The Too Tall Swiss Guard (A Christmas Story) with Swiss Guard Andreas Widmer and Michelle Widmer Schultz

Readers, let's make believe for a moment. Pretend you are about to become a Swiss Guard dedicated to protecting Pope Leo himself. Of course, you'll have to take an oath. Are you ready? Repeat parts of this oath after me. I swear I will faithfully, loyally, and honorably— Serve the Supreme Pontiff and his legitimate successors, and I dedicate myself to them with all my strength. I swear to observe all that the honor of position demands of me. There. Now, would you like to meet a real-life Swiss Guard? I think we're ready. Welcome to Cuddle Up, a Catholic storytime podcast. I'm Gracie Jagla, bringing you full read-alouds of your favorite books, read by the authors themselves. We'll share some of the most beautiful stories of our faith. So find a cozy spot and cuddle up. It's time to begin. Today's Christmas story is called The Too Tall Swiss Guard, written by Michelle Widmer Schultz and read by her husband, Swiss Guard Andreas. It is illustrated by Andrea Pavlat and published by OSV Kids. Michelle and Andreas, welcome to Cuddle Up! Thank you for coming today.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you very much. We're glad to be here.

Readers, can you say, hi, Michelle and Andreas? All right, now find a cozy spot and cuddle up because it's time to begin.

The Too Tall Swiss Guard by Michel Widmer Schultz. It was Christmas Eve and the newest Swiss Guard was on duty at the door of St. Peter's in Rome. His name was Andreas, and he was very tall. Sometimes he thought he was too tall. Andreas was proud to be one of the Swiss Guards who kept the Pope safe, but tonight he was very sad. This was his first Christmas away from home, and he missed his family. Andreas came from a small country called Switzerland. A few weeks before Christmas, he had traveled to the Vatican to start his new job. The airplane had a red tail and a white cross. The airplane seats were too small for his too-long legs. Every time the flight attendant whizzed by with the food cart, it banged his knees. He yelled, Aua! Andreas was very glad when the plane finally landed. The drill sergeant met Andreas and the other new Swiss Guards at the airport. He ordered them to climb into the back of a tiny Italian car. Andreas's knees scraped his chin as they drove. He gazed out the car window at the bustling city of Rome. He spotted ancient ruins and shimmering fountains. He was excited to be here, but it wasn't home. He felt a little sad. When they reached Vatican City, the recruits were shown to their new home in the Swiss Guard barracks. Things in Rome were very different from Andreas's village in the Swiss Alps. Every morning, he was jolted awake by car horns. When he tried to cross the street, he waited and waited, but the cars were too fast. The people spoke Italian, and Andreas struggled to understand them. People in Rome wave their hands and arms when they talk. When Andreas tried this, his too-long arms hit the guard next to him in, in the nose. The tailor fitted Andreas for his 2 types of uniforms. He grumbled about Andreas' too-long arms and legs, which used up more clothes than the uniforms of the other guards. The guard who managed the armory moaned that he had to make a too-long pole for Andreas's halberd. A carpenter grumpily built a too-long bed so Andreas could sleep without his too-long legs hanging off the end. Then the drill sergeant began special training for the new Swiss Guards. He noticed that Andreas was too tall, and he yelled about it whenever he could. Andreas felt too different and much too tall. Working day and night to learn how to protect the Pope was tough, but Andreas kept at it. He aced his Italian test. He learned to cross the street of Rome easily. He learned to march marvelously. He masters flipping up his halberd so it would not clobber him on his too-high head. On Christmas Eve, he bumped into the drill sergeant.

Soldier!

yelled the drill sergeant. You will guard the door of St. Peter's tonight. The guard who should have been on duty is sick. Andreas was shocked. Working? Tonight? On Christmas Eve? This ruined his plans to celebrate. Each of the guards was allowed to make one phone call home for Christmas Eve. They took turns using an old-fashioned phone in the dining hall. When it was Andreas's turn, he wished his parents a Merry Christmas. In the background, he could hear the laughter of his 5 brothers and sisters. He knew they were eating Swiss Christmas cookies and clinking their glasses full of sparkling wine. Andreas's mother was sad that her youngest son was far away on Christmas. She began crying. This made Andreas want to cry too, but he was determined to be brave. He didn't want the other guards to see him cry, so he hid his tears and said, I love you, Mom, before he hung up. That night, Andreas reported for duty outside the door of St. Peter's Basilica. His post was tiny and dark, with only a desk and a lamp. It was very quiet. He thought about his family celebrating Christmas without him. He also thought of all the other guards having Christmas party. He would be working here alone for hours. He felt so sad that he began to cry. Suddenly, his walkie-talkie squawked, Soldier, the Pope is coming out to your door! Andreas quickly wiped away his tears and straightened his uniform. He unlocked the huge door and stepped back. After a moment, the door swung open. There stood Pope John Paul II. The Pope smiled. Hello, you're new. What's your name? Andreas, replied the tall young Swiss Guard. The Pope stepped forward to shake Andreas's hand. Then he saw the tears. Why? Of course, this must be your first Christmas away from home. This made Andreas cry a little more. The Pope squeezed his hand. I want to thank you, Andreas, for the sacrifices you have made to work here. I am so glad that you will be guarding me. I will pray for you during Mass tonight. Suddenly, a pigeon flew in through the large door. Andreas, the Pope whispered, that pigeon always He always sneaks in and sits on the head of that statue of a horse. Can you reach him and set him free? Andreas marched over. He stood on his tippy toes and was just able to reach the pigeon. He took it to a window and set it free. The Pope smiled at Andreas. God made you so wonderfully tall! It was very quiet after the Pope left. But something had changed. Andreas did not feel sad anymore. The Pope's kindness had filled him with joy. Andreas thought, maybe I'm not too tall. Maybe God made me exactly the way he wanted me to be. All night, as he stood on duty, he felt So wonderfully tall.

What a delight of a book and a joy to have you both here. Thank you for coming. We love to have married couples on. Andreas, you were our first Swiss Guard. And so Andreas, you were a real-life Swiss Guard and you're the inspiration for this story. And Michelle, who is the author of this book, is also your lovely wife. And she was so good to let you read the book per my request so all of our readers could hear your accent. She is the one behind this beautiful story. So, thank you both.

Thank you. We loved it. I loved hearing his voice. He's told that story so many times, and it's nice to hear his— but I don't think you ever read it, actually.

No, I haven't. That's so interesting. It was a big first.

It was really a treat for us too.

I mean, I read it myself, but I never read it out loud for anybody.

So, it's a treat for us as well.

So, Michelle, you said you've heard him tell that story a lot of times. Is that kind of the famous story that he tells of his time as a Swiss Guard? Did you know right away when you were going to write a children's book that that was the moment you were going to focus on?

Yes. Yes. That, um, that story was a key story from the beginning. And it's, you know, it's mostly a true story. Um, it was the, you know, the, the day that he met Pope John Paul II for the first time. And it was beautiful because of course he met him in a way that he truly saw what Pope John Paul was like, you know.

That story, that compliment at the end, is that the exact words that he used? God made you so wonderfully tall?

No. So what she refers to, Michelle, is the actual interaction of him, of me being very sad, of me calling home, of me having to go to work, and then of him coming out and noticing. and then saying, I'm going to celebrate Mass for you, I'm going to pray for you. Up to there, the story is what is happening and what has happened and what I tell. From there on, we tried to— Michelle took some artistic license. Yeah, well, you explain, but she was trying to make some points. Yeah, right.

So of course, Andreas is extremely tall. He's 6'9. And yeah, and he's, you know, everyone comments that's, you know, his life.

The Pope did know that. That was his tallest guard, so he often made light or fun of that.

And he would make jokes and he would have other people stand next to Andreas and sort of joke about it in a kind way, in a joyful way. But so the story was really, yeah, it was just so important. And it's funny because so many times I heard it, but it always reached my heart. You know, I've heard it so many times, but I can hear it again and again. Of course, I'm biased because I love him and he's my husband. But it just, and I would see tears in people's eyes whenever he was telling the story, especially mothers, of course, especially mothers, because we can't imagine being away from our child on Christmas Eve.

Michelle, I love the way that you added to it and what you did with the bird and a compliment like that, because even though it's your artistic license, I think that's something really true about John Paul II from what I've heard, that he just, he noticed the specialness in other people and really made a point to bring that out in them and celebrate that. And I found it after reading this book, I found I was going through my days and trying to compliment my kids in such a way that he would have done and saying to my kids, you know, Sophia, you are so wonderfully helpful, or Josie, God made you so specially something. It's just, there's a real beauty to the way that you made that story come together. And Andreas, Just one thing that sticks out to me is the way that John Paul II noticed how you were feeling in that moment, because I imagine he was very busy all the time, and he encountered an abundance of people. He was constantly encountering people. And so just to hear— and I think maybe, Michelle, that's why you said people have tears in their eyes when you share that story, because it's a testament to how, in the busyness of his life, he noticed the tiniest things about other people.

Mm-hmm.

And that is, I think, one of the things that we love about him.

Yeah.

Andreas, when you think about all of your time with him, obviously this moment sticks out to you, the story that you've written. Do you have any other impressions of him or specific memories of him or things that we might not hear in a biography, but you got to observe?

Yeah. I mean, he, I like to describe him as the most authentically human person I ever met. And, you know, when people think of a saint, you know, I had this privilege to work with a saint, but he would immediately, I think if he were here, would say, well, all of us have known saints. It's just the church declares certain saints. And he wanted to declare more to show us all that we were made to be saints. Being a saint is not that hard. It's like you have everything you need to become a saint. And so he wanted to update that image that we have. A saint is not somebody who doesn't make any noise when they walk and they you know, and they're always in a perfectly prayerful attitude and everything. No, saints are fully alive human beings. It's our goal, anybody who's listening, it doesn't matter how young, how old you are, the goal of your life is to become a saint. And you're meant to be a saint. So just like a flower is meant to blossom and show the beauty that God put into that plant, we are supposed to blossom into our individual capacity. And so that's something that he was very interested interested in and was proclaiming, that whole idea of how he approached, how he lived in the moment. And, you know, there's so many times where I see, Shelley and I, we both had the opportunity. Michelle also met him. And, you know, when we feel like, well, he's just, you know, even if he gives a talk, he's just speaking to us. Like there's people who go through in the Philippines or in Canada, World Youth Day, they say, well, I, you know, I was inspired even though I was one of 5 million people there. What he said is that the way he prepares his interactions with people is that before he meets people or in the morning or before he goes into a big speech or a big hall, he has a simple prayer and says, God, you love everybody that I'm going to meet so much because without your love, they would not exist. So, the fact that somebody's alive means you love them. And Lord, I'm asking only for one gift, and that is to see that person I'm meeting with your eyes. with your love. And so grant me that, Holy Spirit. And, you know, that is a gift, I think, that is never refused because it is a good and it is a selfless thing to ask. And I think that's his recipe to reaching so many souls. And so try it, anybody listening, try this the next time. Try it to speak to somebody before you meet them or see them. Say, Lord, let me see them with your love. And then you will interact with them like that. And I think that's one of the key things. I've seen him deal with ill people, homeless people, gypsies. I was there when he met President Reagan. I was there when he met Mother Teresa. I saw all of these things, and he treated everybody the same because of that.

Andreas, that is so remarkable to be able to hear the accounts that you had, and it must have just changed your life to be close to him. Shelley, I was curious, and then Andreas answered it for me, whether you had met John Paul II before, and you've met him as well. Can you tell me what that was like for you?

Well, I do remember clearly the first time I met him, met him was actually on Easter of 1988, and it was just about 2 months after I had met Andreas, and, um, and he was able to They get me a ticket at a Mass and I received communion from him. And I just remember that even receiving communion from him, which was of course an incredible blessing, um, I really, you know, he, he looks into your eyes, you know, and he has these beautiful gray blue eyes and he is totally serious and, you know, totally believing in everything that he is saying and doing. And that was the impression that I got from him. Of complete faith in, in what he was doing and what we all believe in as Catholics. Um, and then several, so over the years I met him several times, uh, once on my 30th birthday, and then another time Andreas was able to arrange for my parents to, to be in an audience with him. And it was just beautiful because you really, my, he blessed my mother and focused on her.

Mm-hmm.

It's, you know, he just knew. He knew that the mother was the most important person there. And, uh, and it was just— my father actually is not Catholic, he is Protestant, but he actually was there as well and was completely thrilled, you know, and with the fact that he had been able to meet, uh, Pope John Paul II.

We, we went, so We met with him when we were still there, of course, when I was still in the Guards. But then when you leave the Guards, you never leave, leave the Guards because once you have that oath, you're a part of it. But once I didn't do active service anymore, we would keep going back. I go now, I go back all the time. And back then we would go back. And so that's how I surprised Michelle When her parents came to Europe for the first time, that we had an audience with the Pope and he said hello to them. And he, of course, knew who I was. And so it was a—

He was just trying to get brownie points with me.

Yeah.

That is the way to do it.

Trying to impress the mother-in-law. And it worked.

It worked.

I can't see how it wouldn't have worked.

My mom is Mexican. Yeah. So you can imagine, you know, it's a faith-filled country. Yeah.

Oh, she's wonderful. Yeah.

She absolutely loved it. It was a beautiful experience.

And then another time, And this time we did it so that Michelle, on her 30th birthday, uh, John Paul, we, we met John Paul and he blessed her. And that was a beautiful thing.

So it sounds like you were dating or at least knew each other while you were in the Guard. Can you tell the how you met story and, and what that timeline was?

Oh, I was a student, uh, on my junior year abroad in Rome. Um, and I was an RA and I had already been there for 6 months when, um, when a friend of mine introduced me to, um, to the Swiss Guard. And they just happened to, you know, we, I was 20 years old and they just happened to invite a bunch of us out for dinner to, for fondue, for Swiss fondue. There was a place about 2 blocks away from the Vatican and it's still there. We actually celebrated our, which anniversary was it? Oh, we're knocked down.

We're knocked down. Our 30-something anniversary.

Swiss fondue. Is that chocolate or cheese or what's Swiss fondue?

Cheese. Cheese. Yeah. It's cheese. Uh, and so we met over Swiss fondue.

Our anniversary is February 5th.

Uh, don't tell any—

No, no, no. I'm not going there. No, it's just because it's fondue weather, you know, fondue, cheese fondue is a winter thing. So, yes, we had it in February. So, yeah.

So I know that Swiss Guard, to join the Swiss Guard, I believe you have to be single. Are you allowed to date when you're a Swiss Guard or did you have to wait until you were out?

No, you're allowed to date. You're even allowed to marry. There are circumstances, I mean, it's barracks and so there needs to be space. And yeah, you're allowed to date. There's curfew and there's times where you're allowed to go and not to go out. And there's restrictions of far, different times, how far you're allowed to go away from the barracks depending on what's going on. And so as long as you keep all the rules, yeah, you have some free time. It's not a lot, but you you have free time. And we met during that free time. And then, but, you know, we weren't actually together in Rome for all that long. We met in February and she left in the beginning of May to go back to the United States.

It was just 3 months.

Yeah.

But that was enough.

It was already towards the— yeah. I mean, it was love at first sight. I mean, for both of us.

And I have to say that the thing is, I didn't speak English at the time. And so we spoke mostly Italian and French together.

Michelle could already speak those languages. And that's how—

Yeah, so Michelle is Hispanic.

And so I speak Spanish already, and which made it, uh, you know, and then studied French throughout high school and college and then studied Italian in Italy, you know. So it's all Romance languages, which are— and so once you've learned one, the next is a little bit easier and a little bit easier. So, um, yes. And it's funny because for a long time I teased him that he really did speak English. And I said, that's not true. You spoke English.

How easy you forget.

And then a few years ago, he digitized all of our wedding videos. And I heard his little speech that he gave at the toast. And I thought, wow, his English— he really did speak great English. That's a foreigner.

He didn't know what he was saying.

I know, it was so funny. But I was like, okay, I believe you now.

Yeah.

So it's good to have video evidence, just, you know.

Michelle, were you surprised or was your family surprised that here you went over just to study a few months, and now you're caught up in this totally different world and with someone that you didn't expect. What was that like?

Definitely. I think, yeah, I think my parents were worried.

Okay.

Because, um, you know, they just didn't know who is— what is— you know, they knew this was what the Swiss Guard was, but for them it was just a military, you know.

Sure.

And, um, and of course my mom was, as a, as a, um, an overprotective Mexican mother, you know, who keeps her little chicks very close to her, she was terrified about the thought of me moving to Switzerland, you know, and never coming So actually, it's interesting because he, uh, it sort of took me a while to realize it, but Andreas did make a sacrifice early on in our relationship that he saw how attached I was to my family. And he did sort of what true Swiss mercenaries do, that he went, he decided he would come here to the United States so that I could actually be in my own environment. Um, and I think it was a great decision for us.

Love is wanting the good of the other. And as a husband, you ought to want the good of your wife. And so your first priority is that she's happy and taken care of and well. And that's just much better for her and the environment here. I saw that right away.

Well, and we know from the book that you also were very close to your family and you can see what a sacrifice that is, even seeing you just calling home and, and how much your mom loves you and misses you and all of your siblings there too. It's wonderful that you have 2 families that you're both so close to, but difficult when those families are separated by an ocean.

Especially now they're all getting older. I was just seeing my mom is 91 years old now. And Michelle's mom lives with us. She's 84. And so having the 2 moms that we now take care of, I have other siblings in Switzerland. So, but I still, I go back 3 or 4 times a year. I go to Switzerland to just, you know, now especially to go be with her. And I call mom. my mother pretty much every day. And then we love Michelle's mom, lives with, is an integral part of our family. I mean, she, we only, you know, we eat with her every day and, and she's like, she's, she's the heart of our family.

Yeah. Oh, and his family in Switzerland is beautiful. I mean, I'm part of the family, of course, now too. And, um, it's, yeah, all of our nieces, we have, went to like 13 nieces and nephews over there. And then now they're all having children and It's just, you know, it's huge whenever there's a family reunion.

We did live in Europe for a couple of years, uh, during the '90s. And, and that also, then Michelle speaks, she, she can completely understand my language now, my dialect, and which is very difficult. But Shelley is, is a, is a natural at languages. And so that's, that all worked out very well. And so we, we have a very balanced, we, We are in Rome a lot, in Switzerland a lot, and then of course we visit Mexico a lot, but our heart is in the United States.

You're very well traveled. What is it that you do in the United States now, both of you?

So we actually, the older we get, the younger we get, the more we work together. We run a little business together with writing and books and talking and coaching. We coach business people, but also we work with a lot of married couples and things to sort of teach how to have a successful faith-based marriage or with children and so on. And we do a lot of talks, Catholic events, but also business events and so on. And then we also teach a class together. I'm a professor at the Catholic University of America. I teach business. And one class, Michelle being an artist and I'm being an entrepreneur, I teach entrepreneurship. We teach a class together about ideation, And she teaches students how to visually mind map and visual note-taking.

Sketchnoting.

And then I teach them the ideation. And so together we come up with sustainable solutions for social problems and like business solutions. And so we have a lot of fun. We teach that every semester.

Yeah, we've been teaching that now for almost 6 years, I think. Yeah. And we actually taught it in Rome one year, which was beautiful. And it really has morphed. So originally it was quite a bit of drawing. We were really trying to find a way to combine art and business because everything is connected.

Yeah.

Art and business and faith, really. Yeah. And eventually we've settled on sketchnoting. And I have to say, the kids love it. And I'm always amazed. They're just incredible. I'm amazed at how they thrive and how they, the work that they come up with in the class.

We even have some ideas to offer this to adults and to maybe have some breakout groups. I don't know whether it would be best done online or physically somewhere, but Every time we tell people about this class, they're saying, hey, I want to take this class.

And so—

I'm thinking that right now.

Yeah, we're very open to that because we really want to be in touch with people. And this is where we flourish, to do this kind of thing.

Yeah, we do work well together. We're a good team.

You're the perfect example, really, in so many ways of what a good Catholic marriage should be, because it's really 2 become one. And I see the 2 in you. You have these different specialties and different things that you're good at and that you love. But how easily you fit that into One, just how everything you do is integrated together and you don't lose any of your individuality, but you're, but you're so close and so unified that it's as if you're one person.

It's complementarity. Michelle is 5'2. I'm 6'9.

Oh my goodness.

She's sitting on a pillow right now. I am.

I'm sitting on a pillow.

And I'm telling you, that's, that's— see, see, one of the things that Catholicism shows so beautifully God made the world complementary. Being complementary, being equal doesn't mean being the same. We completely, we complement. She's much more of a detailed person. If you need to plan something, let her plan it, not me, because I'm all over the place.

But if you need to get something done, then you ask him. And that's why we're such a great combination, because he doesn't allow perfection To stand in my way.

Otherwise, I would never, I would never finish anything because she's the one who can be perfect. I'm not. And so together, we're a good compromise. But of course, that has friction and the process is burdensome sometimes. But I think to understand marriage as complementarity, then you start to appreciate the other person, what they bring to you is something you don't have, which is exactly the The genius of a man and the genius of a woman together is strong, is different, it's, but it's stronger together.

Oh, so many wonderful things that you're saying right now. I could just think about these for a long time. So big height difference between the two of you and Andreas, 6'9. That was a big question that I had. And I love how Michelle used the book to pinpoint some of the little idiosyncrasies or things that might make being tall inconvenient that you hadn't thought about. And I'm sure Michelle sees them being married to you, things about how do you fit on the bed? And how do you go in an airplane when airplanes are uncomfortable, even for smaller sized people? And so that was really well done, how, how you saw those things all the way through the book. Andreas, what is there something, what do you think is one of the greatest inconveniences and one of the biggest perks for being as tall as you are?

It's the same. It's the same thing.

What is it?

I see everything. Like I, if I go to a concert or I'm in church, I have people changing seats when I go to church.

It happened today, actually.

Just, we go to church and I sit down, the people behind me just move. But that also means I always see what's going on in the front. And so that's a benefit, but it also makes me horrible. It feels, makes me feel horrible that if I'm standing in front of you, you're not seeing anything anymore. Right. And that's, that makes me very self-conscious, but it also, you know, there's both, there's a both end. But it also makes me very comfortable that I usually know what's going on. And like Shelley would always say, tell me what's going on.

Yeah.

And I can tell—

She's the one moving away from you if she's sitting behind you.

And of course, as a bodyguard, that was a huge advantage because he could see everything. He could scan everything.

That's why they like the Swiss guards so tall. That's one of the old reasons why you want tall guards so that they have crowd control. They can see what's going on. It's also they have eye contact over everybody else. else when something happens.

I had never thought of that before. And it's interesting that that's the thing that you mentioned because I have a really tall brother. He's not as tall as you, but he's like 6'6. And I remember even from the time he was a teenager, he was very tall. And we would go places like Disney World or to a parade and he's crouching and hunching himself uncomfortably because he would feel so bad that all the little kids behind him, you feel like you're ruining the view of everybody else just by your physical presence. But you're right. It's also a really great protection, like for the Holy Family. Exactly.

Everything, I teach this to my students at the Bush School. It's the intro course to business. Everybody starts a business in our school. Everybody. It doesn't matter what you study in business. You start a business when you first come. And I teach that class and I show everybody that the first thing we're going to do when you come to our school is I'm going to help you find your talent. Meaning, what has God given you that allows you to create value for others? Because if you figure that out, and then a talent is something you don't, you didn't do anything to get it. You don't, you know, you just have it like me being tall. We are inside like this as well so that you just, you're born with it. And then when you know what your talent is, then you get skills to create value for others with that talent. And that's the trick. That's how you make prosperity. That's how you make a, you know, a career. And so I think that's And I tell people that, think of what has annoyed you about yourself and what you think is your weakness, because every coin has 2 sides. I have ADD and dyslexia, and I show a lot of the kids, and this is sort of where Michelle comes from also by saying too tall. You can take anything that you look at as a negative.

Yes.

And God doesn't— if it's a natural thing, you can turn it and it'll have something good on the other So I think that my success in business, I was very blessed in helping start some really, or grow some really cool companies in the software industry that were very successful. And I think a part of it has to do with my gift of ADD that I can manage chaos. Like it doesn't bother me. Like I can do 50 things at the same time. On the other hand, my pattern recognition because of dyslexia, I have to look at the world in a different way. And I think that helps me with marketing, with sales, that I notice stuff that other people don't. And I can point that out. I'm trying to teach our students to find the both end, like the others have turned the coin. Tell me what you think has burdened you all your life, and then let's turn it together and see what there is, which is actually a gift.

What a very good question you just mentioned there, not only for college students, but for any of our young readers. I think what you said was, what is a natural talent that God has given you? you and use that as the jumping off point. I'm curious what you would say though to some of our readers because you might get the response, well, I'm not good at anything because when you're young, certain talents stick out very obviously. And you might have someone in the class who you know is very naturally athletic or very naturally artistic and you might feel like you're kind of in the middle of a bunch of things. What would you say to those kids?

Well, those are actually special talents. And I work, look, I work, I have 230 students per semester and again, that's where my ADD helps. To manage that and to have a personal kind of personal relationship with them all. What you have to look at there is there are some talents that are immediately transactional, meaning if you were musical, you can play music right away. But if you have a talent like my talents have to do with rallying people together, ideation, bringing something new to fruition and relation, I'm very relational. I have empathy. I can work in a group. So I'm in a sense a natural born leader. But you know what? Leadership is something that takes like, that's like wine. It has to get older. It has to get experience to mature. And so it's difficult to be a leader right off and people won't pay you for that right away. But then you have to go around to first collect the experiences to come to fruition, right? And so if somebody has math or like is naturally good with numbers, you can be an accountant when you come out of college. Bam! And just get get value right away. But if you're more into entrepreneurship and management, like what I would be, and I'm I don't have the proclivity towards numbers at all, that takes longer to mature. But that doesn't you know that doesn't mean it's not a talent. It's just different talents. It's like different flowers grow bloom at different times. And then when I work with the students who have this longer term incubation time, let's say for the talent. talent. I work with them on a career plan that says it's like bases at baseball. You need to go to this and collect this and this and this and this, which continues your education because college isn't going to make you a CEO right away, but you need some experience with it. And I can help, you know, we can visualize that.

So before we kind of wrap up our interview here, I wanted to ask one more question about Pope John Paul II because it's hard not to ask about him. He He was as remarkable as anyone comes. I recently watched an interview with a current Swiss Guard, and he was saying that ever since Pope Leo was chosen, things have really picked up and everything has been much faster paced for the Swiss Guards because, as he said, the Pope sets the pace and the Swiss Guards match it. And at the end of Pope Francis's life, he wasn't doing as much as Pope Leo is able to do right now. And as far as setting the pace, I don't think there's ever been a Pope who has visited more countries and been more of a mover than John Paul II. So can you tell us maybe a little bit about one place that you visit? I mean, you mentioned a bunch right off the bat about meeting President Reagan and Mother Teresa. Can you talk about maybe the pace that he set or something that you followed him to that was really amazing for you?

So first off, Pope Leo reminds me a lot of John Paul II, even visually.

I think, I think that too.

Yeah. And with his temperament, um, But of course, allow each Pope to be himself. It's like getting a new pastor in your parish. Let them be themselves. Let the Pope be who he is. Grace builds on nature, right? But the pace is also, of course, in the beginning, Francis had much more of a crazy schedule than he had at the end.

I mean, it's like anybody.

Yes, of course. John Paul had the same. I was there at the height of his energy, in a sense, in the '80s, right before the Iron Curtain fell. And I've seen what he did, which truly still inspires me. John Paul II had as much eagerness at work than he did at leisure. Like he planned his leisure. He would, all the, you know, before it would be unheard of to have concerts. You know, we just recently had a concert where Pope Leo was hearing Andrea Bocelli and all these people.

Wasn't it Pope Leo?

Yeah, and Michael Bublé. And so, and, uh, that was Jean-Paul who started that. And that was because he was always into the arts. He also had poetry readings, he had theater, he had philosophers come and, and do things. And that's, that was his free time. And he planned it. He would also plan ski trips, hiking. He had a pool, so he, he would regularly go swim and things like that. And it so inspired me that, are you planning your free time as much as you're planning your work life? And because recreation, Shelly and I are just working on doing good Sabbath, like being good. You actually praise God, have joy in creation, and have peace, regeneration during the Sabbath. And I think— That takes planning.

It does.

But most people don't plan, but John Paul did. And I was the beneficiary of this often because I was, we still go with him, whatever he does. And you could see how he planned for that. He even, you know, something people probably don't know is that when I was there, there was a, I don't know what number of his primary school school reunion. And he's like, well, I'd like to go see my friends in whatever, you know, in Poland that I went to primary school with because many of them have passed away already. And so he'd like to go to Poland, but the Secretary of State is like, no, it's still, I mean, that's just not, no.

Can you imagine someone says no to the Pope?

Oh, people say no to the Pope all the time. Then he says, okay. And he writes to them and said, look, I will so miss you, but I understand I can't be there. But here's the deal. If you come to Rome, I will hold the high school reunion in my apartment, like in my elementary school, at my dining room table, because I can't go out. Like, if you come here, I can do it. And they did.

And they did?

Oh, yeah. There's not many. I mean, Guadalupe, I don't know, it's a small little town. I don't know, there must have been 10 or 12 of them.

And he threw a meal.

And they all showed up.

Oh my goodness.

There's so many stories about him.

There's all kinds of stories like that. You know, this intentionality of life, and you don't have to, it's not like this highfalutin major things, but something small like that, of just like saying, you know, this is important to me, and therefore I'm going Just try. If you don't try, you don't know how God would bless it. And if you try and it doesn't work, then say, okay, your will be done. I'll do that and go with it. But most people give up before you even give it a good try.

Going back quickly to talents and vocation, I wanted to just say something about the illustrator of the book, Andrea Pavlitt. So Andrea is actually one of my former homeschool students, and she became a professional illustrator. But I believe that sometimes some of our talent is not necessarily always something that we do, but it's to reflect a light onto others.

Mm-hmm.

And I knew when we finally decided to create the book, I knew that I wanted her to illustrate it, and she ended up being able to do it. And I was so thrilled with the work that she did. It was all done in watercolor.

That's a very, you know, that's one of Michelle's traits also of shining the light on others, which she often does with me to let me—

I'm not, you know, it's not like I'm like shining, you know, it's the way that we are together.

But she could— Michelle is an artist herself and she's very good at drawing and at doing this. And she could have done this herself, but she, for various reasons and also rational, she said, no, I think Andrea is young and she needed— it would be great for her to have this first book under her belt, and she would own, and Michelle also likes her style. And I think that was a very, that was an example of a beautiful gesture to let a young artist do this. And we are over the moon happy with the book.

You two are such a beautiful and incredible witness. And it's no surprise that you had encounters with John Paul II because it shines so much through the two of you, everything that you've learned together. And not just John Paul II, because John Paul II was just great because he is such a wonderful reflection of Jesus, and Jesus is so much in you, your marriage, and in you two individually. And we're so grateful that you came on to talk to us today because there have been many, many things that you said that I'm going to keep thinking about for days to come now, and I'm sure our readers will too. Thank you very much for coming on and being a part of this. We love you both.

Thank you, Gracie. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you so much for the opportunity. God bless you and your family.

And we'd love to hear from people. Michelle put a— we have a social media page and then also a website, Where you can reach us. We'd love to be in touch with people to hear how they're doing.

I'll put those in the show notes so that our readers know how to get right to you if they'd like to.

That sounds great.

Thank you so much. And with that, we will end our time together in prayer. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Until next time, God bless you always.