Joe Nicholls: Career Detours, Customer Empathy, and Cooking Up Better RevOps Outcomes

Welcome to Go-To-Market, a podcast for RevOps, sales, and marketing leaders to dive deep into industry insights and best practices. Go-To-Market is sponsored by Fulcast, the go-to-market cloud. My name is Amy Cook, and I am so excited to introduce Joe Nichols, a revenue systems executive at Monte Carlo. Joe, how are you?

I'm great. Thank you. How are you?

Good. Doing well. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's really great to, you know, I really enjoyed the conversations that we've had and, and one in particular really stuck out to me that we're going to talk about a little bit later, a contrarian viewpoint on best practice, if you will. So I'm But first, tell me a little bit about your background. How did you get into this?

Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me. It's truly a pleasure to, you know, talk shop with you and share kind of what I've learned throughout the years. So I worked through restaurants, you know, and I'm all throughout my 20s. And so it took a bit of an odd path. And I think that's kind of like the fun thing with your RevOps and RevOps professionals is that we all come from such diverse backgrounds. And definitely my college degree is in exercise and sports science, so like I don't know, it's who knows what we're doing here, but ended up working in customer support for a small business in Park City, Utah, and then kind of fell into the accidental admin where, where our Salesforce administrator left the company. And, and so we needed somebody to step up and I used it every day as a support agent and, and, and so I learned it and, and kind of grew from there. And as the industry has moved from sales ops and administrators of tools to revenue operations and a little bit more strategic roles in companies and. Kind of have just grown, grown through those, through those changes in the industry. So it's been fun.

Oh, that's amazing. I love that. What I love about RevOps is you can really be whatever you want to be and still like become this incredible RevOps professional, right?

Yeah.

It just is. There's some great mobility still in this, in this industry. It's still. Becoming what it's going to be. And so there's a lot of movement. So I think it's really awesome that you did exercise physiology, then you ended up in customer support, and now you're doing RevOps. And, and I'm like, well, they must have taught you, you know, like great finance and math fundamentals because that's a lot of what we're doing, right?

It's crazy. Yeah. It's, I, it's wild to think about, uh, you know, where where my job is today. And, and just, I think the restaurant, I mean, I, I actually think the restaurant industry is such a ripe ground for, you know, professionals where they're solving problems for customers every day. And, and that's what we do is we solve problems for our stakeholders. And so there's such a huge parallel between, you know, my background in the restaurants and, and what we, what I do today. So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's a crazy journey. I, I can't, I can't believe we're here.

Yeah, it's amazing. Well, You know, I come from a non-traditional background as well. I was a stay-at-home mom for many years, got back into the workforce because I had to. Kids have to eat, apparently.

Yeah, right.

And so, and then really enjoyed running, you know, marketing campaigns. And I came up through marketing and then I started getting more into the overall go-to-market and doing revenue operations for companies. And it was a very interesting path for me as well, because I approach it in a way that sometimes people don't look at it if they come like from a traditional sales operations background. And I imagine that's the same for you as you're coming up from the restaurant industry that's so customer-focused, then through customer success. Do you ever feel like that gives you an advantage? Do you ever feel like at the same time, because of the non-traditional background, you either missed out or other people perceive you differently in the revenue operations job?

That's a, yeah, that's a great question. I don't necessarily that I've ever felt it directly that I, you know, I felt like I missed out or, or that people look at, at my background differently. But I definitely think that coming through the non-traditional route gave me, you know, an advantage in terms of, and, and we'll probably, this gets kind of like transitioning into a little bit of the maybe contrarian take, but where I didn't have, like, I'm not, I haven't been in it for 20, 25 years where like, you know, businesses today are not what they were 25 years ago.

Exactly.

How to solve problems the way, the way that people did 25 years ago is, it is kind of silly. And so I think from that standpoint, coming in with kind of fresh eyes and coming in with like that customer focus and, and pro problem solving focus. Really gave me a big advantage.

I think so for me as well, because having to make changes very, very quickly in marketing, just like you have had to in restaurant, and I'm sure customer success as well, that, that to me is a kind of an unfair advantage.

Yeah.

One thing that I did encounter a lot, and tell me if this is, if you have, was that I would sometimes get stopped in my tracks trying to solve a problem by somebody who tried to shut me down with the word best practice. Well, this is best practice.

Yeah.

You ever had that happen to you?

Man. Yeah, it's, it's probably my least favorite thing is, is I've done it this way before, or that's how we're doing it now, or this is best practice. And, and so it's really gotten me to a point where it's just like, I just feel like best practices and, and past experiences are overrated and, you know, certainly need to be taken into account and like, you know, you can learn things from, from best practices or from, what's going on right now, but to, to kind of blanketly, blanket apply that or, or to try to just like put it in just because it's best practice is really not, not the right approach.

Hmm. I, that makes sense. So what, what do you do instead? Like if somebody, first of all, how do you approach things differently if you have a healthy respect for what's new and different as well as what's tried and true? What's your decision process there?

Yeah, it's, it's a great question and, and one that I don't think I have, you know, perfected by any stretch and continue to iterate and get better. But I think, you know, taking into account all the different variables, what are the, what are the business objectives? What are, you know, what is, what's important to the company right now? What are the key stakeholders saying about what's going on? What are our customers experiencing? Well, you know, what, what are, what's, what's going on? So there's like just, there's so many different variables that you have to take into account. I, I was think, as I was thinking through this conversation, I, I likened it to cooking breakfast. You know, if you're cooking breakfast there, you, with your best practices or your past experiences, you may assume that over easy with lightly toasted bread is, is best practice.

Yeah.

But if my, if my, if the person that I'm cooking for doesn't like over easy eggs and they want scrambled, or I don't have the right pan to do that. Or I only have wheat toast instead of sourdough, right? Like it, all these different variables really dictate how I implement the, the solution. And so you really have to take into account all of these various aspects of, of the business and, and to, to produce the best outcome of, of a problem. And so, I love it. Yeah. So, so that was my, that I, the other day, that was my thought process of as I was making breakfast for my wife and I.

You're like, this is exactly like my job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got that.

Yeah.

It's funny how those—

I totally agree.

It's funny how your profession really leaks into the rest of your life, right?

It absolutely does. I love it. It's like solving business problems over breakfast.

Yeah.

Yeah. It reminds me of just to take that metaphor a little bit further. There is one of my daughter's friends is so funny and I will take her to Bagel Shack and she'll order. A cheese bagel with a berry spread. And I was like, that's disgusting, Kaya. And she's like, have you ever tried it? And I'm like, well, actually, no, I have not.

Yeah, exactly.

And so to your point, you know, Kaya's the customer.

Yeah.

Who am I to say whether that's the best practice, right? It's all about what's going to work best for them. I love that metaphor. That's really fantastic. So, you know, stretching it a little bit further, let's say that You've got, you know, your, your eggs are your people and your bread's your processes and your avocados, your systems and your lemon peppers, your tech, right? Yeah, exactly. You're making it, making some good avocado toast with an egg on top. And how do you make the decisions in terms of like some of the variables that would allow you to choose one versus the other? Let's start with people. Like how do you know what is the right group of people to assemble for a team when you arrive at a given company?

Yeah, I mean, I think it really depends on, you know, kind of, so internally the stakeholders are a huge, huge part of it. And I think you have to really understand the problem that you're trying to solve. And so like, I think that like before you even get there, I think you have to think about kind of the table stakes of what is RevOps. And so like, I, you know, I think if we just try to go through solving business problems without any of this, any of these guidelines, I think you're going to struggle. And so like, I've really tried to like, you know, understand fundamentally RevOps is increasing visibility, which we, you know, which is data points. Like we're creating new data points or we're improving the quality of data points that increase visibility, efficiency gains for reps. And, and like, that's part of my job is to make reps better at their jobs. And then like a focus for reps and increasing the focus. And so. If with those assumptions and those kind of guidelines, now that gives me the ability to look at the problems that are before us and pull in the right stakeholders or pull, pull in the right team members. Mm-hmm. Or hire the right people in terms of what is their experience, right? Like I may need somebody that has come in and done this before, but like, I don't want somebody that, you know, it's back to our previous conversation or our previous points of like, I'm not like, if I talk to people it just, it rubs, it just rubs me the wrong way in terms of like, oh, I've done this before. I've done this 10 times. Like, that's great. But what's the saying, you know, that like the knowing is only half the battle. Like knowledge is, you know, when do we implement what we know?

And so, oh, you just used a GI Joe reference from my elementary school years.

Oh, that's funny.

Is half the battle.

Yeah, exactly. Yep.

I used to watch that cartoon forever ago.

It's hilarious.

But you're right. It's absolutely true. And then the other thing too, where I think the adaptability is so key is when you get stuck, one of the things that really stood out to me of what you've said so far is that businesses didn't operate the same way 25 years ago.

Yeah.

We shouldn't be trying to do the same old thing as 25 years previously because times have changed. And so finding those people, like you, like you say, with the right mix of experience and adaptability, I think is absolutely essential.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I, I'll say like, I think that there are, you know, there are situations where, you know, people that are just kind of type A and just like, I'm gonna do it this way. I did it this way before, it worked. I'm gonna do it again. You know, I think that's to each their own. I think that, you know, that there's, there's situations where that, you know, that is beneficial. You know, I, I will always lean towards. People that either haven't experienced it or will have that adaptability on my team, and that's who I want to go to war with for sure.

So, yeah, absolutely. I love that. When it comes to your technology stack and you talk about, you know, best practice technology stack or making changes that are adaptable and specific to the problems, how do you go about selecting a technology that will support your goals at hand? Do you have any advice for our listeners?

Yeah, I, I would say lean heavily on, on the people at, at the technology, right? I think that the technology is only as good as, as the people that support it and build it. And, and so really finding partners versus just vendors. Always tried to work together with, with our, with our technology team and make sure that that's the right fit. I think there's probably a few exceptions that the team doesn't necessarily work with you, but they're the best there, you know, for, for, I mean, I think like data, company data, I think is, is right for a company to come in and, and really thrive in, in terms of working with the RevOps partners. But, you know, I think that's how, that's, that's a, a really big differentiator for me is, is being able to work with a team.

Hmm. I really like that. That's a, that's a great call out when it comes to revenue operations. Do you normally do the marketing, customer success, and sales technologies and pull them all together, or do you focus on one or the other?

It's a, it's a loaded question for sure. I, I, you know, I think that historically, I think marketing is such a heavy, heavy lift and, and involves so much, especially when like, like Monte Carlo, we do a lot of events. And so like our team is, is really good at doing events and and we have a pretty large marketing team, you know, comparatively to the RevOps team. I think that that's probably been the hardest in, in all my experience, including previous companies. Like marketing is, is, has such a heavy lift that like, I would love to be, you know, more unified probably. Um, but I think marketing's the one that's hardest to have it be unified. I think customer success and sales, you know, there's, there's ample knowledge and, and information out there about handoff from sales and, and what. And so like, I think that one is, is a little bit more seamless and, and obvious, but I think marketing is a little bit, is the, is the one that I think is kind of its own animal. Yeah. It's evolving in terms of like, is it RevOps? Is it marketing ops? You know, I think we're still, I think everybody's still trying to figure that out.

I think so too. You know, I've read a really interesting LinkedIn post today about someone saying, hey, revenue operations, a lot of people are just renaming sales operations and calling it RevOps.

Yeah.

And his point, which was kind of contrarian as well, was that you can be a revenue operations leader and you can support the unification of the go-to-market without having all of marketing and sales tech in your department.

Yeah.

And it kind of speaks to your point where you're like, you know, you gotta do what's right for the business and the particular systems that you're working with and maybe the industry and maybe people's propensity to handle their own tech. And, and do you have any like advice for people who are trying to kind of create that unified go-to-market model?

Yeah. I mean, I think that like, It would be, I'd be remiss if I went to our marketing team and was like our marketing operations team and, and really tried to strongarm my little HubSpot knowledge, right? Like I know I can work, I, I can talk HubSpot, I know it, but I'm not the expert. Our marketing operations team, you know, that sits under marketing right now, you know, they're far more knowledgeable than I am. So like it would, I would be remiss to like try to go strongarm and be like, oh, we're RevOps. Like we need to own marketing operations. Like that's not gonna be helpful for anybody. So. But like, despite like my desire for us to all be more unified, I don't think it's the right time right now at Monte Carlo for me to go do that. So like, I think just working, understanding that like those are your stakeholders and, and like those are your teammates. Like we're all working at the same company. It's like there's no reason to like try to like, you know, disrupt any workflow or, you know, really should be focused on the customer and the company and, and what's best for, for us at the time. And so. Kind of just let it ride and just work with them rather than try to fight that battle.

I love that. Well, clearly, Joe, you know what's up and you've been around RevOps. You've got a really wonderful, flexible, and enterprise-level approach to everything. How do you stay at the top of your game? Clearly, you know what you're talking about. You're at the top. How do you stay there? It could be anything from your meditation practices to reading books about it, but, but—

Yeah, I mean, podcasts, like I've listened to yours and to your guests a lot and there's various other ones. I find the RevOps specific content, it may be not lacking, but like, I think that like it's growing still as is the industry. And so I think going to, I'm a big James Clear a disciple, so to speak. I, I, I listen to him and, and Tim Ferriss and really just like process-oriented people. I listen to podcasts a lot and I, I'd be remiss, like I, I, I run every day, so running really helps me stay physically fit and, and stay sharp mentally. And so physical fitness, get out and walk, enjoy the fresh air. Um, you know, get, move your body a little bit. That, that really does translate to, to mental sharpness. Um, And then I think just like the tools, like there's so many, like HubSpot and Salesforce, people obviously make careers based on just knowing one tool, right? Like, so just go learn a tool. I, I, I, yeah, so.

That's great. I mean, that, those were all, those were 3 amazing pieces of advice, you know, for us to personally and professionally and, you know, for mental clarity. So I, I love all, it makes me wanna go out and go for a walk right now.

Yeah.

I was thinking that in my mind, I'm like, oh man, I gotta really step up my physical fitness.

Yeah, especially with sunny days coming in more.

Especially with sunny days coming more. So, well, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. I absolutely loved our conversation and I really appreciate you taking the time and especially with your busy schedule at Monte Carlo.

No, no problem. It's been my pleasure and appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you.