like a crux for people in the, in our end of the merchant acquiring business. How come you think they don't use any— they're— that they're not being held to the standards that merchants are held to?

I think we're seeing it, we're seeing more of that, you know, and that's why you see like Visa bought Verify, Mastercard bought Ethoka or Ethica, right? And so they're trying to bring some of those capabilities into the ecosystem and make them available to issuers and to acquirers so that, you know, some of the smaller guys don't have to go out and build this infrastructure. They can take advantage of it through through the card brands. But, you know, it's very much like the old, you know, the radar gun and the radar detector, right? It's, you know, AI is going to do a lot to help fraud detection, but it's also doing a lot to enable fraud, unfortunately. So it's an arms race.

I can tell you that for sure, because we get fake applications all the time. And some of the driver's licenses and have gotten really good. What they haven't figured out yet is— oops, I'm gonna sneeze— is voided checks and bank statements and merchant statements. And because one thing that I found out after I was in this business for a really long time is that every bank, every credit card machine, every merchant service company, ATM machines when they print, they all have— they all use some kind of special font that cannot be cloned. Even ChatGPT cannot clone those fonts. Even on the driver's license, they cannot clone the fonts because the fonts are like size— like, let's say it's 10. Instead of 10, it's like 9.7543, right?

Yeah.

So that it cannot be duplicated by, you know, because I'll get a check and I'll be like, come on, man, like the name is typed on there with like a regular typewriter.

It's not real, you know.

And the merchant statements have type on it that does not work, you know, jive to the rest of the font, right? And, um, so I definitely applaud ChatGPT and I don't know who else, you know, that they're like allowing people to like clone that kind of stuff, you know, to clone driver's licenses, to clone checks and things like that, you know. And even in merchant accounts, anybody that's doing any kind of AI platform, they're restricted from using celebrity pictures and voices and things like that. So it's pretty crazy. So give us some final words, Don Apgar's final words on AI today. And energetic commerce. And it's all of a sudden everybody gonna get a .ai website or put AI dot your name. I think that's also going to become pretty big soon.

Yeah, well, I think that the— in a nutshell, everybody should be working with AI. Everybody should be exploring how AI can help their business, either customer-facing on the front end or operationally on the back end. But You know, to your point, it's crawl, walk, run, right? Remember that we're in the early phases here, and before you trust the technology on mission-critical stuff, make sure, make sure that it's, uh, it's going to carry out your business process the way you want it to.

Yeah, we don't want to have Skynet like the Terminator takeover, right?

Right.

That's what I always think of. That's the AI nightmare, right?

Yeah, for sure.

The computer starts thinking for itself and starts, you know, depositing people's money where it's not supposed to go or something crazy.

You go all the way back to, um, uh, 2001: A Space Odyssey, all the way back to the '70s, right? When the computer says, I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that, right?

Yeah, I can't do that, Dave. Yeah, that's like crazy when you think about it like that. I guess that Maybe that or Star Trek was like one of the first things with like AI and computers, right?

Right.

It's got to be one of those, right? We'd have to go look back at Star Trek episode with AI. Yeah, they had computer meltdowns on Star Trek during the William Shatner days. All right, so there we are. We're, you know, we're, you know, maybe you should experiment type in the ChatGPT something you're trying to buy, see how that's going to work out. Or maybe more companies like Walmart, Target are going to start launching AI agents to help you buy more stuff, right? It's gonna have— you know, it's probably in the works somewhere along the way, right? What do you think, Don?

Absolutely. This has been great. Always Always great to hang with you and talk, talk payments and AI, Allen.

All right. Well, it's always fun to have an old friend on the podcast, and I appreciate Don coming on from Javelin Strategy and Research. We thank them for allowing Don to come on the podcast. Everybody, I hope you enjoyed. And, you know, whether you're in the payments business or you're a merchant, this is definitely something people need to look at. Social selling, ageogenic selling. SEO versus AIO and all this other good stuff. Here we are, we're on the precipice, the launchpad of, of techno— AI technology, and it's coming right at us. So thank you for coming on the podcast today. B2B Vault, the biz to biz podcast. We're on Spotify, Apple, anywhere else you listen to podcasts, YouTube. You can find us also on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. You can find me on LinkedIn if you want to get in touch, or go to nationwidepaymentsystems.com. You can find Don on LinkedIn. We'll post his LinkedIn profile link if you want to get in touch with him, or check out Javelin Strategy and Research, and you can get some reports from them on how this is all going to look, because this is all— it's all moving very quickly. So thanks for listening to B2B Vault. Peace out. And carpe diem, everybody. Have a great day.