Watches & Wonders 2021

Foreign.

Welcome to Prodigal Versiflage. We're delighted to have you with us. This is the podcast from the same morons who brought you the Prodigal Guide. So these are audio ramblings around the world of high end watches, cars and gadgets. I'm Andrew Carrier and this week I'm joined by the co founder of the Prodigal Guide, Eric Drossen. And we're going to chew over the many, many new watch announcements that came out of the Watches and Wonders show that ran from the 7th to the 13th of April. I hope you enjoy the show. If you do, please leave us a comment and let us know what you thought. This is an experiment at this stage, but if you like it, we're happy to do more. With that said, let's dive into the persiflage. Okay, so Eric, let's, let's get straight into this stuff. We've got a lot to cover. Why don't we wander over to the Patek Philippe stand to start off with? Let's start with one of the big names and the big news from Patek Philippe. After all the excitement a few weeks ago when the brand announced that it had discontinued the Jumbo, the reference 5711, the iconic Nautilus, the big news from Patek Philippe, from Watches and wonders is the 5711 is revived. It's revived.

Sorry, I have trouble understanding that. How can it be revived before it was ever truly dead?

Well, because this is the special run out edition and my friend, there are some major, major differences to the new model. Are you ready?

Here we go.

Okay, so first of all, there's a new green dial. And that's it. That's it.

No, wait, wait. Sorry. You're taking the piss, right? What exactly happened between the Hulk? It's dead, but it's alive and it's green. Is it the Hulk or what's happening?

There's a green dial. What can I tell you, Andrew?

Is this proof of the lack of imagination going on at Patek Philippe right now? Because, you know, the owner, Stern, was very big about why he wanted to kill the Nautilus. He felt it was defining the brand to too large a degree. So what's this?

Well, okay, to be fair, this is the run out edition, which he did mention when he said he was going to discontinue this model. He said there'd be one last, you know, run out edition. I think they're only going to make it for a year. But it was, I mean, I certainly Felt like there was just not much to this. You would have expected something a bit more than a, than a different color dial.

On the other hand, Andrew, do we think that possibly Patek, knowing that they can get away with something like this and they'll sell every single one of them and if they could, a hundred times over, does it matter? I mean, what do we think?

Well, it matters from a watch lovers perspective. I think just because it shows, I don't know, just a complete lack of imagination. I mean, you know, they could have kept making the, the Jumbo for another 20 years in its blue dialed format. Selling them was never the problem. Right, but I just think if you are going to go to the trouble of creating this run out edition, maybe something a bit different than just a different green dial. But.

Well, listen, I mean, Andrew, you know, in the time that we spoke about this beforehand, the other thing that's come to light is that Stern has also rethought his whole proposition about providing, what is it called? Letter from the Archives. You know, it's just kind of proof of authenticity of their pieces. And he said that they stopped providing it for watches before certain dates, something like this, and he actually went back on that as well. So I think we're not only finding that the models themselves are being reversed as well, but maybe some of the bigger lines that the boss of the company's been spouting, I don't know, change your heart.

Well, it's definitely a disappointment. Although, God only imagine how much these things are going to be worth. They're only going to make a year. I can't imagine they're going to make more than a couple of hundred.

Baby, listen. And you know, as much as everybody keeps crowing about, you know, the Hulk when it comes to Rolex, well, that's the kind of distasteful, large overbearing sort of thing that Rolex would do. This is very tasty. I've seen photographs that people have taken with it on the wrist, Andrew. It's pretty sumptuous. It's a lot more discreet than people give it credit for.

Oh yeah, no, absolutely. It's lovely. It's lovely looking. I mean, I think all things considered, I'd probably, you know, forget the rarity factor and forget the sort of collectability of the fact that it's a run out edition. I would probably still opt for the blue if I, you know, if I was, if I was buying one. This is all theoretical because neither one of us are ever going to get close to owning one of these they're not for human wrists, but I'd probably still go for the blue. But the green's nice. It is nice.

It is. Look very pleasant stuff. Okay. But this is Unobtainium and I think you wanted to move us to something from IWC Phoenix, if I'm not mistaken, Andrew.

Yeah.

Okay, let's leave.

Let's leave Patek Philippe and wander over to the IWC stand. So two things caught my eye this year from iwc. The first is the Big Pilots. The Big Pilots. Iconic watch from iwc. Iconic watch from any brand really. It's one of the, the all time great instantly recognizable designs. The big. The news about the big pilots is it's not big anymore. No, no, no. It's medium sized pilots now.

What's happening? It's gone through its eyes.

So they've got, they've taken it down from 46 to 43 I think and they've made some other changes. Of course they can't use the same movement so there's no, that, that wonderful eight day power reserve is gone. So there's no power reserve indicator. And they've also taken the date window off the dial and now you've just got a sort of medium large, ish sized big pilots and all right. But I just look at it, I think it just makes me really sad. I think there are, you know, there are some watches that you don't mess with and the Big Pilots is one of them. Incidentally. I want to hear what you think, but just give me a sec, I just want to finish this thought. You know, on the whole, I'm all for the downsizing of most watch models. They've all gone too big and I would encourage any watch brand to look at downsizing their models. But the Big Pilot is perhaps the only model where that wouldn't apply. For me, part of its inherent appeal is the fact that it's freaking huge. And frankly part of its appeal is that most people can't carry it off, can't wear it, it's just too big. So it's for the reserved few who can. And that's what was always so special about the big pilots. But now, you know, it's as if Tim Cook's running IWC now. There's a big pilot of every size to fit every pocket.

All right. And Andrew, sorry, just to make up on that, it's actually called the Medium Big Pilot.

No, no, no, no, no, I'm joking, I'm joking. I call it that. It's a good idea though. No, it's called the Big Pilot. It's called the Big Pilot 43.

The Big Pilot 43. All right, look, so a couple of thoughts swing to mind. The first is that I've had a hate, hate relationship with the Big P. God knows how long now. It's simply never been anything that I would ever consider and I think it's so beyond the pale for anybody to actually successfully carry off that it's almost like a museum piece. You'd love to look at one and say, look daddy. That's how the big watches needed to be in the cockpit of a fighter plane so you could tell what time it was before as they shot your ass off, as you went back to Calais or Dover or whatever it was. I'm, I'm. But I do agree with you that it is a selling out. Do it right, make it big, make it proud and keep it that way.

Yeah, yeah.

Anything less than that, indeed, Andrew means don't call it a Big Pilots anymore. Just stop, stop the proposition or separate the two offers. Find some other way of doing it.

It's also sad that it's not. They haven't just downsized it, they've taken some of the inherent value out of it in terms of the mechanics as well. You know, without the eight day power reserve, which to me was always one of the big selling points of the watch, it just becomes much closer to a pretty, you know, ordinary looking watch.

And by the way, Andrew, you and I have talked about this beforehand. In the past we were huge admirers of previous generation IWC Doppel Chronos and just simple Chronos. Right?

Yeah.

Great tool watches. Beautiful, unfettered. They're the right size, the right weight, the right look, the right balance of things. So yeah, as much as I despise the big pilots, I think something like a downsized big pilots is even sillier. Sold.

Yeah, agreed. Now on the other hand, they did, they did downsizing elsewhere in the range, which I will congratulate IWC on. They took their, their pilots Chrono and downsized that. So that's now available as a 41 millimeter. A little ludicrous that we're talking about a 41 mil watch as a downsized version. But still, I mean, I think you and I have talked about this before. To me, 40 mils, I. E. You know, the classic size of a, of a Rolex sports watch is about the perfect size for a sports watch, I think of any.

Yeah, I, I, yeah, I mean so, so for me, slightly smaller wrist than yours. 36 to 39 is magic. I can just about pull off 40. Anything beyond that I can't do. But clearly you can.

You wouldn't pan arriving. So these new Chronos from IWC come close to that. They sized in at 41 now, which I, which I think is nice. It's nice to see them going, going back to more wearable proportions. So that's great. Ish. Ish. Okay, so, okay, so let's, let's, let's leave iwc, go across the hall to Tudor. Tudor relaunched their Black Bay Chrono this year.

Yes.

And I have to say it's a success, or at least it's significantly nicer than the previous model. The previous model was no slouch, but what they've done. Okay. In addition to tidying up the dial a little bit, the big thing is that they've made the case slimmer. And God knows there's not a Tudor on earth that doesn't need a slimmer case because that's always when you realize that you're dealing with a Tudor and not a Rolex, is when you put it on its side and look how tall the case is on your wrist. And I guess that just, you know, speaks to the, to the movements that they're using inside there. But this one does have a slimmer case than the previous one. And generally speaking, it's just a really, really nice, nice looking chrono now. So congratulations to Tudor on that one.

So look, I could not agree with you more. You know, again, Andrew, I think a lot of this stuff is about where you're coming into the market, you know, for something like the Nautilus. The aficionados will go gaga over a green dial. Those who worship it but can never afford it will say all hell, we've got a different variant and something that we can, we can look up to for iwc. It's a bit like. Would you like it smaller, sir? Fine, we'll pass on that. But Tudor seems to go from strength to strength. They get better. And part of me believes that it's actually Rolex unleashing them a little bit. We've always talked about this. Rolex deliberately keeps Tudor under its fricking heel. It never wants Tudor to ever be what it was before, which in some ways was a trailblazer. And I know this because I've got a big block Tudor. And the Tudor chronograph was the first automatic chronograph in both Tudor and Rolex ranges. Okay, fast forward. We're at the Black Bay Chrono. And although you've got snowflake hands, but you've got round hour loom plots, which a lot of aesthetic purists will say, this isn't great, guys. I'm like, but look at the offer for under €5,000. Look what you're getting. Look at the heritage. It's fabulous. I cannot explore them enough.

Yeah, what did you say? Under €5,000? Yes, it's under 4,000. Under €5,000, it's £3,900 in the UK and you just think, wow, for that kind of money, well, what else do you get?

What else are you gonna buy?

I mean, great, great looking piece. 41 mils. But yeah, I mean, it is your poor man's Daytona, you know, always has been, always will be, but it's, you know, it's way off Daytona prices and, and looks almost as good.

And Andrew, by the way, just because you mentioned that the, the whole moniker about poor man stuff, you know, there's been a, there's been a lot of this antagonism ever since Tudor was founded, and it's particularly gained weight and critical mass recently. But Tudor, in a lot of ways, for me, Andrew, are really hitting out of the park. They're doing things that Rolex simply is no longer interested in doing. So it's a test tube as well as being a kind of a gladiator's ring. Right, Let him duke it out. They'll get some things right. They won't get. Rolex is not doing anywhere near the same thing. Now, I do know which store you want to go to next, mate.

Well, we've already started talking about Rolex and we've got to go over there. Boy, oh, boy. Where do we start? Where do we start with Rolex this year? Let's, let's, let's go straight into it. Let's talk about the Explorer. We have to talk about the Explorer. So, you know, I used to own a 39 mil Rolex Explorer and the only thing that was wrong with that watch was the size. It never quite. When they expanded the case from 36 to 39, the dial just felt a little bit empty. The proportions were just somehow a bit off. It just never quite looked as good as the previous models. This year, Rolex, in a move that I think absolutely no one was expecting, downsized. When was the last time that they ever downsized anything? Downsized the Explorer back to its original 36 mil case size and, oh, my God, does this thing look perfect all over again. So you get a 36 mil explorer with all of the advantages of modern Rolex movement, etc, etc, the latest tech, the bracelets, that's not going to fall apart when you look at it etc. But in a nice 36mil case. So kudos to Rolex. Bravoed a Rolex. You should have called it a day. But you couldn't, could you? You couldn't just stop there. No. Once they finished with the perfect Rolex Explorer, 36 mil in steel, they then went and shat the bed and released this thing in a two tone gold and steel. What were they thinking? What were they thinking? Eric, help me.

All right, buddy. Look, can I, Let me take it. Okay, I'm going to clean up the bed in a moment. Let me go back to when somebody

walks in, they need burning.

No, no, they'll be burnt, trust me. But here's what we're going to do. We're going to look back where the angels sang and the cherubs came in, everybody played the harp and all this kind of good stuff. Hmm, I'm with you. That thank God, reason took hold and the gods of aesthetics and the golden ratio said, could you kindly go back to the 36 mil which all along was the perfect explorer. Andrew, we went through 10 years of, pardon my French, fucking arouse with the design. It had been perfect for decades until somebody said we need to do 39 and then the, oh whoops, the hands are too short. Hey, let's make the hands longer. And I told you when you had your 39 and I'm a previous owner of a 36 mil that it was off. It was just simply off. Even if the bracelet was fantastic. So all hail to Rolex for going back to where they were beforehands. And I'd like to utilize a line from Dangerous Reasons, which is one does not applaud the tenor for clearing his throat. And I think Rolex going back to the 36 mil is pretty much that, mate. Now let's go back to the dirty bed because the sheets are stinking, Andrew. They're stained and they're sopping and we need to do something about it. There is nowhere in the canon of sport watch history that says that moving to a toon tone proposition is a good move. It almost always ends badly. Now I can give you some exceptions in the Rolex range. I'm thinking of the early GMTs. I'm thinking of the root beer models. Right.

I was about to say root beer. I'm getting to a certain age and I find myself looking at those root beers thinking maybe.

All right, so hold on. So I think somebody at Rolex sat down and said, but baby, the root beer works. And you're like, the root beer is not equivalent to defecating on your own beds. The Explorer simply doesn't work in two tone. The dial is too sharp and dark and black and aggressive and the gold is too bright. I'm going to pause there.

It just looks like, it just looks like the kind of watch you give an estate agent who sold the most houses that month.

There we go. Right.

You know what? I go back to what I was saying about the big pilots earlier. The Explorer. There's something about the Explorer. It's so iconic, it's so utilitarian. There should only ever be one model. I mean, that was the joy of it. It was only ever available in steel.

It was simple.

Oh, which dial color would you like? Doesn't matter. Only comes in black. You got no choice. There was, there was no choice whatsoever with the Explorer. The Explorer was the Explorer. That's that. Now, for a long time the same could be said of subs as well. But of course over time they started introducing other finishes and precious metals and blah, blah. And we let it slide because what the heck. But, but, but the great appeal of the Explorer is that it was always just the Explorer in the same way that the big pilots was always this Goliath big bike. But now both IWC and Rolex have fucked with one of their dearest, most valuable designs which, you know, had real integrity for so long.

Okay, but hold on. But Andrew, could do we agree that by virtue of the fact that they brought back the 36 case size with improved bracelet, improved mechanism and blah, blah, this and crap, crap that. Maybe we don't care so much about the two Tone.

Maybe it's all right, listen, of course, and you can say, you know, it's just choice. You don't have to buy it if you don't like it. And there you go, you've actually, on the plus side, you've got the perfect steel Rolex Explorer, 36 mil. And yes, of course, it's great. It's great to have that back on, you know, in the current portfolio. I just wish again, it just feels, if I look at them as an organization, I just feel it's just, it's just cynical. They just feel like they're squeezing some extra few sales out. They know that there's someone somewhere that will definitely pay for the two Tone because they don't have any taste, they don't understand what they're buying and that just Makes me sad. It just, it lacks respect to their long standing fans and to their heritage. It just lacks respect.

But you know, Andrew, I'd remind you of something you said many, many years ago and I was looking at one of our talking hands videos, well, as recently as today, and I said to you, you know, why does Rolex do what it does?

What a dull life you must lead.

Well, you know, and I said to you, you know, why does Rolex persist into this? And you said, because they don't care about that, that, that legacy. They want you to buy new Rolexes every year. It's like a new car dealer. I'm not interested in what I sold you yesterday. I want you to give a shit about what I can offer you today.

Yeah, and I do get that and I, to be honest, I kind of admire Rolex for that. But, but that doesn't mean you should shit all over your, you know, your iconic designs. Okay, listen, we've got to keep this show moving because we don't want this to go crazy over time. Staying on the Rolex stand, staying with the Explorer, but moving instead to the Explorer 2. Now, Rolex, Rolex massively. This is, don't forget this year is the 50th anniversary of the Explorer II. Rolex massively teased on social media the fact that they would be releasing a new model. What did we get? A model that looks fucking identical to the previous model. Now if you want to open up the case and have a look, you'll find a slightly improved in house movement. Okay, great. Always nice to have. Right. And Rolex claim that they've tweaked the case, that it's rounder and it's a bit thinner. But honestly, I mean we haven't seen these in the metal yet. I'm going off the back of photos but to me it's. The difference is imperceptible. When they released the new subs, when was it? A year or two ago they did the same thing. They tweaked the case. There in the photographs you could tell the difference. The case did look rounder, thinner and frankly much better. But here with the Explorer 2, I personally can't see it. Although, I mean it was a nice looking watch before, it's a nice looking watch now. Nothing wrong with it. It just doesn't feel like they did much justice to the 50th anniversary.

So now you put your finger on it, right? If you had the 50th anniversary of a watch as seminal as the Explorer and gone is Andrew, we've lost it over many editions of this. You know, I had a previous gem with the 3186 movement. You and I again did a talking hands comparing the new version of that to the old. And when it jumped from 40 mils to 42 and we both concluded this doesn't really work, it's just a big fat piece, you know, it's like, well, where's the. So where's the imagination in that? Where's the ingenuity and where's the innovation? The answer is there isn't any better. I just. Any. I just made it bigger. Here it's even worse. A lacquer dial, a tweak case. Right. Some bits and pieces that you talked about. The reality is the 40 mil version that preceded this two generations ago was perfect. It's never been bettered. And in the same way that they reverted to the 36 on the Explorer, I would love to see them revert to a 40 on the Explorer too, please, by God.

Almost, Almost certain they won't do that. I mean they've got, they, they've been very, they've been very meticulous actually at sort of putting a, a sports model at every case size now. And they've spread them all out. I think it's, it's going to stay 42. But I just looked at it. I think it could have been as simple as changing the highlight color or something. Okay, rewind to the sub. Do you remember what we got for the 50th anniversary of the sub?

Yes. Oh my God. Everybody, it's the Kermit.

We got the Kermit. And to this day, it's one of the best looking subs ever. This is a story that's going to make you sad. Do you remember when that watch came out? It wasn't limited edition. You could buy them in dealers. We were offered them. I saw them more than once in ads. And like idiots, you and I would walk by the window of the shop another day.

No, you know what it was is that you and I considered for fun buying the 50th anniversary sub. And it was a gen one, right? I mean, you know, they make differentiations between which generation. By the way, I maintain to this day that is one of the greatest subs ever made. Beautiful. I buy one in a flash. Except now they're too expensive. They're just so. Here's a green bezel.

Yeah, they were great at retail price. Absolutely wonderful. And why we didn't buy one, I'll never know. But yeah, there's stupid money. Now.

Okay now Andrew, you've. You've got. You got two of the pieces I think from what do you got two little things.

I just think it's worth mentioning before we leave Rolex. I've saved personally my favorite of the show till last but just before we leave Rolex. I think it's just worth mentioning they've made some changes to the bracelets as well. So you've now got the. So weirdly the sky Dweller which I think was on it used to be on a President bracelet is now available on Jubilee and the GMT Master iis which used to be on Jubilees are now available on Oysters. I think the steel models the, the white gold always was so yay. You can get the bracelet you want. Thanks Rolex. That's exciting.

This is okay and I, and I. Andrew, if I can add one quick thing. My real. And by the way this has had a very mixed reaction on. On social so far. My real big pick was the Rolex Datejust 36 millimeter with the palm motif dial.

Oh good God.

So this is. This is a datejust with palm tree motif on the dial. I think that's extraordinary. I love the fact it's 36 mil. I love the fact that the dial is kick ass. It's green without having to sell your liver for one. Unlike the bed deck that we talked about to be to begin with.

I've saved the best till last. Anything else that we need to cover until I tell you what I think was the best announcement of all. Watches and wonders.

I. I can give you in 30 seconds what I think is the most phenomenal watch I saw out of this entire set of days. The h. Moser Co. Endeavor tourbillon in Ox's eye with rose gold and Falcon's eye in white gold. A pip at 70,000 Swiss francs. My good man. You can't find finer.

I tell you what, if you. If you like that Audemars piguet, have a Marvel Black Panther watch that you'll also quite fancy, I think.

Don't talk to me about that watch. Don't ever talk to me about that watch.

What were they thinking? And you know the sad thing about that AP Marvel collaboration is that's not a one off. We're gonna see more of those monstrosities.

Oh please.

I. I assume so. You don't make such a big deal about it if it's just for one watch.

By the way. Andrew, have you. Have you. Do you have any idea what price they're asking for that stuff because I haven't seen it.

I, I, no, I don't know, but I'm, I have no idea.

It's got, it's got to be six figures.

So vulgar, so revolting, I can't even contemplate it.

Okay, fine.

Fair enough.

Fair enough. All right, so listen, what was, what was your, what was your big prize?

The watch that really did impress me. The one, the one announcement where I really took a, you know, I sat back and thought, crikey, that's. It reminded me of what I loved about watches. It reminded me of the, of the, the sense of marvel that I used to have when, when seeing some of these pieces. Jaeger Lecoultre released certainly the most complicated and I'm pretty sure the most expensive reverso they've ever designed. The Ibri Meccanica calibre 185 quadriptique.

Very well said. Beautiful.

So named, so named because this is a reverso with not one, not two, not three, but four separate working dials built into its case. It's absolutely sensational.

This is insanity. Andrew. How do you get four working dials to work?

I have no idea. You have to, you have to, you have to be a Jejal watchmaker. The work they've done is stunning. It's stunning. We'll post some photos in the newsletter with this. But it's. Oh, I mean, of course it's, it's, it's watchmaking complications for the sake of it. They're, they're flexing their muscles and showing off. But isn't it, isn't that the whole point of it now and again?

Yeah.

And so I think it's, it's something like 1.2 million euros or something. And no one's, you know, none of us are going to own it. But just the fact that it's possible to make such a thing, and incidentally, the fact that they were able to make it in a Reverso case, not one of these sort of massive, unwearable, super complicated million euro watches, but, you know, in a perfectly wearable Reverso case. All of this watchmaking genius, all of this complication. Fantastic.

So look, Andrew, I couldn't agree with you more. If you did ask me what was the most excellent thing that came out of that entire fair, I would totally agree with you. That is absolutely it. And Jaeger Lecoultre have since the very beginning of that watch house, been one of the finest movement manufacturers ever. To the point that many other watch brands, including AP and others, were using them because they lacked the ability to make their own movements.

So these guys have the watchmaker's watchmaker, by the way.

Always, Andrew. Let's never, ever underestimate it. I think it's still a crying shame that even today in the wider market, Jaeger Lecoultre seems to be seen neither here nor there, making it always a fabulous secondhand buy. But it's, but their movements are incredible. So like you, I say all hail. Well done. Thank you for doing it. Thank you for, for making us continue to dream.

Okay, listen, we need to wrap up. We've been, we've been going on far too long already.

You know what, I think we did a pretty good tour de table as they say. So no, I'm really hop so I'm happy with. With some. I'm disappointed with many, Andrew, if you ask me for some kind of a wrap up, that's maybe where I come out.

Yeah, I think, you know, the Jaeger is super impressive. It's not something I would ever buy. So if I look at the general trends, I, you know, I tend to agree with you. We gave Rolex a very hard time. But the fact is, the fact that there's a smaller wearable explorer again is phenomenal news. If anyone, you know, anyone who's into watchers is going to be happy with that. And that general and downsizing trend is great. Really happy to see it.

Agreed. Agreed.

Well, tune in next time.

Thank you for joining us, folks.

Sa.