Investment Banking to Private Equity

Welcome back to The Deal Room, and we have a guest on the show this week. So not Stephen, but Philip, who I was trying to think, Philip, when I first met you, it was, I think it was 20, maybe 2015, 2016. So the years are stacking up, but the reason why this is going to be a great conversation is when I met you, you were a student kind of thinking about the application process. What job should I go for? You know, I think you were at the time, there's the LSE Summer School or something like that was going on. And so, and so now you've obviously spent some time working at a major investment bank on the sell side in, in banking, and now you're working on the buy side in private equity. I thought you'd be a great person to share some insights because there's a lot of students who are looking to follow that kind of path. There's probably lots of unanswered questions, but then I know you were also involved with a lot of the hiring processes and design of programs when you were at Citi, for example. So would love to jump into that, but perhaps by way of introduction, you could give us a little short history of yourself. Would be great.

Absolutely. Thanks, Anthony. And always great to be chatting and interacting with Amplify. As you mentioned, I came across you guys in my second year of university. I studied at Hult International Business School, which has a campus in London, including some other locations, but I spent all my time there essentially studying a bachelor's in business administration with concentration in finance. And after that, I have completed a summer internship with Citibank Tap Capital Markets team in Hong Kong, decided to take the full-time return offer and then spent around 3, 3.5 years with a team in Hong Kong focusing on both high yield, investment grade bond origination essentially. And after that, I decided it's time to switch things around a little bit and I transferred to real estate investment banking team here in London. Spent around a year with the team and again decided that it's time to switch things around a little bit more. And I changed to a private equity firm called Activum SG, which is a specialist real estate mid-market value-add player. and, uh, I'm with them at the moment for almost 2 years now.

Yeah. So there, there's a lot to unpack there from being in different geographic areas to sell-side, buy-side, different roles. But perhaps, um, we could start with the kind of the period of where we're at right now was a lot of people are waiting to hear back with offers, still in an application process. So how was that experience for you if you could cast your mind back?

Yeah. Uh, I think stressful is, uh, probably the first word that comes to my mind. Um, my university, as much as it was fun and great learning experience because it was more of an American style with a lot of case studies, presentations, et cetera, it was a non-target school for finance roles. And so to whoever has to click other on the application form when they are filling their university name, I know how that feels. And because of that, you as a student had to do, let's say, more than some others that were in more traditional target universities for finance. And, you know, one of Those initiatives was, of course, Amplify trading course that I did. And then at the time I also recognized that name of recognized university on CV is important, for example. So I did the LSE Summer School course and I did some volunteering on the side as well, just to differentiate myself a little bit. But that's kind of the experience. It was quite a busy period because of course you are trying to juggle primarily the studies, trying to maintain good grades, but also trying to kind of differentiate yourself, study for the applications, and hopefully have some fun on the side as well as a university student. So it was a quite quite an eventful period, uh, for sure. And, and, and indeed, we'll, we'll go into the details, uh, shortly. But I think, overarching, a comment would be, if you feel confused, overwhelmed, and stressed, that's certainly— you're not alone.

Yeah. So what, what was your, your tactic then? So coming from a non-target school, did you have to go higher volume? And how then did you balance out the volume-quality kind of— yeah, balance?

I think I, after first year where I came in to London, and it took me that entire first year to kind of just understand and map out not only the realm of opportunities in different areas of finance but also kind of gain that conviction that I want to go into finance and just figuring out the process, the application process, the spring weeks, the summer internships, and that ladder. So I wouldn't say I lost the first year, but I was certainly a little bit behind the curve of, you know, the cohort that is super up to speed from day one at the major universities that has done spring weeks and introductory internships at some of the institutions. So for me, it was really about going all out and really trying to do everything I can to increase my chances. And in that regard, I essentially decided that I will try to maintain acceptable level of grades. In the end, I managed to do relatively well, so that was okay. But in terms of a mindset, I was 100% focused on the applications and the summer internships as the priority number one. And that was just a function of being in the non-target university at the time. I believe right now it's slightly better, but still, my recommendation would actually be if somebody is really has that conviction that finance and investment banking, for example, or private equity, asset management, etc., are the career routes that they 100% want to try, and they are currently not at target university, broadly defined, then the application process for summer internships or any kind of internships should be priority. So that was step number 1 in terms of kind of realizing the playing field, if you will, and then finding different avenues to optimize the search. So I would say it is very important to first understand what it is about finance that excites you and what it is that you find interesting and which area actually is a priority number one Is it really the M&A that everybody's talking about, or actually are you more interested in the asset management side of finance or trading? And I think that prioritization helps a lot because I don't think you can apply to every single program that is out there and you will lose a little bit of quality along the line. As well, because if you are focusing on too many things, then that— it probably becomes too much in terms of preparation and, and focus as well. So I think that's very important. And for me personally, when I did the Amplify course back then, I think it was a 1 or 2 week course, and at the time it was only focused on the asset management and the trading and the hedge fund side of the finance universe, a little bit of macro research as well. But there was not that much on corporate finance. And when Anthony Cheung, you sent me the presentation, which now includes corporate finance and various other areas of finance, I think it's incredibly useful to try it out. You will never get to fully understand until you try something, I think. So until you have that internship and the first experience, you know, you can't 100% understand and decide whether that is the journey you should go. But at the same time, this kind of courses and experiences give you a flavor, do a massive thing because then you can decide, okay, I will focus on 1, 2, and 3 areas and I will develop an application system and I will go after that. So that helped massively at the time and it just kind of sets you on a momentum as well. I did it conveniently. I think it was end of August or beginning of September. In terms of the timeline, and that was just perfect timing because it's start of application season. So you get up to speed with macroeconomics, which is a massive part of the application process, and it just sets you on a really good journey from there in terms of that momentum. So I think that as a starting point is, is critical. And then you have a lot of great people from Amplify that have substantial industry experience, and now you interact a lot also with, you know, HR departments, etc., where you will advise on CVs and how to kind of develop that system, which kind of brings me to the next point of reference, and that kind of application system where you develop almost, or hopefully, actually, um, specifically a spreadsheet for your applications where you list all the firms that you like or you could see yourself working for, what programs, internships they have to offer, and then what is the deadline, how far you are in a process, because Day 1, it seems all very clear and you feel confident, you have visibility and you are aware, but comes week 3 or 4 together with the studies and few university parties, you lose track a little bit of where you are at each stage of a process. And hopefully you have, you know, you have applied to a lot of programmes to increase your chances and it just gets overwhelming. So if you have a system within that application process, that will serve as a kind of a stepping stone each time you sit down in a library or a café. You don't have to start from scratch and you don't feel like, oh, I don't know what to prepare for, but you have it clearly and planned so you can optimise that. Energy and time that is very limited during that process. So once you have that system and hopefully you get some first opportunities to speak with people from the firms, you know, first round, second round interviews, largely today there is actually a video recording first, then it is with actual person. So once you have that system, I would advise to actually make sure that you have solid basics in terms of the priority areas that you are applying to, whether it's, uh, let's say M&A. Know very basic things, what that is, you know, how can a company acquire another company, what are very basic ways to value companies, etc., so that you are not caught off guard. Because, um, at the beginning it will be a lot of silence when you apply, and then all of a sudden people start reaching out and you might have a lot of conversations scheduled in a narrow time frame. So you want to be confident and have at least those basics in place so that you can then be more specific and let's say study the firm that you're applying to, check out the background of the interviewer that will speak with you, and just do a bit more work to come across more prepared. And I think that's very much underestimated because a lot of people jump ahead of the curve a little bit and they start to think, oh, how can I, you know, differentiate myself? How can I impress and I will deep dive on this cool deal transaction or, or, or macro theme that I see in the news. But actually nailing the basics and coming across prepared is important.

Okay, cool. So let's fast forward then and say you're on the internship because I think a lot of the students, rightly so, this time of year are so focused on that. It's almost like a sigh of relief. They get the offer, then they down tools, wait until the summer, and then they kind of go, all right, now I'm here for 10 weeks. Now, now what do I do? But you and I know that that 10-week period is, is a prolonged, almost interview situation. So yeah, having you been on an internship as an intern, having you also work with HR to design an internship program, and then you also probably have line managed then their years thereafter interns, So what advice would you give to them when they're on the internship itself?

Yeah. Um, great question. And there is a million ways to go about it, but I would label that internship as one unbelievable opportunity, not only to hopefully get the full-time offer, which should always be, um, the aim. Even though you might realize during the experience that it might not be ideal job for you, the aim for full-time offer should always be there, just in terms of credentials. But you will be in a position of amazing power from the day that you receive the offer, and that power actually is to solicit and get, actually gets meetings with a lot of people, a lot of senior people within the firm. I remember my experience, and I remember a lot of interns having a mindset of being a little bit worried and scared to be proactive, and I think it might come to a little bit of a waste because As an intern, you will get majority of the coffee chats, lunch, catch-up requests that you ask for, because in minds of people, it's very different than when, for example, full-time analyst or associate reaches out a few years down the line. So I would advise to use that power to its full potential and I'll just mention my personal experience/story in a summary. I've reached out to somebody from adjacent team, not even my team of the internship that I was going for. I think it was 2-3 months after I got an offer, but I just couldn't wait to interact with that environment and I was so excited that I wanted to speak to somebody, ask questions and just say, hey, you know, once I'm on the floor, it would be great to, you know, meet in person, grab a coffee, etc. That person ended up on the committee that was deciding who to retain for full-time offers. And that person became one of my really key mentors and great friends going forward. And I think that call that random cold call, I would call it, was really a first step when the person realized, okay, this is a proactive individual, and so it would be worth kind of my time to help them and to interact with them. So little things like this can actually turn out to be massive or major, uh, career movers.

And then how about when you then start to go analyst, kind of 1, 2? So that first 1 or 2 years, again, it's kind of the next evolution of that. You secured the role. What's the atmosphere like? And how do you— with your other peers within your cohort? And then how do you navigate those first few years? in terms of your role. Do you stick with your role to master the technicals of that? Do you have accessibility to other roles, like you said, adjacent to that and other opportunities? How long do you give it before you start voicing those sorts of things?

Yeah.

Yeah. Good to get your, your take.

Great question. I would say, of course, with the caveat that I will speak from experience of starting in investment banking. And specifically in a product team, which was Debt Capital Markets. So, but I think it will be relevant across the board, to be honest. So I think first-year analyst still retains good degree of that great power to reach out to a lot of people and ask any kind of questions. You cannot ask stupid questions anymore, and unfortunately, actually, there are such questions as stupid questions. As an intern, there is unlimited power to ask them, but as a first-year analyst, not so much anymore. Then you still retain flexibility to kind of get away with asking for help, and that you should definitely utilize as much as possible. Um, and I would say the key important thing is now you are on the job, whether it's your first choice, first priority in, in, in life or in career or not— sometimes it's not, or sometimes you're just unsure— I think the key most important thing is just to make sure that you do as good job as possible and really focus on what people expect from you. If it's unclear, feel free to clarify and, and make sure that you just deliver the best piece of work that you can. And even if it's not to the expectations or whatever, of the surroundings, that's okay. I think it's more important to focus on that mindset and focus on that attitude rather than anything else, because coming from non-target university, not only it's a different dynamic, but also I felt I was a little bit behind in terms of, let's say, the technical knowledge that some other peers in my analyst class had. There were students with master's degrees, with various other internships before at comparable institutions. So that technical part of job was always a nut to crack for me in the first 18 months. And I felt that big time. And you will enter a lot of periods where you feel under a massive amount of pressure and you, you know, you are battling a little bit in self-confidence, etc. But my strong recommendation would be to hang in there and try to do the best you can. And people will realize soon that it's not just about them, it's just the way how the industry is. And At the end of the day, sooner or later, the technical part of the job, you will pick it up by just by nature of doing it sooner or later. So I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as the attitude is right, as long as the approach is right and you can see the effort. I would never, I would never let's say I would never look in a bad way on the juniors, on analysts. As soon as you will start to show signs of, let's say, weaker attitudes where people can get frustrated with things, etc., then I think that would be actually a bigger deal than maybe not as great attention to detail, for example. And just speaking of this, practical advice that I noted down when I was thinking about what advice could I share is twofold. So first, what I think is really useful when you start working with somebody or when you land at a desk Ask that VP, director, associate, whoever you are working with, MD, doesn't matter, what is the best piece or a couple of pieces of work that they have recently seen, whether it's a presentation, whether it's a model, uh, an email summary, whatever that is, and ask them to send that to you. Go through that and ask them afterwards, after you've gone through that, ask them, um, what it is that you like about this piece of work. Write that down, remember it, and every other project, every other task that you get after that, whether it's for same person or not, use that piece of work as a comparison. So I would do a presentation pitch to a, a completely different client on one screen, and I would have that best piece of work that somebody else has done before me, a superstar analyst associate, whoever, on the other side. And even throughout the process, but especially at the end, I would go side by side, compare, review. And not only that will open up, let's say, suggestions even for a new analysis, new page to add, etc., which people in banking love, you know, initiative and additional work. That's what people love. But also, maybe it's personal to me, but I think it's relevant generally as well. Human brain works super well when you have a comparison or a benchmark against. And so looking at, let's say, uh, analysis, uh, some of the parts analysis for two completely different companies in different countries, you would— might— you might think that that doesn't make much sense, but just by comparing the two, it will open up this process in the brain that will pick up things that you would not Otherwise. So I think that is one practical advice that I use day to day, even in my current job, I would review every single legal document or commercial document with a precedent on the other side. And not because I want to compare, let's say, you know, are we agreeing appropriate fee levels, et cetera, because that can be really dependent on the deal or a situation, but this document, that is precedent document, has a clause X, Y, and Z. We don't have that here. Why we don't have that? You know, and that just introduces that opportunity to ask a question. Have we forgotten it, or is this not relevant, or is the other side trying not to introduce that conversation? And that can be quite you know, a game changer, uh, when, when, when that happens, uh, for example. So, so, so that would definitely be something that, um, uh, I would, I would do right away.

Yeah, that's great. I love that practical advice because it's not so simple, so effective, but perhaps something that people wouldn't even consider. So that was really cool. One thing then was you, your early career was spent in DCM. Now, when you search online about DCM, you can kind of get the description of what the job is. Stephen talks about it a little bit. What I would love to know is something that you can't find when you search on internet, which is what is the reality of facilitating that role? Because I know when I did catch up with you maybe a few years ago, you were kind of traveling like crazy. And, and perhaps that's something that people don't consider So yeah, what, what were some of the highlights of good things and some of the things that maybe people haven't thought of when they think DCM?

Yeah, I think, um, DCM, uh, is just as a quick recap, it's a product team within investment banking machine, right? It's a way how companies, uh, raise debt essentially. Um, it's a typically part of a broader division at the investment banks, which is capital markets. And that includes equity, that includes projects, let's say, debt, that includes all various other things. So you are essentially a piece of a broader puzzle. And I think Capital markets themselves, and especially debt capital markets, are great place for people that like a little bit higher tenacity and velocity of the deals. Because deals in debt capital markets would last anywhere from few months to few days, right? A repeated issuer that's does a bond every year, let's say, or multiple times a year, would have a lot of, let's say, work in terms of documentation, etc., and infrastructure internally set up so that they can execute very opportunistically depending on the market. So if you like to see a lot of end-to-end projects through, then that's an excellent place for you to start or to dedicate your career to. And inherently you will have a lot of exposure to clients, I think, from day one. For me personally, it was assisted by being in an emerging market where the exposure is even larger. The teams are a little bit leaner on the investment banking side, but also on the client side, you would have much leaner teams. Whereas here in Europe, large repeated issuers, big companies would have their own capital markets teams, which would have analysts, associates, etc. So you would not perhaps directly interact with the treasurer. But for example, in Hong Kong, where I was based for a period of time, I was covering Singaporean banks issuing across senior and bank capital. And there we would speak directly to the treasurer almost on a daily basis when he was in a deal context. So I think the exposure to the clients directly is slightly higher there than in a traditional M&A and investment banking. Of course, it can be situation and team dependent, but I think those would be quite big advantages. And you get to see a lot of companies, right? Because if you are an M&A or investment banking division analyst or associate, you might get deployed in one deal that is taking a year or more. And so you will interact with one client in one sector, let's say, or subsector, and one type of a company. So you might not even get exposure to a lot of other things, um, until, uh, some years down the line. Whereas in debt capital markets, you know, you are typically subclassified to investment grade or high yield and maybe corporates and financial institutions, but Within investment-grade corporates, you could be looking at, you know, a chemical company, TMT, oil and gas, anything. So just that exposure to different things is much broader. And if you are an individual that is more focused on the variety rather than depth of detail, that's— it's a great place.

And what about— not to put you under too much pressure, but what, what's like the biggest challenge then of doing that? Is it just literally the intensity can get pretty hardcore sometimes, and then just keeping pace?

I think that's definitely, um, item to highlight. If you struggle with planning your day almost hour to hour, minutes to minute. It can be a tricky role because when there are live deals and live pitches, etc., I remember planning my days in different time zones because you would be working on a deal that is, you know, for, let's say, a Thai issuer so they would be in a different time zone. Then you are working also with London colleagues because you are issuing a euro, uh, so it's sold to the European investors, so that time zone. And, and plan each of the calls for the right parties, right? So, so if you love that, if you love planning and, uh, organizing to really tiny, tiny detail Again, it's a great role. If not, it might be a challenge. I think when I say multitasking, I mean switching from one task to another very quickly. It's a great skill to have in this kind of a job. It can get quite busy. And personally, I would say consideration was that I actually understood, uh, after a couple of years that I would really like to go a little bit deeper in terms of details about, you know, what the company does, uh, where and how the value is actually generated. Um, and in the debt capital markets, you don't necessarily get that because you are more focused on the product itself, so the bond. And on the process, right, raising that bond, it's more of a capital market oriented because the company itself most oftentimes have its credit rating, it's been around, so investors know the company more or less. So there is much less of actual credit-specific work. In some high yield sub-investment grade bonds, that might be more relevant where you would calculate a little bit the impact of the bond that you would be raising. But to be honest, at least in my experience, we often had the investment banking team assist on that piece of analysis. So as a product team, you wouldn't really get involved that much in, in that. Actually, that was a trigger point in my career where I realized that actually I would really love to do that analysis myself and understand what the company does more. It was specifically inaugural bond, rated bond, sorry, for Lenovo, the company maker, right? And we have been working on it, on it in Asia. We have done some unrated bonds for them before. But now there was this massive rating exercise where company has to open itself up a little bit more and you need to assess what are their leverage ratios, etc. And so that was super interesting for me. But at the same time, we worked together with ratings and investment banking team. So me personally, I was more focused on actual the, you know, the depth product, the bond product and the process, how to originate that, you know, who are the best investors, which is cool work and it's great. I loved doing that for 2 years or so, but that was a little bit of a point where I was, when I thought I would really love to understand more of the details that underpin that value of a company.

Cool. So, so perhaps we could talk a little bit about, um, something that a lot of students going into banking aspire to do, which is this transition going from a sell-side investment bank, doing this kind of, I guess it's a little bit Chinese whispers. It's like, oh, you do 2 or 3 years and then you just go and work on the buy side. So just walk me through What is that? What, how closely is the reality to this perception that a lot of students at university have? And then we could move on into the differences in culture and working life and balance between the two.

I would say it's much harder than it sounds. Um, certainly in this market, uh, if the market is great and there is a lot of transactions, et cetera. It's very easy and natural to make the transition, but I think we have come out from the macro backdrop of, let's say, virtually free money, and it would be some time before we return there, if we ever return there. So if you don't have really a strong market backdrop when you are making the switch, it's not as easy, especially not to get the, let's say, the best spots, um, in the best places. So I would say careful with kind of that plan. You, you can always have it in the back of your mind and eventually you can make that switch, but it's harder than it And it seems, and when you are working investment banking pace, let's say, um, there will come a time where you have to do a lot of sacrifice in terms of energy, time, and everything to make that switch. But generally, I would, I would say it's possible. Um, and I think starting in investment banking gives quite a good solid base in terms of broader and general knowledge because a lot of the private equity funds, right, well, majority of the funds are very specialized in terms of what they do, right? Do they do TMT? What specifically within TMT sector are they doing? What kind of strategy? Is it buyouts? Is it distress? Is it Is it actually private credit? Right. So I think a broader knowledge base and exposure to things is very beneficial to understand yourself mostly. Right. Who am I as a person? What excites me the most? Is it, you know, really the M&A deals or is it more of a kind of a closer to venture capital where I like to seed an idea with an investment and see it grow over time, or is it more transactional? So I think starting in investment banking broadly is great. However, at the same time, if you really know already as a student, for whatever reason, a family background, or you met somebody from private equity industry and you just really want to do that for sure, 100%. I think today there are avenues to skip to that point directly. A lot of the major largest, uh, houses have their own internships these days, and they can potentially get you back full-time as well. So if you really know that that is something that you want to do you might not need to go through the usual 2 to 3 years because once you have done those 2 to 3 years, you typically come into private equity industry as an analyst in any case. So you could be better off going in directly. But I think as a student, Even though you might have strong opinions within your P network or your family or whoever it is that tells you to specialize earlier, I think it's quite an ambitious approach to say that you know yourself and you know that this is what I want to do. And I guarantee you that it will change in the first 3 to 5 years of the career. There are exceptions, but I think it's good to understand and realize as a student that you are at a time of your life where you will change a lot. Your perception of things, your opinions will change a lot. So to keep that flexibility in one's career, I think it's very it's, it's very useful.

I always find talking to students that they, they seem to think that once you get into private equity, then it's kind of feet on the table. I've been exhausted for 3 years, now I can relax and let the money roll in. But I'm assuming the higher ticket that you can have in remuneration in PE comes with a different degree of expectation. So can you explain to me a little bit more about a that work-life balance differential between the sell side, buy side? But then also, why is it then in PE it's so sought after? And what is it then that, that is the level of expectation? That, what is the pressure?

Yeah, um, yeah, good question, because, um, I understand that every industry from time to time becomes the, you know, the sexy thing and the attractive pathway to follow. I would say the differences are from experience, and it might be different at the different firms, but the work-life balance in terms of actually sitting down behind a computer, typing and moving the mouse, much better on the buy side. However, in terms of actual mental energy, I would say the stakes, personal stakes, are higher on the buy side. Because if, if you are, um, an advisor working for an investment bank, you are of course very invested in the transaction. But if the transaction let's say happens, everything great, you close the massive multi-billion deal that you get to put on a CV, you learn a lot, amazing, you move to the next one. However, from the investor side, the private equity side, you are putting a lot of money at work and you are making a lot of judgment calls and you will be evaluated and judged as well on your judgment calls that you made for the next years to come until the investment is realized. And hopefully it performs well. But along the line, there will be a lot of points and situations where people will come to you and question, was that really a right decision to underwrite it this way, to structure it this way? Did the business plan go by the way it was structured? And the answer is always no. Hopefully it went kind of the same way, or at least the key milestones were achieved, or sometimes overachieved, right? But what I'm trying to explain is that that deal, that decision, lives with you almost for the rest of your life. right? And that's a very different pressure and that's a very different feeling that you experience. And so yes, it might be less work, let's say, behind the actual computer. You'll do less slides, less modeling on absolute basis, although there is a lot of modeling, of course. On the private equity side. But then, you know, on the weekend where you have your free time, you know, on a random occasion, the thoughts would go back to you and you would think, is this the right company that we are buying? Is this the right building in the real estate that I look at? Is this the right location? And then when you get to the investment committee, you need to justify all your views and the decisions. You can't just say, oh, because the comps and the precedents average in this number, so we go with this number. There has to be a broader story. There has to be broader thought process behind it. So it's a very different mindset, I would say. Between, between the two.

Okay. Well, look, coming, coming to the end of the conversation, I don't know how far you've thought about this, but I'd love to know, like, so we started back in 2016, let's say when we first interacted. Here we are almost 10 years down the line. What do you reckon Philip in 10 years' time will be?

Amazing questions. As always, Anthony Cheung. Well, the honest answer is I don't know the actual answer. Do I have a plan? Most definitely, yes. I personally work with a career and life coach to kind of nail that down. And I feel that at the moment I'm in a great place with a lot of potential upside if things go very well in my current firm. And so I definitely want to see that realized and see how far we can go. And ultimately, I think, you know, in the investment and private equity business is an arena that presents a lot of attractive, you know, upsides along the way if you pay attention and if you play smart. So look, the founder CEO of the firm that I work for, right, started the firm after years of experience working for somebody else in the private equity industry. So, you know, that's kind of a more entrepreneurial journey. It is on the table along the line, whether it's on a more general basis, right? You know, you can start your own fund looking at value-add opportunistic strategy, or maybe it can be something more specific, right? There is a big theme of being more specialized in private equity these days and focusing on one niche subsector because, for example, those individuals have acquired a large amount of assets within a platform that then may potentially spin out. So there is a lot of interesting things on the table, and at the same time you gain a lot of experience to think like an entrepreneur, because at the end of the day, that's what you are, just with somebody else's money and interacting with hopefully a very smart management team. But at the end of the day, you make the most important calls at the beginning and throughout the journey. So you get exposure to that thinking process. And I think in the long, long term, I would love to explore that entrepreneurial side, creating something of my own, whether it's, whether it's in private equity, whether it's a vertical or whether it's something completely different as a business. But I think long term, that would be a very neat thing to try.

That's really cool. And thank you so much, Filip, for your time. And, you know, watching your development and your journey is what makes working at AmplifyMe so fulfilling. And, you know, going— we met for lunch, what, 2 or 3 weeks ago? And having what was then the student take me out for lunch. That's just when you know that hopefully I've done a good job and that person's outperformed me. And then, uh, you know, long may that trajectory continue. So thank you, Filip.

Absolutely. And you guys were instrumental in that journey as, as we mentioned at the beginning. So always great to, to catch up and, and support and, and share my experience wherever, uh, helpful.

Great stuff. Thank you, Filip.

Thank you.