Lessons in Leadership with Andreas Widmer

Welcome back to another episode of The Genius Podcast. My name is Karen Doyle, your host and founder of The Genius Project, an initiative for Catholic women designed to resource and support you towards growth in all areas of your life— personal, spiritual, and professional. We seek to do this through the Catholic Women's Masterclass, The Genius Podcast, which you're listening to, as well as our Catholic coaching programs for women and other online books and resources. If you would like to find out about any of these initiatives, you can visit our website www.geniusproject.co or come and join us on Instagram, genius_project_daily. And if you'd like to see the live recordings of these podcasts, you can check them out on the Genius Project YouTube channel. Make sure you subscribe so that you are notified every time a new episode drops. Ladies, over the last few weeks we have been, I guess, following the breadcrumbs, as I like to say. We say that in business, but following the moves of the Holy Spirit. And I really believe that the Spirit is inviting us as women to tap into to and unearth our unique God-given potential and gifts. And it's in finding and discovering what those gifts are that we discover our mission, our purpose, and what our personal vocation is, where we are being called to serve and to contribute with our gifts and into the lives of those around us. So to take this conversation further, we are incredibly blessed today to have Andreas Widmer joining us. Andreas is the founder and director of the Sioco Center for Principled Entrepreneurship at the Catholic University of America, where he loves to teach and mentor students towards their true calling. Previously, Andreas helped lead high-tech companies, bringing more than 100 leading-edge technology products to market. He also led several organizations focused on enterprise solutions to poverty. Most interestingly, he is a former member of the Swiss Guard serving under Pope John Paul II, and he is the author of the book The Pope and the CEO, which describes the 10 lessons that he learned from the late Pope about leadership and important And secondly, the centrality of the human person in work. Andreas' biggest accomplishment in life is building a great marriage together with his wife Michelle, and his biggest joy is seeing the character of their teenage son Eli develop and grow. Andreas has a passion for helping professionals of all ages to find deeper meaning in their work and sustainable success in principled entrepreneurship. Ladies, this conversation with Andreas is seriously one that you are not going to want to miss. So I really encourage you to carve out the time and space to maybe take some notes and to really listen Listen to what he is sharing in this week's episode of The Genius Podcast. Enjoy. Well, Andreas, welcome to The Genius Podcast. You're in one of the VIP group of 3 men who've had the privilege of being on this podcast. So welcome. You're joining us all the way from just outside of Washington, DC.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. I feel very privileged. Not only am I one of 3 men, but I'm on The Genius Podcast. So that's an achievement.

Well, look, thank you so much. I know you and I connected. I Tracked you down on Instagram recently, but I actually came across you to begin with reading your book, The Pope and the CEO. And this was a beautiful read. I know that you've been a guest on my husband's podcast as well, and he connected with that book, I think, when it first came out. But I'm a little slow to catch up, so I'm a few years behind him in connecting. But look, it was a beautiful book, and you've had such an incredible sort of journey in your life, I guess, working.

Yeah.

You had the privilege of serving Blessed Pope John Paul II in the Swiss Guard, which is, I just cannot imagine the honor and that experience. But before we dive into that, could you share a little bit about yourself with our listeners, your background, what you're doing now?

Yeah. So right now I'm here in Washington, DC. I teach at the Catholic University of America in the business school, the Brick School of Business. And I started an entrepreneurship center here called the Sioka Center for Principled Entrepreneurship. And, but I'm not an academic. I don't have a doctorate. I'm a practitioner. So I have, I'm a lifelong entrepreneur. Um, as you say, I was in the Swiss Guards many, many years ago as a young man, but came to America and was very blessed with a career in high-tech software, building companies, forming, you know, growing and helping to grow companies. And so on this twist and turn way, I found my way to appreciate more and more. I mean, my, my initial kind of, you could say, reversion, but I grew up as a cultural Catholic, more or less.

Sure.

But then when I went into the Swiss Guards, which is a foreign legion, I wasn't— I didn't do this— most of the Swiss Guards don't do this for religious purposes or religious reasons. They do this because it's cool to be a bodyguard, and it's sort of a military thing to do. And that's why I did it. I didn't know what else to do, and I thought it was cool to be a bodyguard. And then— but then I met John Paul II, and it changed my life. And I found through him, I found Jesus Christ, and I became a practicing Catholic.

Wow.

And then, but then, you know, it's like one step forward, two steps back. Through my whole career, I, it took me a long time to integrate what he taught into my work, you know, to bring this from Sunday to Monday through Saturday and, and to really make my work my prayer, my business my prayer, and do all that. And that's something that I eventually wrote this book about. And then that book led to the invitation by this university for me to help them build a business school, and, and that's what I've been doing for the last 10 years.

Fantastic. What an experience. What a journey.

Indeed. Praise God. I feel, I feel very blessed.

Yes. And I think what you're— what you mentioned there is just that you went into the Swiss Guard not really knowing what you wanted to do. And I find it amazing how we can have a plan for our life and then we can start off on that plan, but then God has other ideas. And, and kind of we have these different paths that sometimes we might think are obstacles or disappointments but can actually lead to I guess our true vocation and mission.

One of the reasons why I left Switzerland was actually because I pretty much failed at everything. I was horrible at school. I have ADHD. I, I, when I was 20, but before I went into the Swiss Guards, I'm not kidding you, I think I read 2 books in my life.

Really?

I grew up in a village of 400 people in the mountains. I was more outdoors. I was a physical kid.

Yeah.

And So I came there with very little self-esteem. You know, usually the tough guys are the ones with the low self-esteem. So they make up with it with the toughness. And that was me pretty much.

Okay.

And so that's something that John Paul saw right away. Now, the way this works with God's providence, I think it was C.K. Chesterton who wrote in, I think it's The Idea and The Silmarillion, but it doesn't really matter. But basically, that what we do is we collaborate with God in a way, And even when we collaborate and make choices, God is like creating a symphony around us. And then we come in and we make the wrong tone, right? And we like coming in and I come in and say, I'm gonna leave my country, I'm gonna go do this. And in a way, I'm doing it halfway, more than half not for God. And then instead of God, you know, this is like the prodigal son kind of picture. Instead of God saying, oh, you naughty, and you should, you know, I'm gonna exclude you. Because it of course disrupts the symphony that God is playing. Instead of excluding me with that or excluding you or anybody with that, what God does is God expands the symphony until your tone fits. You see what I mean?

Beautiful.

It's like, that's my whole life story, that at all these places when I failed and I didn't measure up and I had a low self-esteem and all that, God would use this and expand the symphony Until it fit into the great orchestra that God is like playing, that this music of my life, the music of your life, the music of salvation history.

That is a really beautiful analogy. I love that. I have never heard that before, actually, but it's quite beautiful.

It was my son who told me about it.

Was it?

Because we homeschooled our son for the entirety of his education, and And he's very much into Chesterton and Tolkien and things like that. And he read that and comes to me and says, this is the most beautiful. And I said, yeah, this is indeed the most beautiful thing.

It's amazing. You mentioned that you homeschool your son. We homeschool our eldest daughter as well. And I think what you'd pick up on, something there is quite beautiful, is our school system just dumbs down a lot of the beauty, the truth, beauty, and goodness really of what the church offers and what's available to us to flourish. And I know our eldest daughter, her world has just opened up in terms of what she's learning. And similar to you, she comes to us every day and I've learned this and I've learned this. And it's beautiful joy that's opened up inside of her. And I think what I see in her is these seeds of vocation beginning to emerge, which is really beautiful to witness.

You know, one of the things, and I'm just putting this together now as we're talking, is one of the key things that John Paul would tell me that would just like blow me away is to say, I cannot wait to see the great things you're going to do with your life. And I'm like, are you talking to me?

Hello?

I will absolutely— I have absolutely no capacity to do this. But he says, oh yes, you do. God has given you all these gifts and everything, and I want you to not be afraid. Like, put out into the deep. Go. Don't be afraid. Go. What we're doing in our school system today is we're actually not holding the kids up to a standard. We have no confidence in them, and we have no hopes in them. We— they're not saying, oh, I can't wait to see the great things you're going to do with your life. We basically put the students in a performance like in a box that they have to do a certain conformity, conformance or performance, but we are not awakening in them and seeing in them the person that God has made them to be, and this was almost like this blossoming coming out that they learn the love of learning and the love of the desire for God to then reach for that excellence that God made them for. We are suffocating that with a school system that leaves no room for personal vocation in this, which is as different as many as people that we have.

Yes, absolutely. I remember my daughter came to me a couple of years ago. She said, Mom, if I stay in this school, I'm going to end up really dumb. She said, because we just, we do nothing. Like, girls are online shopping, everyone's on social media. And she said, I actually want to learn. I thought, my husband and I said, well, what can we do? Like, you have to listen to that. And I think for us, our daughter, one of her charisms will be, and one of her gifts is this passion for truth and for knowledge. So I say to her, I can't wait to see what you're going to do with your life because I see those gifts emerging. And this week I was walking with my son, he's only 14, and he's sort of starting to talk about electives and what he might do with his life. And he said, well, someone said to him, you should do this, this, and this. And I opened up his world with a whole different, I guess, what do you call it, a table or a platter of what can you do?

Yeah.

Like, what is possible? And let's have a look at what your innate gifts are. Let's Check out your strengths and, and let's help you identify those so that you can make good choices that will lead you towards the vocation God's chosen for you. And I, I love that.

This is exactly what I'm teaching in my course here at the Catholic University. So I have one course, the intro course to business, it's called The Vocation of Business, and it's based on, on my book, The Pope and the CEO. And in it, I'm basically approaching life from that. I mean, there's 3 levels of vocation. There's the universal vocation, which we all have, we go back, go to God and and go to heaven and adore and praise God forever. So, but then there's the primary vocation, which is our way of life. So are we called to be married or religious or priests or single? And that's— and I go with the students through this. But then we have a secondary vocation, which is what do you do every day, right? And that's your— yeah, that's your work. And what we need to do is to find through the gifts that God gives us. And I specifically work on the secondary vocation. So I'll talk about the others, but that's different classes. I'm talking about the work vocation. You say the first thing I need you to do is to meet yourself, to learn, to ask like your family. And so what do you think I have like a gift? God gives you gifts. That's why they're called gifts, right? Talents and it is like gift. And so what I do is work with the students, with every student in my class, work to help you do an inventory of your gifts. And these are external gifts. I'm 6'9. I'm a tall, big guy. But there's— that's one gift, right? And say, now, how can I use this gift to help others? Right? So there's 2 things I want to teach you. I want to help you figure out what your gifts are. And for that, I'm gonna have a whole program to help you with that. And then to turn around and then use these gifts and say, how may I help you? That's the core question of business. If I can help you with my gifts, creating value for you, which value is another word for profit. If I can help you profitably with my gifts, we have a business, right? And then when we have a business, that becomes our profession, our career, our industry. And that's what the student learns throughout the school. That's why I start with every student individually a business in, in class. I don't let them collaborate with each other. I want— because I want to show that I have had 1,200 students so far since I started teaching, and I have never had a student who couldn't start a business. Wow. Because God gifts, gifts people every, every day. There's nobody without gifts.

That's right. Absolutely. And, you know, as you're talking, I think the Holy Spirit is actually doing something at the moment. The Holy Spirit has a I think especially for the women who listen to the Genius Podcast, because the last 2 episodes that we've recorded have been along similar lines. And I think that the Holy Spirit is wanting to awaken within women, particularly their unique gifts, and then where are they called to serve and contribute.

Yep.

Because, I mean, it's a principle of life, isn't it? We reap what we sow. That when we're contributing, when we're seeking to be a gift, that's actually where we find true happiness, fulfillment. Enjoy.

Indeed. And I wanna say that this, when I'm saying, so work is primarily the question, how may I help you with my gifts? Then much, most work done in the world really is actually not done for profit because it's done for another reward. One of the ways of, of, of human interaction is to get a reward. And the reward is love and service and holiness and all of that. And that's a lot of us at home. Like my, my wife and my, my mother-in-law just took care of my father-in-law who passed away. you know, a year or two ago. And that is, that was work. But the reward of that has to do with eternal life and love and all of that. But that doesn't mean somebody who does that cannot move and move into the business world of saying, how may I help you and add value for others?

Yes.

Maybe outside the family or so, and start to generate a return with that. That's, that's what I'm teaching. That's, I do a little bit in this book. I do much more of it in my new book. But I think that's especially true for, you know, I often talk to women who have used their, their genius, you know, John Paul would love to call the feminine genius, who educate and bring up their children and to take care of people in the family to help maybe run the husband's business and everything. And now they're at a point of saying, okay, I'm now ready to do this for the next chapter and do something. And that's where I do a lot of work in helping people. How do you discern that? How do you create a profitable venue without betting the farm? How do you explore these talents and see what the market responds to that can turn into a profitable revenue stream?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think on the last podcast that I did with Renee Doyle, we spoke a little bit around this idea that sometimes women get lost in and they kind of move to the sidelines of their own life. They think that they're just a mum or just raising the kids, which is sort of an illegal word. I would say just on that, there is— that is the greatest task. And I think in our culture, we need to remind women that they don't necessarily have to be out producing and getting all the Instagram likes and kicking big goals because—

Let me just tell you something. Let me just tell you something. So if you're a mum listening to this and you think you just brought up 1 or 2 or 3 or more kids, the most stressful thing. So I ran companies with thousands of employees. I was in the military. I was a bodyguard. The most stressful thing I've ever done in my life is when my wife was in the hospital and I had to take care of a 6-month-old. I didn't eat. I didn't sleep. I didn't watch. I didn't know what was up or down. And I can handle all these other things.

But this You couldn't handle that.

I kissed her feet and I thank God when my wife came back. Now you tell me you have nothing to offer? I beg to differ.

Can you speak into that for a moment? Because I, I really think it's a powerful message. I don't— I believe as we're progressing in this culture and, and I think throughout COVID, the last 5 years, different trends, ideologies have accelerated. And I think there is a real devaluing of the gift and the value of femininity and the gift and the value of motherhood. And I'd love you to just speak into that. To really affirm women and remind them of their value.

The biggest thing, I want you to have confidence. I want you to have confidence. I keep saying this to my students as well. Trust. You're a daughter of God. Like, God made you with all kinds of possibilities for the good. Okay, one gift that you— and of course, every person has to be— you have to discover the gifts for every person, and we can say what John Paul would talk about the genius of women is that empathy, that you basically— and the reason why it takes— why I have such a horrible time, I think, with a 6-month-old is that everything is a crisis. I have no anticipation because I don't know what's coming. So I don't have the empathy to actually say, this is a sign of that to come. I don't see it. So Think of what I said. The core sentence of business is, how may I help you? Who can answer that better than a mother or a woman or a person with strong empathy who sees the other person and they don't have to say a word? You know exactly what they need. That is gold. Okay. I mean, this is like what product producers, product creators, service providers, Want is the anticipation of the customer need. Now you can say, well, I don't know about this product or that product. That's a skill. There's a difference. You have talents and then the skill. So the talent, I can't teach you the talent. Either you have the talent or you don't. It's like I'm 6'9. I'm not gonna be a horse jockey. Okay, that I can't train myself into it. But as a tall guy, you can teach me basketball. Right? So as a person of empathy, marketing and understanding how a product works or how the market works is something that's a skill, not a talent. Talents you have, you discover. Skills you learn, you acquire. And then the third thing, you cannot really only teach 3 things. You can teach the skill, the knowledge. And then the third thing is the character, that is your values, your virtues, That you're what you, how you behave and what you desire ultimately, right? And those, those you have as a, you know, if you brought up a family and you nurtured a family, then that's, you're good on that. It's this, the middle piece that's missing and that's the skill. But the skill is the easiest part of the equation.

Yes.

Basically, a skill you only acquire through practice. And my approach to these kinds of things is always to say, what's the next step? Don't get ahead of yourself. Just say, I have an overall vision and your only decision and your only question is, what's the next small step I need to take? We're not talking about 5 years from now. Just take the next step and start to define the measurements. I love to sort of work with God in a way of saying, look, Lord, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna pull on this. And if you want me to do this, then put a fish on the end, put a fish on the end of that line. And I'm gonna pull on this line and this line and this line. That's my way of discernment. But I have to do the next step and the next and the next, which is to pull on the line. And that's a very basic form of discernment where you pray through it. But it's a very basic form of discernment, which our commitment is action, that we act upon our insights. and to act upon the talents that God gave you, that you don't go bury them, that you actually trade with them. And that's, I think, what we're called to do.

Absolutely. And to be good stewards. Like, I think you said that first step is that self-awareness, like understanding yourself. That's sort of what I was teaching my son. I'm like, what brings you life? What brings you joy? What are you good at? So it's that self-awareness, and then it's, it's sort of stewarding and identifying the gifts and then upskilling So that you can serve. Because I think, you know, a gift is very much like a plant, that we have to water it, we have to cultivate the soil and provide the conditions so that it can grow and flourish. And I think sometimes we forget that. We think that God will just drop a fax from heaven telling us what to do, but we forget this cooperative and that co-creative aspect.

Do you know that I don't teach— it's not exactly true, but in general, I do not teach business plans. Because I wanna teach business dos. Don't— I want you to have a general idea of what you're gonna do. But, you know, you know as well as I, I mean, you guys have started several businesses. The first thing that's gonna change is the business plan. And the reality looks very different than the business plan. My goal in working with students is to say, let's find the first customer. Let's go ask the first person, how may I help you? and then do something profitably. Once you— that's an immediate market validation. It also gives you A, immediate revenue, and B, it gives you immediate feedback. That's so helpful on so many levels. And that's what I mean by fishing right away. I put the line in the water right away. Your goal is not to create a business plan. Your goal is to get the first customer. And that can— and there's this idea that's this guy Kevin Kelly. It applies to this small startup. I would say I teach this method called Lean Startup. And people always think that I need to have this huge business and I need to be whatever you call it in Australia, Walmart or Amazon or something. No, no, no, you don't need to be Bill Gates. I'm not Bill Gates. All you need is if you have a small business where you have a call to action and there's maybe 1,000 people somehow involved in what you're doing, you're done. All you need is 1,000 customers. And you're done. That's a much more manageable. And once you get 1 and then 2 and then 3 and then at 100, you're already at 10%.

Yes.

Imagine, think about it that way. And who would be that first one? That's why I would, the time instead of into a business plan, I invest into the first profitable customer.

And it's like taking that first step and meeting that first person. I Coming to mind is a woman here in Australia. Her name's Janet Smith, and she had this beautiful idea. So it might not even be a business idea, it might be a ministry idea, it might be just something that you might want to start up in your little, your local community where you are. But I remember this woman, Janet, she came to me, she had this idea of creating a forum where women could come and do craft, but they would have a speaker and they would be renewed in their faith. And that's now called the Maker's Table, and she runs these all over the place now. But she started small, so She has, I think, 6 or 7 children. So, you know, I have friends with many kids and they've been able to start up incredible ventures.

I'm not enamored with the greatest dreams or aspirations in that sense. What I'm enamored with is to find, is to create value in everyday life. I'll give you a couple of examples that just come to mind. I have a friend who literally started his company. He studied philosophy. And then was it like in social work? And then eventually the only thing he started to do is to say, I'm gonna introduce people to each other.

Yes.

And he just lived on, I mean, he, it was no money in the beginning where he said, you need to meet that person. And of course he had this slant towards business of saying, you guys should do business together and you people should do business together. And let me get this and introduce this person. They should, they're looking to buy this, they should go there. Today he has hundreds of people working for him. And he eventually moved into software development where he started to develop products for other people. And all he started with is to connect people. It's how may I help you? I can, oh, you need, you know, when I hear your story, you need to meet that person. This is somebody who, if your talent is that you know people and you understand, you know, you can understand different kinds of people, then that's a talent and that's a valuable talent. You can bring it across. I have a friend where she basically had, she just has this artistic talent. She's a strong introvert. introvert, wouldn't want to speak to a crowd if her life depended on it.

Okay.

But she had a sense of beauty and the sense of like most greeting cards and things like that and designs were just either not of good quality or not wholesome. And so she started to make her own. She did like wedding invitations and she did greeting cards and stuff and she started to sell them, but it grew. And so her husband eventually joined her and they, and today they have this, I mean, the US market is of course also very large, but they have this large Paper company where they, uh, where they produce beautiful designs. And she still does that. She still does her designs. And that's, that's her gift, like her sense of beauty and goodness of saying people want to give cards and invitations to each other that are wholesome and beautiful.

That's right.

And so, I mean, and so that, so you can have 100 different stories. One of the things that John Paul did that I often try to do that. So if you, if you're listening and you have an idea, he would have— he had a desk in the chapel, a right, a small writing desk, and he would always have these yellow notepads, you know, with the white, with the red lines and the yellow.

Yeah.

And he would go into the chapel and sit and start to write his plan, like his encyclicals, his, you know, the big, the big movements of his papacy. And he would basically go in there and say, Lord, here I am. I want to do your will. now would be a good way, now would be a really good time to inspire me, you know, because I'm coming to you. You're the chairman of the board of my, of what I do here, and I, and, and, and in adoration first, and then, and then write and pray. He would actually integrate Jesus into his, into his work that way, that anything you read from John Paul II is going to be started in front of the Eucharist. So be like John Paul. Take your pen and pad, And go into, into your church and go in front of the Eucharist and say, here I am, Lord. Yeah, I'm, you know, I come to do your will. Tell me, tell me what that is. And then start to write and let your— don't, don't look over your shoulder. Let it go. Let it go. You're, you're with a loving God, with, with a Father, with a brother who loves you. And And just trust that process.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I think I run a Catholic Women's Masterclass here, and one of the modules we talk about is really helping to unearth those hidden desires and the dreams in women's hearts. Because I think the greatest thing that women need is to be given permission to dream, that life gets a little serious and a little heavy and there's all of the demands. But even in the midst of all of that, if you still have a dream that you can just fan that flame, that's— that brings this life and this joy to you, that even in the midst of the struggle and the hustle, there's that little bit of life. And so there is a real invitation for women. I'd really encourage women listening just to do exactly what you're saying, to, to go before the Lord and say, what is the dream that you have for me in this season of my life? And then start to take little steps. I think this week I've been trying to do a project for schools. We, we have a business that does a lot of resources in respectful relationship space. And it's, it's hit roadblocks for about 12 months. And on Monday, I just said to God, right, if you want this to happen, you're going to have to open the doors because this is just becoming too much hard work. Do you know, within— so I hadn't done it because I didn't have a venue, I didn't have a videographer, I didn't have a narrator, I didn't have students. Do you know, within 30 minutes of saying that prayer on Monday morning this week, I had a venue, We had a videographer, we had a narrator, and we had 10 students to participate, and we're filming tomorrow. And so sometimes we just gotta beg God.

Exactly. Sometimes we do, and sometimes it comes out this way or that way. I, I have to say, I've had the situations where I was trying to get back into an industry. I just finished with one company, and I, I went into this venture capital firm, and I'm telling you, I tried everything under the sun. to get back into this industry and to do my next company. And the question is this, if I— what I want to show is that this go— if there's no fish on that line, I will move on. And God has my commitment to say, I, you know, it's this radical dependence on God to say, no fish, no go, right? So I am willing to change my course If the feedback, if the discernment is that I should not do this, it helps to have, especially in big things like this, where I'm, you know, in this industry, and it's— and I'm clearly seeing this is not going anywhere— to have a spiritual director that, that is a solid person and is trained in this, in the discernment, and can guide you. That I had somebody guide me with that. But that's in a way, you know, this change of of career that I had from high tech, running high tech companies and so on to now being a professor was an experience like that. You know, this didn't just happen like that. So I want to show both sides that yes, and maybe in the beginning, you will have had 3 of these fishing lines where there's nothing on it. And I need you to move on and put another fish and put another line in, you know, the net, as Jesus would say. And Yes.

Fantastic. Well, look, can we change pace a little bit here? Because I'd really love to hear about your experience, I guess, working with John Paul II. And just, I know in your book you said he's perhaps the most authentically human person you'd ever met. I'm just interested in, I guess, what was that experience like for you? And you'd said that it's because of him that you had this conversion back to the faith and you became a practicing Catholic. As opposed to a cultural Catholic. What was— what were those interactions like? And, and what was that pivotal moment that really turned your heart towards Christ?

So the first interaction with him, and this is how this all came about, is this— it's the starting point. The starting point, and I touched on it before, is this insecure self that I am. And we, we all have that without God, that we Don't know who we are. We're trying to prove ourselves. We know we're weak inside and we're looking. And I just, I was just a confused kid and just was just putting this toughness outside. I used my size to basically then just put on tough.

Okay.

And so that's how I show up down there. But inside, God sort of prepped this in a way that my first time going to work there, Uh, you know, I went to a— so I went to all the Swiss military and then at a recruit school in, in the Vatican. And I started working right around Christmas. And I knew that my family— I'm the youngest of 6 kids— was celebrating Christmas and everything. And I was so miserable. And I so much regretted entering there because there I suddenly saw how tough it was.

Hmm.

That I just wanted to go home, but I couldn't because I signed up. I mean, I'm now in this thing. And I was a herding puppy, I'm telling you. And I, and I was asked to go and serve right in front of his apartment. But to me, that didn't really mean anything, or I didn't really care. And because I pretty much spent that whole evening crying.

Did you?

Because I just regretted having even joined the Guards and everything. And then he comes out of that door and finds me there basically crying, and he See, he immediately looked through me and he said, look, I'm, I'm so happy that you're here working with me. You will see everything is going to be fine. And he basically embraced me and said that he was happy to be there, that he will now go and pray for me. And he went to celebrate Christmas Mass. What it was is I had this anger in me and this man comes to me and he wasn't the Pope to me. I didn't know what that meant.

end.

There is this human being come to me with these deep, clearly gray eyes embracing me and saying, I feel, I feel your anger and I feel your pain. I'm so sorry. You'll see everything is going to be okay. Here's what I'm going to do for you right now. Not, you know, Andreas, you should do this. No, here's what I'm going to do this right now for you. I'm going to go and I'm going to pray and celebrate Mass for you. If he would have told me to pray, I wouldn't know how to pray. I didn't pray. And here I'm like saying, this is very different. This, this man approaches me in a totally different way. And he saw, he saw my weakness, but he didn't exploit it. Didn't, didn't touch into it. He basically acknowledged me and, and offered help doing something for me. And from then on, our, our conversation kind of, kind of, you know, continued every time we saw each other. As a guard, you, you don't talk to the Pope unless the Pope talks to you, right? I mean, just, we're bodyguards, we're in the background. And so, and it's not, we're not having this, these 2-hour conversations or so, but it's like passing. He stops, he says, how are we doing? Are you feeling better? And eventually he, of course, takes his rosary and he says, look, I, I pray this, this is my favorite prayer. And he gives me the rosary. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna pray the rosary. I mean, he basically— what happened is—

That's great.

Yeah, he became such a— I tell you, he became, with his life, he became such a role model for me. He was a tough guy. He would go swimming, he would go hiking and skiing. We could hardly keep up with him.

Really?

And this was a 60-year-old man, and we were 20, okay? And I was 13. Yeah. And so, to me, he was like, wow. And but then also, he was jovial. I saw him when the circus came, and there were poetry readings and music. And then, and then I saw him pray with this intensity. And I saw somebody who knew who he was. And he was happy. And I'm like, that's what I want. I want Him. And then when I approached him, he says, you don't want me, you want who I have.

Jesus.

Here. Yeah, you want Jesus Christ, and you can have him. And I— and it was sort of a, a guide, you know, he sort of guided me towards this. And it was through prayer, through Mary and the Eucharist, that he— and there were people involved around him, um, that I became— that, that this first infatuation and this first impression just on him, you see, this is, I think, how, how conversion happens, that I was so enamored with him and with his— what he stood for and how he loved me, and then he switched that over to Christ. And so he sort of took me and switched that over, and then that blossomed into my faith, and, and I'm— I will be forever grateful to this man because he didn't do this as the Pope. He did this as my co-worker, as he would say, as a human being, you know, because of our work together. And that is something all of us are called to do, and, and it's exactly that model. It goes all the way back to Paul. Paul did that exactly. He was a tentmaker. That's exactly what he did.

Yeah. Yeah, that's just so beautiful. So I have to ask you, do you pray the rosary every day now?

I do, with some exceptions. So now we also do it at, uh, with the family here.

Yes.

And I, I have to say, like, just right now at the end of the semester, it has suffered a bit, but it is a constant companion, and I pray at least a bit of it every night. In the Guards, I'm telling you, I, during my whole discernment process of staying or leaving there, I probably prayed 10 rosaries a day.

Yeah.

And so I, I still have some in my tank, I think. Yes.

Beautiful. So tell me, um, share with me another moment, I guess, with John Paul II, um, that really, I guess, ignited a passion for you. You talk about in this book, The Pope and the CEO, and some of the leadership lessons that you learned from him. I'm interested in some of those leadership lessons and how they translate to women in whatever season they find themselves in, because we are called to be leaders. We are all called to be bearers of Christ's image to every single person that we encounter. Can you highlight some of those leadership lessons and how they might relate to women specifically?

Yeah. One thing that just comes to my mind is when I, when I did the swearing in, when I gave my oath that I will give my life for the Pope, the Pope then invites your parents, and there is a private audience and you, and you know, this was like 6, It was four or five months after we met first, after I showed up, and I just remember that transformation. So I left as a kid in Switzerland. I mean, I left at nineteen, and it was you know I still lived at home, so I still had my parents, and and I'm the youngest of six. But then but then I lived there in the Vatican, and I and the parents arrived, of course, and they they were not in a foreign environment and everything. And then as we we walk up this hall, and the Pope is at the end of the wall of the hall, and it's a long hall and, and we walked towards him and I started to realize that, you know, I held my parents' hands many times, but this time they held my hand. It's just, it's this, it looks the same from the outside, but here they hold my hand and I, I could feel it and it was a change, my, my entry into adulthood in my opinion. And here I come in front of the Pope and when I come What he does is he diffuses the tension. And what he did is he says, oh, here's Andreas, he's my— he's— and he goes to my dad, you know, he's my tallest, and I can see where he got it from. Because my dad is, you know, I'm his size. I'm 2 meters and 3, so that's like 6'9.

Wow.

And so he diffused the situation in this tense situation. He diffuses it, makes a joke, and then turns around and says to my mom, you know, Andreas is really one of my favorites because— and then he started to tell her things that I actually did.

Yeah.

I appreciate so much how he does this. And he was there at Christmas and he's, he's a tough guy and he goes the extra mile. I'm telling you, thank you for sending him here. I'm so happy. I have pictures of my mother crying and everything.

That is so beautiful.

And John Paul, you know, hugs her and everything. What this means to translate it, take the Pope out of it in terms of him being the Pope. Here's my manager.

Yes.

Think of it this way, my, the CEO of my company where I who, when my loved ones and when my community comes, points out why I'm so good, doesn't just say platitudes that fit anybody, but he knows who I am. And he can tell you what exactly I did. We go back to the empathy and the noticing. This is exactly the path. Most men don't know how to do this. So you have this gift of praise that do this for your kids, do this for the people you work with, If you go out into the marketplace, do this: notice and comment. If you— this has created eternal loyalty from me to this man in the workspace, even because everybody wants to be seen like this. And his trick was this. So eventually they asked him, how do you— how come people feel, even if they're one person in a million people that saw you, they feel like you're speaking to them? And he's like, not me. here's what I do, but I know the trick. You think it's not me, but I think I know the trick. Before I meet people, I pray for the Holy Spirit and I say, Lord God, if you wouldn't love these people, they would immediately cease to exist. So you're loving them into existence, and here they are in front of me. Give me your eyes. Take away my prejudice. Take away my bias. Give me your eyes. is to see them with the love you see them, because if you wouldn't love them, they wouldn't exist. And then I enter the room. We can all do that. They say that a prayer to the Holy Spirit is not refused. And so what he does, and what we are called to do, is to see others with this God, with hope, with God's hopeful gaze, right?

I love that.

The God that's willing to change the symphony. Is this God with a hopeful gaze to us to see the glass half full? That's his approach. And I think that's a, that's actually a very feminine approach of being willing to share the stage, of being willing to share it all and being able to point out the good in the other. That's a beautiful practice. Hone it and practice it. And this comes around. What goes around comes around.

Yes, it does. That's beautiful. I love that, that hopeful gaze. I know in— I think, I don't know whether it's Love and Responsibility or Theology of the Body, he talks about the peace of the interior gaze when we're gazing on one another in, I guess, romantic love that we wouldn't be seeking to take, but that peace of the interior gaze that appreciates the essence of the other person. But I love that phrase you've just said there, gaze upon another with that hopeful gaze of Christ. It's beautiful.

It's God is the absence of conflict. And so because God is not a loving person or a very nice person— God is love. It's the absence of conflict. What the destroyer, the tempter, the devil here is constantly putting this division and this competition and this, you know, we all feel it, this putting down. That's all from the devil. That's the destroyer and the tempter. What we're looking for Is this loving gaze, a loving, expecting, in this, in that hopeful gaze of saying, it's okay, it's okay. And then that is what creates this deep touch inside of people. And I'm not saying that you should go into your, you know, grocery store, but if you have a grocery store at home and start to talk to people about Jesus in that way right away, that's not what he does. But that's not how it works. I'm sure Paul didn't do it that way either.

Mm-hmm.

Just love them, you know what I mean? That gaze, just love them, and they will turn to you. In my entire time with John Paul, he never told me what to do in that sense. He gave me the rosary and says, even there he says, this is my favorite prayer, try it.

It's like an invitation.

Yeah, it's an invitation. He's never ever told me what to do. Even when I left, he was sort of surprised that I was leaving and so And, you know, God in this sense doesn't do that either, that God gives us this free will and it's an invitation, but it's this total absence of this kind of putting down, you know what I mean?

Yes.

And I think that's where we can practice what John Paul did. This is why there were millions of people in a place and they reacted to him, whereas they really reacted to the Holy Spirit.

And he really did embody and carry the Holy Spirit in such a beautiful way. I remember many years ago when I was in grade 6, actually, my dad owned a Christian bookshop here in our hometown, and one of the women was able to get him a ticket when the Pope came to Canberra for a Mass, and it was in the front row, and his motorcade went past us, and he just stopped, and he just looked our way, and it truly felt like he was gazing into your own eyes.

Exactly.

That's it.

That's the one. You know, I've done so many years, so I was serving there, I left in '89, so that was a long time ago.

Yes, yes.

You don't believe how many people I've met who have the very same impression of John Paul, the very same experiences I had where I had him right in front of me and they were one in a million and the exact same thing happens and this is exactly on the level, this is the same experience.

And I think if you, if we can sum that up, it's really that what he gives you is what Christ gives us and this deep longing is to be seen known and loved for who we are, not what we do. And I think that it's so important that firstly— and I'm obviously, you're a man and I'm a woman, but as women listening, but all human persons— like, we have to sit before the Lord and we have to receive from him that identity and, and him— hear him say to us, you are the beloved, my favor rests on you. And only after we receive our identity, then can we receive our mission. And, and our vocation.

It's, it's being before doing.

Yes, it is.

Be first, and that's be the beloved daughter, be, you know, redeemed by Christ, and then deduce what needs to be done afterwards. What does the person, what does the, the daughter of Christ, of God, do? What, what does she do? But first be, right? And I think that's something we need translate into our business world as well, to say first be and then do. You basically, in a sense, on the business side, you have to fake it until you become it.

You make it.

I like that. But always do it out of the being conviction to say, is what I want to be and who I want to be, is that a wholesome thing? Yeah, that's the discernment. But then of course, you're not going to know all the skills and everything right away. That's the part of Where we're actually the, you know, the tempter is trying to tell us, wow, you're not good at this. That, see, there's that judgment again. So no, you can learn anything. Just first determine the being. Who do I want to be? And then start to do. This is why I'm saying all you do right now is one action. Just take the next step. And if the next step is just to do some research, then let that be good enough. And then let the next step, one step. Don't, don't climb the whole mountain with one step.

Yes, absolutely. And but I think one of the traps for many women is actually around this area and mindset of perfectionism, that we feel like we need to get all the things sorted out before we take action. And I love this saying, is just take imperfect action, because in taking those steps, it will become clear whether you keep going or whether you need to change path. But we are called, you know, Joan of Arc says, act and God will act. And it's so important just to be taking those steps and moving the needle forward in our life every day. So I would say starting with prayer. Even if it's— if you can't get an hour before the Blessed Sacrament, 5 minutes with the Word of God every morning just starts.

And this conscious, conscious dedication of, of, of finding the connection. Are, are the goods you produce truly good? Are the services you provide— do they— do these services truly serve? And, and ask yourself why. How am I explaining that? Like, why are they truly good? And how do they truly serve? That's something, that's another thing that John Paul used to love to say is that's something that you get to decide. That's the free will that I teach my students to say, you have to answer, are the goods you produce truly good? Do the services you provide truly serve? And they say, well, define good. I'm saying you get to decide, you, that's your responsibility. Form yourself, Read the Bible. Are you going to stand in front of God and say, I got it, okay, go ahead?

Yes.

Right. But you get to decide, and then— but you carry the consequences for it. And that's, that's a, that's a tall order. But that's, that's this drama of life, if you wish, that we get. I mean, we do this in relationships. Is this a good relationship? Well, you decide, obviously. But you carry the consequences.

Yes, absolutely. So just tell me, in wrapping up, I guess, um, when you came to leave the Swiss Guard, you said that he was surprised. I'm interested, did you stay in touch? Did you let him know the direction your life took after that moment?

Kind of. Um, so I had opportunities after— when I got married, I went back and I introduced my in-laws to him. him. So I would just— once you're a guard, you always have access to some degree, you know, in the barracks. And of course, you know everybody. So I went back and I got into an audience just where there were other people. But then of course, he saw me and he came over and I introduced him to my— so he met my wife in Rome, but I met her in Rome. And so he knew that I had this girlfriend and I left because of her to America. But then I went back and I got married And I introduced my in-laws, and that was, you know, that was wonderful. And then, and then the other thing I remember, we went on Michelle's 30th birthday when she turned 30. On that day, May 14th, we went to Rome and we went to greet him, and he wished her a happy birthday on her 30th birthday.

How beautiful.

And, um, that was like 10 years after, after we left, or after she left. And then I was there when he died. Um, it's a long story, we don't have time to go into it, But that's a story for another time. But I happened to be there, uh, just arriving in Europe right when he passed away, and I, I was there within 24 hours of him dying. I was in front of him.

Such— I remember studying, writing one of my papers for the John Paul II Institute that weekend, um, and it just— yeah, and it just made the experience of writing my essay just so much more profound and deep. Yeah.

Yeah, that was That was an experience.

Yes. Wow. Well, look, Andreas, thank you so much. I could talk to you all day, actually. You're a person after my own heart. All of these topics around entrepreneurship and JP too. But can you tell me just the titles of 2 of your books and then where could people find you or these books if they'd like to purchase them?

Yeah. So I have a website called andreas-widmer.com.

I'll put that in the show notes.

Yeah. And this is the book I just finished, The Art of Principled Entrepreneurship. That's not quite as JP2. Well, it has all the JP2 theory in there, but it's a business book. This is the book, The Pope and the CEO, that I wrote about my experience and these business, these kinds of business. Actually, this is one of the pictures. Look, this is when I said goodbye to Oh, wow.

You're so young.

I know. That's what he said. This is why he was surprised. He's like, where are you going? You just got here. But to me, 2 years was an eternity. And for him, it was like, he just, you just got here, where are you going? And then I also, I'd love to share with everybody watching this, that the Gospel of Work is an 8-part video series I just developed. And I'll give you the link and we can maybe put that in there. It's free. You just register so, so we see how many people are seeing it and from where to get some indication. But, um, that is on siococenter.com.

But well, I will promote that because I, I think that's just fantastic because some of our work that we do, especially for women, sometimes it's, it's hidden work. It's unseen. It's difficult. It's monotonous. But this theology of work, I mean, just to have that different mindset, I think so much of the time if we can shift our mindset, It can change our whole experience.

Yeah, I'd love to share all that with you. I'm also doing, I mean, on social media, I promote things on Facebook and my favorite is really LinkedIn because that's sort of the most straightforward thing. But I also do, you know, all the others. I have a team who deals with that.

Fantastic. Well, I'll put all of the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us and God bless your beautiful work.

Thank you, Karen.

Well, I'm not sure about you, but that conversation was really insightful and I took I took so much away from it, and I hope and pray that you did too. If you'd like to find out more about his work, you can visit his website, andreaswidmer.com, and I will place the link in the show notes. Ladies, if you've liked this episode, can I ask you to do me a huge favor and head on over to the podcast platform that you're listening to and leave a review and a rating? This really helps to support the work of The Genius Podcast, and I would be most grateful. If this If this episode stirred something within your spirit where you are like, I just want to discover what my unique gifts are, I don't even know where I'm called to serve, let alone what my gifts are, then ladies, I'd love to invite you to come and join me in this next cohort of the Catholic Women's Masterclass. In this masterclass, we take you through a 4-month journey of restoration, renewal, and transformation. And part of this towards the end is really doing an inventory. And 2 of the modules at the end of this masterclass deal with exactly what we've been talking about in today's episode on the podcast, where we really take inventory of your gifts. We help you to unearth and discover the dreams and the desires of your heart and where the Lord is calling you to show up in contribution and service of those in your world. So ladies, if you would like to find out about that masterclass, you can visit the website, the masterclass www.geniusproject.co, or you can send me an email, karen@geniusproject.co, and I'd be very happy to either jump on a call or to respond to your question. This journey has been truly transformative for the women who have gone through the masterclass, and I would love for you to join us in our July intake. Until next week, ladies, have a beautiful week. God bless you, and start discovering your gifts.