Apple Intelligence & J.P. Morgan Boosts IBD Outlook

Hello and welcome back to The Deal Room. And today on the docket, we have a couple of different stories, but mainly centered around strategy, or 3 particular stories will be, and then one, an update on investment banking scene. A good excuse because JPMorgan have come out with an outlook upgrade, which is, you know, a rare thing in recent, recent year or so. So we'll dive into that as well, but Apple partnering with OpenAI. We've got a little bit about Google and their strategy around free streaming TV channels and ads. Ads, obviously a huge component of their business model. And then for AI, we're going to talk NVIDIA kind of spreading its tentacles to other domains in terms of geography and technology and other rivals, uh, Minstrel raising money most recently. And then finally, as I said, JP Morgan, and we'll look at their investment banking revenue and what's driving that growth, or at least the perception that they're feeling optimistic for the future. So Stephen, Apple, that was, it's weird. I'll talk about the share price first, perhaps to just set the scene, because I remember that the, this was on Monday, their developer conference. So it's a fixed, it's a fixture in the annual calendar. Is this for both people who watch Apple but also index traders, because, you know, they're a big deal and a weighted component within the index. And actually their shares fell. What I loved about the media reports when I saw this, the immediate reaction was they said what they said and the stock finished down about 2% on the day. And then within about a day, I think they reversed that move and then they rallied. And now they're the biggest company in the world. And everyone was saying, well, it's obviously because of Apple Intelligence. So funny how the media kind of spins its narrative around the share price movement. But, um, yeah, perhaps you can shed light on what actually happened.

Yeah, thank you for that, and, and, and this is a story because Apple is now, yeah, the biggest company in the world, $3.27 trillion. Again, they're vying for that top spot with Microsoft, which has held it for the best part of the last year. And obviously Nvidia as well, which has been the real upstart of the last 18 months. 3 companies that have surpassed $3 trillion in market cap. But the reason why this story is so interesting is because Apple has always been a bit of a laggard with regards to its move on AGI, artificial general intelligence. It seems that it has been playing catch-up to the likes of Google, who have obviously in-house quite a lot of their own AGI developments, and also obviously Microsoft, which saw that monumental $1.2 trillion addition to its market cap post-announcement of the OpenAI investment. Now, what often happens, by the way, with Apple is it doesn't— it's not always from a strategic perspective, it's not always the leader. but it's usually the fast follower and it does it right. So it's not the first company that's come out with augmented reality, but I can tell you for a fact that its Vision Pro is quite a lot better than Oculus. It's not the first company that came up with a tablet, but its iPad defined the industry and defined product range. Same goes for headphones, same goes for smartphones, same goes for laptops. So it is a fast follower. And when they do it, the expectation is they do it right. They do it thoughtfully, and they do it with a real emphasis on design. So what's interesting here is we've been waiting for Apple to announce how AGI is going to be integrated into their hardware and into their software stack. And this has been the announcement from Monday, and this is a thing called Apple Intelligence. Now, Apple Intelligence, it is the artificial or the AGI layer that they have been developing in line with, well, now with OpenAI as the kind of engine room behind it. So Apple Intelligence is a lot of proprietary artificial intelligence stuff. In terms of how AI can be used to improve the way that you interact with your smartphone, the way that you get business done on your smartphone, the voice commands that you give to your smartphone, the condensing of documents that you can do on your iPhone as well. But the big announcement to integrate OpenAI and integrate ChatGPT for free into its Siri voice assistant. That's the thing that's really grabbed all of the headlines. So let's have a think about this from a strategic perspective. On the one hand, you can be thinking to yourself, well, Apple's obviously let the— took it— taken its eye off the ball. Why is it having to rely on OpenAI and ChatGPT to slot in to its Siri voice assistant, surely a $3 trillion technology company should have been able to create its own version of ChatGPT. And remember the history of Apple. History of Apple is to be a relatively closed network. Famously, Steve Jobs didn't want any hacker entering the backend of a Macintosh and tweaking around and adding its own graphics cards and things like that. And that's been the, that's been the theory behind a lot of Apple products. So adding a third party, which could result in quite a big dependency, much like actually Apple's dependency on Google Search within its Safari browser is quite an interesting move. And that may have been why the share price went down 2%, but then subsequently, as you rightly said, there was this realization, hey, All right. Apple have been thinking about this. It's got its Apple intelligence stack. It's turbocharged that stack with ChatGPT. And wait a second, Siri, which by the way is roundly considered to be one of Apple's biggest ever flops in terms of technology, Siri could now actually become quite good. And then the share price goes up, added about $300 billion to its share price. Over the last couple of days, and everything's looking a little bit more rosy for Apple. Just as an aside, by the way, Sam Altman was at the Worldwide Developer Conference. Didn't talk, but just was waiting in the wings, having those important side conversations.

Doesn't need to talk. The mere presence of the man does all the speaking that's needed.

But look, I mean, so just a couple of strategic points here. So firstly, again, if you've got a, if you look at your iPhone and compare it against a similar spec Samsung or Google Pixel device, the AI integrations in iPhone are not nearly as good as some of the AI integrations into the Pixel and Samsung phones. There is a degree of catch-up that needs to be played. And now what Apple's doing, again, on, on a, from a strategic perspective, is it's focusing its version of these AGI tools within its smartphone, within, within its iPhone. It's focusing on privacy. So the models, the ChatGPT models are going to be running locally on devices and on its cloud service, powered by its own chips, powered by Apple's chips. And this is the phrase, ChatGPT and OpenAI are aware of your personal data without collecting your personal data.

The lawyers got paid big bucks to come out of that line.

So, so what this, what this effectively means is, so ChatGPT and the algorithms behind it will be able to access and maybe personalize the responses according to some of the data that is lodged within that iPhone, but it will not be able to house that data outside of the servers that are connected with Apple. So it's a kind of, it's a bit of a muddle, but again, Apple's always been focused way back 20, 30 years ago to say, look, we're a closed network, so you're not going to get any viruses. We're, you know, we're really focused on privacy and privacy is something that we're really concerned about with regards to our own data and how it's used by these algorithms and by these organizations. So I think that's a relatively smart move.

Yeah, it's always interesting, like, just hearing you explain, you know, talking about the other competitors and Samsung, Google, Pixel, just how advanced— I always think, like, even from when I see someone with a Samsung phone, they're just better phones from a technological perspective. But it's funny then as a business model, they're all competing somewhat in a similar space. And yet Apple's carved out that very unique kind of brand marketing engine. 'Cause when I think of @Google, for example, it's just like, it's quite, I'm not gonna say deeply uncool, but it's Android. You say the word Android, it's just uncool.

But yeah, it's extremely uncool.

So yeah, I, it's funny how, how that comes in. I wonder from a valuation perspective then, how do you, how do you define that kind of brand power aspect when these are all like, you know, everyone knows Google, everyone knows Samsung, but Apple has that kind of premium.

Yeah, you have, you have organizations that value brands and brand is an intangible asset on the balance sheet. And the world's strongest brands are Apple, Coca-Cola, Real Madrid, Hermès, Rolex, Louis Vuitton, et cetera. And one of the key elements of valuing brands is to what extent can you charge a premium on a very, very similar product? And that goes into the intangible asset value. And I listen to a lot of Scott Galloway, shout out to a rival podcast. It's almost as big as us in the UK. Scott Galloway always talks about the iPhone as a signal of attractiveness or a signal of wealth and a signal of design. And if I've got an iPhone, It says quite a lot about my decisions, my socioeconomic status. It says quite a lot about me, even though it maybe shouldn't, because there are very expensive phones that are not Apple, but that are not iPhones. So it really is, you know, I would not, I would definitely not switch away from my iPhone, even if I know that other phones might be better, partly because I'm lazy and I know the operating system. And I know that it connects with my keychain and things like that. But partly because I think it, I don't know, the only people I know that have got Android phones are my really techie friends that run startups because they go, well, no, actually you'll find that the Pixel phone is actually much better and much cheaper, which I'm sure is right. I'm sticking with my iPhone.

Oh, we're dividing our listeners here. That's going to be a lot of fuming Android I can hear them now kind of in the background. But look, what, what are the other things I saw was to finish off this story, um, almost immediately Elon was on Twitter firing shots as he does because, you know, he's, he's in this domain as well. So what, what was his beef?

Yeah, I think the one of the best bits of career advice I could give is if you're training to be a lawyer, just get in the Elon Musk ecosystem. I was reading the other day that Tesla is now suing Elon Musk because of xAI, its artificial intelligence company, saying there's a conflict of interest. So he's getting sued at the moment. He's obviously tried suing OpenAI, which we'll talk about a little bit later. And now he's saying, look, if Apple integrates with OpenAI at the operating system level, It would be an unacceptable security violation. I put in my notes, sour grapes, question mark. So obviously Elon was one of the OpenAI founders and he left in 2018 and has subsequently been trying to sue them for abandoning their mission statement, which is about as flimsy reason to sue a company as you can possibly get. So yeah, Elon's, he doesn't like OpenAI, does he? He doesn't like some Sam Altman. He's worried that the column inches are detracting from himself and going more towards towards Altman. So again, this is all billionaire posturing, should we call it?

Yeah. Well, Elon's had a good week. I think yesterday their shares popped 7% on the back of him getting his pay deal. So whilst they're suing him, they're also signing up for his pay deal.

What was it? $53 billion, something like that.

Oh, don't miss a billion. It might have been 54. What's a billion between friends?

Yeah, something's wrong with that country. Well, something's wrong with with the system, uh, $54 billion bonus. But anyway.

Okay. All right. Well, look, let's move on because we have some other stories to get through. So, so Google, what do we have with, with Google and TV?

All right. So this story came across my desk because I was actually watching Amazon Prime the other day. Have you watched anything on Amazon Prime recently?

You know what? I do like a bit of Prime Action because you get these like weird and wonderful like documentaries in particular. That always pop up that you wouldn't get on Netflix. But one thing, big bugbear, I have to share the bugbear because if there's anyone at Amazon Prime who listens, whenever you're skipping on the different programs, you don't get any preview, like literally none. And you're like, well, you know, I'm looking for this like Danish documentary about like wood carving. And then like you see it and you're like, well, I don't know what that is. I don't know if this is the one. And it's so frustrating to the point where I'm just like, ah, just leave it. And I end up going back to the normal stuff.

Yeah. I mean, it's UX, it's user experience. It's just not, it's not nearly as good as Netflix. I think, I think we can agree on that. But also as you, you know, as you watch your Danish wood carving documentary, and if you've noticed that they started playing adverts. They started playing adverts at the beginning and then the show can randomly cut off, not even at a nice interval and just show a couple of adverts. And this is really interesting, right? And this is what led me to this story. So Google, the news story that came out a couple of days ago is that Google is ready to fill free streaming TV channels with ads. So there's this concept of fast, free, advert-supported television, which is making its way over to the UK, but it's already a relatively big thing in the US. And it's a way of accessing live TV without paying for cable. And it's kind of a hybrid between streaming and cable TV. And Google have got a bit of a jumpstart on this. They have their own Google TV. And obviously the Chromecast that we get here in the UK. And what the announcement is, is that advertisers on Google platforms can now also advertise on the free advertising supported TVs. And these advertisements will be personalized. So let's think about this. Imagine, imagine you are watching, I don't know, Channel 4 here here in the UK, but you're watching it on a free advertise— advertisement streaming television, right? And you get to a break in the Channel 4 News. And instead of there being a load of adverts that are not really that specific to you, whatever they may be, suddenly they are referencing your search history, your preferences, all of the information that has been built up in the Google ecosystem and they're starting to target you with whatever you've previously been searching, much like they do on YouTube. So, so this is just a, and again, I've, I've always, over the last few years, I've been thinking, gosh, you know, normal TV and its untargeted nature of advertising. This is really, really analog. Obviously, along comes Google and goes, well, firstly, we need to change the medium. So we need to put it on our own infrastructure, the free advertising supported TV. Then we need to link it up with our algorithms. And that's what they've done. So one comment I quite like from Carrie Marshall at Tech Radar, she says, this is great news for anyone who sat through the non-skippable ads on YouTube and thought, Man, I really wish I could have this unpleasant experience on my TV. I kind of agree with that. It's so frustrating and I'm a cheapskate, so I don't pay for a YouTube subscription. But if I'm going to get that on my TV, especially if it's not at the right period at the right point. And again, another, you know, another way that Google is spreading its advertising network and its the power of its algorithms across every facet of entertainment and media.

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like we're getting to a point now where all of these big companies are trying to find any opportunity to get new revenue in and a persistent pursuit of growth in those revenue streams that you're gonna— it's just gonna get to a point. It's so unpleasant. And probably you'll end up going back to like Sky TV or something.

Yeah. And this is, I mean, this is the case. We spoke a couple of months ago, excuse my language, but we spoke about the enshittification of the internet, which is a term that was coined by a sociologist. And this is another representation of it. We are agreeing to a kind of Faustian bargain where we are sacrificing our attention in exchange for thousands of hours of free television. And there's something much more sinister about targeted advertising than non-targeted advertising. And it just feels like we know that these tech companies, as you say, if investors and the equity research community is expecting double-digit growth every single year, then you're going to have to find it. Whether that's a Google or an Amazon. We've seen what happens from a country perspective. If China's expecting 7% GDP growth, it will go to lots of not very sustainable lengths to create that growth. And you're kind of seeing it here with the likes of Amazon and with Google.

All right, well look, let's talk about Mistral because I know we did an episode on them, I think several months ago when they first came on the scene. I mean, they're probably not even a year old, are they at this point?

Look, so this is the story that Mistral fundraises at a €5.8 billion valuation, rivaling OpenAI. And now there's a few things here. So Mistral, as we covered in the pod a few months ago, this was founded in early 2023. Think about that. So 18 months old, less than 18 months old, already got a €6 billion valuation. Quite remarkable. I think it had a handful of people when it started and it's obviously got a little bit bigger. But a couple of interesting points here. I think the first is again on this kind of big tech strategy piece. Nvidia is a major investor. Remember, Nvidia provides picks and shovels by which these AGI companies can do their work. They are the infrastructure layer that sits behind all of these companies. So once again, it's a good example of big tech wanting to make sure that they own a vertical. And we talk quite a lot, by the way, in our M&A teaching series about vertically integrated companies. And a lot of these tech companies are increasingly vertically integrated. And Nvidia, if it wants to justify a $3 trillion market capitalization, it needs to be— it needs to own and be the number one market share in more than one domain, right? Obviously it's got the semiconductors, it's got the chips, it's got the infrastructure for AGI, which has made it the company that it is today. But in order to justify that valuation going forward, it probably needs to go vertical and start to have a significant presence in a consumer-facing B2C, or at least B2B manner. So again, it's getting a $3 trillion valuation is both a massive gift and a real curse because very, very quickly there's going to be knocks on the door saying, so what's next? What are you going to do to justify this valuation? To which Jensen Huang could say, look, I wasn't the one that gave us this valuation. You're the one that put the valuation on us. But even then they're going to have to really justify this valuation. They've invested, just as an aside, they've invested in Mistral. They've invested, I was just doing a little bit of landscape mapping earlier on. So of the biggest AGI companies, the large language model companies that we speak about quite a lot, they've invested in Anthropic, which is valued at $18 billion. They've invested in Mistral that's valued at €5.8 billion. They've invested in Hugging AI, which is valued at €4.5 billion. They obviously haven't invested in OpenAI. They haven't invested in xAI, which is Elon Musk's $24 billion valuation company. They haven't obviously been able to invest in Google DeepMind, which is probably the other big player in this space. Now to continue this complex web of tech company engagements, obviously at the top of the podcast we spoke about, we spoke about OpenAI and Apple. Well, OpenAI and Apple, that's not exclusive. So Apple's actually talking to Google Gemini as an alternative. Remember, OpenAI was invested in by Microsoft, but Microsoft is also using Mistral. And then there's Nvidia coming across all of these different companies trying to get a piece of it. And obviously the whirling dervish that is Elon Musk with his xAI, that is again trying to carve out a different area of this quote unquote future trillion-dollar industry. So again, this is going to take a decent amount of time to really understand what success has been, A, from the big tech companies that are trying to pony up to some of these smaller companies, and B, from the smaller nimble companies wanting to get access to the funding, but also not wanting to be totally dominated by the big beasts in tech. It's a fascinating strategic landscape and one where obviously money is sloshing around.

When you see Minstrel at 5.8, others at the values that they're at, are you, um, anyway surprised that xAI has a valuation that's multiple times larger, or is that just the Elon, like, demand it commands from investors that he can pull on?

Yeah, it's a really, it's a really good question. I thought you were going to ask me, are you jealous? Uh, to which my answer would be yes. Um, but yeah, so, so look, um, yeah, €5 billion valuation from Mistral, uh, €4.5 for Hugging AI. Holistic AI, which is another French startup, um, is in the low single digits billions valuation. There's a few things here. Firstly, valuations tend to be higher in the US, uh, relative to Europe. So $24 billion XAI valuation compares pretty similarly with Anthropic. Now Anthropic is a more advanced company. It's generated, it's been around for longer, it's got more proprietary LLMs and it's doing some quite interesting things. But XAI has two things, right? It's got the brand of Elon Musk for better or for worse. Which has massive appeal when it comes to funding. Remember, their investors spread across the Middle East as well as West Coast Silicon Valley. So maybe a broader investor base. And secondly, they've got all of Twitter as a training set. So as a moat or as a unique proposition, having Twitter as the treasure trove by which to mine, to create real high-quality language algorithms is something that is definitely worth a bit of a premium. Although again, there's questions around that. You know, we know that Twitter is a bit of a cesspit, or it can be a bit of a cesspit. Do you want your models to be trained on something that is that unruly? We'll wait and see what the first outcomes of XAI is going to be.

All right. Well, look, we got to the final topic, which is JP Morgan coming out and updating. So give me a little idea of the numbers we're talking about. And then also, is this common behavior? And what state must the management be in, in order to then come out and make this type of, um, statement? Because you're kind of setting the bar out. So to speak.

Yeah, this is super interesting. And again, we're breaking from our tech strategy and moving into maybe slightly safer ground from an investment banking perspective. So we put in our Market Maker yesterday, we put the story about JP Morgan, and the story is that JP Morgan has boosted its outlook for investment banking revenue, forecasting a jump of 25 to 30% in the second quarter. Now, when I read this article for the first time, I mistakenly thought, oh gosh, they must have released their quarterly financials and it's a 25 to 30% jump. Then I looked at my calendar and I thought that can't be true. It's, you know, we're not at that stage yet. We're not at the end of the quarter. So what JP Morgan is doing and has done previously, by the way, this is not particularly new, is giving forward guidance to the investment community about the performance of the investment bank. And the reason that it does this in part is because to an extent this is already known. So there are league tables, there are league tables that are updated on a daily basis that track investment bank revenue and deals and who's on which deals and fee income and things like that. So What JP Morgan's essentially doing is consolidating the various datasets that have been put out there and saying, all right, we agree with Dealogic, or we agree with Wall Street opinions that this is 25 to 30%. And what it also does is it just anchors investor perspectives and estimates on their quarterly reports so that there's no big news to the upside or to the downside. JP Morgan doesn't really want the Nvidia, like, you know, earnings beat by 50% and market cap shoots up $800 billion. It's a, at the end of the day, it's a bank and it wants to give transparency and wants smooth sailing to the upside as opposed to maybe a tech company.

Yeah, and the numbers they came out with then, you mentioned there was a 25-30% second quarter. What if we break that, those numbers down then? Because we've, we talk about this a lot on the pod where it's like equity capital markets, debt capital markets, and all the different contributions to those figures in the investment banking arm. So what is it that, that performing well here for JP?

Yeah, so JP Morgan, and, and we speak about this a lot, there's a lot of different terminologies for the investment banking division amongst banks, and they can chop and change and split and slice and dice these different elements of the investment bank and call them different things. But in the world of JP Morgan, the division is corporate and investment banking, and that includes all of your traditional IBD stuff. So equity capital markets, debt capital markets, leverage finance, M&A. It also includes sales and trading. It also includes payments. So transaction services, which is something that we don't touch upon a lot in the podcast, but it's a significant part of the division. So just to give you a bit, just to give you a bit of numbers. In the first quarter, investment banking revenue. So this is IBD, this is your traditional advisory business, had $2 billion of revenue, was up 21% year on year. Payments, so this is transaction and payment services, your kind of receivables financing, your liquidity solutions, your notional pooling, your trading and working capital facilities and management, all the nuts and bolts of banking services to small and to medium and large businesses. That was $2.4 billion. So higher than its IBD revenue. Its lending. So it's lending to large corporates, which again, you might assume would be quite large. The fee revenue, the revenue was only $130 million. And compare those three to the markets and securities revenue in Q1 for JP Morgan, which was $9.1 billion. So just to give you an idea, of where the money is coming in for a bank like JP Morgan. We love talking about deals and we love talking about big IPOs and things like that, but it's actually the markets team that has seen a really fantastic quarter. And also things like payments, really traditional, I'm not going to say boring, but traditional banking, traditional flow banking.

And is there, when you actually go down, kind of peel another layer off, Is there anywhere geographically that's been more productive from a fee perspective than elsewhere?

Oh yeah, I think from an industry perspective, and this will definitely reflect from JP Morgan's perspective, you can see the US and Canada doing extremely well, bouncing back from a terrible 2022 bounce back and 2023 bouncing back quite significantly. Anything Japan, Asia, Australasia has performed very poorly. There's been a real sluggishness across their capital markets and a real sluggishness across their M&A deal volume. But maybe if we zoom out and just take a look at JP Morgan in the context of the wider industry. Now I was just looking at their rankings. Again, Dealogic does a really nice graphical representation of this. I just wanted to know where JP Morgan sits across the big elements of IPD. So in M&A at the moment, year to date, JP Morgan is ranked number 2. Any guesses as to number 1?

Yeah, I mean, it's probably Goldman's.

Yeah, it's Goldman's. But number 2, it's done $390 billion worth of M&A deals to June 2024 compared to $282 $1.2 billion last year. So just think about that in terms of uptick. ECM, equity capital markets, it is number one and it was number four last year. Goldman Sachs was number one last year. So it is risen from fourth in the league tables to first in the league tables from an equity capital markets perspective. That's part of the reason, that is part of the reason why they're estimating this 25 to 30% uptick. Debt capital markets. Investment grade, so above credit rating, double B plus, uh, double B minus, sorry. Um, JP Morgan is number one, $118 billion worth of global bookrunner fees. Last year it was number two. And then non-investment grade, your kind of high yield space, JP Morgan also number one, was number two last year with Goldman Sachs at number one. So in 3 out of those 4 IBD products, M&A, ECM, debt capital markets investment grade and non-investment grade, JP Morgan ranks 1, 2, 1, 1. So it's really smashing it from an IBD perspective and obviously doing well from their other divisions as well.

Yeah, I was just thinking about this from the appetite of some of our listeners who are thinking about the next application cycle. I'm sure JP is a destination for many, but what I'll do is, yeah, maybe in the podcast show notes, I can share a link to some of the visuals that represent some of this information. Because I think, I mean, Stephen, your recommendation would be, right, if you're applying to JP, you should know this in— if you're applying to these divisions, this should be a baseline of why, what's driving your decision for this area of the bank, why this bank in particular.

Would you—

would that be safe to say?

Yeah, 100%. You need to know about the trends for that bank in the context of the trends in the market. And again, from a career advice perspective, I'll be looking at these league tables and I'll be looking at a couple of things. Firstly, I'll be looking at the the investment banks that are rising through the league tables, whether it's Evercore or Mollis or Centerview or whatever that might be, they will be increasing their cohorts because they are getting more money in relative to their cost base. So you want an expanding graduate cohort or an expanding intern cohort relative to a contracting one, which might be the case for some of the larger banks. And then secondly, I'll be looking at those banks that you wouldn't have previously seen, maybe in a particular region that are starting to gain a foothold in a particular region. So whether that's Royal Bank of Canada, that's obviously massive in Canada, but is trying to gain a significant foothold in Europe, or whether that's Wells Fargo, massive in the US, trying to gain a significant foothold in Europe. So those are the ones that are going to be increasing their cohort sizes and actually being a little bit scrappier about getting the right candidates for the right jobs. Whereas the likes of the JPMorgans and the Goldman Sachs, I can't remember, there was a stat that came out the other day. You might remember it, the amount of applicants for the Goldman Sachs graduate program or internship program. I can't remember how many thousand, but it was a lot. 300— 315,000.

0.8% acceptance rate.

I'm glad I've got a normal job, tell you that. Wow, 0.8%. Yeah, crazy.

No, you're absolutely right though, because I think I remember maybe about a year ago Santander were doing a big push for investment banking in the US, I think, and they were hiring like a lot of people. A lot of grads comparative to say a European bank.

That's where I'd play for sure. And you know, and if you, as soon as you start really smashing it in your career, it doesn't really matter where you are as long as you get access to deal flow and access to proving yourself. And then you can go and apply as an associate to a JP Morgan or whatever it might be. So yeah, definitely be following these league tables and keeping really abreast of them, especially once application season opens, which it will do quite soon for the internship programs.

Cool. All right. Thank you very much as always, Stephen. And any questions at all, I know on Spotify you can drop us a message. I know there's been quite a few people that have done on The Deal Room in recent weeks and we've been loving it. So yeah, any feedback, questions, feel free to go for it and have a great week ahead. Thanks, Stephen.

Thank you, Anthony Cheung.