Nick Leeson: The Rogue Trader Who Broke Barings Bank | $1.3BN Losses & The Pressure to Succeed

The total sums, I mean, I lost £862 million over that period. I caused the collapse of a 233-year-old merchant bank.

Whenever I go back and read about your story, how young you were.

The plan when I was at school was always to go to university. I came from a very, very working-class family. You know, I was offered a job at Coutts and Company, which was the Queen's Bank. I think I was really lucky because of the timing. I went into the City in 1984. '95, you got Big Bang. We were both a similar age and we were building a career at Morgan Stanley. Through decisions that we made shortly after that, he went on to be the managing director of Morgan Stanley and I went to jail.

What was the level of stress that led to our decisions that you made?

Stress came with what I wanted to do, which was to succeed. It's not that external forces were putting the pressure on me, it was all inside. Everybody knows what doing the right thing is. Anybody who tells you that it's pressure to perform, to perform and all this sort of stuff that puts them into that situation is just lying.

Why do you fear failure so much?

Because I want success and everything is success. There's no barrier, or you perceive that there's no barrier to that success. Failure just gets less and less of an option or more and more of an ogre. It's a great question, right? And I don't think I've been asked it in 20 years. 20-odd, 30 years.

Okay, hi Nick, really fantastic to have you on the Market Maker podcast. How are you?

Yeah, I'm good, good. Running around a little bit today, but yeah, looking forward to it. Cool.

Well, look, just a bit of context for you. So a lot of the people that listen to our show are in their early 20s, so a lot of them might not be fully familiar with the story of of yourself, the rogue trader, Barings Bank. So I'd love for this conversation to go into, you know, that, that journey, that story, because it's a pretty incredible one. And then also more a lot of the lessons learned. I'm sure in self-reflection there's, there's plenty, and I'd love for young people to, to learn from some of those challenges and things that you, you went through. So perhaps probably the best framing is to go back to the very beginning, um, of your, your early childhood and and what were you thinking at that, that formative years of your life about what were you going to do for a job?

I don't think I ever thought about it, to be honest with you. Um, I think the plan when I was at school, at senior school, was, was always to go to university. You know, like, I came from a very, um, a very working-class family. We lived on a council estate in Watford. Um, and so, you know, if there was a if there was a target, I suppose it was— and not that I thought in these terms— but it would have been the first person from my family, if you like, to, to go to university. Um, now that would have worked anyway because I was the oldest, but there was no real— you know, I was, you know, I was a very normal kid. Um, I did well academically, um, from an early age. Um, but, you know, I was playing a lot of football, messing around, and doing the things that most kids do at that sort of age, but never had a really clear idea of where I was going from a, uh, from a business perspective. Um, you know, degree was the first thing. You know, my, my youngest son is at university at the moment, and, um, you know, I, I think it's over, um, it's over-egged. I mean, I don't think there's any need, uh, to go to university. I think it's, it's one of those, you know, when you look back on your life and you look back at things that you did and you didn't do, it, it's just one of those stepping stones to getting a job. But once you get the job, it's all about you at that point and how good you are, how hard you work. And it's not, you know, how much does what you learn at university, um, really tie into that? I think it's very little. Um, you know, it's, you know, it shows that you can, you know, you can follow a course and you can learn independently, probably to a little degree. Um, but I don't think it really sets you up for the world that you're gonna walk into. So, you know, I think My plan was to go and read law at university, but you know, that never happened. I, uh, you know, I, I failed one of my A-levels, which probably precluded me from doing that anyway. Um, and, um, you know, I was offered a job at Coutts and Company, which was the Queen's Bank in England. Um, you know, I'd never heard of it before. A few friends from the school that I went to were applying there, so I thought, that sounds quite good, I'll have a go at that. And a couple of us got interviews and you know, I was the only one that was offered a job, um, and that's what I did.

So what was that job then? Because a lot of the young people I talk to, they've always got quite high aspirations these days. But where did you start then at Coote's?

Well, I started at the bottom. Um, you, uh, I mean, you know, Coote's probably had about, um, 11 or 12 branches at the time. Um, you had to be very wealthy to have a bank account there. Um, you know, that Coote's on the Strand is is where the, uh, where the royal family actually bank. There's a branch in there called Buckingham, um, and they look after their accounts. Um, so, you know, I, I don't know how they worked out who was going where. I know that's part of what your, what your business is, as you described it to me at the beginning. And they certainly didn't have people like you, uh, in, uh, in Coote's back in those sort of days. So this would have been, you know, 1985 that I started work for Coote's. But somebody somewhere decided that I was going to 15 Lombard Street. So it was, you know, if you walk out of Bank tube station and you walk onto Lombard Street, it's right in front of you. So at the time, that was the heart of the city, you know. The city— parts of the city have decamped and gone to Canary Wharf over, over the last couple of decades, and a few of them have gone back now. But, you know, 15 Lombard Street was very much the heart of the city. It was the town. So, you know, one of the things that we used to do was town clearing. Now, you're— I don't know how old you are, Anthony, but you might not know what town clearing is either. So, you know, if you, if you had a check from a town clearer, so it used to have a T after the sort code, you could deliver those checks on a daily basis to the clearinghouse and you would receive payment for them. And so the clearinghouse was just below 15 Lombard Street as well. Just in the little alleyway that goes through there. That was where the clearinghouse used to be. So we used to collect the town checks throughout the day, you know, total those up, and then you'd bring them to the clearinghouse. You'd give Lloyds their checks, you'd give NatWest their checks, and at the end of the day, after those are all processed, you know, there'd be several million pounds that would go in either direction for those checks. So that was one of the jobs I used to do, but it was very manual. So, you know, the checks have been presented to the cashiers, the cashiers give them to us in the back office part of it, if you like. Those checks are identified, looked after, and then the target at the end of the day is to take them to the clearinghouse, make sure they all get paid. You might get one or two that bounce for some reason, and then settle with the other banks as well.

So someone must have seen the way that you were operating at that point. And gone, do you know what, I think he could actually probably do something else? Or was it a case like, so how did you make like a good impression there?

I think I was really lucky, right? Just, you know, because of the timing of, so, you know, I went into the city in 1985, you've got Big Bang in 1987. So you've got this, you know, you've got this period of deregulation, lots of new banks coming into the city. Um, and that meant there was lots of jobs. So it was really a period where the city went from being, you know, a lot of stockbrokers and my word is my bond type of thing to lots of big new banks and it being other people's money, you know, shareholders' money. And, and I think there was a change in the way that everything transacted over that period, and there was a, there was a real cultural shift as well because of the way those, those organizations would have done things very, very differently. So, you know, Coutts was very much a retail bank, whereas, you know, the new banks that were coming into the city were firms like Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse, all the big investment banks who were coming in, and, and they needed people. So, you know, when you used to get off the, off the tube at Lombard Street, you'd be given one of these little magazines, and, you know, there might be one article in it, and the rest of it was job opportunities. And so with a very small bit of knowledge or experience, you could move around fairly quickly. And so I suppose if I look back at my career in any of the organizations that I worked in, and it was a short career, as I'm sure we'll come on to, um you know, I, I always wanted to be learning something new and doing something new, so I was always a quick learner. But then after I've learned something, if there's not something that's really testing me or giving me a different horizon, then I want to, I want to move on. So in the early years, you know, Coote and Company was a great firm to work for. We had good fun there. There was lots of, you know, there's a good social life, um, and there was a lot of people that came from didn't necessarily come from the same working-class background that I did, but, you know, they were people that you could engage with and get along with. And, you know, the backgrounds weren't, you know, that massively dissimilar. Um, and then after a couple of years, I, you know, I would have been looking through one of those magazines and there would have been a job opportunity at Morgan Stanley. Um, and, and I moved to Morgan Stanley. Um, You know, and, and that's probably the way that it happened. And then you're stepping into a whole different realm of where it's trading, and there's, you know, lots of different, uh, asset classes that you can get involved in, and foreign exchange. And it's a, it's a whole different world from Coutts, which is, you know, fairly plain vanilla banking. You give out a few loans, you know, you clear a few checks, you bounce a few checks, and, and there's a limited scope within that.

So how— because a lot of students as well, it's like that, almost like the fear of going into a scenario of uncertainty like that where there's a big barrier of like terminology to learn, products to get to, you to know, particularly derivatives and things like that. What, what was your mindset at that point going in from, as you said, from what you were doing at Coutts to then at MS?

Well, I don't think I've ever— I don't think I was ever scared of anything. I think you can I think you can build yourself up into a degree of difficulty or complexity that doesn't really exist, right? If you sit back and you take your time and you, you know, you've got a decent trainer or a decent mentor around you, then you'll learn it. I mean, I don't think anything's that complex. I think the world of finance, you know, for many decades liked you to think that it was complex because people really didn't, you know, accepted what they were being told. And then you've got massive you know, you've got decades of mis-selling and lots of other sort of things that have happened in the world of finance over that period, you know, from fairly simple products to, you know, slightly more complex products. But they've often been mis-sold. And I think hiding behind that complexity has always been to the benefit of big banks. But what really, when you sit down and you're, you know, you work your way through it, it's not that difficult. But, you know, to answer your point a little bit further, further, you know, the guys that I worked with at Morgan Stanley, certainly in the futures and options area, were all very good at what they did. So, you know, I was learning from the best, I suppose.

And culturally, at that point, because I know— so I started my career in 2005, and so there was still a few of the old life traders that were prop trading pre-financial crisis, and so they were still some of the the older characters about. Yeah, was there— what was MS like in those days? Was it not like it is today where it's quite corporate, or— and did you fit in socially within that new framework?

Yeah, um, so, so fitting in wasn't, wasn't difficult because I suppose, you know, going back to the way that I described the Big Bang era and all of this opportunity, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure that some of these, you know, the bigger investment banks like Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, and Goldman Sachs would have loved to have taken people with, you know, a double degree, you know, or a first in everything that they possibly did. But that wasn't the environment at the time, you know, because they needed people. And so they weren't necessarily bottom picking, but they were, you know, they were picking people from the middle as well as at the top because there weren't enough. You know, that's me me just being really crude about it. And now, you know, some of those people at the bottom and some of those people are in, in the middle are the absolute best people and have gone on to tremendous success within the, with it, within the finance industry. So, you know, that's definitely not a recipe for success. But, you know, if they were looking at the time, they had to, you know, the focus was that there was a lot of demand, uh, for people and there wasn't a great deal of supply. So whereas the imbalance is always usually the other way, at that particular point in the world of finance, certainly in London, it was geared the other way. So there was lots of banks looking for people. So you could, you know, just to give you an example, and these are crazy examples and they sound like crazy examples, but, you know, I knew people who would change their jobs every 3 months because there would be an opportunity and the opportunity would have a little bit more money attached to it. You know, so somebody might change their jobs 3 times in a year and increase their salary by 10 grand just because there was demand for people. Um, and like I said at the beginning, it was people with not a great deal of experience, you know. Um, they had to take what they, what they could get type of thing, whereas that it's completely the other way now. And, you know, they might be looking for a double first in maths for you to get onto a trading desk. Where you might blow up just as quickly as somebody who doesn't have a degree.

Yeah, I think one of the things that always surprises me whenever I go back and read about your story is how young you were because actually nowadays, someone in their like early mid-20s, so you're 25, unless you're like an absolute rock star, it's unlikely you're going to be given that much managerial responsibility or a book of that magnitude at that early on. So yeah, that book—

Again, yeah, again, I think it's a function of the time. Yeah. And I'm sure that, you know, many of those firms would have wanted it very differently, but you had to work with what you had available at the time. So it was a very young crowd. And, you know, just to, you know, just to talk about Morgan Stanley a little bit, if you like, um, you know, I started off in the Commercial Union building, so, um, near, near the Lloyd's, uh, building. So we were, you know, it's around the junk— you, you had junk bonds at the time. So Michael Milken and, you know, some of the girls, the guys from Drexel Burnham, uh, and, and the way that they were trading at that time. And there, you know, there were scandals about those over the years as well. And then Morgan Stanley moved a few of their offices to the West End, which was strange at the time as well. So the derivatives area was just off Tottenham Court Road. I worked for a little bit in liability management, which was down in Wimpole Street a little bit further. So it was quite fragmented. But yeah, it was a young crowd. You know, most of them would have come from a slightly slightly better economic, socio-economic background than me. But, you know, there was plenty of opportunity. I mean, I went to Japan a few times with Morgan Stanley. I would have been 20, 21 at the time. I remember going with a good friend of mine who's still a good friend now. And we were in Japan and, you know, we were enjoying ourselves whilst we were in Japan. But at the weekends, it was quite a dull place to be, you know. Not too many people end up in Roppongi on the weekend. So, um, you know, we'd sit around and we'd do silly things like we went to Disneyland, uh, together. Two sort of, um, expats going to Disneyland where, where all the Japanese queue up quite formally and we're trying to jump the queue all of the time. But I use that story to explain, um, sometimes an important part for me about the decisions that you make, uh, in your life. So, you know, we were both a similar age, um, and we were building a career at Morgan Stanley. I won't say exactly what department he was in because people will work out, um, who I'm referring to. But, you know, through decisions that we made shortly after that, he went on to be the managing director of Morgan Stanley and I went to jail, you know. So two very, very similar people in, in similar situations, doing quite well for themselves. But, you know, based on the decisions that you make um, uh, you know, ethical dilemmas or whatever they are, um, you know, you end up in very, very different places. And, you know, that, that comes back to me a number of times throughout my story when you look at how other people that I was associated with at that time have gone on to do different things. Um, some have learned lessons and, and have gotten— got involved in scandal slightly before me as well, but learned their lesson and have gone on and prospered and done really, really well. So, you Unfortunately for me, one mistake, well, it's not one mistake, it's one big mistake, but a number of mistakes that over a long period of time, unfortunately defines me for that particular period.

Well, what were you thinking at that point then? So, I mean, I can, in a short period of time, it sounds like you're 20 years old and you're going to Japan where you come from a working class background in Watford. So the world moved pretty quick. Like you said, if you've jumped roles, and I'm assuming the money's coming, increasing along this period of time as well, are you feeling like pretty confident at that point? Like, all this is going well, and then the move, that, that move to Barings then, did that come about as a headhunt, or were you looking actively to go into a certain type of trading role?

Or, um, I, I, I think like, and again, it's one of the things that was probably to my detriment as well. I didn't really— I never really encountered anything that I couldn't cope with, you know. I found, you know, doing reconciliations and stuff like that, I was a lot quicker than everybody else, and it, it just, it just worked for me somehow. And, you know, if, if a reconciliation didn't agree and you had to try and put it all together and break it all down, that was something that I found quite easy. So that sort you know, catapulted me above other people within some of the organizations, um, that I worked for. But again, coming from, you know, coming from some good training when I was at Morgan Stanley with people who were very good at what they did, um, and it— yes, it does give you confidence. I mean, I would hate to have been in a role where I'm sat there every day and can't do it, you know, can't crack the code, because it would be, you know, because other people around you would be right? So you, you're always trying to position where you are, um, or where your capabilities are within that. So I never saw a, a barrier to advancement because I was always able to do what I was asked to do. Um, and, and that was definitely the case at Morgan Stanley. Again, you know, after being at Morgan Stanley for a couple of years, the frustrating thing for me again was I wanted to move on. So Morgan Stanley didn't really have a live operation, so they didn't have, you know, the classic noisy, quite aggressive trading floor or trading operational life. But they did have a guy called James Henderson who was the trader on the London traded options market. So, you know, within the stock exchange, you know, a small part of the stock exchange there in Threadneedle Street or Yeah, probably Threadneedle Street. And so James and I used to get on quite well and I used to do some of the settlements for him and he wanted somebody to come down and work for him and he asked me if I'd like to go. But then the people that I worked for wouldn't let me go. So, you know, you're in that dilemma and you want to get, you know, every— everybody, I suppose, has aspirations of being on a desk or on a trading floor. And the more that you're within the market, that's where you want to go. Um, or certainly was at the time, um, and I didn't see any barrier to that, and I was being offered that opportunity, um, and then the door was kind of— it wasn't shut completely, but it was only left a little bit ajar because James needed somebody then, um, so yeah, I mean, Barings had been looking around for somebody who specialized in Japanese futures and options, which is what I did, but on the settlement side of and I, I went to see them. Um, so it was a headhunt. Uh, I went to see them. They paid big bonuses. The salary was obviously an increase on what I was getting, and I wanted to move on. Um, and, um, you know, they made it clear that there were plenty of opportunities if, um, you know, if I did well. Um, but when I got to Barings, it was— it didn't take 2, 2 years for me to get bored. It took about 9 months. Um, And then I was also— I was immediately again going to the management and saying, you know, unless you've got something else for me to do, I'm gonna move on. Um, because I was, you know, I found it too easy. I wanted something that tested me. You know, I think the one thing that I always used to love about the financial markets is no two days are ever the same. You know, there's always different tests and challenges that will present to you. Um, and that's what I wanted, and that's what I enjoyed, and I didn't want to be doing the same old role every day that you could do without thinking about it. I wanted something that was going to push me and test me and offer advancement. So I went to see Baring. So Baring Securities, the part that I worked for, was formed in 1985. So it was new. It was sort of a, you know, it was formed because of Big Bang and their, you know, they were very big into the tiger economies. Southeast Asia, um, and also were, were highly specialized in the warrant and Japanese derivative markets as well. But settlements was, you know, I'd done it and there was nothing else that it could offer to me. Um, so I went to see Ian Martin and he said, look, we've got an opportunity coming up on the— because they liked me, right? I was always very personable, um, you know, I'd always work hard. Um, I was never, I was never a problem until later. Um, but, um, they didn't know I was a problem then either. That's half the problem. But the, um, yeah, no, so they were always keen for me to advance, and, uh, you know, they knew that I was good at what I did and that I would be able to do whatever they were challenging me with. So I went to see Ian, and Ian said, look, there's we're gonna, um, we're gonna upgrade, uh, membership of the Sydney Futures Exchange, um, and we'd like you to go down there and work on the Sydney Futures Exchange. So like, great, yeah, now I'm going to Australia, even better than some of the trips I've had already. Um, but he said, in the meantime, we've got an issue out in Hong Kong. We're putting together a little bit of a task force to go out and deal with the issue in Hong Kong. Um, I'd like you to go there. So, um, so that was it. I was on a flight to Hong Kong, um, a few days later. I was in Hong Kong for about a month, and then they needed to move a couple of the people down to Jakarta in Indonesia. So I wasn't particularly enjoying Hong Kong at the time, um, so I went down to Jakarta, um, and I was there for about a year. Um, and it was a, you know, it was a settlement issue. They, um, they had a lot of shares that they'd bought from the market that they were trying to pass on to their clients and get paid for. But they were in bad form, so everything was quite manual, you know, it's script trading. So if you owned an equity, it was a bearer stock and it had to be stamped and signed, and quite often there was a signature missing, and we used to have to go around and just clean them up a bit.

So, so at this point, when you then start trading, are you just doing it on your own? Because I know you started to manage a team. So at what point did then being responsible for other people as well as your own actions start to come into what you were doing?

Well, I went back from, um, so I finished off in Jakarta. Like, we were all in Jakarta illegally, so every now and again you'd get a government official coming around checking work permits, and none of us ever had one. And So we used to have to fly into Singapore and renew our visas and come back in. That's quite how dodgy it was during that time, although I'm sure they would never have admitted it. But JP Morgan were at that. Everybody was at a similar sort of scenario down in Jakarta. It was quite dangerous. You know, it wasn't a place that you walked around freely at the time. So we had a bodyguard who'd be with us. He'd pick us up from the hotel, drop us to work, and you weren't allowed to go too many other places, although that did change over time. You know, we got a bit fed up of that, and then we started to go into places that we shouldn't have really been going to. But, um, but that's what we did because we were all young and, uh, you know, wanted to go and look around and see what was going on. Um, but then when I finished in, um, in Jakarta, I went back to London. Uh, they started to build up a business development team who were looking at opportunities in, um, in, in different locations. So they employed a couple of, um, um, business development specialists. Um, one was based in Hong Kong, the other was in, uh, was, was in the UK. Um, so I, I worked in the UK and we looked at different, you know, where we— if Behrings was going to open a new office. So we did that in Frankfurt and then maybe look at opportunities where they wanted to upgrade membership of exchanges, and one of those was the Singapore International Monetary Exchange. So I went out there with a guy called Tony Dickle, who's based in Hong Kong, and we did a review of the operation and what it would cost and what they would need. And, you know, for me, it kind of embodied, you know, a part of the world that I really enjoyed. You know, you were very much a big fish in a small pond. When you were, when you were out in Asia. Um, a business that I knew reasonably well in terms of being futures and options. Um, so I put my hand up and I said I'd like that opportunity. And Tim, who was in London, and, uh, Tony was in Hong Kong, both supported that.

So then, um, yeah, that, that point then of getting into that period of your life then. So when, when, when you're trading From this point on, and then the real kind of the crux of your stories, sort of, that most people are familiar with.

Yeah.

So how, how did that start in terms of— I'm sure it was going well to start with, with that.

I think it, I think it was going well for less time than people imagine it. Um, you know, I think, you know, there's a phrase that that I often use when I'm speaking to audiences, and that phrase is, um, you know, everybody reaches their own level of incompetence. And I kind of did that in Singapore, right? And not that, you know, it— I think you've got somebody had been, you know, I moved to Singapore when I was 25, and up until that point I'd never not succeeded. At what I was doing. So I was used to success, and I was used to a lot of it, and being recognized for that success. And it brings, you know, it brings a certain amount of status, um, and a desire for more success. So, you know, I wrote a book, um, about stress with a psychologist who has a slightly different approach to it than me. But, you know, I always talk about my need for success and he talks about the status relationships. And he ends the first chapter with a phrase which is, when an immature person has status, they will do anything, absolutely anything, to protect it. So there's me thinking, you know, I want all of this success, but I've also got all of these status relationships around me. I'm employing people, I'm building a team that are going to work on the trading floor. So they're all looking to you as, um, not, not as the oracle, but as the person that is going to shape their careers as well. And, you know, there's a certain amount of status within that as well. You've got a board of management in Singapore who don't know a great deal about futures and options, so, you know, it's a slightly different status dynamic. I've got people working the main desk in Japan that I'm working with both on the sales and the trading side of it as well. So those— you've got all of those sort of relationships as well. And then you've got relationship with your, with your wife at home and your family who think you're, you know, you're just this massive success story. And, and that, that, you know, that, that, that's at play as well throughout this period. Um, in the beginning, you know, we're setting up the office in Singapore, we're employing people to work in the settlements department, putting the IT systems together and all of that sort of stuff. And I'm 25 years old, right? From a management expect management experience or expert— like, I'm a baby, right? I haven't— I'm not mature enough to take on this role.

I'm assuming then there's no, like, there's no, um, given the complexity of what you're describing and the speed of making this happen, you're not getting mentored or like—

there's nobody in Singapore knows what a future and option is. You know, there might be somebody who's going to help me with the, with the settlement system, but But again, I would have known that better than them. It was, it was just, you know, so you had Baring Securities Singapore, which would have been the equity trading arm of the business. And, you know, 98% of the people involved in Singapore were involved in that business. That's what they were good at. That's what their expertise was. And like, I'm being dropped on them and reporting to them. And there was a bit of animosity in the beginning because, you know, my salary didn't fit in with what people were being paid. So the first battle that we had was with Simon Jones, who was the head of the operations department. And, you know, he didn't want me getting X salary, he didn't want me getting a housing allowance of Y, he didn't want me— you know, there were so many different things. So in the end, I actually took a pay cut to go to Singapore because it was the opportunity I craved more than anything else. You know, it wasn't a money— you know, it's not give me another 20 grand and I'll go to Singapore. That wasn't the equation. So whereas most of the people, and Simon included, would have lived near Orchard Road, which was right in the center of Singapore, I was out in Bukit Timah because the housing allowance I was given, that's what it— that's what we could afford. It's still lovely, right? But it wasn't the— now at the end, I'm in Orchard Road, or close to Orchard Road, where where everybody else was. But at the beginning, it was a bit of a battle, and you could see that. So from a, you know, from a cultural, uh, perspective, it was always up against it. Now, I used to get on well with Simon Jones, um, but I get on well with everybody, right? But you might— I might not actually like you, but I'll get on with you because for me you know, working at any of those banks was always, um, you know, being able to get on with people was always a part of succeeding and moving on. You know, why do you want to fight people at work and cause issues and arguments? It's just not, it's just not worth it. It's easier to get through the day. And, um, yeah, I, I got asked at an event in South Africa many years ago, it's actually, it was actually on a board meeting of a big South African bank, and Anthony Cheung, you know, I was there as a guest and a speaker, and, um, you know, they asked me what did I think was, you know, the biggest skill that allowed me to get to where I got to within the world of banking. And, you know, obviously I was, you know, I was, um, very accurate. Um, I, I used to be very quick. I was very diligent. You know, I used to work, uh, you know, every hour that was needed to get the job done. And those, those were all a given, I think, because you know, you need all of that. But I, I also think I was very socially adept, you know. I could, I could walk into a room, a very blue-blooded room of, you know, the people that went to Eton, that went to Oxford and Cambridge, and, and get along. I didn't have to like them, but, you know, they would never have guessed that. They would have thought I was their best friend all of the time. But equally so, you know, and, and this is the other extreme, and not too many people are going to experience this extreme, but I also survived in gang-infested, um, you know, triad-run gang in prison because I got along with everybody, you know. Um, and so being socially adept in two very, very different, uh, scenarios, um, and I, I think it's the— I, I definitely think it's my biggest skill. And, um, you know, one of the things that we were talking about earlier before we came on air, and, you know, I said my son is university at the moment, and he— I don't actually know what degree he's doing, right, which is terrible, I suppose. I know it's a business degree. I know there's, you know, there's some economics involved in it. I don't think he really enjoys it, and I think, you know, I hate to think that he's doing that because he thinks it's the right thing for me. And, you know, I tell him all of the time not to do that, you know, do something you enjoy, and if you want to change, just change. The biggest, the most important thing in life I think, is to find a job that you like and that you enjoy and that you want to go to every day. Because there's thousands— well, there's probably millions of people who do a job that they don't like and they don't enjoy and they hate it every single day. And, you know, very fortunately, I've never been in that situation. Um, but I just— I would encourage everybody to find something that they want to do and, and that they enjoy. And, you know, don't don't be pulled down by, you know, what society expects or what your parents expect. I mean, I don't think parents should expect anything of their children other than for them to be happy and to enjoy what they're doing. And, you know, I think we can all look at our— we can all look at our kids and think, you know, will my— would my son survive on the trading floor? I don't think so. He's too nice, right? And so was I. You know, I wasn't ruthless enough, right? I, you know, you hear stories about people treading on people's heads and, you know, at least on their toes to get where they want to get to. I wasn't that person. You know, stereotypically, it gets associated with me every now and again, but nobody who knows me will tell you that, you know. And that includes everybody who worked in the world of banking at the time as well. Um, so yeah, you've got to find your niche, find your lane. And, you know, I think, you know, when I— like, I tell my son, I think, you know, a marketing or a sales role is— like, he's great with people, right? Great with people. And it always has been since he was 4 years old. You know, he's been— he's always— and that's where I think his lane is and, and the one that he should maybe, um, maybe explore a little bit more. But I think he still thinks he wants to work in a bank, and whatever I tell him is not gonna put him off It's like having a dad who's a famous football player though.

He feels like he's maybe in the shadow. But look, one thing I found really interesting there was like yours. I wonder if we could just explore a little bit quickly your social skills then, because I have to deal with the students a lot and our company is all very kind of data-driven to identify performance. But then actually, as you rightly said, even to this very day in all roles, roles, it's that ability to get on with people that's critically important as well. So when you think about it, was it that was hard-coded into your DNA as a kid and your upbringing, or did you learn some of those skills to be able to get on, like you said, to go up the social spectrum with people that you didn't grow up with? So where did that come from?

Yeah, I don't— it's a great question, right? And I don't think I've been asked in 20-odd, 30 years of, of doing after-dinner speaking and, and conferences. I, um, like, I, I always wanted more. And, you know, I, like, I wouldn't have— like, I'm not extrovert by, by any stretch of the imagination. And, you know, coming back from Singapore all those years ago and, and standing up in front of crowds and talking about my experiences would have absolutely scared me to death. Um, but I think I was always, um, you know, I, I, I, I, I'm not opinionated, right? I don't, um, you know, you could— I, I wouldn't have an opinion on anybody, right? I, I think I treat everybody at face value and always have, and I think that's a, um, you know, so I don't go come into any situation with a, with a preconceived idea of what's going to be. Um, you know, I think I'm a really good judge of character. I think I always have been. Um, and yeah, I don't know where that comes from, to be honest with you. Is it, uh, is it a working-class background and, and that desire to achieve and have a little bit more, and therefore, you know, you have to be accepting of everybody in order to achieve that little bit more? I don't, I don't know. Look, I think it's a great question, and I don't have the answer for you because I've never really thought about about it in, in that regard. But I think you get— like, if you get— and like, I hate using clichés, right? So, but if you give respect, you will receive respect. And I think, you know, certainly within the world of finance, if you're good at what you're doing and you're hard working, I think you are given that respect a little bit quicker maybe than some other industries where it's not so obvious of, of the disparity. But yeah, no, look, I think that's a great question, to be honest with you. I, I don't know, I can't give you the answer. I certainly can't give you an academic answer to it anyway.

Well, look, there's some— there was some things you, you highlighted there, like stress, for example. So kind of stress and resilience, because I think these are two huge topics that young people, particularly going to any high-pressure job, finance or not finance, they're gonna confront. And so maybe, given that a lot of them are not familiar with your full story, so what was the level of stress then? Like, what was the scenario in Singapore that led to the decisions that you made, and what were you feeling at that point?

Oh, look, the stress was, was off the chart. I mean, you know, people, people talk about PTSD after they've been to war. I'm sure I had PTSD. You know, it was, um, yeah, look, but it was— I, I, I suppose the easiest way to describe it, or to maybe frame it, is, you know, stress came with what I wanted to do, which was to succeed. So it's not that external forces were putting the pressure on me, it was all in— it was all inside, um, you know. So I'm actively I, you know, seeking jobs that are going to test me a little bit more, and, and that's going to impose stress. I mean, during the period that I was in Singapore, just to give the viewers an idea, you know, like, all the total sums, I mean, I lost £862 million over that period. I caused the collapse of a 233-year-old merchant bank. Um, you know, like, the position is just getting worse all of the time. My own position is bigger than the rest of the market. It. It's impossible to unwind, um, but you've still got everybody buying into the success story. So it becomes very Jekyll and Hyde, you know, depending on who you're in front of. So, you know, if you've got, you know, one of the board members arriving from London and they, you know, they're coming into Singapore and they want to look at the trading floor, it's all about the success. You get back to the office and you're looking at the statements to see how the position has blown up and how much money you've lost that day, and it's well, you know, it's, it's all about the stress and the worry and how the hell am I going to get out of this. So it was a complete contradiction throughout that period, but it was basically, you know, and the contradiction really, I suppose, existed based on what environment you were in. So, you know, board member coming from London on the trading floor, yeah, you're blasé and you're— everything's great and you're, you know, you're, you're knocking out volume here, there, and everywhere. And, and again, the trading floor was all buying into the success story as well, because every time they saw me trade in Singapore, um, I would trade in size and I would squeeze them out and they would lose money. So every time they saw me trade, they thought I was winning, whereas behind me I've got another position in Osaka which is going down the pan. Um, so when you look back on it, it's, um How, how I kept it going, I, I don't know. Um, you know, alcohol was definitely one, one way, um, for a period of time. And it's, uh, you know, it's a coping mechanism that, you know, your viewers are all quite young. It doesn't work, so don't bother getting involved in it. Um, so, you know, that there are better coping mechanisms. And, you know, I always implore people to ask for help and advice. I was surrounded by people that could have helped me, could have steered me in a different direction, and the story would have been very different. The outcome would have been very different. You know, I think you need to act early if you find yourself in a difficult position. It doesn't matter what that is, if it's your health, if it's your own finances, or something that's going on at work. The earlier you act, the better the outcome. If you, you know, you get into a situation where you hide a problem and it festers and it gets worse, you know, by the time you come to remedy it, sometimes it's insurmountable. You know, it's gone so, so far in the opposite direction that you, you know, you're not able to solve it. And that was definitely the case, um, in, in, in my situation. But I think just, you know, like when I was in Singapore, I was 25 when I went there. Um, yeah, very different environment to modern day, you know, 2026 banking, or 2026 anyway. You know, it was 1990s banking. It was all about making money, um, you know, ego and greed is good sort of type of, uh, type of philosophy. And at the age of 25, I saw asking for help was a sign of weakness. You know, if I turn around to somebody on the trading floor and I said, could you help me with this, they'd laugh at me, right? That would be the first response, and then they might ridicule me. You know, um, I don't know, you know, go and get me a cup of pity or something, I don't know, or what, whatever it was. It's, um, it, it was a very, very different environment. But, you know, I'd encourage everybody now to look at asking for help and advice as a sign of wanting to do things correctly. Um, you know, I did, I did an interview with somebody the other day and they were asking me about, you know, who my mentors were and stuff like that. Like, I didn't have one, um, at that time. And there was nobody really I looked up to, you know, because I, I was confident in my own ability, I suppose. Was I overconfident in it? Maybe at times, um, but, you know, I had ability. Unfortunately, most people don't remember that these days. They, they think about the loss and whatever else, and and, you know, I have to tell people that I didn't lick it off the ground to get there. You know, it was, you know, I was good at what I did for a period of time. I'm the first to admit that I messed up on a, on a grand scale. But, uh, you know, that's not the way that I'd planned it.

Yeah, it sounds like having a mentor then is, is really important because it gives you like a, an environment where you can feel comfortable. Because I guess a lot of young people I deal with who are going into these types of banks now, they're, they're still scared. Like, it sounds like almost like you were to a certain degree, in a way of what are people going to think, they're going to get rid of me. And so there's always this temptation to hide things that you're not doing right or something's gone wrong. And I know when I used to, when I worked on a trading floor, the thing I always had wanted the most, many of my juniors, day one, was like, if you make a mistake make, you must tell me straight away. And then that's always the red line of like honesty that makes everyone work better.

Yeah. And, and look, the, you know, the constant thing is that you've always got to do the right thing, right? And I think you, if you, if you look at the consequences of not doing the right thing and, and they're made obvious to you, um, you won't do it. Like, even for me, and I was talking, uh, I can't remember who I was talking to the other day, but it was about Oh yeah, no, I, I did a thing earlier this week with some students in Mexico about my, my story. And, um, you know, we're talking about surveillance and how surveillance has changed over the years. And that's a great career for somebody, surveillance, right? You know, it's, um, it's always changing, uh, and I think, you know, you don't need to be on the trading floor. There's lots of ancillary roles that are just as interesting and give you that capacity to be able to do something, um, something new every day. But You know, if I go back to my time back in Singapore and, you know, being on the trading floor in— sorry, I was there in 1992. I said 1995 earlier, but, you know, being there in 1992, if there'd been somebody strong and good around me, you know, looking at the controls and the systems and monitoring what I was doing, I wouldn't have done it because I wouldn't want to be embarrassed by them highlighting that I was doing something incorrectly. Um, so I think, you know, everybody knows what, what doing the right thing is. Um, anybody who tells you that it's pressure to perform, to perform, and all this sort of stuff that puts them into that situation, it's just lying. Um, you know, Jerome Kerviel still use that story today about 20 years after he lost all of the money at Société Générale. Like, you know what you're doing, as I did. I knew I shouldn't be doing it. Um, and, and I'm embarrassed to say that I continued. And, you know, for those reasons, I'm fully accountable and responsible for my actions, um, during that time. But it's still embarrassing. And, you know, nobody should— no, I don't think anybody wants to put themselves deliberately in an embarrassing situation. But, you know, you also need a management, or, or you need senior managers within the organization that you work for that are approachable. That will, you know, will talk to you on equal terms and will encourage you to show you their mistakes. And, you know, a very good friend of mine is a CIO of a big European bank these days. And, you know, he uses my story to say to people, you're going to make mistakes, right? Everybody makes mistakes. But what you can't do is you can't hide them. You know, come and tell me about them and I'll help you through them as much as I can. but you know, the one thing that you can't do is hide mistakes. So, you know, that transparency, that honesty, I think will always put people in good stead, and it will also make sure that you maintain your own moral and ethical fibre as well, that you're not, you know, that you're not putting any of those at risk because then, you know, do you do it again type of Yeah, I do think it's definitely, as you say, it's a two-way street.

And because I often feel like you're painted out to be like the villain here and there's a responsibility as well of— I know times back then were a lot different to what they're like today in like regs and compliance and all the rest of it. But I feel like, like you said, there's a— it's a two-way street. Management has got to want to actively encourage an environment where that can happen, that conversation. Yeah, but I was—

I, I agree with you when we, when we're looking at modern-day banking. Yeah, yeah, I was, I, I was never going to put my hand up and ask for help because fear of failure was too big for me, right? There was nothing that, that, there was nothing worse than failing because why? Because I was used to success.

Why did— why do you fear failure so much?

Because I want success, and everything is success motivated. And that was probably instilled at me, instilled in me at a young age, because, you know, I'm coming from a working-class background. Um, you know, my mother was quite academic, um, but she always wanted us to push ourselves at school, and I did. And, you know, you'd get the plaudits for that. I was always a year, year and a half ahead of everybody else when I was in junior school kind of, you know, pulled back more into the mainstream during, during senior school. But I went to a very good senior school that used to be a grammar school. Um, yeah, success was the thing. I always wanted to be successful. So I think if you build that up over the years and then you start in the world of business, and again you're still enjoying that success, and you're, you know, you're not— there's no barrier, or you perceive that there's no barrier to that success. Failure just gets less and less of an option, or more and more of an ogre when you, when you think of it. Um, yeah, look, success is still important to me today, so I, you know, I, I get a lot of success out of how the kids are doing and, um, you know, how they're getting on within their roles. It's not so much about, you know, but at the time it was very, very personal, and I had a very elevated opinion of what success You know, for me it was getting to the top of the organization and making all the big decisions. Um, but you know, again, going back to that book that I wrote, um, the, um, the psychologist kind of explained that, you know, some people get success from putting food on the table for their kids to eat. You know, so two very, very different views of how, how you succeed within, um, that particular area.

Maybe the final part then is, is kind of, it's very much connected, I guess, to what you just spoke about, which is resilience. Because a lot of the kind of interactions I have with companies now, and they give me feedback about their interns or their grads and stuff like that, and a lot of them have come through a pathway in their life, these young people, where they've just continually had success academically and they've gone to quite a structured environment, maybe a good school. Every support has been given to them, so they've just smashed it out the park as far as the world would see it, i.e., education. And then you get on the trading floor, and as you know, the market slaps you around the face a few times on day one, and you realize that I haven't got it worked— I can't work it all out, I'm not right all the time. Just the nature of and they're not able to cope with that particularly well. And so, having you had the experience that you had, going to prison, having cancer, things like that, like, how now in retrospect, what would be practical good advice to get people to build up those muscles of being a resilient individual in preparation for some of the careers that's ahead of them, do you think?

Anthony? Um, yeah, um, I, I get— again, it's a good, it's a good question. And, um, you know, I, I believe, um, you know, I think sometimes you have to reframe the way that you think about things, um, and, and I had to do a lot of that when I was in prison, you know, in, in order to survive, um, some of the time. So you, you you have to constantly adapt. But I do believe that we all have an innate strength, and I don't think that any of us really encounter anything that we can't cope with. But you have to be able to find it. You know, when I, when I arrived in Singapore, you know, you're sleeping on the floor, it's rough and uneven. There's two Triad gang members in the cell with you. You come from a very, you know, very white-collar crime Um, you know, there's a— the cell, 6 foot by 9 foot, is 100 degrees early in the morning. It's 130 degrees in the evening when the heat starts to rise. And it is just the most impossible environment. Um, and whilst I always felt reasonably safe with that environment, within that environment, the conditions are really, really tough. Um, you— but somehow you get through and, you know, you have to think, um, differently about, um, how you pass time, and you build up a degree of resilience over that sort of period. I think it's very difficult to teach resilience, right? It's, it's about doing all of the other things that we've already partially spoken about. If you're, you know, if you're transparent, if you're honest, if you're trying to do the right thing all of of the time, then, you know, I think some of that resilience will come to you. If you're doing the wrong thing and you're hiding things, you're always going to be at a panicked level. I think the more transparent you can be about things, um, and I think communication is just such a powerful tool, um, you know, like, as I said at the beginning, I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as a great communicator. Barings as an organization was an exceptionally poor communicator. You know, everybody was trapped in these silos trying to do their own bit of work. But, you know, for me, and that was probably the most— prison was probably the most difficult part. And when I arrived back in Singapore, I had the best part of 4 years to go, and it looked like that was the end of the world, right? Because I'm incarcerated already, so I've got no choice other than to do it. But one day is you know, it is so long because you've got nothing, right? You get one book a month, um, you're locked up for, uh, 23 hours a day you're locked up for, you know, those are the conditions. It's that sort of heat and you just, you know, it's never-ending and you kind of look for the sharpest corner in the room and you think, you know, it might be better to bang my head off of that and just knock myself out for a week or a month or whatever, uh, and go to the sickbay. So the thing that worked for me was communication, and it wasn't communicating with other prisons, you know, prisoners. Um, you know, somebody says, did I make any friends? I didn't go there to make friends, right? Nobody goes to prison— well, some people do. I'm sure career criminals go to prison to make friends with other career criminals, and, and maybe they plan what they're going to do afterwards. That, that wasn't the, the remit for me. Um, so I started a diary. So I used to write to myself every day in this diary. So, you know, those little sort of A5 sort of exercise books, you could buy one of those a month and there were 30-odd pages in it. So you could write to yourself. So I'd always be thinking about things that had happened, you know, how, um, the way that I reacted, the way that I would have preferred that I reacted. And you have to be really, you know, you really have to be self-critical and And you really have to pull back the veneer and be quite nasty to yourself, but you're only writing to yourself. And then look at the way that you would have preferred to react. And it went across everything, you know, both business, home, um, you know, family, every sort of relationship that you're looking at. It depends what it— what occurred to you, um, that day. But for me, getting it down on paper was a good way of unloading it and, and trying to deal with it. And, you know, unfortunately— well, fortunately or unfortunately, I was there for the best part of 4 years, so there was a, there was a lot of unloading and, and trying to work out how I would have preferred to react during that sort of period. I think what prison, you know, cancer and everything else that I've experienced, uh, teaches me is that I'm not really scared of anything anymore. Um, you know, and it's about, again, not, not with clichés, um, you know, you want to live life as best as you can. But, you know, I'm very centered around the people that are important for me. Um, I think when you're, you know, when you're in a business career and you're doing well, you know, it is quite transient. You know, people that you work with will come and go and they'll change. Um, but your friends hopefully stay there forever, um, and, and that's the most important part of it. So as much as, you know, again, I used to be quite good at going into work in the city and getting along, but it was always important that in the evening, or certainly at the weekends, I'd be back home. And, um, you know, I kept myself quite grounded in, in that way.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that last point. I think your, your mates that you grow up with are the ones that I've always felt like know you truly and got your back no matter what. And so whatever your problem, they're always people you can confide in. Sure. For sure. So look, Nick, thank you so much for sharing those insights. I'm sure everyone listening got a great deal out of that. I'm so pleased of your, your kind of honesty and also people to understand and all of those amazing qualities that you had that got you into that position. And then, you know, what happened happened, but then all the other things as well that you've kind of, you've done since and all the learnings to share from it. So thank you so much, Nick, for giving us your time.

No worries. Thank you.