How to Stand Out in Finance Job Applications: Advice from Asset Management Director

Ben, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. Perhaps we could start with, you could just tell us a little bit more about yourself, a bit of background, and I'll do the same afterwards.

Sure, no problem. Cheers, Anthony, and hi everyone. So, Ben Arnold, I work at Schroders on one of the equity desks. So very much in the asset management industry, have been for nearly a decade now. Before that was in banking. Also had a period where I was a professional sportsman for a while in between those two, which is interesting. And then before that at university, you know, pretty familiar with the whole application process to the internship, Spring Weeks, graduate schemes. You know, I come at it from both sides really as a student, like you guys dialed in, although it was quite a few years ago, you know, applying for these things. And then a period of time helping other students apply for these, these internships and these applications. And then, you know, for the last 7 or 8 years being sat on the company side, you know, assessing applications coming in, speaking to a lot of students on spring weeks, working at assessment days as well, mainly in equities and in sales as well. So it's I've had the benefit over the last 10, 12 years of hopefully not being too far away from being a student and sitting on your guys' side, so those memories haven't faded too much. But then also on the assessor's side, which obviously gives a very different aspect to the whole process, and it's been fascinating over the last 7 or 8 years sitting on the other side of the table and seeing lots of bright, lots of affable students come and see their applications and and assessment days, where there's obviously a different dynamic, which will all be coming up in the next kind of 4 to 6 weeks, hopefully for a lot of people on this call. So yeah, that's a little bit about me. Anthony, I'll fire it over back to you.

Yeah, that's perfect. And actually, you're absolutely right. You've definitely lived both sides of this. And actually, I've never— don't think I've ever talked to someone in a session about being a participant on the company side during an assessment center day. So yeah, definitely keen to get into that, to dive into that. Um, I'll give a brief overview of myself. Ben as well, if you just move your camera slightly just to get you a bit more in shot. There you go. Um, so yeah, my name is Anthony Cheung. I am the Chief Content Culture Officer at Amplify. So you might have seen, probably watching this on LinkedIn if you are, some content. I put out lots of posts via myself and the company to demystify finance, make it hopefully a bit more interesting and digestible to understand on the commercial awareness side. So we host a podcast of which, absolutely thrilled that it's now this week top 10 in the business charts, uh, in the UK, which is great. Um, but unlike other podcasts, we tried to engineer that in a way where we're designed for students, whereas other podcasts like a bank will talk about lots of cool, interesting stuff, but often they're speaking to a a finance professional rather than a student looking to aspire to work in finance. So I spend a lot of time doing that. The other side of my job is I'm heavily involved in the management team, both from a cultural perspective as we continue to grow as a company and expand our wings into the North, North American region and beyond, and then just working with the community in general and a lot of the recruitment side of our business, which is ultimately We're a simulation technology company trying to level the playing field in respect to showing students different roles in finance, but also being able to measure their behavior and performance in our sims to then hopefully put them on a track where we can upskill them and place them with our corporate partners. So I have a bit of oversight on that side of the business as well. But look, let's get, let's get into this. And this is definitely, um, we can kick things off, you and I, Ben, with a few kind of planted questions to get the ball rolling at this time of year, but anyone watching, 100% submit a question. You know, this is not— this session is designed for the next 50 minutes, you know, the handcuffs are off, you can ask us whatever, whatever you like, and we'll try to be as honest and open and as transparent as we, as we can. Um, so let's just go into Yeah, applications obviously follow a process and there's different elements of that process. I guess to get up and running, there's this initial question about quantity or quality and the trade-off or balances of trying to manage that. What was, what's your, your perspective on that?

Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a good place to start because that was the headache initially. Yeah, there's so many. As we know in finance, you know, finance is such a broad industry. There's many, you know, a lot of different sectors within that. You've got asset management, you've got investment banking, you've got consulting, you've got accounting, etc. I think, you know, the, the application process is onerous. If you are going to land an offer for an internship or a graduate scheme, analyst scheme, there's probably 40 hours, I think, of work there if you add up everything from prep to writing, to writing cover letters, your CV, tests, interview, virtual interview, face-to-face interview. Assessment day there is just a day plus travel. So, there's probably 40 hours front to back end. So, I think you need to be reasonably selective, but know that the hit rate for offers is also pretty low because of how competitive these things are. So, it's about getting the balance with the two. I think The best place to start is really to try and identify the kind of subsector almost that you're most passionate about, that your skills are most aligned to. So don't apply for every bank, every asset manager, every consulting firm, every audit firm. Say, right, well, actually within that, okay, I really like consulting. That's what I think is going to be a really interesting career. That's what my skills suit. So I'm going to apply for all of the consultants. There will be some kind of crossover in terms of prep, naturally. So that will help. But, you know, just sort of applying for absolutely everything going, to make sure that the applications are higher quality enough, I think is going to be very, very difficult because you guys are all studying at the same time as well and most of you may be sort of in your, you know, in your final year. So pick a sort of a strand within finance that you think you're most aligned to and then go all in on that one, I'd say.

And I guess a natural extension of this, you just briefly mentioned there the amount of research that goes into making a genuinely high-quality application. And so I think one of the things that has changed, and fortunately I'm in a position where I could talk to students and also talk to hiring managers, and something that's changed a lot, as you can imagine, the last 18 to 24 months is ChatGPT. And that has meant that application numbers have spiked And so what advice can you give then around researching companies as opposed to just going to ChatGPT and using the dark arts of AI to just self-generate that sort of stuff? How— what would you recommend that a student does to do this in a more authentic way that's going to stand out to the employer?

Yeah, I said it's a good question, and obviously those models have just picked up massively in the last kind of 12-24 months. One thing I would say in that, and because I get asked this quite a lot from students, you know, how should I use, you know, ChatGPT or a similar model? And people forget that the recruiters will be using these as well. You know, they think, well, actually, it's going to make life easier because I can get ChatGPT to write my application. But, you know, that's going to be seen through if it's also being picked up by the same application on the other side. I'd say those, from my experience, and if I was a student, I'd be using that software to summarize big groups, you know, big, big amounts of information. So if I'm looking, doing sector research, you know, say let's just take that consulting example. If you're, if you're, you know, trying to research the consulting industry, you know, I'd be putting, you know, big amounts of research into ChatGPT and asking it to summarize. Um, that would be really useful. I would use it very, very, uh, carefully in trying to get that type of model to write my application. Because, as I said, the same types of software are going to be used and it's going to sound very, very similar across lots of different applications. So, it's not going to sound as unique as you may think it will. So, yeah, summarising big bits of research I think is really useful, will help you, will take those hours down a lot, but I wouldn't be using it to replace your own words in describing what your skills are and what your ambitions are. Then it's great for just polishing up around the edges, some of the language, I think, and tightening that up, but not too far.

Okay, cool. I just wanted to throw in a couple of questions that have come in so far on some of the things we've touched on. Samuel's just asked, "Hi, Ben. What would you say is the biggest difference between wealth and investment management?" I guess going back to that trying to isolate and find your area, given your area of expertise you work in, you're probably the best person to answer that.

Yeah. So wealth management would sit within investment management. So when you get a, you know, say a big, uh, a big investment manager, they may have a wealth arm within it. Wealth management is typically, uh, the business of looking after high net worth individuals. Um, and sometimes you will have just a wealth manager that is standalone on its own. And then you, as I said, you have a wealth manager within an investment manager or an asset manager. So wealth sits within investment, um, and is a kind of channel, uh, within that. Those types of clients, um, may have different needs than, than, than other clients of investment managers. Um, typically, you know, the types of clients— think entrepreneurs, uh, think people that have sold businesses, people that have inherited wealth. So within that kind of wealth management service, there's not only the investment side, but there's the tax planning, the succession inheritance planning, etc. There's a bunch of other services that go around that, that a wealth management offer, and that sits in within one division within the broader investment manager setup.

Cool. And then we've just got one more from Eric. He's jumping straight in, I guess, but this is probably applicable on the application side. Which is in a sense of how to define your own skill set and say like a cover letter, and also I said reflecting on your CV, and what extent should you highlight soft skills in addition to technical knowledge? So is this really determined by the role in itself, or do you think that there's certain competencies on a soft skill side that one should just have regardless of role?

Yeah, I mean, Definitely, I think they have to be role-specific. Some roles, the types of soft skills needed will be, you know, be different. So, say you're, you know, a sales broker or working in sales, the types of soft skills needed there around building relationships will be very different to a very technical role where most of your work may be on your own or part of a small team. Soft skills are naturally much harder to kind of prove until you get to the assessment day, maybe the group exercise or the face-to-face interview. So, I think if you're trying to bring those to life in your application, you've got to try and use examples. Speaking from personal experience, I would talk about, you know, I played a team sport. A lot of my examples for the competencies would come from a team sport. So, soft skills would be teamwork, leadership, how as a group we'd perform under pressure, those types of things. I would use playing hockey at a high level as an example. So, you know, things around, you know, just try and bring to life those soft skills with hard, you know, hard proper examples. And then when you get to an interview, be ready to answer further questions on those examples.

Yeah. And just on this, what you mentioned there about your life experience, you had that sporting background, but what's your take on, because often some students will have direct experience, i.e., a spring week, and they might be going for a summer in a different company, for example, but finance-related. There are other students who've worked at Waitrose or they've been part of the McDonald's crew, for example. Like, so how would you, how would you engineer those non-financial-related ones to someone's benefit?

Yeah, I mean, I think try and, you know, because those examples definitely can work and do work. And I see plenty of applications where it's more interesting someone coming up with an example for a skill that's from working checkouts at Tesco than from doing an internship at a bank the previous summer. Sometimes, they're actually a lot more unique because a lot of people want to reference the internships and things like that, which is still great, but they tend to sometimes stand out a bit more memorable if they're not from those examples. I think really having— just explaining very clearly what that example was, where it's from. People talk about the STAR method situation. Task, Action, Result. That framework is 10-15 years old, but it's still very, very good to use. But yeah, those sort of Saturday jobs, the volunteering. I had a great application I saw last year where someone said, basically, I haven't got any work experience. I'm a carer. I'm a full-time carer for my mum. This individual was able to very, very articulately talk about so many amazing skills that our business would have benefited from. By looking after their mum. And she did that really, really well. And that's one that I remember from last year's recruiting season. And it wasn't finance related at all, but how they talked about it and how they brought it to life and how relevant that was for the job that they applied to was really, really good and was really standout, really.

Yeah, it's really interesting. Like, the most memorable one is actually one that's not financial related. I guess as a human in a normal interaction with another human, we are kind of byproducts of our history and storytelling is such a powerful skill if you can get it right. And something that someone can, um, without a technical knowledge, understand and appreciate is always going to be super powerful. Okay. Couple of more questions have come in. It's great. And keep, please keep them coming. We will try and get through as many as we can. So We've got a bit of extension from where we were discussing before. So let's go back to there. One was about choosing the roles again, and I guess this is a, a conundrum for some students. So good to get your advice. How important is it to tailor your resume to a particular role? Would you advise having separate CVs for consulting, for IB, for asset management, or do you think that the student is fundamentally kind of missing a step here? In the, like, if you wanted to work in banking or markets, they're fundamentally very different roles, and perhaps they need to go back to the drawing board and understand themselves and their skills and their desires first rather than have multiple applications. And how do you see that?

So, to answer the first point, yes, you've got to customize. In my view, you've got to customize, and anything that is put in front of a hiring manager has got to be customized, not only that role but that firm. As well, because different firms in the same industry, in the same role, are looking for slightly different things. So yes, they have to be customized, and I absolutely agree that if someone is saying, well, I'm chucking in, you know, customizing a cover letter for consulting, customizing one for IB, and customizing one for, you know, accounting, that's a lot of work there. I would say, well, hang on, step back. I think you're jumping a step here. Really try and work out which one of those you're most passionate about, you're most interested in, that your skills fit most tightly with, um, to that point of just trying to sort of nail the applications in one sector rather than, you know, apply for 70 different programs across all of them.

Yeah, makes sense. And then Samuel's just asking here about— you mentioned there about the wealth management skill set-wise, investment management and wealth management from a skills perspective from the student. Same or different?

Uh, so similar, um, for sure. Um, I think in investment management it's probably broader. There's more roles available within investment management. So you've got, you know, straight sales roles where you're just purely managing relationships, um, and that's it. And you hand over to the product specialists or the fund managers to go through the, you know, the specifics around the technical side of investment. Um, you, with it, within an investment manager, you've got obviously the actual you know, pure investors. And within that, you've got, you've got equity investors, you've got private assets investors, you've got credit, fixed income, multi-asset, etc. And then still within investment managers, there's roles in technology, there's roles in compliance, um, risk, etc., etc. Wealth management, there are some of those roles available, but it is naturally a bit narrower. And actually, you know, a wealth manager itself the role itself will be a lot broader. You might have to wear an investment hat, you might have to wear a sales hat. You will manage the relationship with that high net worth individual, but you'll also be, you know, from a client service point of view, but you'll also be managing their funds and managing their investment portfolio. So, within wealth management space, you have to wear many different hats. Within investment management, actually, you're more specific. Say you're just doing client coverage or you're just doing investment. And that itself can— that itself can appeal to different people. Some people say, well, actually, I really like the breadth of a wealth management role. I like the fact that I could be doing investing one day and I could be doing client work the next day. Some people may say, actually, I'm just more suited to being an equity analyst or a credit analyst, and therefore speaking to clients all the time and trying to juggle that isn't really that appealing.

Okay, so just before we move on, um, Alexander you've asked a question that's much more IB-focused, and actually your question about the difference between IB coverage and product teams, I had that exact conversation with our head of corporate finance in a recording for a podcast that's going to drop on Monday. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna park that question, Alexander, and I'm gonna signpost you to Monday's podcast episode because funnily enough we had that exact conversation. And he breaks it down so well. So check that out for sure. But Ben, perhaps I could take you back to— applications have been open, generally speaking, for a couple of weeks. And so taking that process through, they've been successful. One of the first things is online tests and then a HireVue. So perhaps we can go with online tests first. Any practical advice you can give?

Just practice the hell out of it would be number one. I really struggled with them, really did. And I was really worried about them because some of them, you know, you've got your verbal, your numerical, your logical reasoning. Verbal and numerical I was okay at. Logical reasoning I was hopeless at and really struggled. You know, a lot of the providers, you can just buy packs of these things. One hack that I did use, and then when I was coaching students I encouraged them to do, was A lot of the banks, a lot of the accountants, a lot of these guys use the same companies to implement their testing. So, if you go on to— and you can find out actually when you get a link invited to a test, you would see what company they are linked to. And I'm just going to buy some packs from that company. And the question style is really similar. Obviously, the same questions don't come up. That would just be too easy. But practice the hell out of it. Sometimes I do group sessions with friends. Friends. So 4 of us would just get up, you know, about, you know, 30 logical reasoning test, uh, questions. Sorry, big screen. I remember going to the university library on campus and we'd just look at it, and a lot of friends would tell me, oh, well, it's that shape and it's that shape because it's this, and you're missing the rotation, or you're missing the flip, or whatever. Um, and sometimes just speaking to a couple of friends and doing it together, people just see the world slightly differently or recognize different things. So for me, the logical reasoning was one that I really struggled with. The numerical I was okay with, but then would do the same exercise with friends and we'd all sort of learn quick things. I remember one student that I worked with on the numerical testing was when they were working out the sums, they were putting all the zeros into the calculator. I was saying, "Look, if it's all millions, you just take out those 6 zeros. That's just going to save you 5 seconds each question." There's small little hacks that you can do. and working with a couple of friends and buddying up and do these tests and sort of trading tips, you can open your eyes to a few of these things that help at the margin. But ultimately, just practice the hell out of them. One thing I would say, big warning, don't get other people to do them for you. I know that that always exists. The companies cottoned on to that years and years ago. You have to resit these tests at assessment days a lot of the time, and if your score is significantly deviates from your score 6, 8 weeks ago, it's a bit of a red flag. So while it might feel like a good thing to do because, "Well, I'll definitely get through by getting my super smart mate to do them," you get found out and yeah, you may get found out eventually. So I'd advise not doing that, but I'm sure no one's doing that because everyone dialed in here is probably a straight A student.

Validate what you said. Had a conversation with a client early this week, and they now get you to do, um, sort of mathematical working out in the room with pen and paper in order to stress test those, those test results. So absolutely, you're right, you'll come undone. One thing you mentioned there was about— you were referring to kind of a collaborative, almost collegiate environment where people are sharing and learning. I know that some students have that mentality built in and some don't. In terms of then, you know, now you're in the workplace and you've got experience and you're hiring, can you just kind of give some, some, uh, I guess some insight as to how important actually being collaborative in your working in the real world is? And that if you're not treating it that way in the application stage, you're kind of ultimately setting yourself up for failure.

Yeah, no, that's fair. I think a lot of the time when you're 19, 20, 21, 22 and applying to these things, you probably think it's you versus the world, and the reality is it isn't. It's very, very competitive, but there are lots of places available. So, whether it's your coursemates or your housemates or other people, just sharing experiences with these things is, I think, really helpful and will ultimately help you. There is no role really that I can think of in finance where you don't have to work with someone else. Somewhere teamwork and relationship building is less prominent in the role and it's more technical based. But, you know, even if you think of, you know, well, you know, traders that are operating their own P&L, they still have to have good relationships with, you know, the brokers, the other people, the other desks on their team, desks, you know, around the street. So I don't I don't really think there's any sort of— I can't think there's many places where there's room for complete individuals and people just acting as lone wolves. A lot of these graduate and analyst programs and spring weeks will emphasize teamwork and relationship building and collaboration because most companies operate very, very complex. Their products are complex, their clients' needs are complex. No one person can come up with them on their own, so you have to be collaborative. Most competency-based questions will bring an element of that out. The good ones will ask you to provide not only examples of you working in a team, but they might say, "Give me an example where you worked in a team, something went wrong, what did you and your team do?" Not just, "What did you do?" Being collaborative, I think, is, is super, super helpful in the application process. And, you know, when you get into the actual programs, the spring weeks, and then, you know, full-time roles, um, there's going to be lots of that anyway, so you might as well start now.

I guess that collaborative test really comes— and you must have seen people do this well and people do this badly— when you're in an assessment center and there is a group task There's a lot of students will ask me, how do I navigate that so that I stand out in the right way? So what, from what you've seen, you must have seen hundreds of these. So what's like a good framework of to think in order to approach that successfully, a group task at assessment centre?

So generally people make one of two mistakes and they're at the other opposite end of the extremes. They say nothing because nerves are completely understandable, or, you know, they don't want to be, you know, they don't want to speak over people and things like that. Or they go the other way and they're just far too dominant and their feedback is that, you know, you didn't allow the group to speak or you spoke over people. Striking that balance is key but also quite hard, especially, you know, for internship applications. This might be your first time that you're going to do these group exercises. I'd say there's a few things. I do think there are a few tricks and a few hacks that can help. So, firstly, all these group exercises are going to be timed. You will be cut off at, you know, if it's 20 minutes to discuss and 10 minutes to present, you will be cut off at 20 minutes. There needs to be a timekeeper in the group. You know, someone could say, well, I'll be the timekeeper, and then you know at least that that's a role that you can play. There's nothing to do with the actual case study, but it's a chance for you to every few minutes, right guys, we've got 10 minutes left, we've got 5 minutes left. That's a small one. Normally with these things, you go into a room, there's 6 of you, 8 of you, however many. There's a flip chart where ideas are scrolling down, being scribbled down, and someone's got to have the pen in their hand to write on the flip chart. That's the one that I always loved because I used to have this little saying, "The pen is mightier than the sword." As soon as you've got that pen in your hand, the debate is going to come through you. People are going to want to see their ideas on the flip chart presented to, and that's a really nice way to, especially if you're a bit more introverted and less comfortable in these group settings, you can be the one that goes and stands by the flip chart and help, you know, navigate discussion. You say, you know, Anthony, great idea, you know, Piers, what do you think to that? And that type of role is really, I think, a way to kind of balance all of that. So there's a couple of sort of tricks you do. I mean, generally speaking over people, big no-no. Um, you know, generally I don't think people are sort of speaking over people too much, but that's where some— I've seen some shockers over the year where people have had amazing marks in the interview, the case study, backed up great marks on the test, and then they go into the group exercise and they think they need to just be super dominant, you know, and they speak over too many people. And that will— to your point about how important is collaboration and teamwork, I think if someone fails a group exercise badly, it can write everything off. Now, that's not to scare people, but that's just to sort of say it is a big important part of the day, and striking that balance is kind of key.

Okay, cool. A few more questions have come in for you, Ben. So the next one is, um, someone's noticed you are CFA qualified and wanted to know to what extent does that help candidates stand out from the crowd. And second question on that, what roles is the CFA more required for? Because I know it's not really applicable for all roles.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so, and for those that don't know, the CFA, the, um, is the sort of Chartered Financial Analyst. Institute. It's the, you know, if you've got the ACA for accounting, CFA is the sort of asset management. Some investment banks use it, some pro equity guys will have it as well, but it's kind of the industry standard for, for those sectors. Is it worth it? Is it worth doing in terms of, you know, making your application stand out? To be honest, if, if, if companies want you to do CFA, they will put, they will put you through it on their on the graduate scheme. Is it worth doing alongside your studies? Personally, I don't think so. It is a kind of post-university qualification. To be a CFA charterholder, just passing exams isn't enough. You have to have— I think they've just lowered it, but you have to have, I think, 4 years of investment management experience. So it's not like just by passing exams you can say, look, I'm a CFA charterholder. Um, yeah, so for applications, I would caution— I mean, I definitely wouldn't go past Level 1, to be honest. Just below CFA, there's the IMC, the Investment Management Certificate. I think that's probably a great way to show that I'm serious about this industry. Um, yeah, there's 2 papers there. One's on regs and, and the, uh, asset management quality environment. The other one's a bit more technical and goes through the asset classes. I say if you, if you're quite keen to do some kind of extra studying and get a qualification, that's maybe something to think about. I mean, one thing I would consider where that is probably quite good is if you've not done a financial-based course, maybe that's a good thing to try and show, "I'm trying to at least trying to bridge the technical gap or the knowledge gap, and here's something that I've done, I've not been asked to do, it's sort of extracurricular, and so I can at least, you know, pick up the language quite easily when I join. Um, saying that, a lot of, a lot of programs, analyst programs, and on for asset management at least, will get you to do the IMC in the first couple of weeks of the induction. Um, so I wouldn't say it's needed, but might be a small thing to kind of set aside. But, you know, you guys have a lot on with, you know, studying. A lot of people will be working part-time jobs plus applications, dissertations, etc., etc. The CFA isn't something that I'd be like, yeah, go and do it, it's gonna set you apart. I'd actually rather students spend time on doing other things and developing skills because we will teach, you know, the companies will teach you all of this technical stuff. If someone, if you've got two applications that, you know, same degree, all these other things, and one has gone and done a year traveling and done some really cool stuff and developed some really good skills, or, you know, got a part-time job that's really interesting or started their own little business or a blog or something, and then another has just done CFA, I probably, you know, most people are probably gonna go, well, this is the person that I want to hear from, um, that sounds more interesting. So, um, so yeah, that's my kind of take. What's yours, Anthony? Do you have a view on it?

Yeah, I mean, it's probably the second part of that question, which is about— I think a lot of students naively just think it's a good thing to have someone going to do it. But going back to the top of the conversation, what role do you want to do? Because I remember a lot of the traders that I used to work with, there's just no need for the CFA. But you talk to research, there absolutely is a need. Um, so it really depends because it's not an easy thing to achieve. It's a lot of dedication, a lot of hours, a lot of graft, and you've got to manage that, you know, when you're working. Uh, I can only imagine that the hours you need to put in, the weekends you sacrifice, and so on. If it's not actually needed for your career aspirations long term, um, you've just got to answer that question. So, you know, if you want to be a PM, for example, in the end, well then sure. Or you want to work in deep research. But if you just want to be an execution trader, then yeah, yeah, maybe it's not necessary. So I think that's the main thing that I hear from students. They kind of just think it's a good thing to have, so I'll do it. It's like another notch on my belt.

And to be really specific on that, I would say— and there'll be stuff on the CFA website that shows the breakdown of candidates and CFA chartholders and what their jobs are. I'd go and look at that. You know, it will be dominated by people in research, people in asset management, people in, you know, and that would— a lot of them will be CFA chartholders. But outside of that, not as much. So, you know, anything to do with consulting, audit, There'll be a bit of corporate finance, I think, where CFA is present, but, you know, trading definitely not. So that's probably, you know, if people want to double-check, well, actually, this, this career that I think I'm quite, you know, going down the path towards, is that a typical CFA place or not? I think there is a breakdown on the CFA's website, so I check that out for people that, you know, aren't sure where it lands.

Okay, we got one more question come in, and then we'll go back to the application process and talk interviews. So just tackling this question first, uh, I'm not sure if you can speak more broadly, but perhaps for, for, for Schroeders and what you know intimately more the process, but how long does a student need to wait to receive feedback on an assessment centre? Or like when they're going through the process, not an assessment centre, let's say a HireVue. Is it an automatic thing or is it there's a space of time?

Yeah. I mean, it, it does, it does vary even just within within one company, it will vary because different roles or different divisions will have, you know, volume management for a hiring manager is the most difficult thing. It's not actually finding the best candidates, it's finding the best candidates within, you know, thousands of applications. I've had some messages on LinkedIn from people saying, "Oh, I've put my application into these companies, should I be chasing up?" That I do kind of advise against. These hiring managers are very, very busy. This is a stressful period of the year for them. Chasing the outcome of your application, I'd advise against. But a video interview, the process from the backend, just for people to know, video interviews will be recorded over a few weeks. Then they will go to a bunch of people within that division, so not just HR. They will go to— let's just say it's research. They will typically go to a bunch of analysts or PMs that are highlighted that they want to get involved in these things, they will review those and give HR some feedback. That process does take a while. Putting a number on it, I just wouldn't want to say because it does vary a lot across different programs just within the same company. It's definitely going to be more than probably 1 to 2 weeks, I imagine. If people have, say, done one at the beginning of last week and not heard, I wouldn't be getting too nervous if you haven't heard back. I'd encourage you to just try and wait it out. It is stressful. I used to hate waiting for these things, especially as you go through the stages and get knocked out, you know, and you went, you know, you applied for 10 and then there's 8 that you get through the test and then 6 that you get through the virtuals. It is stressful, but, um, but yeah, minimum, minimum a couple of weeks, I reckon, perhaps longer.

Cool. And then as you've been talking, Henry has come in with a fresh question and so has said, Your experience at the HireVue one-on-one interview stage, are there any specific traits that recruiters look for in a candidate that may not be skill or experience-based?

Um, I mean, one thing I'd say, communication comes across pretty clearly regardless of, you know, skill or experience. So being able to keep answers concise and to time, you know, you will get a minute to answer a question. Do not feel you have to use that whole minute. The amount that I see where it's coming through and it's taking ages for this person to get their points across. You know, it can be quite frustrating. So if you've answered the question after 30 seconds with an absolute killer example, you know, then leave it at that and be comfortable just hitting that button, you know, submit, record. I can't remember what it looks like from the other side, but, um, yeah, so try not to ramble on too much in an actual interview.

Have you ever had a situation where someone has got a little bit unstuck in their head in how to respond and then had the ability to stop themselves, say to you, "I just need a second," and then they've gone again? Because in principle, that sounds like the best plan, but in practice, have you ever seen students do that and try to re-control the situation? Because I know it's obviously incredibly nerve-wracking doing an interview.

So rarely, but I can think of, I think maybe only once that someone's done that. And it was actually one of the, we do a bunch of speed interviews that people do generally with sort of spring weeks and things like that. And one person just knew they were sort of rambling on and they said, they sort of stopped, right? I've actually forgotten the question. And they said, I'm a bit nervous. I've forgotten your question. So I asked it again. Then they said, okay, give me a second. And then gave it a really much better answer. Don't be afraid to do that. It's hard to have that kind of mental presence to recognize that in the moment, but like, showing a bit of vulnerability sometimes is actually a really, really good way of creating a deep connection with someone. Um, so it, you know, if you find that you're rambling on and you're kind of getting lost and your heart's absolutely racing, just take a breath. Just say, 'Oh, sorry, I just got a bit lost in my thought there. Do you mind me the question?' Or if you already remember the question, just, you know, 'I've got lost in my thought, give us a second.' People are going to be pretty kind, I think, in these situations. They know that it's stressful from your guys' perspective. I think that shows real maturity if someone was to do that in an interview.

Cool. And this time of year, I'm obviously in communication with lots of students. One of the things I get, the kind of a vibe that rubs off, is that there seems to be a lot of pressure that people, young people, feel that they've got to pick the right role and that they're going to be pigeonholed if they don't get it right now. The next 1 or 2 years, that's going to really ruin my career, which I know as someone older is definitely not true. But what's your perspective on that?

I mean, yeah, I can see why people think that. I think I used to think it. It's definitely not true. You know, you're going to have a long career like we all are. Anyone sort of under probably mid-40s is going to have a longer career than, you know, probably our parents did. Just the nature of longevity and things like that. You will end up doing so many different roles, I'm sure. Probably so many different industries. I know it feels incredibly kind of, you're standing at the door of the city and this is the channel that you've applied for and it's a one-way kind of street. But you kind of move away. There's this whole idea a lot in careers about the squiggly career. Someone's written a book, I can't remember who it was, I saw it in the FT. The squiggly career is the one that just moves around lots of different It might be companies, it might be different types of roles, and that breadth and different experiences can actually lead to people getting bigger roles in the future because they're so well-rounded. There is definitely the flexibility. One great thing about these spring weeks and these internships is it's a bit of experience. If you're doing your internship and you get to the end, and even if you have an offer, don't feel like you— if you haven't loved that role or that department, it's certainly not too late. I'm 34. I'm sure my career is going to go in lots of different places. A lot of people on the call will be late teens, early 20s. There's so many different places it's going to go. I'd like to think that actually maybe that takes a bit of pressure off of some of these experiences as well because it's not binary. If I don't get this, it's the end of the world. No, it's okay. You learn something. Maybe it pushed you to something else. In my first year, I applied for consulting, and I thought consulting was the way that I was going to go forward. Um, didn't end up doing an internship because I was playing hockey. But second year, then applied, um, well, for a different, slightly different type of consulting. Third year, then applied for banking, went into that, then played hockey, came back out, and now been in asset management for a decade. So it goes so many different places. So yeah, I just encourage people to be as, you know, broad-minded. Yes, try and focus those applications on a channel that you think today that's what you're most suited to, but don't think it's a one-way street that you can't sort of, you know, sidestep out into something else.

And perhaps I could lean into a little bit of the unique skill that you have. You know, you've represented GB, you are training to be at the Olympics, you know, you are an elite be within that, that domain, in that sport. And one thing is about mindset, because students feel like there's an overwhelming pool of applicants, and how am I gonna, how am I gonna conquer this, and how am I going to land that role? So just dealing with like performance anxiety, managing your expectations, being able to bounce back I'm sure these were all like daily, weekly routines when you're a professional athlete. What can you draw on and share with the community that you had from playing at that elite level that could be transferred into an application process, for example?

Yeah, that's really interesting. I've never really thought about that too much, but I think, you know, I played a team sport. We talked about sort of, you know, doing applications, finding a couple of buddies that you're sort of going to go through it together a bit. you know, trade some war stories. I got rejected from this, this interview was terrible. I had a twin brother, so we, and I had a good mate that was applying for all this stuff. So we sort of were a bit of a, you know, a bit of a trio. Um, you know, there were some shockers that, you know, happened in interviews and case studies and assessment days. We kind of all told each other about it and kind of learned. Um, so I think that, that kind of helps. I mean, the imposter syndrome, everyone suffers from it. I had it because I never did any internships because I was playing hockey. And I thought the only way to get into these analyst programs was via an internship. And yes, that is a very common— that is the most common route. But I remember I used to feel a lot of imposter syndrome thinking, well, I haven't done my internship at this investment bank. You know, all these other people have done 8 weeks at these places. I've never been in an office before. I've just run around a hockey pitch. You know, I'm trying to convince people that's relevant. Is it? You know, everyone has these doubts. So sort of having a couple of people close, whether it's on your course, friends, family, etc. I'd say, you know, you can sort of, you know, share the burden a bit. It is stressful. Just trading these war stories, I think, kind of helps a bit. And, um, and yeah, going through it together. Um, but yeah, and just know, like, the hit rates for these things are pretty low. You are going to get rejected. Sometimes you'll never get feedback. That will be incredibly frustrating, but that is a, that is a feature of the system. When there's thousands of applications, companies can't give detailed feedback to, back to everyone at all. Um, so knowing a bit from the start, like, you know, I'm going to get knocked back quite a few times. Um, just being sort of prepared for it and rolling with the punches a little bit is a bit of a cliché, but you don't really have a choice. You know, no one's going to land every, every application they submit at all, at all.

So yeah, final one on the extension of that is obviously going to like an assessment center or those quick-fire string of interviews in one day, a super day or something, What was your process? I know it can be quite unique to athletes, to athlete, but is there a process to get yourself in that space to perform in a, from a mental perspective that you feel confident?

Yeah, I mean, I would like, there's this, you know, I took it from, from playing sport, you know, practice the nerves away. I did this with my TFA exams. I was like, I'm just gonna, I did so many mocks, I was like, I'm just going to practice the nerves away. You're never going to get rid of them all. Nerves are good, like they're good, basically adrenaline, it does help you perform. But you don't want too much. So, I do quite a bit of practice. What I would do before these assessment days is really try and think, like, really try and simplify. What are my go-to examples for the skills that I know this employer is looking for, this role is looking for? Think about 3 or 4 of them and think about what are the 2 or 3 things that I'm bringing and really dial that, dial that, really simplify it. I remember I used to go in, you know, with a notebook and I'd probably just have you know, 8 to 10 bullets, you know, 3 or 4 really good examples that I thought would, would land well, 2 or 3 what are Ben's USPs, you know, what are Anthony's USPs, what am I really going to try and get across. And then, you know, cliché, just have a couple of— I'd write a couple of trite sayings at the bottom, you know. I can't remember them now, but something around, you know, bouncing back or something like that. Um, so I'd try and just— because there's so many nerves your mind can race before the assessment day where there's a lot going on, I just try and keep it super simple with what were my key messages really, and not turn up with 50 examples in my head.

Yeah, do the fundamentals well, as Michael Jordan said, and the rest will take care of itself. So, um, question has come in while we've been talking, and it's a little bit of more of a deep dive into what you're kind of discussing there about transitioning. I think some students do come to me and they might have worked, uh, uh, in tax or in audit and they want to pivot into banking, an IB, for example. And there's other kind of similar from accountancy into banking. It tends to be quite a common one. So any advice around that, that transitioning when you're maybe 2, 3 years down the road, but you kind of feel like, well, I'm not a grad. But so how, where do I go and where do I slot into these firms when I'm not a grad anymore? I don't, I'm not eligible for these structured programs.

Yeah, I mean, I would say I'm probably less well-versed in that kind of transition. I mean, I know that, you know, the couple of companies that I've worked at, there are experience hire sort of programs, and you'll see that on a lot of the careers websites. There will be experience hires. Well, I would, I would say the role of headhunters play a much bigger part in that kind of transition, so recruitment agents, headhunters, I think naturally if I was in that situation, I'd probably try and use them. They're going to get sight of, right, well, if you've just done your accountancy exams and qualified or you're halfway through your actuarial exams and you just realize it's just not for you, I think actually some of the recruitment consultants and headhunters are probably pretty useful there to say, well, actually I've dealt with this kind of career transition, these are probably your best options. So I'd try and use them. As a resource, really. That would be— that's the first thing that kind of comes to mind, which is very different to, you know, headhunters and recruitment consultants don't really exist at intern and grad level because those programs are all set up. But as you, you know, as you progress beyond the grad scheme and you've gone that, that's where they do, and they can be pretty useful.

Okay, final few then. It took our last few minutes. So just going back to— this could be in a virtual environment, but I guess it's more probably visible in a assessment day, perhaps when it's on-site in person. Is there anything that you observe outside of these structured tasks on a day like that where you're just like, yeah, that's what I want to see? Like a behaviour, for example. Is there anything that you, you kind of like to see outside of just answering the right answers to the questions and so on?

One thing that came to mind actually was when— this was quite a few years ago. Generally, at the assessment days, the assessors will just stay in one room and people just come in and out of that room. You'll be doing some interviews, people come in. I know that one thing happened where someone was quite apparently rude to the front desk person on the assessment day, and we got told in the mock-up, the wash-up. You have these assessments through the day. Then all the assessors, there'll be a wash-up at the end of the day where you're calibrating scores. You're saying, "Right, well, I like this person, this person." Someone else will say, "Well, I didn't actually like them," and you're trying to work out who to give the offers to. There was a situation where someone had been pretty rude and curt to someone that wasn't involved in the assessment day whatsoever. That just came to mind. It's like that was an absolute own goal from that individual because they obviously didn't get through. As soon as you're in the building, just remember you're you're sort of, you know, you're always under the watch and your behavior is always going to be sort of looked at. I mean, I think just general, you can sort of tell sometimes when people are just comfortable with the other candidates as well. We talked a bit about, you know, collaboration and things like that. Yes, you are against these, against these other people on the assessment day, but, but I think that sometimes if you're sort of too competitive and too sort of self-minded, it can come across outside of those assessments a little bit. So try not to see them as like, you know, the enemy on, on these days. Yes, it's gonna be 10 candidates, there'll be 6 offers or something like that, but there's definitely been cases where people have just come across not, not as strongly with, you know, in the interactions with each other outside of the assessments that, that people just pick up a little bit of a vibe and it might put them off. Cool.

All right, so final question. If there was one trait that you think, if you distill it down as to what you would look for if you were hiring for a position on your desk, people generally have— we can assume the academic requirement is all fairly equal. So what is it that when it comes down to it that you're looking for?

Yeah, it'd be one thing, and that is intellectual curiosity. So you don't have to have all the academics, you don't have to have had all the, the experience, but if you've clearly evidenced that you've gone out and you're really passionate about that industry— so I'm in equities, I mean value equities is the desk that I sit on— if someone's, you know, clearly shown an absolute love and interest for value equities, I think that will make up for so many other things. If they're not great at communicating, they're super nervous. If they're okay in a group exercise, but not the best maybe, but then they've just come across consistently, they've got a massive passion for the role itself and evidence that I've read these books, absolutely loved. In value investing, there's a ton of books that's been written over the last 100 years. So I've read all these books, actually run my little own portfolio. It's got no money in, which is fine. People always say, how do I have to have a portfolio? No, not necessarily. If you've got a virtual one, you know, and you've discussed these ideas, or I've looked up, you guys own this stock, why is it a value investment? For me, that's not value because it's trading on this multiple or whatever. He's like, oh my God, this person's like so, so interested in this. I think that makes up for so many other things. It's a super strength. So this is nice because actually it comes back to one of that first questions. It's like, do I apply for loads of places? Do I apply for, you know, a few? Really trying to find out what you're passionate about, where your skills are going to be best suited to, is so important. Yes, you can change later on, etc., but if you can find that one area that you're really passionate about, that will make life a lot easier through the whole assessment. And in such curiosity is something I— we look for all the time.

All right, cool. Well, look, we're going to wrap up the session there. Um, I know this has been live And so there's only so many people that can join, but what I'll probably do is this is the audio is all recorded. So I'll probably put it into a wrapper in a podcast and put it, put it out there. So as many people as possible can benefit. So yeah, Ben, absolute pleasure. Great to see you, hear your insights and share your advice. Thank you very much.

Cheers, Anthony, and best of luck everyone.