FOUR Strategies to Combat Imposter Syndrome

Hello and welcome to this session on 4 strategies to combat imposter syndrome. And this came to me as a subject matter because obviously my role, I get to interact with lots of students and lots of different backgrounds, and imposter syndrome is quite a common one. But even more so, um, I come across all, all people from all parts of their career, people who are trying to switch careers, people who are about to take on a very senior management position. So I think imposter syndrome, as much as we'll talk about it from a student, undergrad, master's level, it can carry all the way through your career. So I, I thought in the team, who's best and most qualified to talk about this subject and to hopefully offer tons of value? And I'm glad to be joined by Andrew Osinyemi, who's the head of our recruitment team. So Andrew, perhaps you could just give us a bit about your background and some of the work you do in this area, and then we can get into some of these tactics that people can use.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Anthony Cheung, and it's a pleasure to be on the podcast. Yes, I have run so many sessions on imposter syndrome, and it's mainly because of my background. So I grew up very humble beginnings, had no idea what a career in investment banking would be like. I didn't know, like, you know, what investment banking even looked like, smelled like. Um, you know, none of my friends— only banks I knew is the banks that you saw on a high street, and it was to either deposit your money or take some money out. Those are the banks I knew, right? Uh, so growing up, you know, through, like, some would call it luck, uh, some type of, you know, just going to the right university, meeting the right people um, like having access to different charities, I got an opportunity to have a summer internship in an investment bank in a sales and trading role. Uh, so you can just imagine, you've heard the stories, like, you know, you turn up, you're in your suit, you get to the trading floor and it's just avalanche of noise. People are shouting, they're on their phones. And then there's me looking like, like, where do I fit in? What do I do? And it was a sense of like, I've never experienced this. I've never seen anything like this. No one has prepared me for this experience. And that's when, you know, what we call the so-called imposter syndrome feeling came from, where like, you know, feelings of not being, you know, I'm not, I'm not supposed to be here. I'm not going to perform well here, you know, this is not for me. And that self-doubt kicked in. So, you know, through my experiences overcoming that and becoming successful and also going into different roles in life, you know, I moved from banking into TV. I suffered the same thing when I wanted to become a TV producer, you know, moving from TV into recruitment. Funny enough, I suffered the same thing. So I've been able to get better at this you know, so-called imposter syndrome through various techniques.

A question before we begin: have you seen imposter syndrome increase among, say, students who are going into their first kind of roles in finance, or has it always been apparent, it's just that we talk about it and it's highlighted more now?

Yeah, it's always been apparent. It's always been apparent because I guess it doesn't matter what background you come from, you know, you can come from an affluent background, you come from like the like an underprivileged background, you know, not many people have experienced what it's like to be in an investment bank, uh, sales and trading environment, a mergers acquisition environment, operations, technology, whatever it is. Not many people have experienced. And obviously people have had, you know, recent years have had COVID, so not many people have experienced what it's like to be in a working professional environment. So you get there and you're thrown in and nothing can prepare you for. So that's when the nerves come from. Um, but one of my mentors said, if you're not feeling nervous, you're not stretching yourself, right? So then, so that's the flip side to look at it. You know, you should feel nervous when you're doing something that is stretching yourself. So it's, it's a good thing when you feel those nerves. So I don't want people to let those nerves cripple them. It's actually a good thing. It's just how we overcome those nerves when you start.

Okay, well, on that note, let's, let's dive in on point number 1. You, you mentioned to me about nailing your introduction. So what, what does that mean?

Like they say, it takes 7 seconds for someone to make an impression, right? A first impression, uh, and it takes a lot longer for you to change, uh, a bad impression. So what you can do way before you start your, your internship or or your graduate job, or, or your spring week, whatever you're going into, is perfecting your introduction. So now, what constitutes a good introduction? It's about allowing the, the receiver to feel like you are confident, you're happy to be here, but most importantly, building curiosity. What things can you sprinkle into your introduction to get someone thinking, oh, I really want to know about, about, about this person? So I give people a technique of of having obviously the basics, you know, hi, my name is Andrew, I'm interning in the FX desk, you know, I'm, you know, I'm from Warwick University and I study economics, really, really passionate about being here and I'm ready to, you know, give as much as possible to add value to the team, you know, but in my spare time, just to know a little bit about me, some of my hobbies are I love poker, um, I love, I love I ballet dancing. And a fun fact about me— I love a fun fact because fun fact builds curiosity. You know, I appeared on Britain's Got Talent, um, uh, 4 years ago. You know, I'm making all of this up. I was gonna say, is that true? You get my point? It's about building curiosity where people think, okay, I want to find out a little bit more about you. And all of this can be practiced and perfected way before your internship starts.

So you said 7 seconds. That's very quick, which I can understand because people are quite judgmental. It's a natural human thing. How much of that is your physical presence or your body language as opposed to what you're saying? Where's the balance lie with that?

It's a good, really good point. And I think there's studies of this. I think it's like almost— it's more than 50% is nonverbal. You know, I think some studies are up to like 60 or 70%. And, you know, a lot in a lot of my teaching, I love to go back to the old analogy of, you know, imagine it's your first date. Your first date, you meet someone. By you looking at, you know, their demeanor, is their shoulders hunched over? You know, are they looking confident? Are they looking at you? Are they not looking at you? Are they smiley? You know, is their handshake, is it firm? Or the handshake or hug or whatever it is, you know, on the first date. These are the things similar, is the same thing when you're meeting either your boss or colleague. Are you smiling? You know, do you look presentable, you know, for the division that you're going into? Are you well groomed? Um, you know, something I remember, I made a mistake in my internship that on the first day turned up, my dad said to me, make sure your shoes are polished, right? Make sure your shoes are polished. So my dad, he gave me an old school, old-fashioned polish. It was like, I think it smelled of like, you know, like oil in, in, in the mechanics. You know, it doesn't really good, but it smelled like, you know, like oil that you get in a car. So the first time I get to the desk, everyone's like, what's that smell? I was like, oh, sorry, it's me. Like, I had to run into the toilet or scrub off all this oil just because again, it made an impression. I made a bad impression, but I was able to laugh it off But these are some of the things you have to think, you know, like, do you smell good? Do you— are you well groomed? Um, is your shoulder straight? You know, are you smiling? You know, if you have a frown, they call that angry frowny face, you know, when people are not looking, then again, it's all of these things that people take into their brain as well as what you say, and they build an impression about you. And all of this can be practiced. Ahead of your start date.

Okay, cool. So first impressions, super important, gonna nail and practice that, that introduction. So point, point 1 of 4 down. So number 2, we've got, uh, reflection and visualization. So what does that look like to you and how can people learn to improve that?

Yeah, it's a good one because when you get to an internship, obviously you're thrown into a new world you forget about all the things that you've achieved in your life to get to this point. You know, again, you can have overcome— you know, I've met some students that, like, you know, were born in, in, in, in a country that was going through a war, like a conflict, a war zone, you know. And they've done all this, come— they've come to the UK, they've settled, they've, like, done really well at school, and now they've landed an internship. That is a massive accomplishment. You know, and that's something, you know, you should reflect on. I, I'm, I've been so successful in my past life, I can do this, I'm up for the task. Other people have achieved things, you know, in sports, in academia, um, in their personal life, you know, whether it's their background, defeating the odds. Like, even just, you know, you, everyone's got that teacher that didn't believe in you, that said that you, you will not succeed, and you've, you've you've proved that person wrong. Everyone's got that person in the family that you proved wrong, right? So reflecting on, okay, what are some of my successes? List 3 of your key successes in life and have that planted in the back of your head so that when you walk into the environment, you say, look, you know, I deserve to be here because I've, I've overcome a lot, you know, I've achieved a lot. So that's one. And the visualization is like, where do you want to be in 10 years' time? You know, I want you to be thinking, obviously, you know, if you want— if you're staying in banking, you don't want to be an MD, um, you know, someone senior. I want to be the next CEO. I want to be the next Jamie Dimon. You know, they're like— you want to think big, you know, because if you think big, the way you'll carry yourself in the first week, month, couple of months of you being in the job will reflect on, I have big ambitions here, I'm ready to learn. I'm— I, I see a big future for myself. If you don't see that, if you don't visualize yourself, if you don't see yourself being that, it knocks you. When you have something that's going to knock your confidence, you like— you could stay knocked back for a long time. But if you say— if you have a bad day but you're like, you know, I, I see myself as a CEO, what would Jamie Dimon have done as an intern? Okay, he would have done— you know, so it's about that reflection. So reflect What 3 things have you done to make it so far that you've achieved in your life, and where do you see yourself in, in, in 10 years' time?

Yeah, talking, talking about thinking of the CEO, I remember my first mentor that I was given when I first started my first job in finance, uh, I'd meet with him once a week for an hour off the desk, uh, and he said to me, uh, this was Bob Diamond, he uses a reference, who was the Barclays chief at the time, and he said and I was all panicked, like, so much to learn, so much to do, I'm never going to be able to do it. And he said, even Bob Diamond had a first day at work. And I was just like, oh, so like the person you think is like top of the pile also started exactly where you started at some point in his life. And you're like, okay, it's quite calming.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Everyone had a first day. Everyone had a first day.

Even Elon Musk Right, yep, definitely. All right, so okay, number 3 then, 2 more to go. Um, you talked about practicing your weakness or to improve your weakness, so, so what, what does this mean to you?

Yeah, though, practicing your weakness is around— and, and this is where we could potentially use, or we should be using, simulations, right? So ahead of your internship or your, your job or or whatever you're going into, um, like find out what is going to be the main tools or the main tasks you'll be doing in your job. If it's Excel, don't just— you know it's going to be Excel, so start working on getting better at Excel right ahead of your internship. And these are all things you can do, uh, you know, we work with great firms like, you know, Bank of America, uh, and, and, you know, Morgan Stanley, UBS, where their ethos is helping prepare interns ahead of their internship. And, and, and if you're— even if you're not on one of those programs, you can take some of the principles which they use, is finding out what the tools are. If it's Excel, if it's PowerPoint, um, if it's, for example, you're going to be in a trading role, you know, open a trading account. And, you know, don't, don't, don't use real money, but a virtual trading account. Practice what it's like. You know, and if you identify, oh my God, I'm not good at Excel, I'm not good at public speaking, I'm not good at PowerPoint, you hopefully would have had 2 or 3 months. Even if you got 4 weeks, do a deep dive, practice your weakness. So by the time you start, that can allow you to go in with confidence. The biggest thing which allows imposter syndrome to fester is when you feel like your weaknesses are defeating you. Um, you go in, you're in a meeting, they say, uh, Andrew, can you give your opinion? Because I feel I'm not good at public speaking, again, I, I start stuttering, I, you know, I start mumbling. But if I knew I'm not a good public speaker and I practice that and I'm prepared to be asked, I'd already had my answer prepared, I'd have practiced it, and I'll be able to deliver it. So work on your weakness. We all have weaknesses. Recently I've been getting into marathon running. You know, the first time I did like a run, I only lasted maybe 5 minutes, 5 minutes without, you know, collapsing at the side of the road, you know, calling, calling my wife, having to take the bus back or going on the Uber. And now I can run for over 3 hours nonstop. Like, you know, just as a casual Sunday going out, you know, say bye to the family and I'm gone for 3 hours and I come back. But that took practice, you know. So you each day you build up, you practice, you get better. So yeah, working on your weakness ahead of your start date. Um, another thing is, you know, if, if you're listening to this and you've already started, you know, work on your weaknesses after hours. In the evenings, on the weekend, and, and you allow you to catch up and overcome some of the fears that you're feeling.

Do you think there's much— thinking about your second and third points now, do you think there's a benefit in people, uh, writing down physically on paper like a weakness or reflecting on those moments in their past? Is there, is there something mentally in the process of actually writing this stuff down to reinforce it.

Yeah, I would. I agree. I absolutely agree. I think there is. I think you should be doing that, you know, whether it's writing down on a piece of paper. You know, I'm old school. I like writing. I like the physical, getting a pen and paper and writing it down. Or if you've got like that, that thing on your phone or on your screensaver or something like that, so you could see all the time But physically writing it down, yeah, will definitely help reinforce some of the messages to help you again overcome some of these things.

Yeah, I definitely had my observation of working with people trading was that when they were junior, if you document that, you can then see this progress because it's there in physical form. So when you're having that crisis of confidence moment, you can lean on that to then get you back into the zone. So yeah. Absolutely. All right. So the final point here is about having a mantra. So I'm quite, quite interested to hear your mantra, but why this is so important.

Yeah, no, it's super important because you will have a bad day. You will have a bad day. And knowing you will have a bad day sometimes allows you to allay some of your imposter syndrome fears. It's like that person, you know, like, Anthony, from your background, you know, playing basketball, they say the worst thing is, is not the person who takes the shot and misses, is the person who never takes a shot at all, right? You know, so you're gonna have times where you're gonna miss, right? You're gonna miss, you're gonna not gonna have a good day. But it's like, how do you bounce back from that? How do you bounce back from having a bad day? And that's where mantra comes in. So I remember, you know, again, I'm back my background working in the trading floor, um, there'll be some days when, you know, my bosses will shout at me and, and like, you know, I would feel so small. Um, I remember one boss said to me, you know, my 5-year-old can do better at mental maths than you. And I just— it was, it was crushing. And he said it so loud in front of at least 20 people, so everyone heard it and everyone— but no one came to my defense. So I thought in my head, oh, Everyone believes that, you know, a 5-year-old is better at mental maths than me. But I had a mantra that kept me going each day. And this is going to the legend, the hip-hop legend who's like, who's now passed. DMX had a song and it was called Slippin'. And his line was, and I used it as my mantra, is like, you know, I'm slippin', I'm fallin', you know, I've got to get up. I've got to get up. And that was my mantra. You know, I'm slippin', I'm fallin', but I've got to get up. So whatever your mantra is, you know, people have all different types of mantras, motivational quotes, you know, have that labeled in the back of your head. It could be on your screensaver, written down so that whenever you're going through like a bad period or time where you just need to bounce back, you go to the toilet, you say your mantra, you say it quietly. And then to your point, Anthony, in the beginning, it's about the nonverbal. Like, once you've said it, like, almost reset, come back out, it's back to Smiley Andrew again, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think you can almost physically trick your mind into re-engaging this more positive mindset. Like, I would encourage, actually, while you're listening to this, get out of your chair, stand up in the middle of the carriage in the train and just stand up like tall and proud. And you're amazing how it, how it gets you in the right mood and you can snap it. Because I often think it's so psychological, but it just needs that little catalyst to like break you out of it. Yeah, for sure.

Cool.

Well, look, great tips. Yeah. Is there any final, final pearls of wisdom?

Yeah, no, the thing is, um, the last, the last thing I want to leave with people is just like, it takes practice. It does take practice. And the thing is, there's so much things you can do ahead of the start date, like the introductions, like working on your weaknesses, even building a mantra, um, the visualization. All this stuff you can do, but the difference between the winners and the losers is the people who are prepared to actually do that work. You know, it's not easy. Like, the financial services is an industry where people get paid relatively well compared to the, you know, the, the, the UK national average wage, but for, you know, your, your pot of gold, there is sacrifices, right? Are you prepared to sacrifice? Are you prepared to work hard? So it— you need to put that effort in. And, and again, I don't want you, anyone listening, to, to look back at any stereotypes of, you know, I'm not going to do well because of the color of my skin, my background, you know, whether I'm privileged, non-privileged, or whatever vices or things you have in your head, it's about are you willing to work at your weaknesses to get better? So yeah, I hope, I hope this has been useful. But yeah, it's on you. It's time to work. So let's, let's get to work.

Oh, I don't think I even need to say anything else to finish it. That was a good finish. All right. So, Andrew, thank you very much. Much appreciated for your time. And yeah, we'll hopefully catch you on another episode in future.

Great, thank you, thank you very much, Anthony Cheung.