5 Essential Tips to Convert Your Summer Internship with Former Investment Bank Recruiter

Welcome to this special career-related episode. Piers is away on business in New York at the moment, so I thought I would grab Andrew to go over 5 essential tips to convert your summer internship. Now, this has come about because I get to talk to and engage with lots of members of the community. There is a lot of excited people, but also perhaps slightly nervous people because they're about to embark on their summer internship. And yeah, lots of mixed feelings at the moment because it might feel this early part in your career, there's a lot on the line for your potential future. So I thought what I'd do is I'd switch out Piers, grab Andrew from the team because his background as a former trader and also having worked on the recruitment side at a tier 1 US investment bank, I thought his insights would be particularly useful to you all. So Andrew, welcome. How's it going?

Yeah, no, thank you once again, Anthony. Um, it's— I'm excited. And as you mentioned, yeah, it's— as June enters, so comes, you know, that nervousness about summer internships. You know, people are already either doing an internship, about to start, and yeah, that, that, that, that, that fear is— and nervousness is around, okay, I'm going to do this internship, but ultimately my number one goal is to convert it into a full-time job offer. And yes, I'm more than happy to share based on my experience. Like you said, working in an investment bank, I've done a summer internship before, I've done a graduate job, I've helped people along— alongside the process convert their summer internships into graduate jobs. So I just want to share some of my, I would say, slightly unconventional tips, uh, but hopefully very useful to help you get an internship— I mean, get your graduate job.

Yeah, I think that's really important because I think a lot of people can jump on the web and kind of get this kind of conventional tip or crib sheet of what to do. But I know that you've lived and breathed this for many years. So there's 5 points I know that you sent across to me that you'd like to discuss. So yeah, let's kick it off with number 1, which you said was about first impressions. So what does that mean in, in your head?

Yeah, so I know there's a common stat that it says it takes 7 seconds for someone to make a first impression of you. And they say it's, it's, it's, it's, it's harder to change. It's not impossible, so I don't want to scare anyone who makes a bad first impression, but it's harder to change someone's impression of you. So 2 things. There's also, uh, there's all— there's a non-verbal first impression, and then there's a verbal first impression. So the first things you can do non-verbally is, you know, how do you dress? How are you looking? Um, how are you smelling? You know, you want to make sure you leave like a great first impression. You're sharp, you're slick, um, you look the part, you know, you're professional, you know. Like, invest that money. I know you're thinking, oh, I'm going to be earning loads of money, I'm going to put that away to pay off, you know, student loan debt, but make sure you invest get a good work outfit, get some nice polished shoes, um, make sure you go to like the hairdressers or, or the barbers before you start. Make a great first impression. So obviously that's on the non-verbal side. And again, and I also tell people, it's better to overdress than to underdress in your first week. All right, you know, you may be working with, you know, a tech company where everyone's quite dressed down. It's better to for people to make jokes about you being the overdressed one in the first day or two, and then you, you kind of dressed according to your area, then to come in underdressed and then everyone has a bad first impression of you. So that's on a non-verbal side. On the verbal side, how good and how memorable is your introduction when you're introducing yourself to people? You know, the first week is full full of introductions. Hey, meet Andrew. Andrew's the new intern that's just joined, uh, the XYZ desk. Or meet, meet Chris, meet Sally, um, meet Joseph. Whatever it is, people will be introducing you. So how memorable is your first introductions? You know, I like to tell people to have a few, a few what I call conversation starters sprinkled in your, in your introduction. So obviously you're going to have, you know, your university, like, you know, uh, what you study, you know, and that's, that's great. But what about you? What about your hobbies? Maybe some of the things you're interested in, interested in. And also, what is a fun fact about you? You know, fun fact about me is I used to DJ at, uh, international festivals, for example. And then end with, you know, and I'm really excited to be here and are happy to help you in, in any way during the internship. So non-verbal, make sure you look good, smell good, um, you know, you look well groomed, you like, you dress up first week at least, uh, and then secondly, like verbally, how good is your introductions? And make sure you make that memorable.

And just to be clear, because you used there an example from your real life, which was international superstar DJ in the evenings on a weekend. But not everyone might have that experience. And I know I actually find a lot of students I talk to tend to overthink it, and they tend to think that they need to say something related to finance. But that's not strictly true, right? You just need to show some personality.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a reason I call it conversation starters. So the reason I call it conversation starters, you want something to build someone's curiosity so they say, hmm, okay, tell me more. Like, you know, so like when I mentioned the international DJ, I do that strategically. So someone should say, like, tell me more, like, you DJ? Like, what do you DJ? You know, it builds curiosity, builds conversations. So like you said, Anthony Cheung, it doesn't have to be, you know, um, obviously related to finance. It could be, you know, fun fact. You know, I run half marathons on the weekend, or fun fact, you know, I'm a gymnast, or fun fact, I appeared in a music video, or fun fact, you know, I, um, like, I, I do like, you know, I play poker or I play chess, you know, just something that builds curiosity. And I challenge you listening, you know, to anyone that says, I don't have anything in my life, I'm not I haven't done anything that you have. You just have to dig deep and, and, and, and be proud of that achievement. And like Anthony said, it doesn't have to be like— it's better if it's non-finance actually, because then that builds a conversation that builds curiosity.

Hmm. Okay, well, let's move to number 2. And number 2 is one that I guess I'm a little surprised about. You perhaps being— having gone through the internship cycle a lot on the recruiter side, maybe not, but you said make it clear that you want a full-time offer. And find out about job opportunities. So I'm guessing that's quite a delicate one as to when you're not a sophisticated operator within that political system of a large institution. So what would you recommend and how you navigate that?

Yeah, the reason, the reason I put that is because I've been in part of end-of-summer interns wash-ups, wash-ups. And what they call a wash-up is basically where they get all the profiles of the interns together, and all the hiring managers come, and with the recruiters, they sit down and say who they should give a full-time offer. And what comes up, like, over and over is, uh, I'm not sure if he really or she really wants a job here, right? You know, and they give the job offer to someone who has expressed, has really told people, look, I would love a full-time offer. You know, the purpose— I've really enjoyed working here, I would love a full-time offer. So they let it be known. So make it be known from, from, from, from, from the beginning. So from the beginning, I would say to your manager, you know, I'm really happy to be here, I just want to let you know I would absolutely love a full-time offer here, what do I need to do to get that? Right, so be very clear To, to some people, it is, it's a lot, it's way out of their comfort zone to even have that conversation. Um, but your competition is having that conversation, right? So you want to be intentional. You want to be able to articulate the fact that, look, if there's a job offer available, you are very interested in, in the job, right? Again, sometimes, again, and that it's like what I said for the first one around, sometimes you need to non-verbally say that as well as verbally say it. Right, I, I remember I used to walk around some of the desks and you see people shoulders slumped, you know, just not looking like they're enjoying themselves. So even though you haven't said you're not interested, non-verbally you've expressed you're not really interested in this job, right? So even through your, just your mannerisms, how you come across, how you say hello in the morning, you know, you need to be giving the vibe that you are really happy here and you enjoy it, you really want a job in, in, in the, in the, in the particular desk. The second thing is ask if there's a job available. Sometimes there's no job available, you know. You could be placed on a desk— this happens a lot in finance— where you're placed on a desk where, you know, they, they just found out there's no headcount there. So even if you do a fantastic job, there's not going to be an offer. Right? But you need to know that from the first couple of weeks. So again, ask the manager, you know, really, really interested in having a job here, and really, I would, you know, I'm passionate, I want to work as hard as possible, just want to let you know, just want to double-check, is there— if I perform well, is there a job opportunity here? And the person will be honest, they'll say yes. And if they do say no, say, you know what, I would really appreciate if you could put a word in for me at a desk that does have a job opportunity.

Is there like a— is there a formal place to have those conversations? I guess this leads into a third point a little bit. Or is it more informally talking to your manager?

Yeah, I think it's more informally talking to your manager. Obviously, I think having the first, like, your first meeting with your manager where he says, okay, these are going to be your goals, like, your— he or she, whoever your manager is, says, lays down, okay, these are going to be your goals for your for your internship, you know. And if your manager doesn't have that conversation with you, you need to have that conversation with you. You need to know what makes a successful intern, like what are the steps you need to do, what are the work projects you need to do. And I think at that first initial meeting where you discuss your goals, have that discussion around, you know, your interest and also like headcount. Okay.

And then as I said, your third point is kind of along a similar chain of thinking, which is have unofficial performance review catch-ups at the end of each week. So yeah, is this something which you can propose as the intern, or your manager going to come to you with this idea?

Yeah, no, your manager is always going to be too busy, and you never want to leave your future in the hands of someone else. No, this is absolutely something you need to propose. And what I mean about, about having like, you know, unofficial performance reviews, uh, weekly is most firms have an official midterm review and an end-term review. By the end-term review, the decision has already been made, so it's way too late. You can't change anyone's mind, it's done. By the midterm review, the decision has probably been— 75% of the decision has been made. So again, it's going to take some work to change people's perceptions of you. So which is why you want to be having reviews, midterm unofficial reviews at the end of each week. How did I do this week? What could I do better? You know, am I on track to getting the offer? If I'm not on track, what do I need to do to, to, to get on track with it? And if I am on track What do I need to do to over-excel? You know, you just want to keep being focused on the end goal, and the end goal being you need a— you need an offer. Um, some firms have rotations, some firms have rotations, so the pressure is even more shorter. You have— say you have 2 rotations, maybe that's only 4 weeks per rotations. You may have 3 rotations, that's only 3 weeks per rotation, which means Every week or every half week, you need to be on having that conversation. How am I doing? What can I do to improve? If they say you're not doing well or you're not on track, that's perfectly fine after the first week. Your job is to write down, okay, is it my, is it my presentation skills? Is my work skills? Is it I'm not gelling with the team? They will tell me. I remember when I did, um my internship at RBS. After the first week, I did the same thing. I went to my manager and said, how am I getting on? And he said, Andrew, if I'm going to be completely honest, uh, you're not— you know, no one knows who you are, right? You haven't talked to anyone. You're not sociable. Um, like, if you really want to offer, you need to start talking to people. The next— the next morning, I was, hey mate, how you doing? Can I— can I meet you up for coffee? Can I have breakfast? What do you want to eat? And by the end of the week, I went back to him and said, how am I getting on? He says, oh, it's been, it's been like a transformation. It's been night and day. Everyone's talking about you. Everyone likes you. So it's about you. They want to see progress. It's about you taking on board the feedback and, and, and, and, and implementing it. And, and everyone loves someone who takes on board their feedback, implements it, and then gets better. So yeah, don't, don't feel demoralized if someone says you're not on track yet, or And again, there's something I say, ask people— instead of people asking people, how am I doing? Most people will— won't give you the real answer. Everyone's too polite, right? They'll say, ah, yeah, you're doing okay, which means you're doing bad, you know. But ask, okay, what can I do to improve, right? And that's— that, that gives people a bit more liberty to say, okay, you need to work on this, you need to work on that, you need to work on that. So assume you're not doing great and just say, what can I work on to improve? What 3 things can I work on to improve? And then implement that and then go back each week.

I actually think kind of documenting that week to week is also important because then at the end it can help you crystallize how far you've come, both if there's like some kind of offboarding interview to really show how far you've come and you've learned, you've evolved and adapted, and also if you don't get a job offer. At least you can look back and go, wow, I've improved a lot. I'm a better candidate now. Maybe I didn't get the offer. I'm a better person now than I was 9 weeks ago. And so bring on the next opportunity because I'm better equipped for it. And I think writing that stuff down, looking back in retrospect, can be quite a healthy, healthy process. Okay, number 4, and I think this is a key one, is consistency. So producing high-quality work consistently. But are we talking just work here? Are we talking work and behavior as well?

Yeah, that's a good point. I think we're— yeah, we're definitely talking both. Definitely talking work and behavior, you know, in terms of like what we said in the beginning about your interest, you know, you need to be consistent with your, your interest, right? Your— how you are on the desk, like your body language, you need to be consistent. You can't— you shouldn't have it the first week, hey, you know, you're bubbly, and then after that you're just you're a bit flat, you know. You have to consistently keep that up. But most definitely work, you have to perform, you have to perform well, you know. And it takes an adjustment period. So again, this is where the weekly catch-ups are going to help you, um, you know, networking with other interns, like, you know, the, the grad on the desk, um, being friendly and sociable enough with the grad on the desk just to find out you know, send me— it's like when I do a new job, like, obviously, um, you can start with your own ideas, but obviously there's set templates, there's set Excel spreadsheets, there's set PowerPoint presentations. You want to get as many of those as possible. Go to the folder where they have them saved, study them. Like, what makes a great PowerPoint in your team? What makes a great Excel spreadsheet? Evaluation model, or whatever it is your, your, your area is. Study them, reverse engineer documents that have already been created, and just try and keep that same level of standard, that same level of work. But yeah, you have to be consistent, because at the end of the day, they want someone who can deliver great work consistently.

And I, I know, having mentored a few students through this, these processes, there, there's always this natural as you said, you start quite high energy, then you come off that a little bit, then you have the kind of crisis of confidence moment, probably a third halfway through where you're like, am I good enough? Uh, do I really like this? And so if you understand that that's natural and just keep, keep, keep going in a sense of head down, doing the right thing, following a process, Um, I think physically and mentally you can adapt. You'll find, you know, human beings are amazing creatures. Um, we, we can adapt. That's why we survived for so long and thrived. So when it feels tough, I think that's where you've got to really trust yourself, back yourself, and, uh, yeah, you can get through it. Um, okay.

And, and I would also say another help I would say is have a mantra. Have a mantra. Have a mantra. What's, what's that mantra that gets you through the difficult times? Again, I'm going back to my, my summer internship. I was on a sales desk, interest rate sales desk, you know, high pressure, like loads of energy, you know, put under a lot of stress. Um, and like you said, like many times had a crisis of confidence. But at that time, an artist who was really popular was called DMX. He had this song called like Slippin', and the lyrics of the song, I think the chorus was like, you know, I'm slippin', I'm fallin', you know, but I've got to get up, I've got to get up. So that was my mantra, you know, I've got to get up, I'm slippin', I'm fallin', but I've got to get up. I would go to the toilet, just say it quietly in the cubicle, you know, get myself pumped up and then go back on the trading floor with a, with like a new like breath of energy and like resilience. Uh, so I would suggest, yeah, what is your mantra? You know, have a mantra. And all of this you could do before you start. Have that mantra, like, you know, whenever you're feeling a bit low, go into the cubicle, go for a walk, and then come back like ready to go, ready to smash it.

Okay. And then the final point then is being sociable and not turning down any opportunity to socialize. So What do you mean by that?

Yeah, you can never turn down a social, like, outing or like drinks after work. Like, you don't have to drink if you're non-alcoholic, but you just have to be around, right? You know, this is where, like, these are where— this is where the offers get given, you know. And then this is what people don't realize, you know. And again, you can, like you said in the beginning, you can read online about, okay, this is what you need to do in your internship, but But you got the main thing, you need people to like you. You need people to like you, you know. So if, whether it's invitations out for, for dinner, after work dinner, um, you know, invitations to go out for drinks with your work colleagues, you know. And again, I'm not talking anything, you know, inappropriate or anything like that. I'm saying, you know, social, like strictly social work drinks. Uh, some teams have it every week on Thursdays. Thursdays is normally quite a popular day where people go out together. And network, whether it's with your fellow interns, work colleagues, people across the bank. And this is not where you go and talk about how much you love the FT. This is where you share what you are as a person. You have some jokes that maybe you've pre-prepared ahead of the internship that you can say. You have some funny stories where, where you can share. Again, you can pre-prepare this ahead of the internship. Um, and then you just come across as a well-rounded person, someone that, like, they can bring out, whether they have clients or someone they could see on their team. They need to visualize that you can be on their team and be a great person to be, be with professionally but also socially as well, right? And that's where I remember when I was in my internship, right, I found out from other interns go out for socials with other interns, I would find out, oh, that desk is not hiring, or I've just heard there's no way, there's no headcount on that desk. Oh, okay, I'm going to avoid that desk in the rotational, in the rotational program. Um, then I find out from other like work colleagues where they'll say, oh, I remember going out with a work colleague and like, you know, went out for a drink, one drink turned into another drink, And again, I was— I didn't drink at the time, so, you know, I was just sipping on my Diet Coke, sipping on Diet Coke. So again, this is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether you drink or doesn't— you don't drink. And I think, you know, all of a sudden it's 2 AM, it's 2 AM, you know, he's struggling to get home. I put him into a cab and like, you know, and I make sure he got— he got home. I think I paid for his taxi. I'm not sure. He was just like, you know, he's a bit of a— it was been a bit of a state. Just made sure he got home. Next morning, he comes by the desk, he's like, Andrew, thanks, thanks for last night. That's all he said is thanks for last night. Um, and I was told after my internship, uh, that from the HR colleague that, um, he really rooted for me. That person really rooted for me. Obviously, he was impressed by my work, but he probably was also impressed by my character and the fact that I was a, I was a good person to socialize with. uh, really rooted for me to get, to get the, the full-time offer. So again, you never know who's going to root for you. You never know who's going to be like, you know, that, that sponsor or that person in your corner. But what you do know is you increase the likelihood of finding someone if like you're out there meeting people and socializing. So again, this is something I, I would definitely suggest you do.

So in summary then, just kind of putting together all 5. So making a good first impression, making it clear you want a full-time offer, um, have unofficial performance review catch-ups, producing high-quality work, and keeping your behavior consistent, and being sociable. So would I be right in saying then that in terms of the type of work and task you're being given, also by default the fact you've already got the internship, Is this more of a test then, not of your technical know-how, but really your attitude? Yeah, that's really going to define whether you're going to get a return offer.

Yeah, I, I would absolutely say so. I would say unless you screw up the work, right, unless you screw up the work, you know, they're looking for someone who can, who can obviously perform at a high level, but it's mainly more of your fit, you know. Do you fit in well with the, with the, with the team? Do you fit well with the firm? You know, are you a good culture fit? Do you get on with people?

Do you—

like, are you someone who people like, or do you rub people up the wrong way? Right, these are the things they're looking for. And as long as, you know, like you said, you show interest and do you want to be there— no one wants to give a job to someone who, uh, yeah, I'll take it if you want to give it to me. You know, that type of attitude. They want someone who is maybe less technically good, but is hungry. They really want this, you know. I desperately would need and I want this job. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, you know. I'm at this level now, but, you know, give me a week, I can get to this level. I'm going to stay after work. I'm going to work hard. I want to win. I want to be part of this team. That's who you want to give a job to, right? You know, so again, is that— is that oozing from you? Or is it, oh, I'm just— yeah, I'm happy to be here, but you know, I've got options. Like, you never want to show to people you have— it's, it's like, you know, you go on a date with someone and someone's, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm— well, I guess I'm interested, but I'm not sure. You know, like, that doesn't— that's, that's not going to allow you to warm to that person. So that's the same thing in a job. So yeah, absolutely, it's— I would say it sways more on the fit side. On the fit side. And, and, and the fact that you do good work is a given. The fact that you've, you've got there should be a given. If there isn't, then you need to really work hard on it. But really work on your, on your personality and your, your sociable skills.

Great. All right, well, look, I wish everyone listening, if you are about to start an internship, wish you all the very best. I'm sure you're gonna smash it. Just understand that they chose you. So you're good enough. Now it's just time to shine and prove it. And for those who haven't got an internship, because I know that's probably the majority, then look, just try and use your summer proactively. We've always got our Finance Accelerators. There's a new M&A one in partnership with UBS. There's our Markets one still ongoing all the way throughout the summer for you to get experience. So you are absolutely ready then for the next rotation of applications come the next academic year. So Andrew, always a pleasure. Thank you very much for sharing your insights and see you next time.

Great. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Anthony Cheung.