Why Kyle Hatfield Thinks the Payment Industry Is Broken | Biz To Biz Podcast

You're now watching B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz podcast hosted by Allen Kopelman, powered by Nationwide Payment Systems, the number one solution for payment processing. Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz podcast sponsored by Nationwide Payment Systems and our new gateway NPS1, the alternative to Stripe. We have an open API, smart invoicing, payment links, everything you need to run your business. And today we have a great guest on the show, Kyle Hatfield, and we're here to discuss something that I wrote an article about in the Green Sheet, and Kyle commented on my article on LinkedIn and we connected. And so today we're joined by Kyle Hatfield from Senseless, and what we're going to be talking about is what, you know, the penny has been canceled. They're not going to produce any more pennies. And the problem's got to be solved as to, you know, the rules and regulations of how businesses are going to handle this. And I think point-of-sale companies and fintech companies and even terminal manufacturers— because even if you're using like a little terminal like this and you're doing the dual pricing, it pops up on here and it says, you know, the credit price and the cash price. And then if there's pennies, the, you know, and this person says, oh, I'm going to pay cash, which could happen even though there's not a lot of cash in many businesses. Everybody needs to know the correct way to make change. So Kyle, introduce yourself to the audience.

Hi everyone, my name is Kyle Hatfield and I'm the CEO and co-founder of Senseless, and that's C-N-T-S LESS, and that stands for Comprehensive Equitable National Transaction Standard. And just like Allen was saying, is that back in November, the penny is no longer being minted. And we, myself, my co-founders, we worked on researching what is being— solving the problem and learned that no one is actually working on solving that problem. And that's where we've come up with that solution and love to talk about the small coin that's making a ripple effect in all industries.

Yeah, so like a little background is, you know, we were talking before we jumped on the podcast, it's already happened in Australia and Canada. I was reading about the thing, how they do it in Canada, and I was like, that sounds a little confusing. So I was like, oh, it's to the nearest nickel, and then if it's up here, it goes, it rounds down. And if it's over here, it rounds up. And I mean, I think in the United States it's going to be like, you're going to see like viral TikToks when somebody gets shortchanged.

Yes, absolutely. And, and you're right about how, uh, yes, other countries have definitely been able to accomplish this, uh, smoothly and effectively when they're able to, uh, pair both the execution and the policy side at the same time. Uh, whereas here in the US, uh, policy came first with the ending of the penny And now the market, the execution is trying to catch up with finding the way to implement it effectively, that it's fair for both businesses and consumers. And it's a growing problem. It's a growing friction. And yes, you're probably going to be seeing some of those video clips. I think there was one at Home Depot recently. Customers are upset about rounding in the favor of the business. Right. So Again, even just 1-2 cents can still make a customer upset, and the frontline workers don't have, you know, the training, or should they have to handle this on their own as a problem they didn't create, essentially.

Right. And what you were explaining to me was, is basically the Secretary of the Treasury canceled, you know, shut down the minting of the penny, which makes sense. And then that— and now the rules haven't been written yet.

Yes, so you're referring to the Common Sense Act. So back in last year, it was supposed to be hopefully passed, but because of it taking so long through the committee process, Secretary Treasurer went and used his powers to cancel the penny. The Common Sense Act is still being worked on, and from the conversations we've had with the congressional staff, the Common Sense will just provide the permissive language that gives the safe harbor of how to round, but not the the actual implementation or execution so that it is fair. So it's going to provide the regulatory exposure to the businesses, but it's not going to provide the litigation risk exposure from consumers that may want to challenge their rounding practices and maybe claim that they're, they're biased or in favor of the business. So if you can't prove it as a business owner how you're effectively rounding, then you're in the crosshairs of litigation.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, if Home Depot was taking a penny from every single person that walked in there, I'm sure if you added it up for a year, that could be a lot of pennies. Somebody, you know, a large, you know, store, someone with thousands of stores, right?

Yes.

Walmart, Publix, Winn-Dixie, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Sorry, jump in. There's a company out Midwest, a treasurer I spoke to. Allen Kopelman, he mentioned that because of them playing safe harbor with the rounding down for every transaction, they would be looking at a nearly $4 million annual loss. So now that loss is going to have to pass on to someone, likely the consumer. So until legislation comes through from the federal level, as many states are already implementing their legislation efforts as well while waiting on the federal level, businesses are scrambling and playing it safe, losing money. And right now they're in a lose-lose, uh, situation.

Yeah, $4 million, that's— someone's— they're gonna have to raise prices just to make that work. So have you talked to any, like, payment companies, like, or point-of-sale companies about what are they going to do in their software? Because, you know, when you're using a software product, the, you know, usually You know, you punch in all the items and, you know, it's never going to be even because there's sales tax or other taxes or local taxes, right, gets added on. And then you're going to have this number like whatever, $57.83, right? And then, you know, somebody's paying cash, usually they have to enter in like, oh, the person handed me $100. And then it's got— the machine's got to tell them how much change because I can imagine. I'm not just talking about the ripple effect of what's going on while you're standing there. I'm talking about the ripple effect of how's that going to look in their reporting? How are they going to account for the loss in their point-of-sale system? Then how does that flow down to like their accounting software, like QuickBooks? Like, what are they doing about it, right?

Yeah.

How's that going to happen? And then if there is a loss, are they going to be able to write it off on their taxes? Like, who knows? I mean, I don't, you know, it's, it's a, it's like a whole flow, right? And it's, and it's starting at the point of sale and going backwards.

Right. Yes.

And talk to any point of sale companies to see what they're saying.

So we've certainly reached out in terms of trying to, again, build a collaboration and partnership to solve this problem together. But from our research scrubbing the net, we can see that these POS vendors, merchant providers, they are advertising that they have the rounding logic toggle button that they can— the company can just turn on. But that takes care of that. It's a feature that makes a pathway easy, but it's not the actual infrastructure to provide the compliance trail that's needed. So that's what's going to be missing on these toggle ad hoc features on these vendors. Is simply just providing the routing logic to the business owner, but it's not— the POS system vendor is likely not going to invest in the resources and time to build out a full compliance trail for their customers. So ultimately they're going to want to hopefully find a provider that can solve that for them. So yeah, so it's a lot of uncertainty right now and these ad hoc advertising solutions are just simple, pain-free, but it, it's going to still lead to long-term problems if there's not a compliance layer behind it.

Yeah, because I would imagine that could also like throw off things like sales tax calculations.

Yes, absolutely.

Like if you're rounding up all of a sudden, oh, you didn't collect the right amount of sales tax, right?

Absolutely. And that's something back to your other question about if a business maybe experiences a net positive or net negative over a year of rounding, maybe is there any sort of tax, you know, write-offs or credits, things of that sort? But of course, that's going to take legislation to provide that maybe additional buy-in, if you will, by providing that sort of offset for businesses, especially large businesses that might experiencing such a net negative. They need to be able to offset that through tax purposes. So yeah, that's something that we did approach as well in terms of policy talk. But again, after talking with congressional staff, where they stop is policy, and they're hoping the market will just figure it out on their own at that point.

That's a little weird. I always find that like when I'm listening to congressional hearings involving things like ATM business, credit card processing, and I see them questioning the, you know, the, the row of people they have there. I'm like, do you— it shows me the lack of understanding that the Congress has about how businesses run. I mean, it's just ridiculous. Like, once I was watching the hearings about Visa and MasterCard, and they're asking Visa Oh, do you know how much debt there is on Visa cards? And they're like, we're not involved in that, you need to talk to the banks. And then they're talking to them about interchange and they're like, we don't set the interchange, talk to the banks. And then they get an expert on there and the expert's explaining to them. I hope they bring in you guys so you can explain to them like, hey, people can have this loss and people, or somebody can have a net gain and then how's that all going to be handled and how's that all going to reflect things like, you You know, are we going to see where the federal level, they don't make a rule, and then all of a sudden 50 states come out with 50 different rules?

Yes, and that's actually what's happening right now is we have, we've accounted for nearly 30+ states and nearly 40 bills have been introduced. So they've been introduced, they're passing through chambers. All states that have introduced legislation for the most part are about the same on the rounding logic. Asymmetry, but where they differ is right after that. So some are, some are making a requirement rounding, some are conditional, some have criminal offenses tied into it as well, some require rounding down only, some are rounding before tax, some are rounding after tax. It's falling apart. And, and on our website we do have a live legislation tracker that we update weekly so that you're hopefully getting a— being aware of what's happening in your own state as a business owner or as a consumer, what's happening. Because again, as a consumer, you're going to experience maybe buying a Big Mac in one town, $10.05, and then the next town over it's $9.95 because there's different jurisdictions, different rounding that's being applied. And with 50 states, 13,000 jurisdictions, the fragmentation possibilities are endless.

Yeah, we can't— I don't think that that's doable. I think the federal government needs to step in and make one solid rule, because otherwise it's going to be just a hot mess and providers won't be able to figure it out. And there's going to be, you know, more problems than good and a lot of TikTok videos. And we will post the link to the Senseless website. So that everybody can go look at all these things. Yeah, it's very interesting because it's, you know, also like you said, it could end up with a bunch of law, you know, people filing frivolous lawsuits or class action lawsuits against companies. And that's just crazy to have like so many local, local rules. So like, so are you like, are you working with any like point-of-sale companies on trying to figure out like their how they're going to do the log— the logic. It's just like in Illinois now, they passed this rule where they don't want interchange to be charged on, uh, tips and taxes. I'm like, good luck with that. And then in there, because they know that nobody's ready to turn that on or figure it out, businesses are going to have to send in a paper report. Yeah, good luck with that. They'll never get people are never going to get paid this money. It's going to be like, they're going to go, well, you didn't file the report on time, and you know, and all— see, yes, the same thing with this penny thing. You can't— I mean, how could you do that if counties passed a law and you were in like Dade County in Miami, then you drive over to Fort Lauderdale and they have a different rule, and it's the same business, and in all these places they're not going to be able to do it. This Just like some states allow for what they call bundled pricing. So even a lot of bars do it even though they're not supposed to. Bars and restaurants will do like the price includes sales tax.

Right.

And that's going to get super confusing with all this rounding.

Right. And then again, how do you make sure it's transparent about those practices when you're showing a customer a whole number? They again may want to challenge again the integrity of what's happening behind the scenes. And what we've— we haven't, again, haven't been able to partner directly with a point-of-sale vendor just yet, but our logic or our engine, as I refer to it as, is that it's implemented after sales tax has been calculated, the subtotal, and that's when our engine would activate depending on the type of currency transaction, whether it's cash coming in cash going out or refunds, all that would transpire after that total and that sales tax. And then on the receipt, the consumer would see again that kind of previous total and then the cash rounding total. So they have a clear visual understanding of what happened in that transaction.

And then another nightmare could happen. Somebody puts in a $10.01 tip, right?

Yes.

That throws the whole formula into a tizzy. Right.

And then, yeah, and speaking of tips, something that we learned recently too is that with restaurants paying cash out tips to their employees, they won't have the ability to pay pennies. So that got us back into revamping and adding on to our product the back end of the house so that restaurants can pay their employees out cash closest to the rounding nickel, which in this case it always rounds down. To help protect any wage theft accusations at the same time.

Yeah, that's going to be a lot. If any point-of-sale companies are listening to this podcast, you guys need to reach out to Kyle right away because this is going to be a big— this is going to be a hot topic by businesses.

Yes, especially. Yeah, especially by— I would say as far as by the holiday season, this is where businesses I think are going to want to have the problem solved before the holiday season because they don't want to have additional friction going into another holiday season and having to, again, the frontline workers navigate through that as well. So I imagine this is going to definitely ramp up by summer into the third quarter where they want, you know, a real solution on the table before holiday season.

So one of the things you wrote, you said Senseless was intentionally built as a boring fintech solution. What does it mean in a world where fintechs are trying to disrupt? And now we have this crazy thing with this penny and everybody's just looking at it going, well, what are we going to do? And nobody's got— I mean, you guys have dived into this thing pretty deep.

Yes, yes, exactly right. Yes. So fintech, large in part, usually is, are companies that like to disrupt, whether it's changing some new payment feature something financially, they're just trying to one-up another company, for example. This solution rather just needs, again, a very simple compliant approach. It's not meant to disrupt, it's not about business and consumer, and it's just to be a simple solution that it's going to be an easy transition for everybody, as smooth as possible. So that's where and why we mean by a boring solution, very similar to Avalara, which is a tax compliance POS company. Again, another boring compliant, you know, sort of category, but very essential in everyday lives.

Oh yeah. A lot of clients like to have internet companies, and if you have a presence in a state, you have to pay sales tax in those states.

States.

It's like when you go on Amazon and you buy something, depending on where it's warehoused is whether or not you get sales tax put on it. So if I'm in Florida, I buy something, it's in some warehouse here, they— I pay sales tax. They don't— because they don't always charge sales tax on every item. So it's quite interesting how that's calculated. I'm sure whoever, uh, has to audit Amazon's sales tax state by state. That's probably some kind of nightmare where there's people sitting around, uh, sweating in a warehouse somewhere looking at, looking at some endless spreadsheets that's 3 feet high off the floor, right?

And the books aren't balancing. And that's where, and, and that's where having a, a neutral, uh, solution, uh, that we've built that is hopefully going to accomplish that. So by over Over time, the rounding logic should be neutral, and, you know, as far as up and down delta variance goes. And then, and then it just provides the accounting team, audit team, all the transparency fields. So for example, our, our audit compliance trail comprises up to nearly 75 data points that is actually tracked, whether through cash in, cash out, refunds, void overrides. So there's a lot of layers to the penny problem. I think that's only people see the surface of and really there's a lot happening behind the scenes.

So from like a business owner today, like there's probably not much they can do to prepare for this other than—

yeah, they're sort of forced to just kind of wait it out or, you know, what they can certainly do to try to help navigate sooner They, you know, they can reach out to their POS vendor, see if they offer again the toggle feature for rounding and what, what options. Some are offering just truncated where it's just always rounding down. Some are offering symmetry, symmetry, rounding logic. So as a business owner, you first want to see if that's available to you, and then the follow-up would be, okay, you're offering that, but what is, what's the trail behind it? Are you providing timestamps, jurisdiction stamps, you know, all these details so that if I am sued, I have a paper trail that I can show that we're doing this fairly for the consumer. And if the POS vendor says no, well, then you got a clear answer that you need to start working on finding safe harbor or a better solution for that. So those are the kind of the two big things that businesses can do now And then third is just to really kind of start educating customers what's coming ahead so that that friction can be as less as possible.

Yeah, some signage, whatever your policy is going to be, either that or start going around collecting pennies.

Yeah, that's right. With over $100 billion still in circulation, most of them are sitting in jars and wishing well. And so That's where businesses are turning off the valve of accepting pennies for cash, for payment, because if they can't logistically manage it and give it out consistently, why bother taking in pennies? So the rounding logic is also going to have to apply when cash is coming in, cash is going out, refunds. And if a customer returns an item that was rounded up and they return it, does it round back down or does it stay the same? Now is there a double loss? There's a lot of complexity to it.

Yeah, and I'm sure like a single location business has a lot less to worry about than somebody like managing 100 stores in 10 different states and 50 different counties, right?

Oh yeah. Yeah. And then, right, like for example, in New York they have a— they're trying to introduce their cash rounding legislation, which could be conflicting with the current legislation that requires or requires no discrimination or requires them to still accept cash. So there could be some conflict in there. Again, different states are having different rounding implementations. So yes, it is, it is going to be very chaotic until a uniform solution rises above.

I'm sure like accounting professionals are going to be having a really good time with this. I have two brothers that are CPAs and I'm sure there's—

Oh yeah, they're accounting.

Field then.

Yeah. And then like lawyers, they're also now starting to— I'm starting to see posts on LinkedIn from lawyers, legal folks talking about the penny because their customers are coming to them for legal advice of how should they approach it if their POS vendor isn't providing a solution, how can they be protected? So it's now hitting legal levels, it's business levels. So it's coming to the forefront. Sooner than later.

You should come out with some signs that people can hang up and just sell the signs, sell people signs about the penny, make a— for— we can all make a fortune. Somebody's going to come up with that, like, oh yeah, here's the penny rule and here's what it is. So what other, you know, so what do you, do you think like the, do you think like the government's going to come together and the, the federal, federal level are going to say, okay, this is the rule we want so that we don't have all this disruption in 50 states, or you predict that's just going to be— I don't like it when I see the federal government, they kick the can down the road. Like marijuana is a good example, right? Uh, we don't want to discuss marijuana, cannabis, right? We don't want to discuss cannabis. So now you have whatever, all these states have their own rules for Cannabis. Oh, we don't want to discuss CBD and hemp. Oh, now all the states have a rule for that. And that seems to be like a general thing that's been going on for like— I'm 65, so I see that like more like in the last couple of like probably 10, 15, 20 years, more of that happening, you know, and less like, okay, here's the federal law.

Yes. Yeah. So it's definitely from the conversation we had with the congressional staff was that unless it's changed since a few months ago, that they were still on the point of just providing the permissive safe harbor language of how rounding could look, but not giving the precise execution language to implement it. So unless that's changed, it doesn't seem that way. And now we're in a reactive state instead of a proactive state. Right. And, and that's where a lot of businesses, states, states are trying to come together and find solutions until the federal level is passed. But still, that, that gap is still going to live there until the market falls into a solution.

And so like in Canada and Australia, did they come up with like a one-set solution for the whole country, or are there fragmented solutions?

No, fortunately, uh, Canada, Australia, I think Sweden as well, are great examples to look to, but not examples that we can copy and paste in the US, where yes, they do have jurisdictions and provinces and stuff like that, but they don't have the complexity of tax system, I believe, that we have here in the US.

Right.

And of course, no taxation without representation is a pivotal pillar of our country. So with all those things in mind, we're just not quite those countries, right? And that's what makes us unique. So again, the complexity is still going to be there with 50 states, 13,000 jurisdictions. And again, another example where Connecticut, I think their rounding legislation is to always round down, and then the city in Bristol, Connecticut, they're rounding up for certain transactions. So, yeah, transactions, right? So some like taxes and fees there for the city. So That's where you're getting that kind of pull and reach from different legislations, and that fragmentation builds out.

Okay. So do you guys provide like consulting services to like merchants and point-of-sale companies like that? Like they can reach out to you guys?

Yes. Yeah, definitely. We'd love to get engaged with businesses to hear what they're going through, pain points, what they would like to see from a solution standpoint. Maybe what we've come up with is great, or maybe we can add something more, take something away. But also we're looking to build those relationships with POS vendors as a way to build a partnership to streamline a solution straight to the merchants, the business owners, so that they know they're with Toast and Toast is partnered with Senseless, for example, and they can just turn on our feature and then go about their business without having to worry about the interpretive risk. And that Senseless is going to take on that interpretive risk for the company.

Wow, that's— you guys are going to make a lot of money. Well, selling your, selling your, selling your solution because everybody's got to do this at some point in time, whether they're doing it right away where they're waiting and then they're going to do their first little toggle thing. It's just like the Alvera, right? Is that how you say it?

Alvera?

Alvera, Alvera, or something. Yeah, the sales tax thing. Like, they were around for a while, nobody was like messing around with them, and then all of a sudden, boom, you know, it got integrated into a lot of software and people started to use that because without an audit trail, somebody can come in and, you know, start doing, you know, oh, open up your books and let's go at it, you know. And who wants to sit there and deal with, deal with that? Because I remember I owned a restaurant, and I'll never forget, the liquor people came in one day and they go, oh, you're paying your liquor tax all wrong. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? They're like, no, you have to pay based on the date of the invoice. And I'm like, are you guys like— I was like laughing. So they sat in my— they literally sat in my office and they're going down like each month, right? And so then at the end, the lady, the lady sat there for 2 days, okay? 2 people for 2 days looking through all my liquor invoices, wine invoices, right? Adding and, and doing and all that, right? And going through all my stuff, right? And they know what you bought because they have the information from the vendor, right? And they go, oh, this month you overpaid $8, this month you underpaid $6. And they like added it all up. So at the end, the lady goes, oh, you owe us like $12.49. And I was like, wrote them a check. And I was like, so you sat here for like 2, like 14 hours to figure out $12.49. Right, that's crazy.

Very good use of your time. And I understand, you know, money is very personal. Of course it is. And I used to work in banking for 15 years and doing just that as a personal banker, business banker. I remember going through the passbook savings accounts and finding every little penny and nickel for a customer that really valued every dime in their account. So, and the same is going to translate into this problem, this situation for business owners and consumers, that penny or two or three quantifies. And for somebody, you know, living in poverty or rural areas, every, you know, coin, you know, matters. And, uh, and, and that's gonna be important to maintain the trust and transparency going forward with our currency system.

Yeah, every penny does matter, no matter how much money you have. I mean, because— and it matters to business too. If I'm a business owner and I got to deal with all this change. And let's say that, like, you're talking about a regional— that's just a regional store, right? Lose $4 million. They're not going to lose $4 million. They're going to say, okay, how can we make up $4 million? And we're going to make it up somewhere. And we're going to make it up somewhere by charging some upcharging. We have to figure out, like, oh, how many items do we sell? And in order to make back this $4 million, all the prices have to go up 3 cents. You know, it's like, you know, they're gonna have to figure out something out of how to not have that heavy of a loss. No one can— you can't lose $4 million and just go, okay, great, sounds good.

Yes. And the Federal Reserve in Richmond came out of the report a day ago sharing about how most transactions or most purchase items end in the 4, the 8, and the 9, which inherently would mean rounding up in most transactions. And from that standpoint, could cost the consumer anywhere from as low as $6 million extra a year up to $60 million a year. So that's before—

that's before you add on 6, 7, 8% sales tax.

Right. And so, but that adds on the fact that it still needs to have a neutral rounding system in place to help combat those transactions that would inevitably round up always and kind of help bring some balance overall.

Yeah, that's— yeah, Walmart has like some interesting— they end everything with like a 7 or a 5, you know, they have a weird pricing thing. So does Costco. They have like weird prices. They don't, you know, not everybody does the 99 or the 95. Right.

Yeah. And this idea with Senseless too is we wanted to have a, again, a boring solution that would still allow businesses to remain competitive in their pricing marketing strategies where that $9.99 is psychologically different than $10. Right. So this still allows business owners and businesses to still have that marketing competitive pricing advantage without having to suddenly change everything to whole numbers and still have fractional numbers behind the scenes. So this still allows business to run smoothly with as little disruption as possible.

Yeah, well, thank you for joining the podcast today. I appreciate it because I learned a lot about this problem. I mean, I wrote an article in the Green Sheet. It was a very short article, but it was to the point that there's— here's this thing that's being presented to everybody and nobody's talking about it. And boom, I meet Kyle. And he's the penny guy.

Yeah, that's what we've done. That's what we've come, like, yeah, this has become our sole focus the last almost year now. And so myself, Daniel, and Alex, we came together like a cliché out of University of Central Florida in the financial technology master's degree program there. And thanks to that opportunity allowed us to see this problem and put together a solution.

Wow, so you got— you're just recently out of college?

Yeah, yeah, I don't look like it. Uh, uh, went back and got a master's in finance technology. FinTech is a growing, you know, emerging technology field, and that learning experience has afforded us this, um, this opportunity.

All right, great. Well, hey, thanks to the state of Florida, University of Central Florida in Orlando. All right. We like Florida.

We're—

I'm in Florida. Kyle's in Florida. Awesome. So if people want to reach out to you, Kyle is on LinkedIn. You can find there. You can go to his website, centsless.org. So it's C-E-N-T-S, then less, L-E-S-S, dot org. And you can go check out what they're doing over there. Um, to my brethren in the business owners, okay? Because I identify as a business owner and in a fintech. So if you own a business, you should be reading about this. We'll put a link to my article. You should definitely check out their website. You should definitely be asking your point-of-sale vendor, your SaaS product, if you handle cash in your business, you know, what are they, you know, what are their plans? I'm sure they have a short-term plan. And a long-term plan. And I know dozens of people who own point-of-sale companies, and I'll gladly— me and Kyle, we can talk about this after the show, make some introductions for you, because he probably can help some of these companies, um, the ones at least that might be forward-thinking, and even the, you know, to that they're going to need to tackle this problem, because it's definitely a problem that needs to get tackled. So any last final words, Kyle?

I really appreciate the opportunity and everyone's time listening in. And yes, we're going to continue to stay on top of this hot topic, if you will, and continue to keep everyone updated. So check us out on our business LinkedIn page under Senseless as well as our website and definitely reach out any questions, concerns, or want to just again talk more about it, collaborate. I'd love to see this, um, this problem get solved soon for everybody.

Well, Kyle called the penny boring. I found this very interesting, and it's good to see that somebody has a solution to this problem and they're putting it out there. So there is a solution, there is a, a solution and a company that can help you solve this, solve this issue. And I'm sure that people are going to contact you. Thanks for listening to today's podcast, B2B Vault, the biz to biz podcast where we try to educate merchants on what's going on in the world of business. And today we learned all about everything you wanted to know about the penny but was afraid to ask, but now you know. So check out senseless.org and find out more about what Kyle and his team are doing over there, because this is something that we're going going to all have to deal with as consumers and business owners in the near future. Uh, carpe diem and peace out, everybody!