Dr Anita Collins | Why Make Music
In this conversational podcast episode, host Tim interviews Dr Anita Collins, an award‑winning music educator, researcher, and author of The Music Advantage. The dialogue traces Anita’s personal musical upbringing – eclectic home music, family trips to musical theatre, and early clarinet lessons – and how a performance degree led her into a narrow, competitive conservatoire track that ultimately felt misaligned with her identity. A pivotal performance crisis prompted her to abandon a classical career and pivot to teaching, where she discovered music’s power to reshape self‑worth and learning. Anita describes her PhD project, Bigger Better Brains, which investigates how music learning influences brain development across the lifespan, and how longitudinal observations of her former students revealed broader cognitive and life‑outcome benefits. She explains the industrial model of education that treats music as a vocational pipeline rather than a holistic human‑development tool, and argues for a more integrated, brain‑informed curriculum. The conversation also covers systemic advocacy – translating neuroscience for teachers, influencing government policy, and collaborating with researchers – as well as her insights into flow and team‑flow states in musical performance. Throughout, Anita emphasizes equity: ensuring every Australian child, especially those who struggle with reading, has access to quality music experiences, and she shares practical teaching philosophies that focus on nurturing inner drive rather than producing professional musicians.
Chapters
Dr. Anita Collins is an award-winning educator, researcher, and author, widely recognised for her work in brain development and music education. She is arguably Australia's most prominent advocate for music in schools, often acting as a bridge between the neuroscientists doing cutting-edge work into how music shapes our brains and the policymakers who shape the way music functions in our schools and in our communities. As a teacher herself, Anita has seen up close how powerful music can be as a positive force in our lives. I first heard of her a few years ago when she appeared as part of an Australian TV show called Don't Stop the Music. It followed the journey of a primary school in an underprivileged area of Perth. With the help of Anita and pop star Guy Sebastian, the school embarked on a new and well-resourced music program. And the show documented along the way the truly transformative positive effect that music had on the students, families, and teachers involved. Since then, Anita has written an amazing book called The Music Advantage, in which she makes the strongest case possible that the true purpose of music education is not simply to make elite musicians, but instead make all of us better and healthier humans. In our chat, we talk about learning clarinet as a young person and how the way that she was taught inhibited her passion for music rather than empowering it. We talk about the industrial model of education, about flow state and advocacy. And finally, we talk about why exactly Anita Collins so strongly believes in a future where every child has access to music education. Why make music?
Anita Collins, Dr. Anita Collins. Do you correct people if they don't say doctor at the start?
No, although I do get upset when they don't say it on the plane. When I don't go, they go, welcome back, doctor. And it's like the only time I really care. I don't know why.
Yeah. So we met and had a briefer chat than this will be. And that's— consider that a warning. When— well, we were just trying to figure this out. It was either just after the ABC television show, Don't Stop the Music, or the book that you put out, which I have here because I just read it again, The Music Advantage. I don't know why I'm showing you a copy of it. You've seen it.
It's kind of social proof.
Here it is. Um, but I think so that would have been 2018, maybe 2019.
Yeah. And the book came out in 2020 in September. Great time to launch a book, you know, deep in COVID year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, um, I mean, I just remember loving the book, but also loving the conversation we had. And like many of the chats I have on the radio, just thinking, man, I'd love to just pick her brain for an hour. And thankfully for me, you've, you've said yes a few years later to doing it, which I really appreciate.
Absolutely. Pick away.
Yeah. Well, actually, where I want to start is, and I've, because I've been asking people this as the first question, right? What, what are your earliest memories of music as a child or as a, as a baby or in the home? Like if I ask you, what are your earliest memories of music? What comes to mind?
There was a lot of music on, but it was quite eclectic. So it's anywhere from Queen that my dad used to listen to and then I fell in love with kind of in my teenage years. There was John Denver. There was— I'm trying to remember all that. There was the Seekers. There was Neil Diamond. Then there were musicals. So my brother and I are 5 years apart. I'm the older one. And Mum and Dad did a really lovely thing, which is they used to take me out to see the musicals at Canberra Theatre. as a special thing to do just with them. And it was, it was a whole deal. Like we— Dad would come home and he used to, of course you have to at that time, is get on the phone and buy tickets. So he had to get on the phone and buy tickets and then he'd go, yeah, I've got really good seats. And then it would be, we'd have that musical blaring for 6 months. So I knew all the words of every single Gilbert and Sullivan there is. And, and we, Mum and I would go and buy a new outfit and— It was a whole planned, very special something to look forward to. And so while there was music in the house, there was this very powerful family special moment that used to be going with Mum and Dad to the theatre and to see what at that point I looked at and went, this is amazing because it's music and it's singing and it's drama and it's arts. It's the whole creative process all in one. I used to love it. And to the point, musical theatre I absolutely adore today. And it's still a very special thing to go and see.
Yeah.
So I think I remember that. And then I remember the music at home. Then I remember I come from a family that is British and Greek. So it's beautiful Australian family of the time. So I used to— I remember Christmas and Christmas was this— I don't know. I have the sound of like across a record player and it going like that when you— when the needle goes. Because I used to go from one Christmas experience to another Christmas experience and they were so wildly different and the music was part of it. We used to have Christmas carols at the British one and then I'd go to the Greek one and then they're very joyous in their Christmas experience. And, you know, by 2 o'clock after this massive lunch, everyone would have drunk enough so that people, you know, the music starts and you get the Greek music and there's dancing around and things get broken and It was this wildly— whereas the British one was quite British in that it was just, there was a process that we all went through and the music came on at this point. And I used to, every single time I used to go, these are 2 wildly different worlds. And music was part of that. So I had a lot of different music coming in, different influences. And then of course there was school because there was choir at school. And then I started playing clarinet at 9.
I mean, I have so many questions, but I think like the most important one is Is there such a thing as Greek Christmas music? I've never thought about it.
No, there's just Greek celebration music. It's not Christmas. That ain't like— it's every day. Christmas is every day. So it's basically just getting up and doing— it's really funny. A lot of— I often watch or I've seen people and they go, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, and I sit there going, that's not a parody. That's not a joke. That's actually how it is. That's absolutely to the second how it is.
Yeah.
And it's just a little bit wacky and crazy and I love it. And it was exuberant and wonderful and loving and it had all those parts of it that I really, really appreciate. But yes, it's just the getting up and dancing. But you have to remember there's a large amount of alcohol related to that dancing. And as my cousins got older, because I was one of the youngest ones, I could see them have— they had a few glasses and they would start drinking too. So great times. We had a great time. But yeah, music was very much part of it. And when I hear it come on, it's like, yep, That's, that's what— that's us on the balcony or on the— in the lounge room around the furniture and the Christmas present wrapping and everything else. That was, that was what was going on.
So when you're a kid going to see a musical with your family and there were these, you know, really formative moments for you, were you at that age like looking up on the stage and thinking, I want to do that, or like, I want to be in the orchestra pit, or, or was that you know, because I feel like for the whole thing where your brain shifts to being like, wow, music is cool, to being like, I am going to do it or it's going to be in my life, you know, was that driven? Where did that come from? Was that from a desire to be part of it or did someone put it on you or, you know?
I'd love to tell you the canned story, but it's so not like that.
Right.
I never, never saw myself on stage. I never saw myself in the pit. I never— it was more that I was experiencing, and potentially this is where it's led the way that I think now, but I was experiencing many different parts of a team coming together to produce one piece of art in a moment in time. And I now love that experience no matter what it is.
Mm-hmm.
It could be an AFL game. It could be when I watch Sum Up on stage and I watch them and I go, God, I love watching someone at the top of their craft. Like, that's amazing. And they could be talking about economics, but— and I don't understand what they're talking about, but they're there. They're in that space and it's— they're holding the stage.
Mm-hmm.
And I think maybe that's part of it is holding the stage. So because my journey to being a musician was not driven by a love of music, it was driven by the fact that it was a thing I could do when there's so many other things I couldn't do at school. So it allowed me to have an identity and a positivity about my self-worth as a learner. And that's why I grabbed onto it so hard and potentially why I was never meant to be a musical performer. And why when I got to that, that very level of, right, you know, it's time to get on the audition train and start being a classical musician, I just went— No, that's, that's not for me.
Yeah.
It's not going to make me the best version of myself. It's not— weirdly, it's not engaging enough. It's not creative enough. It's not challenging enough. It's— it wasn't any of those things. So when I did put my instrument away and went, I'm done, it was, it was a no-brainer because it's like there's more that this brain can do and it's different. And yes, it involves music because it's really important to me and it's wired me the way I'm wired. But it's not the thing. And what I've really understood is that I'm an educator. That's, that's my vocation. That's what I'm meant to do. And I'm an educator about all sorts of things, not just music. It's just about— and I love thinking through tricky, wicked problems and going, there's got to be a way through. There's got to be a simplistic, beautiful, singular answer that actually ties all these things together.
Right. And then when you find that answer, everything's just fixed. Is that how it works?
Totally. That's how it can be. So yeah, it was never a desire to be a musician. Music came as a saviour in my primary school years to put my life in a different direction, which I think is something that I'm always aware of, is that I If I hadn't played music because I was struggling to read, my life would look really different now if I hadn't had that opportunity. So I'm forever thankful to it. But also that's what drives me to make sure that all kids get that opportunity.
Yeah, you talk about that in the book, you know, which is like you are, you're a published author. The book is incredible. You're a researcher. You, but you talk in the book about that as a kid, your reading was a fair way behind. You're really struggling. And, you know, I'm sure your parents would have been worried and that it was kind of music that unlocked that for you, which I'm sure, you know, that must inform a lot of the way that you think about it and have thought about it as a teacher and an educator and someone who talks on it now. But I want to actually want to go back to— there's so much I, I, I'm just so excited because there's so much I want to ask you about.
Okay.
Um, but maybe like going back to that moment where— so you've, you've gone through high school playing Clarinet. And then you've gone into tertiary education, I assume?
Yep, I went and did a performance degree.
Yep. So you've done that. And in that degree, you've sort of— the end goal, like, what do they tell you? Because this is a little while back, so things might be different for students who are going to that kind of tertiary course now. Or they may not. You're probably better positioned.
No, I think the narrative is pretty strong because it's incredibly old.
Yeah. So what is the narrative? Like, what do you— because I never did that, right? So my journey into music is the opposite. It's— I've never learned theory. I mean, I know some bits and pieces, but autodidactic, whatever you want to call it, like, and really no interface with tertiary, any of that side of it. I did some music learning in secondary school, but it just, it just wasn't going to be the pathway for me. I just, I was never doing the tests and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
So, and I'm fine, kind of fine with it. But so I kind of work on assumptions based on what my friends who have been through those, you know, a VCA course or a whatever course, what they come out the other end of it saying. Some of them have positive experiences and some don't. But for you, what was the narrative like? What were people telling you was going to happen at the end of it?
Because I was a clarinet player, it's not like you're a trumpet player who can go the classical route, but also could go jazz, but also could go contemporary of any description. So clarinet's a little bit of a limiting instrument in a way. So really it was the classical training sort of pathway that I ended up on. And of course, the endpoint of that is a rank-and-file member of an orchestra. And then you stay there till you die. And it's basically— that was like, this is the end. We think at 18 we're making informed decisions. And I just— it just kind of funnelled me into that place. And especially Canberra's not a big place and it at the time had quite a different and very prestigious sort of conservatoire, school of music. And it was absolutely the way to go. And everyone knew everyone else and I knew who my teacher was going to be and— It was very competitive and it didn't do great. I didn't respond positively to that environment, meaning I didn't thrive in it. I really sort of— all the other things like this, I'd studied history all the way through school and loved it and, you know, never had thought about studying it, which I maybe should have. But just when I was labelled as a musician. 'Cause this was the thing I was known for. So it's kind of living out your label.
Mm.
And I'd lost, you know, all my English classes and history classes and all the other things that I'd done and I just had music and I was like, oh, whoa, this is a super narrow way to go. And it's very much a narrative in that 'cause there is one outcome. So you're measured every single day you turn up and every single time you perform and every single time you do a recital. Against that one outcome of will you make it in the professional orchestral world. And I wasn't the top of the class. And I'd come from a situation where I often was the best player or the standout player. That's it. So I got into— I was a big fish in a little pond. And then I suddenly get into a big pond and I go, I'm not the biggest fish in here and I'm getting beaten up.
Metaphorically.
And then I just, yeah, so I still remember end of second year was fine. And then third year I crashed and burned in terms of my development. And I had this, and I still remember it. So is it, I don't know if you've ever had this, a weird situation on stage where, you know, I think I had a 4-piece recital and I was at my third piece.
Yeah.
And it's kind of like I'd expended all my cognitive energy to get to that point. And I had this weird disassociative experience where I was holding my clarinet, I was playing, the piano player was on the— I knew this piece back to front, but I was suddenly going, I don't know how to play anymore. It's like everything had switched off. I don't know how to play. I can't count. Like the world moved really weirdly and I just, I fumbled my way to the end of the third piece and then went, oh my God, what a— what just happened? Because you're on stage and you can't stop and go, excuse me. Something weird just happened in my head.
I have dreams like that. Like, I have dreams where I'm like, I'm in a radio studio and I'm like, I don't remember which buttons to press. But yeah, real life's a whole other thing. Yeah.
And so I stumbled through the 4th piece and then you could see, and it, like, I've seen kids on stage do it as well. And I know I have a really visceral experience of going, oh, I know what that feeling is. And I know that every part of your body is constricting and your brain has no oxygen to it and it's horrible. Yeah, at that point a few people came and spoke to me, not in the best way possible, but sort of go, this is not for you. If you're going to flame out like that, this is not for you. So I had this real crisis of what the hell am I doing with my life?
Yeah.
Yeah. So, and then I, and then stubbornly I went, I'm going to finish it to 4th year, which I did. And I graduated well and it was fine, but it was only to go you can't tell me that I can't do this. And that's— but I'd lost in that moment, I think I'd lost any desire, passion, forward drive to this kind of life because it's like, this is not what I want to go through again. And I'm not like— everyone's wired differently.
Mm-hmm.
But my brain does work quite differently and it wasn't getting fed what it needed to be fed really. And that's variety and tricky problems and interesting things to find out and try out stuff, all those different kinds of things. So yeah, it just, it was a funnel that I went down, got to the end and went, and now I'm going out the other way. Thanks very much. And yeah, it was, I was done. And then of course I went, oh, what do I do with my life now? Like, this has been the whole thing. And then, yeah, I think my mum and my dad both said, go and do a teaching degree, which was only 1 year at the time until you figure out what you want to do. And I had a, I had a comic moment in, well, I was there that like literally I was in the most boring lecture ever. And suddenly I felt like the light did come down from the sky and I heard the angels sing and I went, this is what I should do. I should teach because I can do this. So that's where I got to. And music's still part of it, but it's not the main part.
Yeah.
Hello, hi, it's Tim. Don't freak out, this is not an ad, there's no sponsorship about to happen. Um, I honestly just wanted to jump in for a sec to say thank you. This, what you're watching now, is the second episode of a podcast called Why Make Music? The first episode went up last week and just the response I've got to it was so lovely from friends and from strangers just reaching out to say that they appreciated a conversation like that existing. And my intention is to do them every week. So you've tuned in to number 2, and I honestly just wanted to say thanks. I will share one message I got from a friend.
Tim, I just want to make sure you feel my gratitude and enthusiasm for what you've been making. In case you ever have one of those moments where you go, why the hell do I do this? Please refer to this voice note. Thank you for doing it. It's just very hope-giving. I don't feel so alone, but it's also really informative. It's kind of creating this digital third space of people that intersect over many different weird circles in a Venn diagram.
Yeah, if I could have scripted something nice for someone to, to say to me about this podcast or this project, it would have been those words you just heard.
It wasn't scripted. I promise.
I just want to say thank you. And let's keep listening to this chat with Anita Collins. And I hope I can keep bringing you these conversations every week.
I wonder, you often find myself talking about like, you're often just sort of grabbing at metaphor or grabbing at like, trying to compare this to that when you were trying to articulate what's going on in music or what it feels like to be in music or What are some of the challenges? And I often find myself comparing music and sport, right? And I come from, I guess, what some would call contemporary music or pop music, which is a different mindset. You talk about what is a very familiar pathway because how old would you have been when you finished your 4th year of that course as a clarinetist?
22.
22. So you're 22 and you've kind of gone, You know, whether it's the universe tapping you on the shoulder or these literal people in your course who maybe questionably tapped you on the shoulder and said, this isn't for you. And you've come to terms with it and you've realized actually, yeah, it's actually not for me. That's like, that's so different, I think, because I spend a lot of time thinking about, say, a 15-year-old who is a great R&B singer and can, has pretty good access to really great sounding beats very quickly.
Mm-hmm.
And then somewhere in their late teens starts sending their music out to whether it's on TikTok or to Triple J Unearthed or wherever it is you send music. And starts to get sent these signals of like, you can do this, you can do this.
Mm.
Right. Which is sort of similar to the signals you might be getting when you're in high school or when you're the big fish in the small pond where you've got— it's a teacher or it's other parents or it's other kids going, hey, you're really good at this. In contemporary music, those signals can be very quickly, even in your teens, much stronger from these like very like sometimes overwhelmingly powerful external forces going, hey, you can do this. And then I think sometimes in music, there often isn't a point in your 20s where the universe taps you on the shoulder. There's all these forces at work to keep you in it, to keep you going like it's just around the corner. And it leads to, you know, there's a— there are many great books and studies and stuff on the mental health and being a working musician and how hard it is. But one of the main things that comes through from these studies is this constant sense of you're just around the corner from a career, or you're just around the corner from that validation that you might get. And I often find myself talking to people about like, if you're a footballer, if you're an AFL footballer and you're really, you're really great high school footballer, you might even be so good that like a scout from one of the main teams comes to see you play and is thinking about bringing you into their training program. There's inevitably a point in your early 20s if not earlier, where the universe just tells you you're not going to be an AFL footballer because you're not tall enough or you're not quick enough or you can't kick as accurately as the other person. And I just fear, like, in contemporary music especially— I guess what I'm trying to say almost is like, it's almost— you're almost fortunate to have had that experience rather than have wasted 10, 20 years of your life knocking your head against the wall trying to become a clarinetist. Not because you couldn't have been one, But because the opportunities are so narrow, you know?
Yeah. And it did. And at my— at the time I was doing it, I still strongly believe, and it might— and I, I understand that it probably still exists, but there was a lot of sexism in that pathway.
Right.
So when you look at the orchestras of the world, even now, the majority of them are men. And while when you look at the stats of people studying performance degrees, the majority are women. So there was definitely a part of that. And I found that really— I really struggled with that as a concept, that it didn't matter how well I played, it mattered who I drank with.
Right.
And I really struggled with that idea of— and it was a real affront to fairness and, and hard work, I think, as well. And I mean, but I'm very open to the idea that I've made a narrative for me that goes, yes, it was good for you to give up and you didn't you didn't give up too early. So did I sort of go, well, I'm not gonna be perfect at this and the best person ever, so I'm just gonna give up entirely. So very coming to terms with that. And I think it's one of those pivotal life decisions that you can— that I know for me, I continue to reflect upon to then go, which pathway would I have gone? How would it have been? What would my 20s have been like? When would I have given up? When would the universe have tapped me on the shoulder? Or did I exit early because I just didn't wanna face that? And they're all different parts of how we make, how we fill in the details of our story and we make it okay for that story to live in our heads. So it can go either which way. I don't think I was the best student in the world. And then again, I also can go, well, was I in the best environment for me as a student? Not entirely sure.
Yes.
But I think all of that drives me To view every single student I work with, and I include grown-ups in that, because if they don't know what I know, they're my student and I am their teacher, and vice versa. If I don't know what they know, they're my teacher. I always approach them as individuals and try and learn about them first to then figure out how to help them understand the thing that I'm trying to help them understand. And my music training didn't go astray. Because it went straight into being a conductor. And I had no training in that whatsoever. But all my musical training went into, okay, I've watched conductors up the front. What do they do? Then realised I needed massive amounts of help to improve this. So I did lots and lots of training, particularly in my 20s, to become a conductor, but also then figure out that very interesting time of how do you teach particularly teenagers? who are not quite adults, but they're not young kids. And how do you get them to realize their own potential? And that's why teenagers are awesome. They have no concept of what they're capable of. And that's great. They don't limit themselves. And all our job is, is to just get the stuff out of the way so they can find their potential.
Working with high school students, you know, when you say you're working with a high school student who is displaying many of the qualities of being someone who can go on that track, who can go on that elite musical track, whatever you want to put it. You know, are you careful how you talk to them about it? About like, about setting their expectations of what's realistic?
Yes, but I don't ever talk about it like that. I always go back to— because I think this is what I've observed about the people who have gone down that line and have— when I say be successful, that's not a success recognised on the outside. They're successful humans. So often they are teachers, often they play at the height of their game. But when I've talked to them, it's about their inner drive. So a lot of it when I work with students is to go, what do you love about this? What, what would you do if you had nothing else to do for the day and you wanted to just be in a place? What would you go and do? Oh, I'd go and compose. Oh, I'd go outside and play my trumpet, you know, at the galahs. I— it doesn't matter. It's just find your inner you. And that will carry you through and also will lead you, I think, in the right direction. So, so much of what I feel like I do is use music as a tool to help produce a well-rounded human, not produce a musician and hope that the well-rounded human follows.
Yeah.
Because it's a way of doing that and being— and I've had such lovely feedback, you know, people that have— I've taught for long enough now that There's people like who I've taught 10 years ago and then 20 years ago and then more than that who come back and say, when you said this, it really helped me develop this part of myself or helped me make this decision. And that's all I think a teacher has to be there is not tell them what to do, but help them see how to be.
Okay. So we got to Your 20s. Now you're a teacher and you've— and you're taking extra training to get into conducting. But at some point here, and maybe this has happened earlier, but you haven't mentioned it, you become like a massive nerd. The kind of nerd that's like—
I've always been a massive nerd.
But I mean, like, but like you're poring through scientific studies, you're becoming interested in neuroscience. Like, is that something that happens in your adulthood or is that kind of in there bubbling away already?
No, definitely adulthood. I always knew that I learnt differently. And I— there's certain pivotal points that I became really aware that I think very differently. And that was great because I go, hang on, everyone else thinks differently too. So this is really interesting. So every person is interesting. And then I went from teaching full-time at a high school to teaching part-time at a high school. And then I took on the role of in teacher training at a university. And at that time you could do it with a master's degree. So I went and did a master's degree because I got 4 years into my teaching and I went, I don't know enough. So I went and did that. And I think I also now understand that because I'm a poor reader and I still am a poor reader, I have to work really hard. By doing more and more study, I was proving not only to myself but to the world that I wasn't a poor reader and that I wasn't less than because I couldn't read. Because I have a feeling those are the messages I got when I was very, very young. And also, yeah, that was part of what it was. So I started teaching at university full-time, part-time at a high school, which is crazy. Just don't— not recommended.
What do you mean?
It was, well, I was full-time physician at university and 0.5.
Oh, doing a full-time job and a part-time job.
So my days were like really long.
That's not— that is reality for many people who work in music, but it's not recommended.
And our brains are wired to do it. But I'm just saying, not recommended. And then they changed the laws or rules, I should say, around who could teach at a university and you had to have a PhD, which I'd always wanted to get because as I said, that's the height, the pinnacle of yes, you can read basically. And I was just following that path. And then So I had to start doing that and I'd always wanted to, but it was just a tiny bit earlier than I'd planned. So I was given 2 bits of advice. One piece of advice was choose something that everyone else has researched and just do, just put your lens on it, which basically means you don't work very hard. You write your 80,000 words. It's not groundbreaking, but it's done. And then the other one was choose a topic you're going to love as much at the end as you did at the start, because the, the process of getting a PhD is you hold it, it's singular, you hold it on your own, you hold it for a long time. And if you don't love it, then you're just grinding through. And that's why so many people don't finish, is, is because they're just— it's just so hard to get through. So I chose the second one. And that, yeah, then I searched around, I read everything I'd Could for 9 months. And I just thought, I'll have another aha moment. You know, the sky will open and the nuns will sing and, or the angels or whoever. And I will, I will know what it was. And it kind of happened, but not in the way I thought. I read something and I was so furious by the end of it that I went, that's not what I want to know. And I went, oh, maybe this is what I should research. Because it was basically talking about what music educators should know about neuroscience. And they came up with this stuff, but none of it was useful. And I thought, no, what if a music educator went in and found stuff that music educators need to know and then, then share it that way? So that's what— that's why I ended up choosing it. And I got into it and went, oh wow, I have chosen the wrong thing to do because it was hard.
Do you, do you remember the title of your PhD? They're always fun.
Yes, Bigger Better Brains, which is now what my company is called.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
I thought PhDs are meant to have this long, ridiculous title.
Oh no, it does. It has one after that that just goes, I can't even remember that bit now. It was very long-winded to the point where you read it and go, why would you research that? But I had this bit on the front.
But it was effectively, you're effectively researching how neuroscience, like insights revealed through neuroscience.
Yep.
useful to understanding how to teach or the importance of teaching itself?
Not at all. It's not about teaching. It's actually going back the other way to say, how does learning music impact on brain development? So what does it do? And that's why I focused on childhood. It's actually all the way through life. So it's the lifespan. So really interested in it. So because I kept doing this thing, why Why are all the kids that I teach in band, you know, school captains and house captains and head of this and really good at that? And people used to go, oh, they're just the smart kids. And I'd go, yeah, but they're not. So has music, has learning music and all the parts that are part of that, which is not just the notes and the dots on the page and the sounds, there's so much more to it. Has that impacted what these kids are able to achieve? Because then I'd watch them. By that time I'd seen a whole bunch of the kids I taught go through life. And they had become stockbrokers and they'd become surgeons and they'd gone off and been entrepreneurs. They'd done all this stuff. And yet when I came back to speak to them, they could go, through learning music, I thought like this. And then I took that over to that spreadsheet over there and I could see the patterns. And I was like, there's something in here. And just as the neuroscience— well, I was really lucky when I started doing it. Just when the neuroscience started to ramp up and go, oh, there's a thing here because musically trained brains function faster, stronger, more connected, more synchronized than other brains. There's a thing in here. And that's when they really started to jump off and research it. So I was at the right place at the right time, but also it was answering that question of why the work that I did as a teacher fundamentally shifted these kids into the adults that I saw them become. And they really did think differently and they had more capacity. And that's what I wanted for every kid.
And you talk about in the book noticing this shift in, in the research, you know, around more longitudinal studies and just a trend towards like you could see that kind of happening in real time. It's like, okay, like a whole bunch of people all having this lightbulb moment at once, of which you're part. I'm curious whether like in that process, did you end up feeling like you found peers or connected to other educators or other researchers who were thinking about the same things? I know you've had the opportunity to travel a bit and speak at different conferences and things like that. Have you been able to find other Anita Collinses and kind of, you know, collaborate or even just, you know, connect a bit?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. There's absolutely no one else who is a music educator first and then delves into the neuroscience second. It's always— they are neuroscientists often who are quite highly musically trained themselves. And then they do the research. So there's no one in between besides me. There was someone originally who sort of did it, and it's actually the author of the article that I got really annoyed at. And he originally did it. But yeah, there's no one else who's doing the work because the neuroscientists don't care very much about sharing their work. So they— and they also don't necessarily have the skill set to take something that's right up here and put it into plain yet authentic language. It's just not— it's just not their thing. And that's perfectly fine. But it is my thing because I have to not dumb it down, but I have to simplify it in order to teach it. So I took that same skill and went, explain a really hard thing to me, and then I will come up with the sort of representation of it. So what I've ended up doing is working with a lot of them. They'll send me their stuff. And they go, make this simple. And it's like, okay, here's simple. And sometimes I craft a story around it or sometimes I make it into a paragraph and go, this is what it is. And they, I send it back and they go, yeah, that is what it is, but I couldn't see that. And so that's part of the, just the different skillset that I've got. Yeah, but going over to visit them and continuing to talk to them, particularly through COVID was great.
Mm-hmm.
And of course the researchers, gone into a new phase now as well. It's even moved on from where it was.
So yeah. So with the book and with your other activities and the various things you're doing, do you kind of see yourself in this kind of middle person role between science and the broader— not just the broader public, but also potentially with government or with other important institutions where you can be the person that kind of like decodes the science that You know, the tricky code that the scientists write that most people can't read. It's a pretty specific—
It's very specific.
Skill, but it's also incredibly important.
Yeah, yeah. I do work with a lot now, particularly the last 2 and a half, 3 years. I've worked a lot with government and a lot with— so we've reached sort of that systemic level, which is desperately where I want to get to because it's like we can make system change here. And then working with amazing things like the ACO Foundation's projects, like how to actually prove that when you put the science into action, it works. And it works in the Australian context, which is really important to me because so much of the research is from Canada or from the US, and they're just not the same. Even if it was in New Zealand, it's not the same. So getting stuff, real-time stuff, working here in Australia based on the research is the most valuable work I can do. So I'm moving into that space now, which is great.
And is that— I mean, when you're working on your PhD, are you already, are you already a few steps ahead? You're thinking, cool, I'm going to do this PhD, I'm going to learn what I need to learn, I'm going to kind of— I'm going to, I'm going to do the work, but then I'm going to translate that into a book that everyone can read because not everyone can read the PhD. And then that's gonna, you know, that's gonna make me the person that I can then get into the room with the people in government and talk to them. Like, is it—
or is it—
It's I'm making you sound like a psychopath, but do you know what I mean? Like, is this what you imagined or is this just kind of you following one lead to the next?
It's one lead to the next and it's with the broader vision in mind, I think, and always keeping that. And then just being— I'm constantly excited about being allowed in the room and just being able to talk to people and have conversations that start them going, oh yeah, we could change things and things could work a little bit better. Yeah. And then again, like I said, solving wicked problems and problems that haven't been solved for decades now. So yeah, it is, it seems really chronological and like, yes, of course that was the next step. And of course that was the next step. But it's very much who contacts me. Is it the right time to do things?
Yeah.
And just, and again, keeping what's important to me in mind, which is making sure that every Australian child has this opportunity and particularly those Australian kids who I know were like me, who are struggling to read, who have, because of that one thing, the pathway in front of them is both narrow and predictable and not positive. And I wanna get to them as much as anything, but I don't wanna single them out because I think every single child needs it. But I know those kids who were just like me really, really need it. And I got that opportunity, so they need that opportunity.
You mentioned a couple of times in the book, I underlined these bits, and this is— the book is from a few years ago, but you talk about, um, the industrial approach to education. Now, someone who's not like deeply in the weeds with education policy or how curriculums are built and all that kind of stuff, this, this might need a bit of explaining. But you talk about the industrial approach and you also talk about the market economy model of education. You're kind of describing in broad strokes where education is at or how it's framed. I'm curious if you could go a little bit further into that for anyone who's like not sure what that means, because I think a lot of people go to school or they send their kids to school.
Yeah.
They probably don't think too much about how education itself could be different, you know, unless they've considered a Steiner stream or something like that. They're probably, you know, education is one of those things that we just accept that it's the way it is and we don't often think too deeply about alternative models. But I'm guessing it's something you've thought a lot about.
Yeah, not so much. I like working within, within the parameters we've got because that's hard. Yeah, but more doable. So for me, it's not an alternative model or a different way to do it. It's, it's kind of— so the industrial model really sits at the— the simplest way to say is if we use music as an example, you study music in school to become a musician, right? You study maths in school to become an accountant.
You become—
science is good, you become— Like, it's this idea that it's a direct one to the other, as opposed to we have all these different discipline areas and these different ways of understanding the world, and they have histories to them and everything else. And we need to provide a young person with a broad experience of all of those so that they can have that sort of baseline experience, which knowledge which we need to function in the world. And then at points we need to go, okay, which one really interests you or are you really good at or both? 'Cause they're not necessarily the same thing. And how do you follow that so you can go further down in that particular line? So where I struggle with music as the industrial model is we— it didn't used to be like that. Even 100 years ago it wasn't like that. Music was a fundamental thing. We studied music, we studied language, and those 2 were understood to be together and complementary. And inside the human brain, they travel on the same neural highway. So they are truly complementary. And then somewhere along the way, we've gone out to this way of going, period 1 is science and period 2 is history and period 3 is music. And we've started to be very siloed. Even in schools, they're very siloed, you know. The maths staff room's over there in the maths building and the science is over there in the science building. And a lot of people don't come together, but we all teach the same students. And I think we've kind of lost that, that we teach the same students and we are developing a human being. We're helping to produce— we are a big part of producing a human being, not the only part, but a very big part of producing them. And our job is to send them out in the world with enough to make those next steps for themselves and to make good decisions for themselves and to have all the capacities including the cognitive capacities to do that. Now music's fundamental— so part of it then comes to music is in the oldest part of our brain. So it was one of the original parts we had. We had song before we had language. So we communicated through vocalisations which are song in the brain before we had all these, all these words and— and sentences and all the grammar and everything else that we have now. So it's our first language and it actually feeds the development of so many other parts of the brain. But just to silo it in, you only do it to become this musician who's on stage. So when I talk to lots of people, they're going, what's a musician? And it doesn't matter what part of the world I'm in or who I'm talking to, it's the same 3 things. Someone who's exceptional at what they do. Someone who earns their living from doing the exceptional thing. And someone who's on stage. And that's so narrow because a musician or a musically trained person, which is why I use that term, is someone who is— can also be a surgeon or a fantastic postie or an amazing parent or all of these different things. It leads to producing a human, not necessarily to producing a job title. And I think we need to move away from that and come back to what is the core of what we do, which is producing a human. How does a human operate? Let's look at how the brain operates, but also how behaviour is driven by that, and backwards, how behaviour changes the brain. And let's work in that space and figure out how to make sure they get all the experiences that they need while also following passions and areas of interest and getting that encouragement. And I think we can absolutely do it in the system that we have. It's the humans inside the system who need to behave a little bit differently and who just need to be informed. They need to understand the latest research and how that looks in a classroom. Because educational practice is about 10 to 15 years behind research. And that's what I feel a lot of my job is, to make sure that research is up front in a way that they can understand it so they can then change the practices that they use. So that's, that's where my head's sitting at the moment with it. But it is one of those great problems that I want to figure out how to improve. And that's why I love doing real-life things where you go, let's try this and see what the outcome is. So measuring the impact of that outcome is so important to see what's really happened. And that's the researcher in me popping out.
You have been talking a bit about, or you are talking a little bit about advocacy, I think. You know, I mean, you're also talking about just doing it, which you continue to do through actual programs where you're just out there and you're working with people, working with kids or with schools or orchestras or whatever. But, you know, an important part of your role, I think, as you continue doing what you're doing is advocacy, which is, as you say, being in the room.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe being part of that one conversation or that one meeting that where you say something that makes someone who's in pulling some sort of Levers, think a little bit differently. And it maybe just, if you're lucky, it just like nudges the course a little bit in, into a direction that you'd like it to see it go. That's a, that's such a specific skill and it's a really difficult skill to learn. Like, where do you first, do you feel pressure when you're in those moments? It's like something I would love to ask you. Like, are you sitting there going, God, I really hope this next sentence I say Has impact. But then, you know, how do you, how do you develop that muscle as a thing that you're doing?
I think I've had quite a few of those moments where it's like something's come out. It's like, that was not good. That could have been better. You really stuffed that one up.
We've decided to cancel music education in Queensland. Why? Well, there was this one conversation.
It's a real concern. I think, I know when you think, I often think, who else thinks this deeply about advocacy? And I don't think of it as advocacy. I think about it as education.
Mm.
So it's about helping someone to understand something they don't understand now. And in many cases, there's not a large number of the population. I think it's below 20 in Australia that have had what I would consider musically trained. That's not to a like super high level, but say it's someone who's like, learned the flute from year 5 to year 10 and did a couple of exams and did music in year 8 and 9 and, you know, played in a concert band and played in a flute ensemble. And they have that musical training that's sitting behind them. Same thing could be said of a choir member or something like that. And there's not that many of them. So I always think that— I always remember the person I'm speaking to statistically is very unlikely to understand the things I understand. So then trying to explain it in a way that helps them. And I use metaphors and analogies all the time. Sport's a great one. It's always like, think about this person on the field or think about, you know, the Matildas or think about, you know, and just trying to at least get them into a place where they go, oh, okay, I can relate to that, that thing. And I think just talking a lot, it's honestly, it's practice.
Mm.
And it's Having success with it and going, okay, that bit worked. Keep that. You remember that bit? Try that bit again. And I think I, I have a skill which is a really interesting one, and I didn't know I really had until I started to do this particular work. When I was struggling to read, what I was— no one really knew. And that seems like a weird thing. So how can someone know that you can't read? But what I learned how to do is I could read people really, really quickly. So when I still remember when I was reading and I got to a word I didn't quite know and I make sure I positioned myself so that an adult was reading with me, we do this weird thing where we almost make the shape of the first sound of the word, like when you're waiting for someone to do it. And I used to look at that and spot it and go, all right, I reckon it's probably this word. So I did a whole bunch of calculations in my head that made me look like I was reading, but I was faking it all the way. And I think that ability helped me to read people very, very well. So reading the, the nonverbal signals. Also being a conductor, that's just honed that ridiculously. So all the nonverbal signals that people give. And I have this thing that I talk to a lot of the people I work with about It's when I see the light come on behind someone's eyes and I go, I've got you. That's the thing you care about. I'm going to follow that line down. So it's picking up these tiny, tiny little nuances and then going, how do we have a conversation? And, you know, it doesn't always work, but a lot of the time at least you learn something from that person. So I think it's practice. I think I think about advocacy way more than anyone alive. So all I'm doing is just spending more time on it. And I'm very lucky with Bigger Better Brains 'cause we try things out and we test stuff on social media and we start to see where the pain points are and we start to understand what people, what resonates with people. And that concept of resonating, which is a musical concept, but I can see when someone is resonating with something. I can spot it in their body. That helps me to again move something forward and see when they're having a problem with something or whether they're not convinced. And it's just, it's a dance, it's a piece of music, and that's what a conversation is.
But I imagine it also helps you and gives you a lot of clarity when, if you are in those conversations or you're just, you know, you are advocating, let's say, a position, you're not necessarily doing it from ideology or just because of like you are obviously passionate about this, but you're actually just, as you say, you're trying to teach someone some facts that have been researched and studied, and you're just kind of like, well, we know that this leads to that, so have you thought about doing this this way so that that outcome happens?
Yeah.
Because, because of this study A, B, C, and D. Um, I imagine that's kind of, it's kind of empowering. And obviously there's a, there's an art to what words do you say and how do you read the body language and all of that kind of stuff. But at the, at the end of the day, if you, you're confident in the research and you're just representing the research That's a, I don't know, almost like a relief or something in that, I would imagine, you know.
Yeah. It's not about my opinion. It's, but also there's a strength I find in going, in understanding the research so well that going, we can't apply this into education. It's too much of a gap. It's not the right thing to do. So keeping always true to what that step needs to be and what you can take from research and what you can't take from research. And that's why As a researcher, when I listened to— COVID was a fascinating time because again, that was all about research, but also how people did and didn't understand statistics and how you could shape a story around all of those things. So I think it's about being true to that. And every once in a while I hear the next line in my head and I go, nope, that's too far. And I stop myself from saying it. So I'm censoring myself all the time and that gives me confidence. that I'm not going to step over the line. I still have people who strongly believe I do step over the line, and that's okay. You know, that's where they're at.
You know, it's always good to ask a deep music fan like, what cool new album are you listening to? Or what, like, what hot song is really cool? But I want to ask you like, what hot scientific study or like really cool new findings got all the buzz Oh, okay.
So I was reading it this morning. I was walking and I didn't get to the end of it, but it's about flow state.
Yes.
And flow state's awesome.
I love it.
It's my life. I know.
I only figured that out a couple of years ago, really. I mean, I knew it, but it was just like doing a bit more reading and I was like, oh, that's why I'm doing it all the time is because it feels great.
It's the best drug in the world. It's so good. But what I always have to remember is that as Practicing musicians and musically trained people, we have experienced more flow state than the majority of the population who've never even got close to it.
Mm-hmm.
And it's kind of like, ah, okay, if you've never had that, the world slows down and everything's fine and your brain is kind of empty and you're just like, this is awesome. Like that's, that's a— and it hasn't come from any additional drug. It's just by playing music. I always think that's something that you've missed out on. How do I help you understand what that might feel like? But I was reading a study about flow state and of course they study jazz musicians when they do flow state a lot of the time because we now have mobile EEG caps which are the caps with all the dots on them. But instead of having lots of wires coming out the end, they're now Bluetooth of course. So a jazz musician, while looking a little bit odd, I will say that, can be in an authentic situation for performance, not in a lab that's all white and bright and daytime and all that stuff. And they can actually play with other musicians and they can enter flow state and we can watch it happen in real time. So they're really interested in that. But there's a really interesting one where there's not only flow state, there's a thing called team flow state. So I know, and it's kind of like the movies when you have the football game and they're like, they're all going together and they've got to get at the goal at the end and suddenly they all just like play off each other and the perfect thing happens and they get the goal and that's team flow state. And what they've discovered is that there's a part of the brain that's for flow state and there's a part right next to it, adjacent to it, which is for team flow state. It's not a version of flow state, it's actually a separate thing. And in performance with kids, we've had moments where You know, and kids are wildly variable when they get up to play for performance. And the younger they get and the less experienced they get, the more likely it's going to crash and burn. But there was— I've had quite a number of the moments where I'll be conducting. It's like, wow, there's 60 of us and we're all in flow state together. But I remember one of them where the kids came off the stage and I— the usual, I'm cheerleading them at the going, yay, well done. You watched really well. Good, good, good. But they were like zombies. They were all just going, What just happened? What did you—
what's going on?
And they'd experienced team flow state. And just the concept that we can now identify that in the brain as an area and that it's not this woo-woo, like we all feel happy thing. It's actually something that happens in the brain. And it's— and the other part is the team flow state happens, but the language center sparks up as if we're talking to each other.
Mm-hmm.
So that whole concept that our brains are playing music, but inside here we're talking to each other and experiencing this chilly, wonderful state together is just extraordinary that we can at least even identify it. So, so many things that musicians can sit around and talk about and say, yes, we understand what flow state feels like. We now can say it's a real thing. And it's a real thing that we know where it happens and why it happens. We don't know how to spark it off. They still don't know.
Hmm.
They go, it happens. We never know why, but they know what it looks like. And that's the first step to going, okay, how do we better understand that? Because flow state comes into everything. It comes into someone who's working on the stock market and can see all the patterns happening and they're in that state. The world slows down. They go, we bet on that. Let's, let's invest in that. It happens with artists. It happens with entrepreneurs. It happens with, you know, people when they do speeches. And it's just this moment that everyone comes together and they're all in the same state. And it's uniquely human. We haven't— those parts of the brain don't exist in any animals. So it makes— again, it's why do we have music? Why do humans have music? Is it one of the reasons is to access this flow state that is just euphoric and amazing? So these are the kinds of things that I— they explain the human condition. And that's what I like. There's some science for you.
I loved that. That was amazing. It just made me want to go and join a football team.
Very hard to find. I just have a dream of like, you know, an AFL game and they've all got EEG caps on and they're just running around. We can see what happens. Never going to happen. But, you know, it'd be fun.
What's your kind of flow state go-to like? Do you have something that you know will get you into that headspace or does it happen randomly or?
Um, I think it happens randomly. I think, yeah, I think sometimes when I have a conversation with someone and that's that real moment of you just click, you get it and you are feeding off each other yet respecting each other. Music doesn't do it. Not listening to music at least. Making music, absolutely. But listening to music, it doesn't. But I think there's just— I like the little moments when you just, you know, looking up at the sky or something that just stops the brain for a second, allows it to rest. And I feel there's a moment in there where it's like— and it's a moment or a second. And then it's gone. But I think as a musically trained person who's experienced flow state, I can see it happen in those tiny moments. And that's a gift because the other versions don't happen very often. But if you can get those little ones every single day, it's your own drug factory in your head. You don't need anything else.
Oh boy. That was very exciting. What else? I mean, I've still, I have a page still full of notes.
Oh, good.
I mean, I guess I'm just curious now, like, what are you working on now? Like, what's the— what does it look like?
Yeah. So there's the stuff with Bigger Better Brains, which is serving music teachers and helping them to be able to share the information. I always thought it was just about giving them resources, but actually it's about bolstering them to be able to share the value of what they do. And that's a very powerful thing.
Yeah.
To be able to, and to talk to someone who I've never spoken to and says, look, I've been following your work for 5 years. You wrote this thing and it made me feel like I was worthy and I was valuable and important to the kids I was teaching. It's like, I'm done. My job is over. If I've affected one person, I'm very happy. A lot of work with government. Which is actually systems, like fixing systems. And I love that because systems are fabulous. Um, and helping them to help themselves is really, really good. There's a lot of advocacy work I do through, um, an initiative called Music Education Right from the Start, which is doing all sorts of different things, collecting data, getting to understand what's happening in the sector, providing solutions, getting politicians on board. And I've seen a real shift probably from halfway through last year to this year that it's now in the public narrative that music education is valuable and then they can list all the reasons. And they're right. And I'm so— I don't know how much I've contributed to that but it's really important to me that it's now just in the public understanding. And that's really important to me. So we're building on that. And then I do a lot of work— I'm back over to Scotland, Ireland, and England next year because they use a lot of my work over there to advocate for music education and to set their strategic directions from government level down. So that's really exciting to see it being useful in another couple of countries as well. And then working on a whole new way of looking at things about how to measure the impact of professional development, not just music, but I'm starting there, but all professional development for teachers to kind of see, you know, what did they know before and what do they know after and what can they do and where's the confidence come and actually impacting the whole teaching profession. But coming from that part of, you know, how can we— how do we teach well? How do we teach adults well? And how do we get them to put that into practice? Because I'd work with a lot of organisations who work with teachers. And just seeing how to capacity build them and to help them believe in themselves and to change them fundamentally. That's, that's exciting because that's not only the music system change, that's educational system change.
Mm.
And that's, that's my next enormous challenge, but also one that's very exciting because it's such an interesting problem to help people understand why they need it. And what they can do. So doing that in a lot of different places. Yeah, that's enough. That's what I'm doing.
That's probably enough. Yeah. I think just like, just drilling down on really one of the many things you said, like providing the space for music educators to, to say out loud how worthy it is what they're doing and to say that to each other is something that I think about a lot. Even I think about that a lot in the context of just music more generally. And I guess you could expand it to the arts.
Yeah.
But, you know, I think without getting too deep in the doom and gloom of it, it does feel like we're living in an era where music doesn't necessarily have that kind of like deep— respect's not even the word, but it's when you talk about the ways in which music can enhance your life, even physiologically, let alone in other ways. And then you marry that with all these other studies that have been done about music as a social glue and as a community-building tool. It's just all these powerful things that music can do in our lives. But that's kind of balanced against a— I think we do in the current cultural moment kind of devalue all of that stuff. It doesn't necessarily have economic value, a lot of the things we talk about, or it doesn't seem to on surface level.
Yeah.
So, you know, creating the space to get people together and go, what we do is really important. What you're doing is really important. Like, actually, that has a lot of power and can make a lot of impact, you know.
Yeah. I come from the perspective, I think, with that, that the— where do I begin? It's not through a lack of wanting to, it's just a lack of understanding and because it's been a lack of experience. So helping people to understand the value and not having to shout it at them but just to sort of say, this is part of the, you know, part of the cultural glue, it's part of— developing great brains, it's part of all of these different things. How do I help you understand that? And that some people— we keep going down the roads of, you know, economic benefit and we have great statistics about, you know, the music industry and how much money it brings in and all those sorts of other things. And I think that's important. But I think it needs to be a really big picture. And for me it's whoever— who am I speaking to and what does that person care about? And that's the road I take with them as opposed to there's one message and that's it. And I think that's where it's really, really important. And also to have any musician, when someone goes, yeah, but you're just a musician, and they use the word just, it's like, yeah, I am a musician. And let me tell you of all the different ways that I contribute, just like you do in your accountancy job. Let's talk about what it means to be in a society and what it means to be human and how we're both contributing to it and we're both just as valuable. And that's a very human part of it as opposed to going, you're more worthy or less worthy because of your pay packet or your standing. And I think when we get into that, but the biggest thing I've found is there's a whole bunch of very deep, even unspoken myths about music and musicians and the types of people they are and they're the odd ones and the creative ones and, you know. All those different sorts of things. And I think the more I speak those myths out loud, the more I find that we can actually start to have informed conversations about them because they don't, they don't go very far. And then you start to go, well, why do you believe that? What's informed you about that? Help me understand where you're coming from. And suddenly it becomes a conversation that is about appreciating different points of view. But ultimately it allows me an opportunity to speak about why music Through all the lifespan is very important, however we interact with it.
Dr. Anita Collins. Thank you. My brain is, my brain is, I'm in flow state right now. No, it was so inspiring. That was, thank you so much. There's so much to think about.
No worries.
Thank you very much.
Maybe I'll talk to you again soon.
Yeah, we'll keep in touch.
Okay, bye.
See ya.
More from Anita
What if every child had access to music education from birth? | Anita Collins | TEDxCanberra
