Breaking into Private Equity & Investment Banking: Salena Lee’s Unconventional Finance Journey

Hello, Selina, and welcome to the series. Really great to have you here. I'm really excited about this conversation because we're going to touch on lots of different things from your career path to your insights on, from your experience, success and personal growth about the realities of finance careers and, and long-term career mindsets. So perhaps we could start from the beginning, which is going back to where a lot of our listeners are from, which are students thinking about their career. And I know you're a non-finance student, So people always find that interesting, particularly when someone like you, and you've worked in private equity, investment banking, they're like, how does that happen? So perhaps take us back to those, those early steps in your career.

Yeah, thank you, Anthony, for having me. I'm excited to be here. So yeah, as you mentioned, I did not have a traditional path. Not, not that there is a traditional path, but I definitely had a roundabout path into finance. So I started studying politics in the US. At my alma mater IU, and then did a master's in politics as well in Bilbao, Spain. And, you know, at the time I was really interested in constitutional law. I thought about either going back to the US and becoming a lawyer there or staying in Europe and working for the EU. And so I was exploring different career paths along, along those lines. And then after finishing my master's, I got an offer in the US to work for the state of Indiana, which is where I'm from. And at the time, I got a role working for Mike Pence, who was the governor of Indiana during that phase of my life. And, you know, later would go on to become the vice president under Trump in his first term. So, you know, it was a very exciting role. I was responsible at, you know, 22, 23 years old for inbound foreign direct investment from Europe into that part of the US. So it was a lot of responsibility. We were negotiating tax incentives, helping with site selection. General economic development. So I really enjoyed it. It was very commercial, but, you know, as history has played out in the meantime, even at that point in time, I had, you know, some bifurcation between my own values set and that which was represented by the people that I was working with and working around. And, you know, caused me to have a bit of a, you know, very early career crisis where, you know, I had to really think hard about what my next steps were. And so yeah, after, after a bit of consternation and thinking, that, uh, that led me to finance.

That sounds like, um, a lot of responsibility for someone at such a young age. Is that quite normal in that profession?

Yeah, I mean, I think you— it is and it's not, you know. I think what happens a lot of times is these are very streamlined roles and they're small teams, and when you're working on a small you end up having a lot of responsibility anyways. You know, I had a lot of oversight as well and had a lot of support from my team. But, you know, the state that I'm from in the US is not very international. They were very focused on people, you know, finding somebody that had language capabilities. So, I think a lot of the reason I was given a chance is because I had a skill set that for that market is not a very common one.

And looking at your, your resume, so my actual core question here is about, um, the biggest challenge of switching fields because you had what you've described moving into finance, but then you've also done equity research as well as private equity, investment banking, and now real estate. So you've had to almost reinvent yourself. I know they are somewhat connected, but yeah, just wanted to get your take about what advice you could give to people considering a career change or pivot?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think so much about finance is throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks because it's a very broad field. And when you're studying before you actually start working, it's very easy to imagine, oh, you know, I really want to go into investment banking, or I really want to be a trader, and you have a rough idea of what that actually entails. But until you're on the job, it's hard to truly know. You know, when I went into equity research, I thought, okay, you know, I was internship that I did was in, uh, was in MacroStrategy. And so I thought, you know, this is, I've been working in economic development. This has a macro econ angle. There's going to be some overlap. It's not going to be a black and white transition. And so I thought there would be a bit more consistency there than there was. And then I got into that role and realized it's very technical. It's very at your desk. It's, you know, I got a bit lucky that it was more dynamic than it normally would be because I had that role during right as the Brexit vote happened. So it ended up being much more exciting than it probably, probably is on a normal basis. But I mean, after a few weeks in, I mean, literally probably 3, 4 weeks in, I thought, okay, if this is, if this is what finance is, and this just isn't for me, I'm not, I'm not going to be cut out for this. You know, subsequent to that, I was really lucky to get a role in infrastructure private equity, which ended up being a better fit for me. And Based, you know, kind of off the back of that, I was able to refine my career step by step and take advantage of opportunities in front of me to, to kind of reinvent myself. But you really do have to see every role, even as you get more senior, as, as a new internship where you're trying something out, you're refining, figuring out what works, figuring out what doesn't, and, and making decisions accordingly.

Can I just ask, how did you seek out those opportunities? Like you said, the private infrastructure, private equity, it's like, okay, so I'm working in equity research, and then that sounds like a job a lot of people aspire to work in itself as a segment of PE. So how did you find, and how have you found these opportunities? Is it networking? Is it just front door applications?

Yeah, it's— I mean, it's a little bit of everything. So the internship that I got in New York City was through my university. So I ended up, um, maybe to back up a little bit, after I had my career in politics, I I did go back and do a master's in finance. So didn't want to do a 2-year MBA. I already had a career. Didn't want to lose 2 more years of that. Didn't want to rack up a bunch of student loans. So I came to Europe to do a 1-year finance program to facilitate that pivot. And through my business school, we went out and did meet and greets with different banks in New York City and in London. And, you know, I had told my professor at the time who had those contacts, I said, look, this equity research role, I think it's perfect for me. This is my, This is the career that I had before doing this master's. I think it's the perfect transition and really sold myself to my professor. And he helped facilitate the intro to the leadership team at the place I ended up interning at. And so, you know, I had a lot of sponsorship from my university, from the person that I ended up getting the role from, and that helped as well. So, a lot of it is networking, but networking tactfully, you know what I mean? Networking correctly is not about having the longest list of names in your contact book. It's really about nurturing high-quality names. And that, I mean that in a, in a symbiotic way. People that you can help and can, uh, can facilitate their growth, and then people in turn who can help facilitate your growth.

Yeah, we will definitely circle back to sponsorship and mentorship towards the end of the conversation, but something you and I spoke about in preparation for this, this episode was about personal growth. And I thought something that was really interesting is you talked about this idea or principle of honesty and being honest about what you're good at. And I thought that was really interesting because I think a lot of young people have this kind of one-dimensional mindset of you just can't be weak or show weakness. But what you were talking about was— and what my question was, was how do you balance the difference between challenging yourself —because everyone's always told to have a growth mindset and you need to feel some pain in order to grow—between then identifying, okay, this isn't for me, this isn't working, like you've said with your, the equity research role, it's time to change. So yeah, your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think you, to be successful in this industry in general, having a very high level of self-awareness is, is super helpful, but it's hard to get to because The industry, the feedback that you get in this industry is very volatile. You'll do one thing well one day and you'll be the hero of the team, and then you'll screw something up the next day and you'll be the idiot in the room. And it's just, you know, the feedback is very inconsistent and you have to find a way to take feedback seriously and to accept it and to hear what people have to say while at the same time weeding out the noise. And, you know, I think very very concretely. I've always tried to compare myself to my peers, not in a toxic or competitive way, but always trying to figure out who is the person in a particular skill set who's one step ahead of me, and how do I get close to that person and learn from that person so that I can be at their level and then find the person that's one step ahead of them. So, it's a very deliberate approach to growth. But then, you know, a bit more you know, a bit more ethereal view perhaps is that I do think that deep down in your gut, you know, if something is right for you or not. If you wake up in the morning and you think, okay, this is hard, but I can do it. I can, I believe in myself. Or you wake up in the morning and you say, oh my God, another day of this. If I have to do this for the rest of my life, I don't know how I'm going to handle it. You know, your, your body will tell you the answer. Maybe not right away. Maybe it takes a bit of time, but But you'll know.

Yeah, I think definitely with age comes probably a little bit better judgment with those, those skills for sure, because I think, yeah, it's difficult, isn't it, early in your career when everyone's quite fairly, fairly one-dimensional in their thinking to get, to get their career up and running. But my next one was about, we spoke as well and you mentioned about the difference between being a good analyst doesn't necessarily mean that as your career progresses you'll make a good managing director. And so, again, I think there's a lot of assumptions on early careers people thinking, right, it's just a natural ladder. It's very like everyone's aiming for the same thing and everyone's going to go on the same route, but perhaps that's not the case, right?

Yeah, I mean, I think the irony is when you're in university, there's so much focus on technical skills. Everybody says you have to be detail-oriented, you have to be good at math, you have to be good at finance basics, you have to understand valuations, you have to be good at modeling. And that's what people focus 95% of their energy on. And it is a critical skill because that is the foundational skill of so many sectors within this industry. But, you know, if it was all about good modeling, then at some point, you know, you get— there's only so far you can go with that skill set. You, once you know how to value a company, find there are companies that are more complex and less complex, but once you know how to do it, that, that's kind of it. So, you know, what happens a lot of times is that the people who make the best analysts, the ones that are best at modeling and who get all the accolades when they're early early in their careers are the ones who get stuck at VP level just being very technical but not being able to pivot to being commercial. You know, the, the role of an analyst is valuations and detail and process management, and the role of a managing director is originating deals. So you go from a very, a very technical, granular skill set to a very subjective, network-oriented, social sales skill set, which are actually kind opposite parts of your brain, you know? So, to be able to transition along that continuum, and once you get to VP, have a foot in both doors is really important.

So, do you need to, in the years buildup to that more senior position, do you need to be working out those muscles then of the non-technical skills? And are you aware of that? Does the organization give you feedback that this is what's required? Or do you just kind of work it out because talking to other people and seeing, trying to mirror their success?

Yeah, I, I joke sometimes that, you know, I feel like Americans have a bit of a superpower in, in this regard because culturally, uh, sales and networking is, is just built into how we operate. And that was one reason why I always enjoyed working in Europe a lot more than the US, because I felt like I had that competitive advantage where in the US everybody was was like me. And, you know, when you start looking for a role, obviously, if you're an analyst and you're working, you know, 70, 80, 90+ hours a week, it is very hard to think strategically about your broader career path and what your next steps are. You're fighting fires most of the time. But when you're in university in particular, networking is so critical. And we focus on, okay, who's going to be the network that helps me get a job? How can I meet this VP at Morgan Stanley? How can I go to this event and get in front of the right people. But actually the network that has been most valuable to me in many ways are my own peers because the ramp up from analyst to VP or director or managing director goes much faster than we think it does when you're kind of in the grind in your early years. And by the time you hit VP and above, those peers are your network. Those are the people, if you're on the sell side, if you're in an IB role, those are the people working in private equity that are looking at the deals that you're selling, or vice versa. If you're working in private equity, those are the people who have access to deals and who can get them in front of you before they get in front of your competitor. So, networking with your peers and making sure you treat the people around you well at all stages in your life pays dividends later on.

You're so right. The Americans sound so much better. Than certainly us Brits. I feel slightly Hugh Grant half the time when I'm doing a podcast with American. But that then does lead me to my next question, which is, you know, given your upbringing, given your experience in Europe, your dual citizenship, you've worked in New York, London, Madrid. I just wondered what are the different— how those different cultures have shaped your approach to kind of business leadership, your personal development.

Yeah, I think the things that I, you know, and I've been living outside of the US for over a decade now, but the things that I look back on that I appreciate are sales skills, which I've mentioned, presentation skills, not being afraid to get in front of a room of people and to have that, you know, to talk to an audience, to give a presentation to an audience the same way you would have a dialogue with a friend of yours is something that is, you know, taught to us when we're little kids through projects at school and things. And so those are things that I really appreciate. And one thing That's really important that's often overlooked is not having the same fear of rejection. Part of the American psyche, I guess, is that you'll get a dozen nos for every yes that you get. So it's all about casting a wide net and feeling comfortable with the nos and just hearing it and letting it roll off your shoulders and move on to the next thing and not taking it so seriously. Whereas I think here in Europe, there's a bit more anxiety around that rejection. And that can often prevent us from taking the risks that we need to take and putting ourselves in front of the people we need to be putting ourselves in front of. We reject ourselves before we let somebody else do it. And that's even more dangerous because then you're never going to hear the yeses either. On the flip side, I think the things that I appreciate about, you know, obviously Europe is made of a lot of different cultures and a lot of different mindsets, but But broadly speaking, the things that I appreciate are it's a more humble culture broadly. So really taking a step back and saying, okay, what are my strengths, but what are my weaknesses? How do I get to a point where I see my weaknesses as a challenge to overcome and something to learn from as opposed to a crutch that I feel sad and humiliated about all the time and that paralyzes me in my progress? So I think that humility is really important. And then moving, the pace is different. You know, I think the stereotype can be a bit of a pejorative one, but it's actually a good thing, you know, that, okay, the European pace is slower than the American pace. That's true. But that also means that people are often more, more careful. They take a bit more time to make decisions. They think about, they think about their work in a little bit more detail, whereas, you know, in the American culture, you just kind of, you just kind of do, do, do, and then hope that it works out on the, on the other side.

You did mention their presentations. I just wondered, before we move on, could I just ask you, because I, on your LinkedIn profile, I can see in your banner image this wonderful picture of you presenting. And I know that you're a visiting professor of IE Business School in Spain. So I just wondered, is there any just quick, quick tips around presentations specifically that you think would be easily adaptable for people?

Yeah, I think wherever, wherever you can, particularly if you're just starting out, try to plant friends in the audience so that as you're speaking, you can look at that person and you can have a conversation with that person and kind of tune out everybody else in the room a little bit, and it'll feel more relaxed and more conversational. I think One thing that I find, aside from general nervousness, but one thing that I find with people who are just starting off public speaking is that they're overly formal and overly structured. And that doesn't land as well with an audience. People want to feel like they connect with you. And if you, you know, you reference the fact that I'm a professor, but even the classes that I give are very, they're very collegial. It's not a formal structure because I feel like if you can't connect with the person that you're supposed to be learning from, then you're not going to be able to absorb and retain information in the same way. So, really treating it like you're talking to a group of your friends, or ideally, actually finding a way to talk to a group of your friends is the easiest route.

I've uncovered your secret now. So, you're basically planting people. It's all a setup.

You know, to be fair, it happens a lot, even in very formal, you know, like in investor conferences and things like that. It's very common to plant questions, to plant friendly audience members that can, that can chime in if things get contentious. It's a, you know, it's public, public, uh, public relations more than public speaking.

Okay, well, we'll move on and talk about the realities of finance careers. And I think this is a really important one because I think the areas that you can speak from, from experience, that being private equity, investment banking, I think these are two highly sought-after areas of finance that people would like to work in. But I think, I feel like my job, our job, you as a visiting professor as well, is to like manage expectations. And so one thing when we spoke before was, you know, you're very honest in, in what you, what you were saying. And I just wanted to get the, the key differences, having you lived this, between work culture, career progression, just to assist students thinking of how to make that decision between the two kind of different tracks?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll say something a bit, uh, maybe, maybe not quite the answer to the question. I think the reality is the, the entire financial services market is so competitive that when you're starting out, you have to cast a wide net, and whatever opportunities come your way, you take them, whether it's private equity and then you try to leverage that and to get into investment banking, or investment banking, you try to leverage that to get into private equity, or, or whatever else it might be. You have to kind of take the opportunities that are in front of you. Um, that said, I mean, if you were to have the luxury of being able to choose between the two, I think both— I've enjoyed both career paths materially in different ways. I think the great thing about investment banking is really that if you are somebody who gets bored easily, who likes the pace, who wants to see something different every day, who likes networking, likes getting to know different people, you know, the, the way that you build your network in investment banking, you're meeting CEOs of relevant companies right off the bat. And those are your main stakeholders. So, so that part's really exciting. And a lot of it can be, especially when you're junior, a bit process-oriented, but that was something that frankly gave me energy. I like doing intense, highly detailed, but repetitive tasks. I kind of zen out in that space. So that, that part I actually enjoyed quite a bit. Then on the private equity side, it's a bit more, it's a bit more slow, not in the sense that you work low, you know, work fewer hours or anything like that, but it's more focused, you know, you've got a certain transaction, you're knees deep on that transaction. A lot of times, once you do the acquisition, depending on the structure of the company, you'll transition into an asset management role or a quasi-asset management role for that same asset. So it could be that you're looking at a a company or a handful of companies for a 5-year time horizon or a 7-year time horizon. So some people who are very detail-oriented and want to see, want to see something progress cradle to grave, private equity is a much more interesting path for them. But if you, you know, if you think, okay, I'm going to, if I do this for 5 years, I'm going to get bored. I can't, I don't want to look at the same company over and over again for 5 years, then, you know, probably banking is a better, a better route.

It's a great detailed breakdown. And one of the other major things here, you did say it there, was that both entail quite long hours. And I just wanted to try and get a sense of, again, this managing of expectations, of your kind of view on how you manage stress. Because within this series, I have talked to an investment, former investment banker who's now a neuroscientist and a career coach. And I got, I got the scientific answer to this question of stress management. But from you as being a practitioner within, say, PE or IB, like, how, how do you— what works for you? And maybe that will resonate with, with others.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm very disciplined about my health, so I will find time to work out every day. It doesn't matter if I'm traveling, it doesn't matter. And I know, you know, again, as an analyst, that was easier said than done. Luckily, where, where I came of age in the industry, there was a culture of that. And so people would leave at 7, go to the gym for an hour, shower, come back, get back to their desks and keep going. But in, you know, in the culture of DoorDash and Uber Eats and things like that, eating healthy, I think, is difficult. There's also a big party culture. So, you know, I don't drink a lot of alcohol. I never have. It's something that I think detracts from your ability to focus and to feel energized and to concentrate. It's also a depressant by definition. So it doesn't, you know, not so great for your mood if you're generally in a situation that is high stress and high anxiety. Um, so just being really disciplined about your, your diet and exercise, you know, sleep is often the last thing that you can control in that phase. But, um, I got very good at taking quick naps. So I would, would, uh, you know, sometimes if depending on work from home policies, you know, you, you set your alarm, you nap for 15 minutes, you wake up, you get back to it. And those 15-minute breaks, those help me recharge as well. So it's just finding little tricks that work for your body and your physiology.

Wow, the 15-minute nap. I've always tried to do that. It's never quite happened to the exact science. So my watch, my Garmin, tells me. But okay, so just moving then to the next question here was about this idea of sales and skills. That you mentioned before to me about the importance of sales in the respect of selling yourself, selling your ideas, selling a product, even selling to your boss. We've kind of touched on this a little bit. You've highlighted to me the importance of some of these skills, but I just wondered, you know, just more broadly, are there ideas of ways and means to develop those skills for young professionals? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it One thing that I tell my students at IE is that, you know, you should go through your resume, especially for those who are looking to pivot careers. Every, every skill set is related. Sales is universal across all industries. Technical skills in some ways are universal across all industries. You know, these are, these are transferable skills that you have to find a way to tell a story around. To do that in a CV is, is difficult. Because it's written as opposed to words. But it's still doable. You know, I'll give an example. For me, you think, okay, a career in politics, how do you get from a career in politics to a career in finance? But, you know, I had said, look, you might think that those two things aren't related, but I have dealt with government subsidies and incentives. My main counterparties were CEOs of companies making large investment decisions. I interact with critical stakeholders every day, like elected officials. And so, I've got a high level of being able to communicate and being able to connect with senior leadership. And actually, those things are all transferable skills, particularly into infrastructure, whereas where I ended up starting my full-time career, I said, look, you know, infrastructure is a subsidized industry. It's a regulated industry. It's got a lot of touchpoints with regulators. And so, there's more overlap than it might seem if you're just looking at my CV. So I think going through your CV line by line and really figuring out, okay, how does this item or this activity or this skill set translate into a career in finance? And then in general, it comes back to what I was saying before about having high self-awareness because it's not— to be a confident person doesn't come from being the best at everything. Being a confident person comes from knowing the lay of the land, knowing, okay, these are the things that I'm exceptional at and I'm convinced that I'm really great at these things. But actually, these are the things that I'm quite awful at, and that's okay too, because I'm going to work to improve them. And this is the path. Or actually, maybe I'm not going to work to improve them. Maybe it's not worth my time and my energy, and I'm just going to accept that that's not my forte, and I'll let my other skills balance that out. So, having that confidence allows you to tell your story in a better way organically without you having to force it.

Yeah, I remember a conversation I had with a chap who was the former head of research for Deutsche Bank, and he was saying he was very much of the opinion of you double down on your strength and then, you know, the weakness you can manage. Yeah, what was his point of view? But I guess, you know, everyone's unique. But yeah, it's interesting to get different perspectives. I mean, it depends.

I think if you have to have that mindset, and it's a mindset that I share, you have to have the luxury of good leadership. So, if you have a boss that understands that a team is symbiotic and we don't need 20 exceptional modelers and everybody else will figure it out. If they balance the skill sets within the team and, you know, okay, I'm the expert in this thing and my colleague is the expert in this other thing and we can all leverage off of each other, that facilitates that a little bit. Sometimes you'll end up in a situation where, you know, that isn't the type of leadership that you have and that makes it much more difficult. But I think that You know, this is a bit of a tangent, but I think one of the most critical decisions that you can make in your career once you get to a point where you have a bit of leverage on the roles that you take on is finding good leadership and finding a good boss. Because if you can be the smartest person in the room, if you have a boss that doesn't support you, you'll never be, you know, reaching your potential in terms of success. And often, if you're not the smartest person in the room, but you have good leadership, they'll help you bridge those gaps and, and, and help you get to the point that you need to be at.

Okay, earlier you mentioned your professor. You kind of called them out as being very pivotal early in your career for that first opportunity. And so I just wanted to break down the difference between a mentor and a sponsor, because people hear these terms, I don't think they're completely crystal of the difference between the two and the value that each can have. And then how do you actually source these people Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that the simplest way I would define it is that mentorship is more focused on ideas and sponsorship is more focused on action. So, a mentor is the one that gives you guidance and that gives you feedback and helps you structure your decision-making process. And if you've got 3 roles to choose from, they'll give you advice on the pros and cons of each of those roles. It's more feedback-oriented, whereas a sponsor is somebody who is going to act actively take you under their wings and say, look, I've, you know, I've got this great opportunity, or I heard of this thing, you should, you should reach out to this person. Um, and to, to find those people, I think, you know, in cultures where networking in a commercial sense is not as common or as integrated into our lives when we're younger, uh, it can feel a bit, it can feel a bit disingenuous, or, or, you know, like you're just casting a wide net and building your Rolodex, and you've got this Excel spreadsheet of all the people that you know, and you try to categorize them and leverage them in some way. But I think that the best way to do it is to try to help others along the way, do favors for people along the way, because through that, those synergies will come. And aside from that, just try to connect with people that you like because, you know, you can— I've mentored a lot of people. There are much fewer people that I sponsor, and those are ultimately the people that I identify with because I because they remind me of myself when I was that age, or because I actually think that this person, you know, based on where I am in my life and their interests, I actually have the power to help accelerate their careers. You know, sometimes people won't have the power depending on what subsector you're focused on. So, finding people that you actually like and get along with and people that like and get along with you, that's the best path to forging a relationship where they've actually got skin in the game.

Okay, the, the last segment, and this is about, um, long-term career mindset. And something again you mentioned to me before was about the importance of patience. And I think that's something that gets lost quite a lot for a lot of people. And I think particularly, I can only speak for myself, but I remember when I started my career 20 years ago, there certainly wasn't this ability to see everyone living living their best lives on social media and things like that. So, I can definitely sympathise with the new generation coming through. And I just wanted to get your take on this idea about why it's so important to just be patient. Patient in your personal growth, your professional development, and how you handle having that discipline to be patient. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, look, like, Success, it very seldomly is about winning the lottery in your career. You know, it is in certain instances. If you get the right career offer and, you know, get, are in the right place at the right time, some of that is, is just so much of that is oriented towards luck, but everything else is hard work and grit and, and resilience. And, you know, this is an industry that burns people out. If you started off as an analyst, you know, 50% of the people that you see around you aren't going to be in this industry in 3 years or 4 years. And so to take that into consideration, so much of being successful is just staying in the game. And to stay in the game, you have to, you have to have a bit of patience. If you're not, then you're going to burn yourself out. So I think the most important thing is to make sure that you're a better person today than you were yesterday in different aspects. You can say, okay, fine, today was the day that I learned how to I learned how to, you know, do this calculation in a financial model or that I solved this finance or accounting concept that I didn't understand before. I learned that today. And that is my win for today. It seems granular and small, but over, you know, if you're working 80 hours a week, you're actually working two full-time jobs. So, one year in your career is two years in everybody else's career. And those little learnings add up. And then also doing that with your personal growth, with your ability to control your anger and your frustration when you're tired and burnt out, your ability to stay close to friends and family and be a good and reliable member of your community when you're tired and stressed and burnt out. Those things are, are the things that 5 years from now or 10 years from now are actually going to be your support system that helps you stay in this career and be successful in it in the long run and not just have it be a you know, 3-year stint that is a nice little entry on your resume.

Yeah, it's really interesting when you said kind of staying in the game. It almost feels like investing, investing principles. It's like you can day trade and you can have big swings up and down. It feels super volatile. You're super emotionally invested. But if you just remain invested over the long period, it typically, you know, has a different result. I think it's particularly true.

I use that wording a lot when I'm speaking to women's groups and minority groups because we think, okay, fine, you know, if we're going to change society, we have to have some big, you know, it has to be policy change or we have to get a certain number of a certain type of person in leadership and all those things are critical. But, you know, we have to be in this for the long haul too and we can't burn ourselves out. So, sometimes just, staying in is, is enough of a battle to fight and an important one.

Okay, to close then, and something I ask all of the guests in this series, which is their biggest piece of advice. If you could go back and give your earlier self when you were kind of graduating, as to kind of in hindsight now going back, what would you say to Selena back then?

I, I think the most important thing is to not reject yourself. Never take yourself out of the running. Throw You just throw everything at the wall to see what sticks. Try everything out, apply for everything, talk to everybody. You know, some of those things will work out, most of them won't, but through that, you'll be able to refine what you're good at, and you'll hear of opportunities that you wouldn't have heard of otherwise. So really just never taking yourself out of the running is, for me, the most important thing.

Okay, brilliant. Selena, thank you so much for giving up your time to be with us today. Really appreciate your insights.

Thank you, Anthony Cheung. It was great to be here.