Commodity Trading Career Insight: Kristine Engman (Former Global Head of Trading & Risk at Cargill)

Hi Christine, and absolutely amazing to have you on and actually to kick off the first episode of this series, which full disclosure was actually inspired by me listening to you on a different podcast and going, wow, I found that super insightful. So refreshing to find someone who's had a really senior career as a woman in trading. I would love to do conversation with you, but also why not just try to educate other young women by having other people like you in lots of different roles and to get their story similar to you and their insights to help inspire and educate others. So just want to say thank you to start with for, uh, for being that catalyst.

Well, Anthony, thank you so much for the invitation. And as you mentioned, it was great to meet you actually post the first podcast that I did. And so that has just been a great way for me to get in touch with so many other people in the industry. And I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Great.

Well, look, let, let's kick it off. And if I can, if I can transport you back in time to your days in college, a lot of our listeners are at university in study and they're thinking, and a lot of pressure about, oh, what career am I gonna take? Do I need to make decisions now that are gonna shape my entire future? So I'd love to go back to your college days and take it from there all the way through to your time at Cargill.

Sure, absolutely. So I, um, I grew up in a small mining town in Northern Minnesota and then went to a small university, not super well known, called Bemidji State. Um, and I went to be a math teacher, so I did not go in knowing that I was going to become a commodity trader. I, I went to be a math teacher. And through my time in college, I recognized that teaching wasn't really where I wanted to start my career. I took an accounting class for fun. And while most of my colleagues were struggling with, you know, T-charts and debits and credits, that came very natural to me. And so I took a couple more business classes, some economics and finance classes, and found myself pivoting into the business school and ending with a degree actually in accounting. with a minor in, in math and a coaching specialist. So that's my journey through college. Um, but I really didn't know what I wanted to do. In fact, most of my college career, I just kept figuring out what I didn't want to do. So I knew I didn't want to go into teaching, which I initially thought I wanted to do. I didn't want to do any public accounting, even though I was getting an accounting degree, and I didn't want to go into audit. And so A lot of the concerns I think a lot of the students are dealing with were running through my head and I was, you know, ticking off things I didn't want to do, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. And Cargill came to my university my junior year to recruit for interns and I signed up. I had never heard about the company, which is crazy since they are a Minnesota-based company. Signed up for the interviews and ended up being one of two selected for accounting and finance interns. Summer. And so that was my first foray into Cargill. I was supposed to be an accountant, but a few weeks before my internship started, one of their credit analysts quit. And so they actually decided to instead have the intern do it. So my internship was a bit more hands-on than most internships are, where I actually was taking a full-time real job for the summer as a junior credit analyst for the Energy Groups based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And what was interesting about that internship in addition to being, you know, really in a full-time impactful job is I was seated on the center of the trade floor. And so that experience for me is what really made me decide, you know what, for all the things I didn't want to do, that's what I want to do. Someday I want to be a trader. And so that was my moment of aha, that's what I want to do. So after I completed my internship, I was offered a job full-time. Um, once I graduated as an accountant with Cargill, so I took it and very quickly on in my full-time job as an accountant, I realized I did not like that environment. I was sitting in a cube. I wasn't on the center of the trade floor anymore. Um, and I really wanted to work towards that trading career. And so Over the next year, I did my job very well, but I really tried to insert myself into projects that involve the traders, learn as much as I could about what they did so that when that first opportunity to get an entry-level job as a real-time energy trader came up, um, not only was I applying, but I also had a proven track record that demonstrated some of the things that I was doing to really put myself in the best position to get that opportunity. And so my first job trading was a real-time energy trader based in Minneapolis. And we didn't have any physical assets. So that was a very, you know, you see spreads, you see opportunities, you put the deals together and you reap the benefits. It was the harder you worked, the more you made type of environment. And it taught me so much about physical markets and, you know, how important relationships are in this business. Industry. And then from there, I moved on to a day-ahead trader as, as an energy trader trading the Pacific Northwest. From there, I moved on to a term trader, so I was trading the U.S. western power and gas markets. And then my last role in trading in energy, I was the regional trading manager for the U.S. and Canada for a power and gas business. From there, I was asked to take a step out of trading. I did not want to do it, but a lot of really smart people in my inner circle said, hey, this is opportunity for you. So I took a step out of trading and I was the director of marketing and origination for the energy groups. Um, I was part of a couple big projects, uh, looking at M&As and, um, some of the investment banks that were divesting from the physical, um, energy markets at the time. And so I got to work on some really cool projects, um, acquire some of those, uh, physical books for Cargill. And then I went on maternity leave with my fourth child. And while on maternity leave, I got an opportunity, um, to apply for a job in the agriculture side of Cargill. So more what Cargill's known for, for the corn milling trading made for North America. And so I made that big jump and pivot. Maybe we'll get into some of those details later. But that for me was a big move because I really had no background in agriculture. And here I was leading a large team that was originating all the grains or assets, as well as managing all of the financial risks for the business. As well as our customers. So from there, then I moved over to the oil side of agriculture, and I was the North America lead for oils and fats. And then my last role at Cargill before leaving a year and a half ago was the global trading director for oils and fats business, where I was responsible for all of the physical and financial origination, trading, sustainability for that global business.

Wow. So I was just thinking, there must have been so many periods during that when you were talking the earlier part where you're rotating, going from different areas of the business and then going to dealing with completely off the trading desk, doing, talking M&A and company-wide business orientated, and then moving again. There must be so many periods where you felt I don't have domain interest at this point. Can I do this? Is this a big, this is a big undertaking of an area where I didn't know. So, 'cause am I right? You had a sporting element background to your young childhood. So a lot of these confidence to be able to be in an unfamiliar situation and be able to adapt and learn. Is there any parallels there that you think, or you already kind of had? From that childhood experience?

Yeah, so I grew up playing a variety of sports. I grew up in a small town, so in my small town, I was able to be a 3-sport athlete. So, I grew up playing volleyball and basketball and softball and tried a bunch of other sports growing up too. I was recruited to play D1 softball and chose to play D2 volleyball because I enjoyed it more. And because then they paid me, the school paid me to go to school there. So, there's a financial component too. But to your question about did growing up in sports later on helped benefit me and, and some of the experience I had. I would say absolutely. I am a huge proponent of kids in sports and other extracurricular activities, whether it's the arts, just because I think it teaches you so many life lessons that are applicable later in life. It teaches you about failure and how to respond and rebound from failure and how to take lessons learned and apply them in the future. It teaches you about how to be a member of a team, even if you you know, enjoy every single one of your teammates, how do you work together to achieve a common goal? It teaches you about goal setting. So absolutely, I think a lot of the experiences that I had in my childhood growing up, um, and, and still today— I mean, today you can talk about like my role being a parent and some of the parallels that you learn from dealing with your kids. And, you know, whether it's patience or, you know, organization and structure, I mean, so many of those things can be applied in areas of your life. And I think that's what's so amazing when you think about, you know, people that you bring on teams. Everybody has their own unique backgrounds and experiences, and it's really about how do you leverage those experiences and apply them to, to be super strong in, in the role that you're doing.

Maybe we could talk to start with a little bit about specifically commodity trading. And the reason why I say that is because a lot of university students are quite narrowly channeled into typically thinking about investment banks, uh, asset managers, these more traditional-based roles, whether it be a market-oriented in trading more traditional assets like global macro, things like that, or in banking. There's not too much visibility that I see working with students over the specificity of commodity markets and a career in commodity trading. So perhaps could you explain a little bit more about, I know you mentioned some of those different desks, but to kind of decode it and the different roles that exist and why you found commodities to be so uniquely interesting.

Yeah. Um, commodities are in essence physical. So there is a, there's a physical component to trading commodities that make them uniquely different than some of the other, you know, equities or indices that you would trade if, um, you know, you may be an investment bank or whatnot. And so right there, there's this unique component where there is an actual physical commodity that you are moving from point A to point B. And if I think about my energy days, uh, it's a little bit harder to, to physically see, you know, the electrons moving across the transmission lines, but you can go visit a power plant and you can see how the power is generated. Or very specifically, I ran a hydro facility in one of my roles, and I went to the facility because I wanted to understand how it operated. Because when you talk about running, you know, holding water back in the dam and storage and how much storage that you can hold to take advantage of maybe spreads at a different point of the day, all of those things have a physical, real component. I and I, I talked about on the last podcast I was on where I would attend meetings for the fisheries because they had these periods in time where salmon were spawning and they had to keep water levels and flow at a certain rate. And that obviously impacted how I was physically positioning my physical side of the equation. And then also understanding that in commodities, those physical positions end up reconciling on the derivative that you're trading. And so if you understand what the physical limitations are in commodities, it might not make sense to how, um, the market perceives it on the financial side. But if you truly understand what the physical limitations are, maybe on unload rates in a port, um, or, you know, how much you can, you can hold in a storage facility, then you have a really unique advantage to position yourself in the derivatives market to maximize the value that you have in your trade. And so, what did my days look like? I mean, in the physical world, and I'll go to the agriculture side where we actually had a lot of the steel on the ground assets. So we had like the corn mills, we had the crush facilities, we had the packaging, the refineries and the packaging facilities that went to the end customers. And what did it look like? I would start with a position every day, which would be a compilation of everything that myself or my team traded. So if we bought, let's say, oil, you know, on CBOT, and so we were long, but maybe there was sales that were done by our salespeople to an end-user customer, all of those positions boiled down to the oil component. Would, would hit my position. And then every day we would start the day with what happened overnight, what happened in the overnight markets, what's going on in the world, figuring out what the view would be on where the market was going to go. We'll just take soybean oil for an example. And then making sure our position was accurate, and then trading the position, having a game plan as the market went on. But then most of my days when I was a trading leader was also talking to all of the other you know, functions within the business to make that whole system work. So making sure that supply chain was on point with what our, what our plan was, making sure that, you know, logistics was, was working out, that we had the tank space, the rail cars, making sure that our operations leads at the facilities were all seeing the same plan, making sure that our salespeople had what they needed to make sure that they were successful in selling to our customers, you know, making making sure on my team on the origination side that was facing the farmers that we were getting the physical goods. So there's a lot more in the commodities world than just trading derivatives on the screen that go into making sure not only your trading positions are successful, but that the business is successful as well. And I think one of the reasons why some of the big majors have an advantage in trading these markets is because they do see the full physical supply chain as well.

If you were going to distill all of that down then into a raw skill set as to what that trader needs. So let's say there's people listening who don't know a lot of the technical parts, but they definitely understand themselves and the skills that they might possess.

Mm-hmm.

What, in order to facilitate what you described, and I understand there's probably different types of roles that sit within these teams. But to you on the trading side, what would that be?

Yeah, I will, I will caveat this with, I don't think that there's one, you know, perfect trader description. And if you meet all of these things, you're going to be an excellent trader. But some of the things that I have seen throughout my 20 years in the teams that I've had and those that have been really successful, I think the number one thing is hunger. So having this drive to consistently, you know, be at the top of your game as a trader. So that means you need to have a learning mindset, right? You need to be, um, really wanting to go in and, um, make the best decisions every day, right? This is, this is not a job where you can, you know, take, take a step back and, and just let it go for a week. You really need to come in and be hungry to do that job every day, um, and, and learn more. If I go back to my very first job as a real-time energy trader, um, there was a direct correlation to the harder I worked and the more I knew about the market, especially if I knew more than others, or if I tried to figure out something, a different way to move megawatts. If I wanted to buy 50 megawatts from mid-sea and sell 50 megawatts to Four Corners, but there wasn't 50 megawatts of transmission on one path, but I could get it there on 3 or 4 different paths because I understood the entire grid and I could piecemeal it together. And so I could capture that where most traders would only do the 15 megawatts on the main path. Those were the direct correlations that I would see as a result of the effort I was putting in. So number one, be hungry and be willing to go and do things that others aren't. Um, because that's also what sets you apart. Number 2, I would say be humble. Um, you really can't have a big ego, and I think the second you do, um, if, if, if you're not getting knocked down by, by, you know, the market, um, then you're probably not putting on big enough positions. Because there are definitely times that the market can be very humbling, and so it's being really excited when you, when you have big wins or big trades but not gloating about them, because the market can give and the market can take away. And I think that helps keep you more moderated when you're going through the tough times and able to weather the storm and continue to build upon the good times. So I would say be super humble and also be a team player. You know, I don't think it's said enough. I think in trading, those that are the best are the ones that are, you know, willing to share information and have those debates and help others along the way, and not just sitting there siloed and keeping all the information to themselves. Um, the third one I talked about on the first podcast I was on was be disciplined. Um, those little things that can just cut up traders because you've got maybe sloppy record keeping, or, you know, you aren't getting all of your confirm down or whatever it is. Just make sure that you're disciplined, have your house in order, make sure you have a game plan every day. It's much easier to execute when there's so much information flying at you if you're disciplined from the start. Um, you need to have a healthy appetite for risk. So you do need to be able to deploy risk when those opportunities are there. Um, but that doesn't mean that it's not a calculated risk. And I think sometimes when we talk about trading and you say, oh, that trader has a big appetite for risk, that's often associated with, oh, they're just, they're just taking a bet like you would when you go to the casino. And it really does need to be an informed risk appetite, but, but you can take big risks and you do need to have a fairly healthy appetite or have the ability to build it over time. I think that's definitely something that I've built over time. And then last, I would say you need to be able to digest all of this information that's coming at you every single day. You got to be able to digest it, decipher what's important, and then make a decision. And you have to be okay with making a decision with incomplete information. You have to be okay with making decisions that might be wrong. You have to decide. And I think a lot of times traders can get hung up on that last piece of making a decision and moving forward. And even if that decision means closing a losing trade, right? You'll hear first loss is the best loss. So decipher information, figure out what's important, and then make a decision.

Is there any, like, tactics that you've used personally or that you've helped mentor with other people to achieve these things you described? Because I imagine a lot of people come in and they've never really— they might have taken risk in their life but never in the sense of what specifically what we're talking about with trading. So what have you seen as tactical ways to build out that skill set?

Yeah, so I I don't want this to be misconstrued as you're going to go and be like this big swinging trader on day one, or that you need to be. I mean, part of it is just, you know, I think there is a wealth of, um, inexperience and, you know, going through markets and learning from them. So part of it is back to that humility piece, making sure that you're learning from the mistakes or the bad decisions You know, if you're doing a really good job of every day coming up with your own view on the market and making a game plan and then executing it and then going back and seeing if you did what you said you were going to do and if you didn't, why? Like, that's just this continuous learning, continuous improvement that you can do for yourself every day. That's very easy. That takes, you know, 10 minutes at the beginning of the day and 10 minutes at the end of the day. That can make a world of a difference. You know, also being able to have those debates with others is a great way to learn. It's a great way to learn things that you don't know. It's a great way to build confidence in your position. So seek out others that have a different view on the markets and have those debates. You don't have to agree at the end, But it should give you that barometer and level of confidence on, okay, how much risk am I going to deploy? You, you're either going to come out of those discussions more confident than you were going in, or maybe less. And maybe you still deploy the position, but maybe you're not putting on, you know, 70% of your total risk limits now. Maybe you're putting on 30% because after having a few debates or discussions about the markets, there's some other things you weren't considering that maybe you need to weight higher. So I mean, I think having that continuous learning mindset, doing those tactical things like having your own view first— if you don't have your own view first, I don't really think anything else matters because I don't think then you're developing your trading style. And what's super fun about trading is there's a bunch of different trading styles that can be very successful, and you, you get to create your own. You get to figure out what works for you. Um, and that's trial and error, just like when you're learning to ride a bike when you're a kid, right? So again, it's deploying those things and ways that you learned when you were in school into the real world. And that's what makes commodity trading so fun is you get to learn stuff every day and every day is different. And if that's exciting to you, this is definitely a space you want to check out.

Yeah. I mean, from, from as you're describing this, it's like, it's making me almost excited to want to you know, working in markets. But how do you manage then? Because this is a question I get from, from students, is are you all invested in your career then earlier on in your 20s because you have the freedom to be selfish, almost to fully give yourself to learning those grid patterns and power supply routes and having that ability to have time? Does that change over the course of your career, and how do you learn to switch between having some you time to, uh, I guess recalibrate, let your muscles both physically and mentally rest to go again. Did you, did, were you, did you naturally have that skill or did you have to learn to get the balance right?

I'm still learning. I don't, I mean, I really, I'm still learning. I, you know, I think it just like everything, it ebbs and flows, right? When you, whenever you come into a new job, there's— you have a lot to learn. And so, you know, really getting up to speed, getting up that learning curve, the faster you can get up that learning curve, right? Like, that's going to be there anytime you take a new role. And so I think you need to know that going in, right? And then I think over time, if you're in that role for a while, which most people are in roles for at least a few years, right, a lot of the things that you had to learn at the beginning to get up to speed, you don't. And so then you have more space and time to moderate how much you want to take on to learn new things, right? And that, that can be dictated by the markets. So, you know, oftentimes traders, you know, their, their days are heavily determined by how active the markets are. And so you might have a plan that you want to spend a few hours, you know, researching something one day and the market might have a different idea. It might be, you know, highly volatile that day. And you're spending your time just managing your position, right? And so I think just paying attention to, um, you know, your energy and, and, and what the market's giving you, and having that like long-term plan of things that you want to do or skills that you want to build, but not getting so hung up on the timeline, which I think is also very relatable to your career too. As I mentioned, I had no idea about commodity trading and I didn't have this vision of like, I for sure want to do this until I was in an environment that I was like, ah, that's it. Right. But even from then in the rest of my career and, and still today, I haven't very much been hung up on like this specific thing, but just what are the feelings that I want to be having when I'm in these roles? What are the skills that I want to pick up? What are the things that I want to do and what gives me energy and what gets me super excited to get up every day and do what I'm doing? Cool.

And what— one of the things I wanted to ask you was, given your almost rotation around different parts of the business and then also becoming more senior as that journey's gone on, is this idea of imposter syndrome. I'm— I know with a lot of organizations there can be lots of pushes for more diverse hiring at the lower levels, but as you go up, it tends to then dilute slightly in terms of having that visibility of seniority and leadership with, with women. And then you being in the end in that role, and maybe there's not others that you can look across over your shoulder and see the same. So how, how, how, I guess imposter syndrome is the core of the question. Does that ever go away? How do you manage that? And what's your view on that?

Yeah, I don't know if imposter syndrome ever really goes away. So if we're talking about the same definition, it's like feeling like I'm an imposter here, I don't belong. I think it's self-doubt, like those thoughts can creep up in your head. I think, you know, as you move on in your career or as you age, or I do think you learn, you know, skills and tactics to deal with those feelings and, you know, maybe either not have them creep up so frequently or turn, you know, that doubt into like determination. Um, so I think imposter syndrome or self-doubt, I think it exists in many people. And I think the difference between those that, you know, continue to be successful, whether it's in their current jobs or moving up the ladder, because you can be just as successful staying in one or two jobs for your career, you know, because that's what you want to do, or moving up, you know, into more leadership positions. I don't think that success is defined by the level that you're at in the organization. But I think it's about, you know, are you leaning in to those feelings and instead of doubts, getting more and more determined? Or are you believing, you know, that self-doubt or like, I don't believe here and belong here and just trying to fit in? Because I don't— I did, I posted something on LinkedIn maybe a few weeks ago or a month ago about like being you. And I think for me, when I stopped trying so hard to like fit in, when I was like the only female trader, one of two female traders on the energy floor, and I was trying so hard to just fit in and not be seen as like this anomaly, you know, young female trader in energy. Um, and I, I didn't want to be a part of the Women's Network initially because I thought that would make me like stick out more. And that the last thing I needed was another sign saying different. And so I was trying so hard to fit in. And I think once I embraced what I was bringing to the table and how, you know, my experiences and, you know, being a female, just like being a male, how like what, what that brought to the table. Once I started really having that confidence, I think that's when my career really took off. And so I would say I think those feelings are always there. I don't, I don't belong here or I need to do something really hard to fit in. But once I started being really confident in who I was and what I was doing. And there was a lot of things, you know, when I was going through my, my energy career, and, you know, I was the first one to have, um, a first female trader to have a baby. And, um, just dealing with that, um, those moments I think helped build me, build the confidence that like, I need to be me and not try to be somebody I'm not. And I do belong here even though I might look really different from everyone else. I mean, there was another time a little bit later in my career and Cargill, we were doing, it was, there was a year where we had the 5 Cs, the 5 core capabilities. And one of them was trading risk management. And so they had asked these senior trading leaders to come and do this big, you know, round table, if you will, for the company on the importance of trading risk management. And I was one of the people selected and we up on the big stage in the corporate headquarters and the broadcast was global. And afterwards, some of the first comments I got was, wow, you were the only female. And, you know, the other 4 were, you know, white male in their 50s. And that for me was really disappointing that that's what people saw versus the message that I was giving because I think I had at that point I had felt like I had belonged. And so it wasn't so stark to me that I was the only female sitting up on that stage, but to others watching, it was still a stark, you know, reality that, you know, that it was so different to have just one female up there. And so, you know, I think over time you learn that Having those feelings of self-doubt or I don't belong here really don't have a place in helping propel you in your career. And having the confidence that you've had all along in, in your life to get you where you are is what is going to continue to get you where you are going. And just leaning into that value is super important. Um, and it's not always about fitting in.

Do you think that women are held to a different standard not, not to kind of point fingers, but do you think that there's certain behaviors that are expected because you're a woman where as a man, let's say, the natural characteristic is being assertive is a good thing, whereas for a woman it might be classified slightly different where, well, that's not acting within the way that would be societal norm. Is that something that's a conscious thing as a woman within a trading floor which is predominantly historically been quite male orientated?

Yeah, I don't, I don't think women are held to a different standard, at least not intentionally. I really don't. I think it's more, um, I think that the perception of, of how women, um, come across or maybe project themselves especially if it is more, you know, stereotypically characteristic of a male, like an aggressive female. I think sometimes that is misunderstood by others. And I do think some of those traditionally, you know, male characteristics of being aggressive or assertive or determined, you know, some of maybe those hard traits can be very beneficial in trading. At times. And I think sometimes when women display those characteristics, they might be perceived differently. So, I don't think we're held to a different standard. I just think because you're not— because people, I don't think in society are as used to women having some of those stronger characteristics on display, especially when they're needed in trading and negotiations at times. I think then they can be misperceived. In, in a negative light, but not always. And I would say to counterbalance that, I think, you know, stereotypically women have a lot of, you know, softer, empathetic type of feelings too, which I would say when people, you know, work with me, they don't actually probably see it up front because they see this like very, you know, determined, hard-nosed trader. But I think I have the unique benefit too of being a female and now being a mother and having some of those other characteristics. That I can bring out, especially when I'm building relationships, which going back to what I said at the beginning is super important in trading and business, having those relationships. And I think that in some ways also gives me an edge. And so I don't think that we're held to different standards. I think society puts, you know, different expectations on on genders or, or people. It could be ages of, you know, people as well. Um, I think it's just how we're perceived. And again, I think that that's okay. And I think if, if it gets in the way, if there's a bunch of unconscious bias, I think it takes strong leaders to call it out and knock it down and dispel it.

Right. And you mentioned their relationships being a super important skill, and I couldn't agree more. In whatever career you go on to have, it's going to be highly beneficial. And I think a lot of young people, uh, the education system doesn't really equip you in that way. It's not— it's normally teaching you in theoretical science of your subject rather than these people skills, so to speak. So I did catch one of your excellent pieces you share on LinkedIn And anyone listening, you know, you should definitely follow Christine. She puts out some really interesting insights. And you talked about networking because this is something that students, I feel, are told to do without much instruction to give me the actual details of this game plan. And I picked up something that you wrote, which was, it's kind of like a trading strategy where it's a lot of these things you described before. You've got to have discipline, analysis. Analysis, planning, execution. And I just wondered that, how do you then, could you describe that process a little bit more to help inform some of the listeners about, well, what does that strategy look like and what could be helpful to them?

Yeah, so, um, this is something I did not know when I left college, or at least I did not realize the importance of networking, um, until I was several years into my career. Actually, it was joining the Women's Network and then being nominated and elected as the lead for one of the chapters initially when I was in energy, that really opened my eyes to how powerful networking can truly be because I was surrounded by so many amazing women and actually some men that were really good at it. And I realized I was really bad at it. So, a lot of what I'll share has been learned by people that, you know, I learned from. And one of the big things is just to have a game plan of like, what are, you know, skills or area— we talked about this just a little bit ago, like what type of skills do you want to learn in the future? Or what kind of experiences do you want to have? Or if you think back to feedback that you've gotten from teachers when you're in college or your first couple of managers on areas of improvement, as well as your strengths. Like, what, what are those things? So write them all down, like physically write them down. Figure out what ones you want to work on, you know, in the, in the near term, and seek out individuals that are really good at them. And that requires having conversations with a lot of people to get to the right individuals that are really good at those skills you want to pick up. And, and because of that, I think, you know, it's, it's uncomfortable for a lot of people to approach somebody that they don't know to have a conversation and ask for help. Right? First of all, you need to be okay with approaching somebody you don't know. Or maybe you got the referral. And so somebody made an introduction, but it's still like this. I think it's, it still can be awkward, even for me to reach out, right? Because even if you're asking for help or advice, I think it, you know, you need to have— you have to be humble and, and willing to be, you know, receptive. You don't have to take their advice, but at least being able to listen and receive. So write down what you want to do, what you want to learn. Go seek out people, which means you have to ask other people that you do know if they know somebody who's really good at these things. You know, or can help you with that. Sit down with those people, have a plan before you do of what are the 1 or 2 or 3 things that you want to ask them and seek advice on. And then at the end, also making sure when you're having those networking conversations that they're mutually beneficial, right? That you're also providing that value back to them. And I think a lot of times, especially when you've got You know, somebody that's 1, 2, or 3 years into their career and they're talking to somebody that's like 20, 25, 30 years into their career and they're, they're wondering like, how could I possibly provide any value to this, you know, person that's been in their career for 30 years? But there are, there's so many things that I have learned from people that I have mentored or given advice to as I've become more senior. Little things like what's the perception of my brand from somebody fresh out of college? Or, you know, what are the issues that you're thinking about in your career? Or what do you see? Because there's one thing to have an idea of here's what I'm putting out there, or here's what I'm trying to do as a leader. There's another thing, which is the reality of how it's being received. And so, I think knowing that you can provide, you know, value too is super important. And I think makes people more willing to have those conversations with you. And then don't be afraid to ask, you know, if there's anybody else they would suggest you meeting with, and that's sort of how you continue to build your network. So have that plan. I learned this tip probably 10 years into my career about how to manage a calendar. Because a lot of times you get super wrapped up in all of your, you know, work meetings and things you're doing. And then next thing you know, you look up and it's been 2 years and you really haven't done anything to personally develop yourself. And one of my colleagues was like, oh, well, don't you color code your calendar? Seems super simple, right? Like, no, I don't. And they said you should color code your calendar based on like what type of activity you do. So, are you doing like a daily activity? Is this like a, you know, is this a personal development? Is this a development for others? And so, then when you look out on your week ahead, you see how much time you're spending. You can really be very prescriptive about how much time and be really intentional with what you're doing. And that was life-changing for me and so simple. And it might not work for everybody. But for me, that was one of those, oh, That's just such a simple way to say, yes, I'm doing these things too. I'm investing in myself as well. And then make sure that you're checking back on that list that you made and you can pivot if things change or you get different feedback and that's okay too.

Yeah, no, I love that, that actual practical advice where something quite trivial and small it might seem can have such a big impact. On that for sure. Definitely, like you said, a lot of the interactions I have with young people I meet feel a large degree of intimidation. So I'm really happy that you touched on that. When they're new and they feel like, well, why would someone experienced care about what I have to say? So I definitely think that that's a recurring thing that I hear from students. And something else that that, um, also that, that you were talking about and that I often try to guide people is normally with networking, there's what I call a gatekeeper, which can often be, as you said, you seek out someone who potentially not only could add value to you, but they by network effect will also know a lot of people. Uh, and often these can be recruiters because recruiters know a lot of people through the nature of their job. Uh, and often I think all the students will go straight to a managing director level of a very specific role and almost devalue HR staff, uh, because that's not a trader. And so yeah, having an open mind I think is, is really important. So yeah, great to, to get your, your take on that. And a couple of other final questions then, and not to put you too much in a, a tight spot, but often On a similar vein to as I just said, often I think young people will look at someone like you and go on your LinkedIn profile and just go, wow, you smashed it, and not understand that you've had probably multiple and very large challenges throughout this career. And I'd just like to understand, do you think that there's a particular challenge that you've had that's fundamentally shaped your approach to trading or to leadership?

Oh yes, this is going to make me— this brings out the vulnerability for sure.

I'm not Oprah, so don't worry.

Yeah, I mean, there was definitely a lot of challenges in my career and in some ways, there still are and definitely some defining moments. You know, when I was in energy, I, for a long time, I dealt with the imposter syndrome and really tried to fit in. So we talked about that. That was really challenging for me. You know, I also in energy, and my husband and I were actually talking about this last night on just, you know, my career as I was trying to think about like what I, anything that I might want to say today. And, you know, Well, and I met my husband trading energy, so we, he's, he's still an energy trader, but we were talking about how when we were in energy trading, we were, we were incentivized to hit singles. So it was like, you didn't want to stand out too much. You wanted to be good, not great. And we didn't really, we weren't, we weren't, we didn't benefit from swinging for a home run. Um, and I think that when I recognized that I wanted to spread my wings outside of the Energy Group, um, one of the things that I was looking for was someone that could teach me how to trade and put on big positions. And back to that strategic networking, um, I found someone that was like this big swinging trader in Cargill. Um, you know, the perception was like sometimes he was, you know, reckless, but she wasn't reckless. It was always calculated, but perception can be reality at points. Um, and so I actually went to work for him. That's the guy I went to work for, um, when I went to corn milling. Um, and he taught me so much, but it was also very humbling about like, if you like a position, do you love it? So he taught me, uh, and it was, and it was a time to be very vulnerable because, um, it really shook my— not shook, but it really challenged my confidence as a trader, right? Like you say you were good at energy and you were, but now you have to prove it again. And for me, that was, um, that was really challenging. And so sometimes I would, um, come back from a day off and he would double my position while I was gone, um, as a way to just teach me that, like, you said you were highly confident, yet you were only deploying 40% of your risk when you should only deploy 80%, right? And so, um, I had learned to become like a, a big risk taker when it mattered. And back to some challenges though, that doesn't always work out for you. So COVID was a fun lesson. We had had some pretty long positions on in oil. And I think, you think back to those days, I don't think anybody really thought that, you know, it was going to come out of Asia and impact the rest of the world. I mean, I remember being in India when we were trying to send supplies out of India to our colleagues in Southeast Asia, because they were dealing with COVID thinking it wasn't going to come to India. And the day I'm leaving India to fly home is the first case in India, right? And so back then we didn't, I don't think, realize the impact it was going to have on the markets. But needless to say, all of the markets completely crashed. And that was a really big lesson for me. I was the North America lead for oil at the time on how quickly the market can take things away. From you, um, and how impactful like spreads can be on your position too, which seem to be a little bit safer bets. They, they don't— they're not always when the market is really making these moves on black swan events. Um, but on the flip side of that, if you learn from your experiences and your mistakes— there was another big negative I had when I was trading corn, and we had this really big position on based on what we thought was going to happen with the S&P um, when the WASDE came out, um, and the WASDE printed what we expected, but the market did not react how we expected. Um, and so I took those two experiences, and when I was the global trading lead for oils, um, the S&D for oil was really, really soft, really weak. Um, and so naturally then, if, if you've got like a very, very soft S&D, a very heavy S&D, you typically want to be short. But what was happening at the at same time was all of this global turmoil and escalation leading up to the invasion of Russia into Ukraine. And so I really, really, really wanted us to position ourselves long, so long in fact that I asked for extended limits. And I think it was because of some of those learnings and those challenging times in my career where I was I was humble enough to recognize when, when we had wrong positions and, and make the decisions to get out of trades or to get on the other sides. That also gave me the confidence when to put on big risk on the other side, even in the face of maybe like an S&D or, you know, a different opinion of my colleagues. And so I think from all of the challenges, you know, being truthful to yourself, looking in the mirror, you know, first loss is the best loss, or things of that nature. Have really helped shape me as a trader, have shaped me as a leader, and, and have the confidence, um, you know, to lead through challenging times with more of a, you know, calm demeanor. Because, you know, you know, you know that day is going to pass. You can have a short memory. If you can come every day with a clear mind, you know, you've done a lot to get you where you are, and that's going to continue to bring you forward.

Yeah, it's not fatal in terms of you can come back, that for sure. And one of the things you mentioned there, it sounded like, uh, a key turning point was a mentor, like a good mentor that pushed you, that gave you that extra nudge that perhaps you never even maybe wanted or even knew you had to do to step to the next level. So maybe you could just talk to me a little bit about your view on finding a good mentor. And how important that is.

Yeah, mentors have to be invested in you. So I think when you're meeting people and you're thinking about like— and I feel— I view mentors as like, if you think about like you're in the center and there's different circles around you, right? That inner circle, like your personal board of directors, those are sort of your key mentors, the people that like you're going to go to for advice. And you want those people to be the people that are going to tell you the absolute truth, especially when you don't want to hear it, are going to challenge you to be better, are you going to challenge you to think differently, you know, are going to point out your blind spots. That's, that's who you want to look for, for your, for your inner circle, your mentors. I think about your network is sort of like those next couple circles out. Right? Like, these are people that you have met that, you know, may or may not provide you tangible value today that you can point to, but might in the future, either with connection that they have, or maybe something, maybe a skill set they have that you don't need now, but maybe you do in the future. And so those, like, outer circles, you want to continue to, like, build and nourish and keep fresh. Right. So I think one of the biggest wastes is when someone gets introduced to someone else in their network and they don't follow up ever again. Right. Because then that connection is sort of lost. So that's how I think about like your— and sometimes somebody in your extended network can end up becoming one of your mentors in the future. And that's really— or vice versa. You can become a mentor of theirs. You don't always have to say yes to somebody that's prescribed as your mentor. So I had an experience where they were matching us up with mentors, all of us in leadership when I was in Corn Mine. And I got matched up with somebody that I, it was just not a good vibe. I did not, I, I just did not see the value. And so I chose to say no. I, I chose to not continue on with that partnership from a mentor perspective. Like, obviously we can still meet, but for me, I think paying attention to what is right for you makes a lot of sense too. And then there's this other word called sponsor, which you hear about a lot, and those are the people that are going to talk about you and bring your name forward, that they, they're the ones that can repeat and articulate like your elevator speech when you're not there. And those people are often the ones that help open the doors for you. Those combined with your mentors, because if there's one other thing that we probably haven't talked about in terms of things you can do for yourself is having a really good elevator speech. And an elevator speech is basically if you are with somebody in the amount of time it takes for an elevator to go, you know, from the 1st to the 10th floor, like a minute and a half, call it minute and a half. What do you want people to know about you, your experiences, your strengths, and what you're interested in doing next? And I think that is super important to refine so that when you're meeting different people and expanding your network, if there's one thing they can take away is that. Because sometimes you don't even know the sponsors you have until you look back. Because they're not as— they're not so much people that you're seeking out like, can you be my sponsor, so much as like people that have heard your story or have experienced working with you and are going to put your name out there for those next experiences. Um, and, and those people are super valuable too, and you often don't know until you look back. And so Making sure that they understand your background, your experience, what you want, where you're wanting to go, is super important.

And being successful in the workplace, um, involves a balance of creating, building your brand, having those sponsors speak on your behalf, but also having the technical capability just facilitating your role. I think at university, very rarely if ever. And also when students, I think, are really involved in application processes for different companies, they're only thinking about the job at hand, not actually all the other stuff that needs to happen in parallel to see you come good in terms of having success and promotions and so on. So yeah, is there any words of advice you could share in terms of how to best operate within that environment when you are working? Because I think a lot of students are so absorbed in the pre-working phase, which obviously applications are so intense nowadays. But when you actually get there, sometimes I feel like with a lot of students I mentor, they arrive and they're like, oh, I made it. And then you're like, okay, the job's only just begun now at this point. And it's more than just doing your thing that you are doing. It's about, you know, communicating, letting sure people are understanding what you're doing. Any insight on that?

I, I still think, and we haven't really even talked about it, that everything, all the things we talked about with networking and, you know, all these things, building good relationships, that all matters. But it only matters if you are also doing a really good job at your job. So the technical side of how you're doing, and actually that starts from being a student, right? Because you can't pass your class if you don't get a good grade, right? And you can't get into an MBA program or, you know, get a special certification if you're not at the upper level of your class, or, you know, at least getting good grades, getting good accolades. And so that base skill set, right, do a good job at your job, has to transfer into the workplace for all these other things that we've talked about. To make to matter. Because if you're just going about networking and you're not doing your job, that's not going to get you anywhere either. Because inevitably, if somebody wants to hire you for another job, they're going to talk to your current boss and they're going to be like, well, this person is spending so much time networking that they're not doing their job and I need them to do their job first. Right? So we haven't really talked about it and I don't want to get done without emphasizing like, the core of what, you know, you learn when you're going to school. And I tell my kids all the time, like, work hard, get good grades. And if you work hard at learning to read, it's going to make life easier. And if you work hard at, like, learning your multiplication tables, it's going to make everything easier. Because when you're a trader and you're doing everything, you gotta do all the math in your head, it's really easy because you've been building on those skills through your whole life. And so number one, do a good and honestly a great job, excel at the current job you have. That would be number one. So work really hard at that. Um, and the next piece of advice is really just, um, continue to have that like learner hungry mindset, but not worry so much about the next job. Or if you don't meet it, but you don't get to that next level by a certain timeline. Right? I think those that I've seen be super successful are able to sort of let go of like, this is the perfect plan I had, and instead go with where things are taking them because oftentimes they have, they're demonstrating flexibility and agility, or they're willing to take a risk in going into something that maybe they hadn't thought about before. I had never thought about commodity trading, um, you know, and so sometimes that willingness to be open to new opportunities, which will build a different skill set and make you more well-rounded and build another transferable skill, I think that's really important. And, you know, you talked about the university students and like all these applications and everything they're doing and what's on paper. And I've hired a lot of people. And yes, obviously you need to have a resume that gets you in the door, but at the end of the day, it's the conversations that you're having with those hiring managers that are going to actually land you the job or the next job. And so it goes back to those communication skills and building relationships and being relatable and being able to have a conversation and be a real person, right? I, I think most hiring managers want somebody that like is going to constantly learn and be hungry and provide value and have a different perspective. You know, I think oftentimes students come outta college and they think there's a manual for their job. And they face the harsh reality that like, no, I'm not giving you a rubric to follow. Here's the outcome I want, and you need to use your brain and all of your skill sets that you've built up until this point to get to the outcome. But I'm not going to tell you how to get there. And I would say most jobs, at least in the business world or in the finance world, are like that. And so those that are the most successful are are able to draw from all of those experiences, whether it's childhood sports or, you know, something that— something they learned in sophomore year econ that are— that are like, you know, propelling them to be the most successful today. And I'm so excited for this next generation of, um, you know, workers into the workplace because they're coming out with so many skills that I don't have. It's super exciting, right? Like, they need— they know how to use technology and AI and all of these tools that, like, I even see my kids using and the way that they, you know, work on, on their applications. But so exciting. It's so exciting. And so bring that to the table because that is needed in the workplace of the future. And don't be afraid to throw out some new ideas, right? Like when I think back and it makes me seem really old now, but some of the transformative things that I did early in my career that just made life simple because I grew up in the days of learning advanced spreadsheet design and like I was in energy and I was in my first little manager job and I had some schedulers and this was at the time that they were like handwriting out like the physical path and then on a piece of paper and then faxing it. And I took that concept and created a spreadsheet that was shareable. And it seems so novel and basic now, but it's those types of things that actually got me noticed. Or like when I moved into corn milling and I was like, hey, we need to have a real-time P&L, and I can build, you know, a macro to do that again on a spreadsheet, because this was like my experience and what I had brought from college and that one advanced spreadsheet design course I took. But like, some of those things really got me noticed because I also was able to leverage what I was really good at. And so don't be afraid to do that. Bring that to the table, you'll be just fine.

Yeah, and I was— you kind of answered my final final question, which, which, which was the, uh, that I'll ask the same to all of the guests in this series, which is talking about one piece of advice you'd give to your younger self starting out. Could be in trading in general, or it could be in trading, could be more general than that. And also to combine it, I know what it's like when you did that previous podcast, there was probably in self-reflection things you wanted to say, and I just want to give you this opportunity. If there is anything that you did want to add, then this would be a good time to finish on.

Well, if I'm taking some of my own advice, if you would have asked me 2 years ago if I would have ever thought about being on a podcast, my answer would be no. Right. And here I am doing my second one and having such a good time doing it. So don't get too hung up on the destination. Enjoy the journey, which sounds super cliché, but it's totally true. It goes by so fast. And so enjoy the journey. Work hard, work hard, work hard. You get to play hard. You reap the benefits. So definitely work hard. Take care of yourself. Maybe to share like a personal moment. I think when you, when you don't take care of yourself, stress can do crazy things to your body. And You know, I firmly believe that you can do it all and have it all, but it doesn't have to be all right now all the time. I get the question a lot from people that are juggling multiple things in their life, full-time job, kids, maybe they're caring for, you know, a sick parent or a variety of other things. And sometimes it's like trying to do it all, all at once, always. And sometimes that can have negative impacts on you. And I had a really crazy scare back in 2015 where I got spinal meningitis, which was really scary and landed me in the hospital. And coming out of it, I found out that it was caused because I had mono that was not detected because I was running myself so ragged because I was trying to do it all and I wasn't paying attention to me either. So, for as ambitious as you want to be, you also really, really, really need to take care of yourself. And you can still get to where you're going and do all the things and have it all, but it doesn't all have to be at one moment. And so making sure that you're taking care of yourself along the way, I think is super important and not just physically, but like, you know, there's a big movement on like bringing awareness to mental health. And I think that's super important too. Just like make sure that you're checking with yourself and taking care of yourself through the journey. And then lastly, just be a good human. I ended with that on my last podcast and I'm going to do it again because I talked about it and like things that I've learned learned from my parents. You know, my dad owns his own business. It's been in the family business for like 100 and— oh, my dad's going to kill me. I want to say 110 years. I might be off by a year or two. But that's where I learned how to like have good relationships. It starts with a handshake. You know, your word is your bond type of thing. And then from my mom, just learning about like the caring for others, you know, showing compassion and empathy. So So, I try to really do bring that forward in everything that I do, and I think it's super important. So, you know, work hard, take care of yourself, be a good human.

Brilliant. What a great finish. And I just want to say again, thank you so much for giving up your time to share your journey, your story. I wanted to start with you, so I'm so happy that we managed to do that. So, thank you so much, Christine.

Thanks for having me.