What Joe Got Right (and Wrong) in Parenting… According to His Daughter

So I know you don't listen to the podcast, but one of the things that happens on the podcast a lot is I talk about raising you and Esme. And so I thought it'd be super interesting to see how incorrect I am about all the things I say about raising you and to find out what it's like from your perspective to be raised by your mom and I. I'm happy to help. Yeah.

Awesome.

Okay, so let's, let's jump into it. If you were to describe "how we raised you" in 5 words, what would be the 5 words you'd pick?

Loving, caring, connected, boundaried. And like, I don't know if it's a word, but like, you would never say, like, "I'm so proud of you." You would say, "How do you feel?" Like, built to be autonomous or like independent, I guess. I don't know if there's a word for that.

Yeah, I don't have a word for it either. But that was actually more your mom than it was me. Like I remember when she first told me this theory, this theory of don't tell them they're doing a good job, just point them back to themselves. And I was like, what? Like, that's ridiculous. 'Cause I always wanted to be told that I did a good job. And, but I think, well, obviously she was really right in the, for me, from my perspective, I'm curious about your perspective. From my perspective, you learning to listen to yourself is more important than what I think of you. But what— how was that? Is that good? Was that good for you, or was that like horrible that you— I could see pros and cons.

I think there are pros and cons. Yeah, I think it made it so that for me, like, I like to accomplish a lot because I want to be proud of me, you know? Um, and I think everyone wants to be heard that someone else is proud of, but I never felt like you guys weren't proud of me, you You know? Yeah. So I don't actually know if I see a con yet, but I'll think about it. I'll get back to you. Yeah.

Well, I am really proud of you. So do you have a 5th one or?

That's it.

That's it.

Yeah. No. Okay. My 5th one, I'd say just warm. Our house is always warm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think also your mom on that one too.

She might. She might.

She's a little warmer than I am. It might be her. Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that sounds good. Like, obviously people listening are like, oh, that's good. But I know it's not all been good and it hasn't all been bad. What in your idea, what was some of the best things about being raised? And then I want to ask you about some of the worst things about being raised by us.

I really know how to listen to myself. Just being able to tell, I guess, who I am. Like, I think that's probably one of the, like, the top things that's come out of how you guys raised me.

Yeah.

Also, like a deep, like a love for everybody. Like you always said, like, I love everybody. I don't like everybody.

You just gave away my secret.

Sorry. But I think I really resonate with that. Like, and Mom, she always, and it drove me crazy and it still does a little bit. Like whenever I'd have a conflict, she was the mom that was like, well, this is their side of the story. Like, but like, I think it does help. In the long term.

Yeah, totally. And then what are the worst things about being raised by us? What didn't work out or what was bad? I know it's my— I'm like, uh-oh.

I'm going to tell you everything you did wrong. I think something that me and Esme both, and we've talked about it and we both see it, is like we lack the connection that we got from you guys and from the people you worked with, with like our friends. And I don't know if I want that connection all the time, but like just being deeply seen in that way and then not being able to connect with your peers in that level can like, can suck sometimes, I guess.

Yeah.

But that's not like a neg— like I still have, like I get to connect in that way. So I'd much rather know what I'm missing versus not have it in the first place. Yeah. For you, for, or for me, you and mom were like, are just normal people, you know?

Yeah.

And you're people, so there's like, you guys get angry, you get sad, you have all the emotions, right? And then like, we'll be at like places where people who like watch your podcast are or whatever. And they like look at you as if you're like perfect people. I'm like, what the freak? Like, they're my parents.

Yeah.

And I feel this, like there's two things when I meet people. When I meet people that, um, from like your guys's world, like not like people who are in your business, but people who watch you and stuff, like either they want to know like what's special about me from being raised by you guys, or like what's like what's wrong with me from being raised by you guys, or they want to know like, like details about you guys. It just like, I don't know, it's really interesting. I don't like it, but yeah, I know. Yeah. Or they wanna coach me, that one sucks. I don't like it when you guys coach me.

We really try not to, but yeah, it slips sometimes. So what's the difference between like the community people, like the people who are deep in our world and have worked with us, how is it to have that community of folks around you?

It's so cool. Yeah. They're people I can, I know I'm seen by and I can connect. And some of them try and coach me too. And then I have to be like, no. But it's like a bunch, it's like a bigger family, you know, it's just having like a bunch of aunties and uncles around. With the people who like get really close to our family, I think the hardest part for me actually has been like, because like a community, like people leave, people come, you know, and then getting really attached and really close with people who end up like leaving. I think like they feel like family and then, and nothing bad happened. It's just like, yeah, yeah, I think. And especially when that happened when I was really young, I didn't know what was going on fully. It was just like someone who really loved me and then they weren't there anymore. And that was, yeah, yeah. And I don't think that happens in other situations where it's not like where people aren't deeply seeing you.

Yeah, and definitely not as regularly as it happens. So you have all these people who are into perceiving people deeply, seeing you deeply. I see that you see other people deeply. What is it like to, at your age, to go through the world? Do you even notice it that you see things that most people don't see? We've had a couple conversations where you're pretty clear on the fact that you're seeing patterns in people that they don't— they're not getting themselves.

When it's like a personal situation, like a conflict with my friends, or like, it's a lot harder for me to see it there. Whereas if it's just like a stranger who walks into like a restaurant.

Yeah.

And I really love like trying to read people who walk into a restaurant, you know, like just based off of like them, I guess. But it's something that I've wanted to be able to like, um, to see in the personal situations because it gives you so much clarity about like like, what's— what part of this is me? What part of this is someone else? Or like, um, yeah, but I think I don't notice that it's happening, you know? It's not something where I'm like, oh, I'm different, because I can— like, that never crosses my mind. It's just something that happens.

Yeah. So I have a question for you about this. So I want to tell a story, and I want to tell my favorite recent joke, which is if you had a spirit animal, it would be a 9mm bullet. So You know, the other day you were really upset because you were going 62.9 miles an hour on your snowboard and like the best boy was doing 63 and you were 0.1 behind. But that's a description of just how intense you take everything. And the other day you got an A- in physics.

Mm-hmm.

And you were really upset at the A- in physics. And so I have two questions about that. One is, what do you think drives you like this? So that's a question. But before you answer that question, I wanna ask, I wanna tell the story and then ask you the other question too. So we're sitting there hanging out, you're doing homework or whatnot. And I tell you the story of my dad about how when I was your age, almost exactly, I had been in trouble and I finally turned it around and I had all A's. I didn't even have an A minus and I had all excellence, and I had one satisfactory plus for working well with others, which I still remember, which is weird. And I called up my dad and I said, oh, I have one— one satisfactory plus. And you said, what an asshole. You said about my dad, what an asshole. And I said to you, yeah, but who's being the asshole to you? Because you were beating yourself up so hard. So the two questions I have is, what do you think drives you like that? And then also, Having heard that, like, it seems like the self-abuse or whatever, the, the being hard on yourself around it— not that you still don't want A's, I know that— but the, the being hard on yourself has kind of dropped. So I'm curious how, how that interacted and what makes you driven like this.

Well, I think ever since I was really little, you've talked to me about like the voice in my head.

Yeah.

So I've always known it's there, I guess, but I just didn't understand what form it took until you told that story, you know. Where it's like this, like, yeah, that part of me is the asshole. Like, that's okay. But like, but it just like came to light once you said that, like, that, oh, that's the voice in my head. That's what it looks like, you know? Because I think it's, you can tell me that someone's telling me I'm bad, but how do I know that really, you know? Until like something like that's pointed out. And so I've just been sitting with it. And I went on a trip to Patagonia and I learned to love silence. And so I've just, that's like, I've just been like, and I still want to get A's. I'm still mad I got an A minus. But I also realized that like the gravity of the situation is a lot less than in the moment. I don't know exactly why I'm driven like that. I think part of it is I grew up always wanting to be like my older sister.

Yeah.

And trying to catch up. Right. But I think—

Which is hard to do 3 years younger. And yet somehow you pulled it off.

Not fully. Let's give Ezra some credit here. Um, I like to learn new stuff. And I'm okay being bad at whatever it is. So like snowboarding, I'm not ever going to go to the Olympics. I'm not amazing, but I'm okay being bad at it. You know, like I sail, I'm not a competitive sailor, but like I just love it. Like I love learning.

Yeah.

And you taught me when I was really little that part of learning is being bad at it, being like failing.

Yeah.

All of that stuff. And I don't know if that like fully equals like why I'm so hardcore about everything I do. But yeah.

So you talked about Patagonia and you've had the, you have this thing. I saw it the first time when you went like went backpacking for weeks on end without, you know, just like out in the wilderness. And then you did Patagonia. And every time you do this, you come back like more mature. It's like, it's awesome to watch it. And now you've chosen to sail across, like, old-timey sailboat across the Atlantic this summer. What is it that you get to do or learn or grow? Like, what's, what's the thing you're learning there? What's, what's the way you're growing outside of the skill? Because it seems like you're not doing it just to learn backpacking skills or sailing skills. Like, what, what is it that drives that?

I think, I think I really like the discomfort of it, of those, like, out, sort of like outsidey things. Like, there's a few parts to it, but I love— like, our everyday life is so comfortable, and I feel like when you're getting pushed, that's when you like discover— like, when you're being pushed, you're outside, you're stinky, like everything— that's when like it's clear who you— like, you just get to be with yourself in those moments, you know?

Yeah.

And also, I think it, um, I love my family, obviously, but when I get to be away from them, I take on a different role, you know, because I think we're all kind of set in the roles we play inside of our family. So whenever I'm away, like, I'm not the girl who, like, hates doing the dishes, you know?

Right.

I'm the one who has to take care of it because we all have to, like, do what we need to do, you know?

Yeah.

I think that. Plays a big role. Also, on all of these trips, there's just a lot of time. You're spending it with yourself and you're forced to. You don't have a distraction. You don't have your phone. Yeah. And I learn this every single time I do a trip and I forget it 2 months later.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. In all of these situations, including the sailing trip, you will be without your phone for an extended period. Right? Which we used to do as a kid.

You hated it then. I hated it then.

But you also didn't grow up with a screen until you were like 10 or something like that.

The Grinch was my first movie.

The Grinch was your first movie. Yeah, I just told that to— I was just having dinner with a couple who are these business people. They have 2 kids. And when they found out that you didn't have a screen until 10 or whatever it was there.

Yeah, my biggest like shock card to throw down at people. Yeah.

So, uh, you're raising your kids. How would you do— what would you do differently?

I don't know if I can pinpoint exactly what I'd do differently yet, but I, I know from hearing how you guys raised— how you guys grew up and were raised.

Yeah.

I know how different your guys' childhood was from mine. And I know how hard you guys worked to make that the case. And maybe mom started that one.

She did. She did. Absolutely. Yeah.

But I kind of see it as a process. Like I'll work hard to raise my kids in a different way. And then, and it won't be perfect either. And then they'll do the same, you know, on and on and on. And I don't think it'll ever be perfect. I don't think you're supposed to raise kids perfectly. Right. I know that I'll do some things different just because I know that you kind of have to.

Yeah.

That's like your job.

Yeah. Right. There's like an assumed growth in it. Yeah. You will grow and therefore you will do something different. You will.

It's like a process. Yeah.

I had somebody tell me once that I really appreciated. He said, "There is a way in which the younger generation is always more evolved than you are. There's always something that they get that you can't get, no matter how wise or how smart you are, because they're living in the newer world, the newer generation. And so you'll have more information, you'll have like all these neurological studies and everything that happens, it'll make things different. You'll learn about yourself, you'll overcome whatever trauma we gave to you." Yeah. The other thing is that you talked about, you've assumed change here. You talk about how the people in our community changed. Now let's get to the nitty-gritty. How have you seen Mom and I grow?

What I really appreciate is I still see you grow. And I've seen, I mean, I've like, when I was younger, you guys would fight pretty badly. Yeah, I remember. And now I see your fights and they look totally different. Like, you guys have worked so hard because— and you've also worked hard to teach me and Esme that like fighting is natural.

Yeah.

If you don't fight, like, like you have, like that's part of life.

Yeah.

But like, I've seen you be able to like handle your anger way better, which is— I like, I think we run the same anger gene a little bit. I've seen Mom like just be so clear about her boundaries and drawing them. And yeah, that was a big one. Yeah. And I've seen how that's like affected your work, and I think how that's just like allowed this to become what it is, is that you guys work on yourself and you know that you don't ever stop working on yourself.

Yeah, it's funny because when I look— I always think about my life as we used to fight a ton, and then it got better and better and better and better and better and better. But actually, we used to fight a ton, and it got better and better and better and better, and then we had kids, and it got worse and worse and worse for a while, and then it got better and better and better again. Um, yeah, just the exhaustion. And, and like, you— there's this way in which when you're— when you don't have kids and you have a fight, you can figure out how to do your thing, they do their thing, and But with kids, like, no, if you don't do the thing, then they have to do the thing. Or if you do the thing, then they have consequences. If you raise them this way and it doesn't feel good to the other person and everybody's exhausted and tired all the time. And yeah, there was a couple of years there. I remember when we were doing the remodel on the house and you were young and we weren't sleeping and everything was tight.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's— yeah. And yeah, we both grew so much because of that. Both of us. So much. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's cool. And how about, how about you? How have you seen you have grown?

I think it kind of reflects you working on your anger and like, I felt, I think I felt a lot of shame about how angry I'd get. I just like explode. Yeah. I think it helped that you'd explode sometimes too, because I knew that I wasn't alone in it. Yeah. But I think, I think because you understand where that comes from, like you understand what's behind it in like a way mom or Esme doesn't really see.

Yeah.

And so seeing that and seeing how you work with it and seeing that, yeah, like I'm like It's natural. Yeah. Yeah. I think you and Mom, whenever you felt like you had made a mistake or whatever, you would apologize to us. Like, you weren't scared to show that, you know?

Yeah.

Like, it's natural. Everyone's going to make a mistake. I think that impacted my brain heavily. I also remember when I was really little, I was crying in my room and you came in. And you started crying with me. And I said, Dad, you're fake crying. Get out of my room. And you were so hurt because you were real crying.

And yeah, that's like, that was my trauma to be told not to cry or whatever.

Yeah. Because I would cry a lot when I was younger.

Yeah.

Helped a lot.

What's the opportunity that you think that you have because you were raised this way that like a lot of kids don't have.

I have a few things to say about this, but like, for future and like growth emotionally as well as like physically is just something that have come hand in hand to me, you know, like this, like my mind growing, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

It's something that I was just raised thinking happens, you know.

Yeah.

Whereas I see a lot of the time, it like a stunt happens, like there's something that stunts like the emotional growth. And then it becomes like, oh, I'm going on my personal growth process or whatever. And I think for me and Esme, it's more just going to be like, that's what we always do.

That's cool. That makes me really happy. I'm like, woo, good job.

I hope. Good job, Dad.

Just to think that, just to see that, oh, this is just how life works is amazing.

And that's because we were around so many people that was constantly doing it. Yeah.

I remember when my mom said to me, she's like, people don't change. And she really believed that, right? Like, and that's why— did that one belief pattern— yeah, how much different your world is just to believe that people change, that you will change and can change. Yeah.

Oh, that makes me really sad.

Yeah, me too. Yeah. There's another opportunity. You said two, so that was one.

I think this is also about the voice in the head, but yeah, and then this is more about like in the last few months, but I just see, like, because I think, and I don't know how much of this is projection or not, but because I'm identifying like what, like that inside of myself, I'm seeing it so much in the kids around me and how hard like they are on themselves, you know. And like, if, like, if I'm hard on myself, like, yeah, imagine if you guys hadn't told, like, hadn't raised me with this idea, like It's, it scares me, honestly. Like, it makes sense why there is so much, like, pain.

Yeah.

Kids my age.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That, that's a— leads me to a great question. What do you think the kids in your generation need that they're not getting? Obviously, we live in this one particular part of the world, but, um, I'd say boundaries, I think.

And I think there's, like, aspects to that. There's, like, the trust that you can give a kid. And like, when you guys trust me with something and I feel how much you trust me with it, it makes it so that I never want to break that, you know? Like, yeah, it's invisible, but it's something that I care so much about. Like, if you guys hadn't trusted me like this, I would have thrown a few parties in our house by now. And I think when I see my friends who sneak around their parents, who lie to do things and stuff like that because their parents are so strict on them, don't trust them, it just creates such a different relationship. Yeah. And yeah, it's hard, like chicken and egg situation. Did they trust— like, who broke the trust first?

Yeah.

But I think not being a parent, but still from a child's perspective, I think it's the parent's job. And I think the only way that you know that you can give that trust is by holding boundaries. That's why I think boundaries are so important.

Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I do feel like if you don't trust your, if you don't teach your kid how to be trustworthy, they won't be. And so teaching them how to be trustworthy isn't telling them what to do all the time or criticizing them all the time. So, but it is an interesting thing, but it's, I don't think most parents think of it that way. It's like, how do I teach my kid to be trustworthy? And then, oh, the way to do that is to trust them, is to let them know. And there was another thing that we used to do with you a lot, or I did. I think this was maybe more me than mom, but I would say, "I'm nagging you. I don't want to nag you. How can we exist together without me nagging you?" Yeah, I remember that. Because I'm like, I just, because as soon as I'm nagging you, I feel like I'm not trusting you. And so that was kind of part of my— and it also just sucked. It felt so bad to them. For both of us. Yeah, exactly.

You nag, I don't want to do it anymore. Like, it was a whole situation. Yeah.

Yeah. When you think about your generation, what do you think is opportunities, risks? Like, what do you think about your generation and where you're headed and what's needed and what's going on? Do you have any just thoughts on that?

I think I have a lot of thoughts on this.

I think there's a lot of parents who are like, oh my gosh, my kids are—

I worry a little about the phones. I know that.

Yeah.

But I felt like the struggle with it and I still do. It's just so much easier to scroll. I have a thought and it scares me the most when I'm scrolling on my phone and I'm like, it's like I'm proud of myself for turning on a TV show instead of scrolling. You know, and that worries me. Like, I'm wasting so much of my time.

Yeah.

And it's like a— like, it messes up like your dopamine. And then like, I'm really worried about that. I think—

how many kids do you think are worried about it for themselves? There's some sort of internal dialogue where they're like, I know this isn't good, but it's like a shame.

Like, and I feel with myself, it's like, it's like a— like you're shameful about it. So of course you're gonna keep doing it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And all the tools that we have to stop doing it, they feel like parents, like try— like it feels— it doesn't feel right, I guess. I don't know. So I'm worried about that a little bit.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously I'm worried about like our environment and I don't really know if this answered your question.

Yeah, it didn't. I just— yeah, I was just wondering how you view— how do you think your your friends view the generation? Do they feel like we're stoked, we're screwed, we're—

we're doomed?

We're doomed. Yeah, my generation felt the same thing, by the way.

But social media really like pushes that, you know?

Yeah, it really does. Last question. One of the things that's happening in our world right now is that there's a lot of notoriety and success happening. You came with me to LA and you know, witnessed me doing some podcasts, and we're now being, like, recognized at the coffee shop, and there's just more of everything going on in the world, in our world. The two questions is, what's that like for you? And then the other question is, what do you— how do you see us dealing with it? Like, how are we doing? Like, from your perspective, like, how are Mom and I doing with, like, this success that's happening?

I see you struggle with it. It's not— I've seen mom struggle with the notoriety. I've seen that. And I've seen you struggle with like the idea of like success and the idea of like this is— you want like— you're driven by a want to help people and that's so clear. And I see you struggle with like the other aspects of that. And it's been a learning process, I'd say. It's something in the last few months that's changed you and Mom the most, I'd say. Because it's, I mean, it happened. So like, I know it's been happening for a while, but it feels like, boom, it's happened, you know?

Yeah.

And I also see how uncomfortable, like, nothing makes you and Mom uncomfortable except for this. I get uncomfortable before you guys make me uncomfortable on purpose. Which is interesting because I hardly see you guys uncomfortable. So I think, yeah.

How have you seen us change around it? So you're saying that we're wrestling with this or struggling with this. Have you said, are we still, do you see any difference between where we were 4 months ago, 6 months ago and now?

I think you're a lot more open to it, not about it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially you, I'd say, like, I don't know if I have the exact words for it, but you, like, you know that, that it's okay to be successful, you know? Or yeah.

Yeah. I think for me, my experience was, and you can correct me if you think that this is off, my experience was that The most uncomfortable thing is when somebody comes up to us in public. Right? That's, I think, is what you got to see too. Come up to us in public and have just that adoration, have that like, "Oh my gosh, thank you so much," like thinking we're special kind of thing. And what was happening for me at the beginning was, I don't like, "Don't put that on me," or like, "Hey, can you just see me as a person?" kind of thing. And then one day at the coffee shop, somebody came up to me and I just saw how touched he was. And I was like, oh, what if I actually allow that to hit me all the way? What if I allow how touched he is to touch me? And so, like, it was interesting because you weren't there, but Grandma was there and Mom was there and Esme was there. And he comes over and I stop and I just like fully— because I thought about doing this, I fully feel the whole thing. And I get misty, he gets misty. There's this, like, sweet connection. And I'm like, "Well, let me introduce you to—" And everybody had left. Everybody was like, "I'm out of there." That discomfort you're talking about just, like, walked out the room. And I was like, "Oh, this feels a lot better." To actually just let it in and let it touch me. It felt a lot better. And it's still a work in progress, but it feels almost like a prayer. When I do it. Like, it feels like it's a maybe a surrendering or a like a, like an appreciation when I allow it.

Like something bigger than—

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, something bigger. That's exactly— and that's, that's the work that I'm doing on it. That's what I see.

Yeah, you had a lot better words for it.

Yeah, I don't know, yours is probably just fine. More open to it. Yeah.

In my personal life though, I actually have a story. So on Patagonia There's this guy who knew, and only person in my actual life who knows what you guys do, I'd say. Right. Not actual life, but like school life. Yeah. And he knew what you did like a little bit. And he listened to your podcast when we got home and he sent me like a screenshot and he was like, this is what your dad said and this is why what you were doing was wrong from what your dad said.

And I found it. Oh, damn. Was he trying to rizz you? Is that what was happening? Okay, was he flirting with Dossly Rizz?

You'll have to ask him.

If I ask him, I'm gonna tell him like, that's a horrible way to flirt, not rizz a girl. Like, talk about her dad and then tell her what to do?

This is horrible. Okay, I found it really funny, but I was also really offended. I was like, how dare you? Like, you don't know him. But yeah, that's the only time it's really affected me in my personal life.

Yeah, good. I'm glad that that's the case. Anything you want to say before we go? Anything you want to say to me? I love you. I love you too.

Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment hosted by Oona Hudson and Joe Hudson.

Produced by One World Media.

Edited by Charlie Garcia. If you like this episode, share with a friend. My dad will be happy.