Peak Performance by Emily Cook, Former Investment Banker & Neuroscience Coach

Hello Emily, and welcome to the show. And really excited about this conversation because of your quite unique background. Uh, I think loads of people be interested because you've worked in investment banking, private equity, you've managed to transition as well in different departments in that process, but now you're a neuroscience performance coach. And I think there's so much stuff, and we had a brief conversation before, that people can learn. So I think our overall conversation is probably going to be in two different sides. One, a little bit about your technical industry insights, and the next about performance, personal growth, wellbeing, and all that good stuff as well, and your learnings in that department. But perhaps we could kick things off. You could give us a brief summary of your background, and typically good to start from your student days, which is a lot of our audience.

Well, first of all, I'm really excited. So thank you so much for having me. So if I go back to Emily as a student, so when I think back to me, it kind of really starts with me at sixth form. So when I was about 17 and I, for me back then, my favourite subject was sociology. So it's really like the study of people and cultures. And when we were in one particular class, we were learning about family dynamics and how different parts of your family dynamics. So how many parents you have, do you have siblings, how that impacts you as a person. And my teacher at the time, who we had very good relationship, said— called me out and said that I was statistically less likely to succeed because I only had one parent. And that for me was a really poignant moment and where I think it really ignited that drive for me because I was thinking, but why, why, why should that matter? Why should that statistically impact my chances of success in the future? So that was what got me really fired up, um, to change that. And so that was where my love for performance really started, at least as far back as I can remember. And it's ultimately what drove me into finance. So I went into university, studied— studying banking and finance off of the back of that. Because of this, this drive to go and achieve big things. But being in an industry where it is a really steep learning curve, it's very competitive, so it really satisfied my, my desire to create this, this big and exciting life for myself, but one where I also, I could change things for me and my mom. So I went into investment banking at the start of my career in London at a Japanese investment bank, and there were so many high highs working in finance, which maybe the listeners can relate to, that the, the people were just so incredibly talented, some of the most intelligent people that I've ever met, but also working on incredible projects. I got to travel. You're well paid, you're, you're learning so much. So there were so many high highs about me working in finance, but at the same time, it comes with challenges that on the flip side of that, it can be very demanding, that it can be long hours, it can be stressful. You have client deadlines. And for me, eventually the costs began to outweigh the upsides. So I'd already transitioned from investment banking to private equity in Amsterdam, so this was a new challenge for me. Moved to a new city, new part of the industry, a lot of change at once, which was very exciting. But at the same time, I began to be working even harder, and that my— I was glued all hours of the day to my laptop, that I was sacrificing sleep and exercise and eating healthily so that I could really maximize time working, because that's what at the time I thought high performance was, that I should just work harder for longer to really achieve it. And it was really coming at a cost to my health, well-being, and everything else. So there was a really poignant trip for me where I was in Spain with 10 of my friends and we were on a boat trip for the day. They're all having fun, having drinks, listening to music, and I'm there trying to avoid waves coming onto my laptop so that I'm there typing away in Excel, finishing off a deadline. And that was really a wake-up call for me to think, Emily, is this what success looks like for you? Is this really what you want to be doing? And that's what led me to, to deciding to leave finance and going on this mission to understand how can you have both? How can you satisfy your ambitions and get this high performance but without burning yourself into the ground in the process, effectively, and sacrificing your health, your relationships. So that's where I went into figuring that out. And I'd already trained as a coach whilst I was in finance, um, due to a deep desire, just really wanting to help other people in a more structured way. And so then that transformed into me sticking with what I knew and wanting to help people like me who were in finance to achieve both elements of that. And really using, as you mentioned, neuroscience is a big part of what I do because one, I find it fascinating, um, learning about your brain and how it all works, but also because it can be so important to really understand how your brain works because it hugely impacts how we think, feel, and perform. And I was mind-blown when I learned the things that I did about how this would— it would have improved my time in finance. And the tools that were available that hadn't made it trickled its way down to people like the common people like me. And so that's why now I use that at the forefront of what I do and have a team of neuroscientists that I work with to really maximize that, to translate these strategies into very digestible things that people can slot into their, their day-to-day. So now I'm, as you mentioned, performance neuroscience coach, largely working with investment firms to help them achieve high performance but without the huge cost to their people like burnout.

Yeah, I can't wait to dive into some of the, the performance-related questions because you're probably having daily conversations with high-performing people, and I guess everyone wants to know, like, what is the secret sauce? But we'll, we'll get to that in due course. But perhaps then, um, on that journey, because I know that, you know, people would think when you say things like private equity, investment banking, they're like, okay, so this is like the Holy Grail of what a lot of students are shooting for. But I know in your situation, you didn't start in, let's say, transformative deals, for example, but more in a different part of the bank. So could you tell me a little bit more about that and how you managed to carve out that transition?

Mm. Yeah, so I started my career in operations. So for anyone that's not familiar with it, it's really, as it was described to me, it was like the glue of the bank. So it's a lot of support functions to really support those in front office roles to be able to do what they do. And for me, when I was at university picking what I wanted to do, it felt like an impossible task. There were so many parts of finance, there were so many different roles, and how would I know which one was the best fit for me? So when I was choosing, that was the one that I had heard about and it sounded really interesting. So I, I went there and I did a year in industry, so whilst I was still studying, and then went back to the same company as a graduate and did a year in operations then too. But during that time, once I had got my foot in the door and I had started chatting to different people, getting exposure to different teams, I really had this desire and thought that I wanted to be somewhere else. That as I had learned more about how it all worked, I thought that was going to be a better fit for me. But it wasn't an easy move. So, as, as is perhaps expected, that HR weren't overjoyed with the idea of that because they had hired me for a particular role, a particular department. They'd invested in me, so the idea of me then moving to a different one wasn't met with a huge amount of joy for that. So how I made it happen, and what was really foundational for me, was the network that I built during those 2 years, and it's particularly with senior stakeholders. So even though, um, HR were trying to block the move, I had made, uh, connections all over the bank, but there was someone in investment banking in particular who I had met just casually in the canteen. We would always just have casual chitchat, and when I realized I wanted to move into investment banking, I just asked them a few questions about their, their role, if they had any advice for me. And he did. He helped me sculpt my CV, and he introduced me to someone within investment banking who he thought it would be good for me to chat to. and then they passed me on to someone who was specifically hiring. So, I had a conversation with the executive director, very swiftly after spoke with the head of the team, and within a few days, the move was a done deal. So, they had then, having that senior sponsorship and saying, well, we want her in our team, so whatever needs to happen, we, we want to make it happen. So, that was for me, that it wasn't straightforward, but having that, that network and particularly senior sponsorship made it, made it possible.

Can I, can I just ask, because that makes a lot of sense in terms of networking, but I guess, can we break down almost networking a little bit? And how do you actually, A, find the right people to speak to, B, having even confidence to do that in the first place, and then I guess, C, have it to be an authentic, quality conversation that someone then, like you said, someone took a vested interest in helping you curate your CV, you know, pitch yourself, refine it to then propose it to the business. Like, that's not an easy thing. So for a young person listening, they might go, that makes sense, but I've never really cultivated those types of relationships because I only normally do it with peers, never really seniors and things like that. So any advice you could give around that?

Totally. It's really hard. And if you had asked me at the time, I probably wouldn't have called it networking. It's only in— go, as you get a bit older that that's what people call it. But for me, I— there were things that I did that I just really immersed myself in the business ever since I joined, even in my year in industry during my studies. And how I did that was joining the networks and the communities that were available. So I was part of the Women's Gender Balance Network, I went to Public Speaking Society, I would chat to people in the canteen. In the summer we had every Thursday drinks on the roof terrace that I would go to and start up conversations. But those communities in particular, so joining the networks and the likes of a public speaking society, it really helped because it would be— it was people across levels of seniority, across the business, that you are there with a shared goal, a shared purpose, a shared interest. So it makes it easier. You don't have to just start up conversation from scratch. So that is a huge thing that I would recommend for people to do if it doesn't— networking sounds like this elusive term that you don't know where to start, getting involved with that as much as possible. And I think over time realizing that starting with not necessarily talking about work things— so some of the senior sponsors that, from the, that I had on the sales and trading side as well, they were people that I met in the sweet shop. So we had sweet, a sweet shop on, on site in our offices, and we would coincidentally at around the same times on certain days of the week, we would bump into each other and we would be talking about Really menial things, but it meant that we then had that relationship, and that it wasn't— we didn't broach professional and work-related topics until later on, but we'd really connected more as humans first. So, I think that that is also— it's really scary at the start when you have these really senior managing directors, heads of teams, can be really daunting, but also remembering that they are only human, and if you can find common interests, whether that's through the network societies, or something else, then that's a great place to start.

Yeah, it's so, so interesting. I remember my first week of working my entire career. I used to have, um, this old-school veteran who was probably in his late 60s, and he used to take me off for an hour just for a chat. He always used to— at the time, there was a very famous CEO called Bob Diamond. He was like the Barclays CEO back in the day. And I remember he just said to me, Even Bob Diamond had a first day. So the person you think is so amazing had the first day when they didn't know where the canteen was or where the toilets were. And, you know, so if you can kind of get your mindset right, it's like, yeah, that you are looking at a finished article, but actually everyone's had a journey and then it doesn't seem so intimidating, I guess. But so you, you moved on then and you, you joined the investment banking team and there was, there's a role that I know that you did. Which is in structured finance. But that's something which I think only the very, like, informed students will probably know what that is. And obviously my ambition is to try and educate and make some of these roles a bit more transparent and demystify them to a certain degree. So what is structured finance?

Yes, and I would start by saying that I absolutely lucked out, that I— when I joined, as I mentioned, that it was— I, I just got connected and kind of happened to fall into structured finance. But while I was there over the course of those few years, I felt like I was in one of the most interesting teams within the bank. So, I'll start by, by saying that, that I think it's an amazing place to work and to start your career. And so, if I can really simplify what it is, to put it in terms without too much finance jargon in there, we were effectively lending, giving loans to businesses, for more complex situations. So, it wouldn't be a case that a business could go to a high street bank and ask for a loan there. We were really created more bespoke structured solutions, depending on what they did and what their objectives were. And that level of complexity could have come from a few different ways, but it was kind of like we were operating as a credit fund within a bank. So we had our own balance sheet where we could make these debt investments, which would range from somewhere 20 million, say, up to 300 million investments that we would give to these businesses. And they could be related for different purposes. So it could be that a business was looking to acquire a minority stake in another company. That comes with additional complexity because if you're acquiring a minority stake, you don't have the controlling rights, which can make it more difficult for a lender to get comfortable with. But those kind of complexities that we could balance the risk level with what we were comfortable with was great because it means that you can charge more for it. So it could be that complexity came from what the purpose was, like in that case. It can also be that depending what the loan is backed by, so what we got in, in exchange. So typically it was secured by illiquid assets. So illiquid being that things that aren't easily exchangeable for cash or easily traded. So like a portfolio of receivables, so money that the company was owed that we could then use as security. And maybe a final point to, to say on that is that typically we were working at more junior or subordinated levels in the, in the capital structure. So what I mean by that is that when we are lending, it has additional risks because we are lower down the pecking order before we get repaid. So we might not be lending at the operating company level itself, we might be one level removed. So these were some of the, the complexities that we could have been working with. But for me, I loved that because it meant that the learning curve was really steep. It meant that I was working on such a variety of industries, from— we did a lot in infrastructure and renewables, but also with finance companies when we were looking at these portfolios of receivables. So it was really varied. Um, but it was that the fact that everything was bespoke and tailored I thought was really, really interesting. So it's a super cool place to be.

My question was going to be, so what kind of characteristics or skills— so now people know a bit more informed about what it does as a part of the bank, as a role. But let's say I'm an econ student, or I'm a geography student, I'm a history student, like, what are the underlying skills for success in doing what you described, would you say?

Yeah, so when I first met with that executive director and they were explaining to me what the role was, because similarly I hadn't heard much about it before, and they explained it to me as it's kind of like a combination of, if you think about sales and trading, a salesperson and a structuring person. So if you think about the profile for someone who might be good for sales, that they will be good with clients, they might be outgoing But a structure that they might be quite analytical, that they might be good at solving problems, really being able to think creatively about how we might put something together. I think that those— someone who could do those things would be a great fit. But people that love learning in general, because it isn't as in some other teams where it might be that you— it's a lot of copy and paste of doing the same type of transactions, that it's very varied. So you have to really enjoy that variety, that you will work across industries, that each deal will be different. So I think they're some of the, the key fundamentals that hopefully helps students figure out if it might potentially be interesting for them.

No, that's a, it's a great explanation. Thank you. And my final kind of question on this part is about— you then transitioned and went into private equity, and I think a lot of students have this idea of their kind of just trodden path of, I'm going to go and work in IBD for like 2 or 3 years, transition to the buy side. But I guess part of my job is to give them some idea about a level of expectation about, yes, there are great potentially financial rewards that could come through some of these, um, this career progression. However, you know, with every extra dollar made, there's probably an extra dollar given in terms of effort and sacrifice and things like that. I'm not here to try and like, you know, downplay this as a pathway for young people, but I just want to manage expectations of what it takes and what it's like in reality. So I just wondered, having you've lived this, what in self-reflection now do you kind of surmise out of that experience?

So I think it depends what part of private equity that you want to go into, but if you are going— if you want to go into a deal team specifically like I did, to set the expectations that it is going to be challenging, you are going to work hard, and that typically it is going to be long hours, and you might have tight timelines where you have to cancel plans because you need to get something done. So it can— that is the, the reality of it. And that, like, as you mentioned though, that it can come with the upsides, so that you will be able to make a great salary very young, whether you're in investment banking or private equity, that you will be paid very well, that you likely will be able to travel and work on really cool projects, you will be surrounded by incredibly intelligent people. But it will likely come at a cost of some other areas of your life unless you can have the right strategies in place to try and balance that a little bit better. But there will be inevitably points where you are in a sprint mode, you have a live deal, and you will have to maybe cancel some of your other social plans, those kind of things, to make it work. So I think that the reality is that it can be a high-stress, high-pressure environment where some people thrive and some people love that. I did to some extent, but it's recognizing that it's got to— whether that trade-off is, is worth it for you.

Okay, cool. Thank you. And let's now pivot the conversation because I want to give good time to kind of dip into your expertise, um, on performance management, improvement, personal growth. Neuroscience and these, these things. So perhaps we could start with, is that, you know, a lot of people talk about peak performance. I wondered, what is your definition of what peak performance is, given that you talk to people about this all the time? Is there a singular narrative, or is there lots of different people's versions? I don't know. So it'd be good to get your take. And then how can young professionals start kind of thinking about this early in their career? Because What you were describing sounds like you kind of, you know, it's like you're at the coalface early in your career doing a lot of hard work and graft. Can you even, do you have the bandwidth to think about peak performance and self-management and things like that? So yeah, the definition of peak performance and then yeah, advice for young professionals would be great.

So first off with how I would define it, and as you maybe will gather from my earlier comments that my definition of that has changed a huge amount since my time in finance versus now. So now I really regard it as sustained high performance, and the sustained or sustainable part is really important because high performance or peak performance, if you are doing it for one project, one day, one week, how can you sustain that for longer periods of time so that it is sustained for months, years, lots of different projects? That is where I think that it really comes in to be classified as high performance. So what that will realistically look like is where you are able to consistently deliver your best work, where you are able to solve problems creatively, be innovative. You are able to really drive your best work but without the sacrifices that I was mentioning, without the chronic stress, without burning yourself out in the process. And that's how I, I would think about it. And when I speak to companies and ask them So what it looks like for them, to your point that there are, there are lots of different definitions, and each company, each team might consider it differently. So for anyone that is going or looking to go into finance, it can be worthwhile to ask your business or your manager what it means to them so that you are clear on those expectations. But so some of the common answers that I hear speaking with, with businesses is that it would be about consistent improvement. And driving excellent outcomes. And some of the key parts that I consistently hear from businesses that they want more from their people to be able to achieve that is a lot of asking people to, to be accountable for their own development, to really drive projects forward in their realm of what is their role, but also outside of it. And so I think when I look at the people that I work with, and that's across people that are at the junior levels up to partners, and what are those consistent themes of those that are the most high-performing, that there are a few different core elements that students can start to think about. So one of them is that they are action takers. If we have a session and we've identified something that they need to go and work on, by the next session they have done it. It's number one. So they are— they're not just thinking about things, they're taking action. They're also all lifelong learners. So that they're always curious, they're always looking to learn more, whether that's about themselves, how they can be better. So even partners will be saying in our sessions, okay, but how can I be better? What am I missing? And I think that recognizing that is really important to get that continuous improvement. They also are very coachable, so that they are open to feedback, that in fact that they, they want the feedback, recognizing that that helps us to to really grow. And finally, that they are not only managing their time, but they're also managing their energy and their focus, recognizing that if they are completely exhausted, if they are distracted all the time, that they are not going to be able to focus on their high-value work. So there are some of the things that I think as a, a student or someone that's a, a young professional working in this, to start to think about how you can embody those traits. And as you mentioned, it can be difficult because when you have your head down and you're executing on this task in front of you, you might not have the mental bandwidth to consider how could I be doing this better. But it's important to try and carve out that time where you can, and whether that's after your project or your deal has finished, then you have the reflective process to look back as like, okay, what went well there, what could I be doing better? Because A lot of people don't have the headspace and won't be doing it. So if you do, you are really putting yourself ahead and setting yourself up for even greater performance going forwards.

Is it, is there any difference between, uh, using, let's say, a peer, like a buddy system, as opposed to self-reflection when you're, when you're trying to carve out that time as you described? Is it healthy to have a combination of both? I just wondered, like, if you don't have much time, you know, what, what's the easiest and most efficient way of trying to self-reflect to answer some of these questions?

Yeah, so I'll give you a couple of options, and people maybe resonate with one of the two. The one that you could take the time to write things down, and this doesn't need to take very long. It could be at the end of the project or at the end of the day. You think, okay, what did I do well today? What could I done better today? Just spending a few minutes thinking about it. For those people who maybe like to collect their thoughts on their own, individual thinkers, that could be really helpful. But if you can do it with someone else, then you get the added bonus of the accountability. So if you— if it is someone where you feel you can be ruthlessly honest and that you're not going to hold back on how you've maybe performed, then that can also be beneficial because they can prompt you to delve deeper. If you say, oh well, I don't think I delivered on this because of X, X, Y, and Z. They were like, okay, but, but why do you think that was? Why did that get in your way? What needs to be different? So yeah, both approaches could be really effective, um, but finding what works best for people makes sense.

All right, the next sort of, I guess, word that you hear associated quite a lot in, in finance is productivity, and I'd be interested to get your take on, uh, just common mistakes maybe that people might make with this, because In my own experience, it tends to be when people are coming out and transitioning from early careers to mid and they start managing and then to leadership and your role changes quite dramatically in terms of what you are actually doing between doing the job to then managing other people doing the job. And a lot of people can struggle with, with that to a certain respect. So I just wondered, what are some common mistakes that people make that there could be easy remedies to, or at least to start thinking about or taking action on when it comes to productivity?

Yeah, I think with productivity that the common traps are mistaking hours put in for output that you will get out, and mistaking busyness with productivity. And I, I've been there too, so it's very— I can completely empathize that when you are working really long days you can feel like you're doing the most that you can. If you— when you're doing emails, that, that can feel really productive, but that might mean that you haven't been doing your actual high-value work, whatever that looks like for you. For some people, that might be more analytical. For some people, especially as you get more senior, that might be more strategic. And I think being mindful of that, that not to conflate the two, that just because you're, you're busy doesn't mean that you are productive. And some, some common ways around that that can work really well is— so this is an analogy that's really top of mind for me at the moment because this year I've got back into running. So running for me has never been my forte, but this year it is, I've decided. So, and when you are using this as an example for output, that when I'm, when I'm training, when you're training for a race or you're doing running, that you spend very little of your time actually doing max effort speed, that you spend the vast majority of your time really training that base. So you're running a bit slower, but in the long run, by having that strong base, it allows you to work better, to run faster and run for longer. And it's very transferable because in thinking that we have to consistently be working at maximum effort, and that's what it is to be productive, that it can mean that we end up being tired because we are working longer hours. We're then being inefficient, which then means that tasks are taking us longer, and it's this cycle. So recognizing that being productive doesn't mean that you have to be giving maximum effort all of the time, and actually you need to be taking your foot off the gas sometimes to be able to show up as your best self, for your own individual contribution, but especially when you're managing people too, because we see that sleep-deprived leaders or exhausted leaders are less inspiring, so that it's harder for them to motivate their teams around them. And that, that's a big challenge. So I think there's some of the common mistakes that I see with productivity, that it's not about working harder for longer, it's about how can you work more efficiently, and what are the strategies that I can do to manage not only my time but also my energy and my focus?

Such a good— the running is such a good analogy, actually. Um, Rabbit and the Hare comes to mind because I was reading that to my daughter. But, um, so we talked about peak performance, productivity. The other big topic, I guess, in high finance is stress. So I wondered what your insights were in terms of actual practical strategies for dealing with stress? Because it, you know, it's a pretty much inherent part of a lot of finance roles.

Yeah, and I start by saying that stress itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, that a little bit of stress is actually positive for performance because it makes us focus and we get that heightened sense of that. So a little bit of stress isn't bad. It's more when we are getting to maladaptive or chronic stress. So when it's becoming constant and it's meaning that our— we're not functioning in the way that we typically would. So when we, we get stressed, we might get that, um, the stress chemicals being in our body, which helps us to focus, helps us to be more alert. But it's how quickly we come back down from that. And when we're chronically stressed is when we've stayed in that heightened stress for a really long period of time that even now when there isn't a stressful trigger going on, that we can still be in that heightened fight or flight mode. And that's where it can really impair our decision-making, our clarity of thought, our emotional regulation, where you might be more irritable than usual, you might be more emotional than usual when we are in that heightened state for too long. And unfortunately, I think this, this is very, very common because when you are so in what you're doing that you don't always realize how stressed you are until you come out the other side of it. So some really practical things that people can do, and I will focus on ones that are easy to slot into your day-to-day, because the ones that I, I work on with people, I know that everyone is super busy, they don't have 5 hours to go and do this protocol. So if I start with ones that are quick and easy to slot into your day So I am a huge advocate for breathwork, and breathwork can get a tough rep because some people might think it's woo-woo or fluffy, but actually it's deeply rooted in science, and it's one of the quickest ways that you can activate your parasympathetic part of your nervous system, so your rest and digest system. And you can do it in as little as a couple of minutes. So even if people are incredibly busy, everyone can find 2 minutes in their day. And so what that can look like and how other people use this that I work with is that some people will build this into their, their morning routine. So some people will do it with their morning cup of coffee. Some people will set calendar reminders so that they have one in the morning session and one in the afternoon, or when a meeting finishes early, or when they're washing their hands, walking in between meeting rooms, those small moments on your commute. So if you're super busy, you can do it at the same time as something else. And specifically with this breathwork, long exhale breathing is where you're really activating your parasympathetic nervous system to very quickly and effectively bring down that sense of stress.

Yeah, can I, can I just ask on that, on the science part— sorry to interrupt— but on the science part, is there a— do you need to do this consistently every single day, once a week? At what point is the tipping point where actually there's a notable difference, or is it always instantaneous? You get the result each time you do it.

You will get an instant benefit from doing breathwork because you're activating that parasympathetic nervous system. And when I do this in workshops, for example, that people are surprised because we only do it for— and they're only for 1 minute. So imagine what that looks like if you can carve out 5 minutes in your day to do that. And I would say that of course if you have a more regular practice, then you are going to be spending more time in that calm, relaxed state, which has additional benefits, rather than just using it when you're already feeling incredibly stressed to bring you back down. So, to the extent that people can do it consistently, absolutely, that would be great. So, if you can— an easy one to remember is breathing in for 4 seconds and breathing out for 8 seconds. So, it's important that you're exhaling for a longer period than you're inhaling, because that's when you're activating this parasympathetic nervous system. And just doing that for, say, 5 rounds of breath, 5 rounds of breath, counting in for 4, out for 8. And noticing how you feel afterwards. And again, if you can do that a few times a day, amazing.

Then I was just going to say, it's so interesting because that count sequence you described— so every now and again we have an elocution coach come into our office because a big job of what we do is we train large groups of people in person or online. So there might be 100 people in a room and obviously a lot of the trainers can get nervous. So a lot of the elocution coaches come from drama school, and it's exactly the same technique that they were kind of demonstrating in order to pre-performance as well. So I guess that could translate to if someone was doing an interview for a job or an assessment centre, these sorts of things.

100%. Whether any— before anything where you need to perform and that it will benefit you to be more calm. Absolutely. So whether that's before a presentation, before an interview, and yeah, as you mentioned, that it is so— it is starting to be more widely talked about. The difficult part is actually putting it in, into practice. So if you can be that person that does that, you'll see big benefits. So if you can carve up 2 minutes here and there, that would be great. If you can find 10 minutes in your day, um, another thing that you can do, so, is non-sleep deep rest, non-sleep deep rest. And this is effectively where you're getting into a sleep-like state, but you're awake. And the research on this is really compelling, and to show that it can really give us this mental reset, and it can help with not only your stress but your focus too. And how you can do this— so there are guided ones online which are free, so very easy to go and access. So Andrew Huberman, for example, he has some on YouTube that you can go and use. He has a, a 10-minute one and a 20-minute one And effectively, it will guide you through a little bit of breathwork. It's a bit of body scan meditation. I'm really getting you into that deep, deep relaxed state. So if you can find 2 minutes in your day, breathwork. If you can do a little bit longer, try out the Non-Sleep Deep Rest. But those are just a couple of strategies to give people a sense. But when you are in that heightened sense of stress, whether you have a deadline, you have some big things coming up, Also being sure to take care of the fundamentals of, of brain health. So they're not, they're not the sexy bits— the, the consistency of sleeping well, eating well, getting your movement in— but we know that they are so hugely important for our brain function, but also for how, how we feel, um, and reducing stress. So yeah, you can have these strategies, but also if you do have something big going on. And I know it can feel counterproductive when you have something big, you feel like you should sacrifice the sleep to get more done. But getting in, in between those 7 to 9 hours, however much you— your body needs, can really, really help with that emotional regulation and reduction of stress too.

Given your, your expertise, I just wondered what's your take on people wearing, um, devices in order to help track some of these things? Because Sometimes I find that they're really useful, quite motivating, certainly to get you moving and things like that. But at the same time, I, I can also see some negatives that come out of behaviors from just being always looking at your data set and kind of making these preconceived judgments on, on your data that then defines how you feel. I wondered what your take was as a neuroscientist.

Well, so I have a few different devices. So I, I per— for myself, I enjoy them. I have an Oura Ring, I have a Garmin for my running, and I have an EEG headset which tracks my brainwaves so I can see my focus, my cognitive stress. That is extreme. People do not need to go to that level of data. But what I would say is that there was actually a really interesting study done on this to see how using wearables impacted people, and there were different groups. Different archetypes of people. There was a portion of people that it actually made them more stressed, because if they were already worried about their sleep or how they felt, and then the data confirmed that, it could actually make you feel worse. But there were people that using it, it meant that they actually were more aware, that they took action, and it enhanced their, their performance. So there are— it's definitely not a one-size-fits-all, and it's not for everyone. So people, it could be something that you try and follow your gut instinct of whether or not this is going to serve you or actually make you feel worse. Um, but what it can be helpful for is just bringing awareness. So when I use this, when I work with people using their wearable data, it can allow us just to spark up conversations that maybe they hadn't otherwise considered. Like maybe they don't know how much they were sleeping. Maybe they didn't realize that On Oura, for example, you can see how much restorative time you are getting. So you're in that relaxed state— how much of your day do you spend there? Just getting people to really be more mindful of how much movement they're getting, how many hours a day they're sat at their desk— that bit I think can be helpful, but not necessarily for, for everyone. And taking it with a pinch of salt. At the moment, these are the best technology that we have for tracking these things, but they're, they're not 100% 100% accurate, that there are still limitations to them. So going with how you, you feel, if it doesn't resonate with you, then, um, taking that instead.

Okay, cool. And then my final question is something I've heard you talk about a lot. So interested to, to understand this, which is flow state. And perhaps some may, a lot may not have heard of that term, just full stop. So perhaps we could start with that. That, but then, yeah, explore the flow state concept a bit more.

Yeah, absolutely. So maybe I could ask you a question to help people understand what flow state is. So if I asked you, when was the last time that you were fully immersed in what you were doing, so much so that you were so in the task, so in the zone, that everything else kind of melted away, that maybe you were actually doing it for 2 hours but it felt like 2 minutes. Do you know what that activity was for you?

Uh, probably editing a podcast. And the reason why is because you have, um, you kind of need to concentrate and time just seems to run away. Like, I'll do it typically in the evening, so when the kids have gone to bed, and I'll say to my wife, she'll go, how long do you need? And I'll say, 20 minutes. And she goes, so that means 90 minutes then. Because— and you get so into it and you're moving things around, focusing, zooming in. And then I just— yeah, that, that's when I go, oh my God, 2 hours has just gone, I'm gonna get killed.

Yeah, but that's very interesting because that— it's like a creative task. So very commonly when I ask this to people, I will often hear something creative. So like you say there, the podcast editing, or if people draw paint, if they dance, play an instrument, or with sports. So a lot of people will say running, cycling, some kind of movement. Very little of the time do I hear people say something related to work, and that, that's the challenge, because a lot of the time that people don't necessarily know what flow state is, but they more experience it more sporadically as well. So, not knowing how to tap into it on demand, and the way that modern work is set up, that often actually it's very uncondusive to flow. So, being that state, as I mentioned, that you are deeply focused on what you're doing, where time just absolutely flies by, and generally you feel amazing whilst you're doing it. And whilst you're in this state, we, we understand from the research that performance is significantly amplified. And it's across different parts of performance that are incredibly helpful for people in high-pressure, fast-paced roles, the likes of finance, because it's shown to improve your productivity. So there was a 10-year study by McKinsey which showed that executives in flow state were 5 times more productive. 5 times. So if you worked in flow state for an hour and you can get 5 hours worth of work done that's pretty substantial. Equally with speed of learning. So, there was a study that found that the participants learn a new skill twice as fast. So, for everyone who's learning in all different types of role, that, that can be really beneficial. Also, creative problem solving and creativity. So, Stephen Kotler, who I train with, who's a leading thinker on decoding the neurobiology of flow state, so what's happening in our brain and body, he found that it could be— the creativity uplift could be as much as 400 to 700%. But even if you take more conservative numbers of that, when you look at different studies, that they suggest that more than 40%. Whichever data point you take, they are very meaningful uplifts in performance. And I think what gets me most excited about this is that it— you do see this uplift in performance for those areas, but also improvements in decision-making, motivation, but also that at the same time we see improvements in wellbeing. So because it is that euphoric state that we're typically in, we see from psychologists found that those with the most high flow lifestyles have the highest life satisfaction. But also they found that when you're in flow state, your stress is reduced and it can be shown to reduce burnout symptoms. So the, the huge impact that it can have across performance and well-being is enormous. And that's why I think it can be such a powerful tool for people to start to understand for themselves and start using more. Maybe I can— we can go into that a little bit of how they can start doing it more, because once you know it and start using it, that this can transform the way that you, you feel and perform.

Okay, uh, sold. I want flow state. So how do I get it?

Okay, so I think maybe the most valuable thing that I can share here is that being in flow state, it's not like a light switch where it's on or off. It's more like a dimmer switch because it's a 4-stage cycle. And this is really important, so if anyone's been listening to this episode and multitasking and half listening, this is important. So I'd encourage you to give this bit your full attention. So the first stage of flow is called the struggle phase, and the really sad truth here is that the vast majority of people are not making it out of that first phase because they are so distracted that they are not persisting with their focus for long enough to actually reap the benefits to get through to flow state. So if I bring this to life by talking what a typical day might look like, and I'll ask you at the end where you think maybe you get stuck with this or not, maybe Maybe you're, maybe you're nailing it. So the first one, so if you sit down today, this morning, and you have a long to-do list to do, you're ready to go and tackle your most high priority task, you start, but after about 10 to 15 minutes, you start to feel that urge to do something else. And before you know it, you've picked up your phone, you've checked your emails, you're halfway through another task, you've walked to the coffee station. And you have essentially distracted and interrupted yourself. And it's not— it's natural for that to happen because when we are starting to focus, our body is being pumped with these stress chemicals to help us to focus, which is normal, but it doesn't feel particularly great, which is why we have that urge to do something else instead and get that dopamine from our phone or somewhere else. But if you can persist then we can go towards the second phase. And the second phase is called release. And the important thing here is that you need to step away from the task and take a bit of a breather, breather momentarily. So if you have been trying to solve this problem, you've had your head in this financial model for a really long time and you're really struggling to get through it, it's taking a little breather. And here, thinking simple and soothing activities. So going back to what we were talking about earlier, where we are looking to activate that parasympathetic, our rest and digest system, because flow uniquely is where our two systems are in balance, where we have our rest and digest and fight or flight. So we are looking to bring a sense of calm. So this is where you can use this long exhale breathing, could be a great thing to do. It could be that you walk to the coffee station, the water station, just to, to get some steps in. There are certain types of music, like calming music, that can be really helpful here. Push-ups can be shown to be one for people. So if you see people doing push-ups in the office, um, but whatever it is, is having a simple and ideally soothing activity that momentarily takes your mind away from it, because we're swapping our conscious processing for our subconscious processing. So you may have noticed this when if you have a shower or you go for a walk and this problem that you've been solving to— trying to solve just suddenly appears. So that's what we're looking to do here. So knowing what those activities are for you, then we can go through to the third stage, which is flow. So this is where we want to get to. This is where the magic happens, where ideas just come together seamlessly, where everything feels a bit more effortless, we feel amazing. But here the important part is not to overexert yourself. Because when we are here, there are various things going on in our brains that give us this uplift in performance, some of which include that we are getting a cocktail of neurochemicals, neurotransmitters in our brains being released, which are feel-good, which are performance-enhancing. But our, our brain is working hard, so we want to stay there but not for too long so that we overexert ourselves and leave feeling completely frazzled. So if you think about this in terms of timings for this, that across this whole cycle, having about 90 to 120 minutes in mind. And the reason for that being that we have— people may commonly more known about sleep cycles that we have at night, but we also have what we call ultradian rhythms, which are our natural body rhythms during the daytime. And we have them for— we have natural peaks and troughs in productivity and alertness. Which are typically 90 to 120 minutes long. So working with those in mind can be really beneficial. And if people are struggling to find 90 to 120 minutes in their days, which some people will, start with 60 minutes for trying to get through this cycle. Um, and if you can't book it in for this week or next week, booking in for 2 weeks' time, really trying to carve out the time so you can make the most of this flow phase. Then the final phase is recovery. So as I mentioned, you've got this huge benefit, you've been 5 times as productive, you've been much more creative, and now the importance is to recover. And this is a bit that— a common, uh, error or challenge that I see with people as well is that a lot of people get stuck at the struggle phase or at the recovery phase because they don't take breaks, they don't take times to have that mental reset. And whether that's a 10-minute walk around the office, whether that is if there's some nature near the office, nearby the office that you can briefly go to. If you can go to the gym, great. If you are someone who loves ice baths and saunas and you can do that in the evenings, then also great. But whatever it is, getting some form of recovery in there because you, to be able to go through this cycle again, it is really important to our point earlier about always being at maximum effort that you wouldn't do with running. Similarly here, that having that recovery piece is so important because recovery is not a reward for the work, it is part of the process. So really bearing that in mind. So as I explained that cycle, if I asked you, what do you think, that you have an idea of maybe where you get stuck, or do you find that you fly through this cycle quite effortlessly?

I think probably the, um, the length of time aspect, the 90 minutes to 120, is probably something I wasn't aware of. So I used to think it was kind of somewhat— you can dip in and out and it's just there, and you can kind of be short or long. But actually knowing the parameters is definitely enlightening. Um, I definitely think it's the first stage which I'd probably struggle with the most, which is— I'm a sucker, I've got it right here, like Post-it note. I'm still rocking the Post-it notes. Even though we're living in an AI digital age. And there's something cathartic I find about just scratching out something in physical pen. But it's almost like I have this list, and definitely as someone now more experienced, I'm, you know, I'm definitely better at prioritization and things like that. But I still have that thing from my younger days when it was very regimented, trying to hit, tick off tasks. Um, the second phase, I find my cat is super— when I'm working from home, I'll always go to my cat, and my cat is always sleeping, and she's kind of just curled up, just chilling. And you go over and have— you stroke the cat, you're like, oh yeah, just feels so much better. Like, that's just a good way to just kind of almost move you along, and then you feel like you can go again, um, and move into, yeah, more of a concentrated period. Animals are quite good for that.

Yeah. So there we have the strategy for people listening to this. Everyone go get themselves a cat.

No, but yeah, it was super, super interesting actually. Um, one question I did have was that when I was young, I used to play a lot of competitive sport and I can say without doubt, almost every single training session, never mind match. I would be in a flow state, like probably down to, you know, if you calculated, I would've played for tens of thousands of hours of training. And so it felt very, you know, you weren't really thinking about what you were doing. So I just wondered, why is it with sport, or I've answered my own question there, is 'cause of repetition that it felt like if I was to go and play basketball tomorrow, I feel like I can just go straight into flow state.

It.

Whereas if I go into the office tomorrow, I might want to achieve flow state but might not never get into that state.

Yeah.

So how, how do they contrast like that? And why is one feel so easy but one not so easy?

It's such a good point. And so according to the science, there are now over 20— more than 20 known flow triggers. So things that trigger you to get into flow. And sports can be littered with them. So if I give you a few examples, so I have it a lot with boxing. So I go to boxing classes, and that for me is a high flow activity, um, and it's because— if I give you some of the triggers as to why that can be. So one of them is like deep embodiment. So you are, you are connected with yourself and your body, you are there, you are present. And typically when we are playing sports, there's nothing else that we can do. We are just focused on the task at hand. So we also— another flow trigger is this complete concentration. So for example, in my— in the example of boxing, I have to be completely concentrated because I have to remember the sequences and to be able to, to do it correctly and think about my form. Then another one is the, the challenge-skills balance. So we're activities where our challenge and our ability go together hand in hand. So because if what we're doing is too challenging for us, we can get overwhelmed, it's too hard, we want to self-distract. If it is not challenging enough for us, we are bored, we are going to procrastinate. So with, with sports, we can tune that quite well because if we want to increase the challenge level, maybe we can try new moves, new tricks. We can try and run faster. We can— if you're playing in a group setting, you play with better people. So you can push yourself to keep getting better and have that sense of improvement. So there are— those are some of the— those. But also another one is clear goals, that you have very clear goals, that when you go to show up for a match or a training session, you are there with something in mind. And some of these triggers aren't always deeply part of our work. But they can be. When we know what they are, you can start to, to put them in there. So for example, with the clear goals, that before you start a task, so if you're about to try and do this flow cycle, that bearing some of these in mind. So setting down, thinking, what do I need to do now? How can I break this down into small chunks rather than seeing this as one big project? Because clear goals, so breaking into bite-sized pieces, is a flow trigger. But then also thinking, why is this important? So I know what I need to do, I know the specific steps, but why, why does this matter? How does this fit into the, the strategy of the business? How is this going to move the needle for them? How is it going to improve my development? Because this is also tapping into intrinsic motivation, which is another flow trigger. So there are some things that we can do to shape it, but whereas when we go do sports, a lot of them are inherently already there.

Yeah. So interesting. All right. Well, look, I'm conscious of our, our time together. So I thought we could have just one final question, which is the same question that typically I'll ask to all of the guests in, in this kind of mini series. And it is now in retrospect, if you were to go back and meet your younger self, just about to start your career, what would be your main kind of piece of advice that you would give to Emily?

Yeah, so if I think back to younger Emily, so I think the main— I wouldn't change too much because if I did, then it wouldn't have got me to where I am now. But if there is one key lesson or piece of advice that I would have for her, it would be that rather than trying to fit in, lean into what makes you stand out. And I think this is something that I realized quite late, that when I went into finance as someone coming from a working-class background, surrounded by people who had quite much more— many of them went to privately educated, they came from more affluent backgrounds— that I sometimes felt a bit of an outsider in the minority, and also as a female. So I would then try and fit in, whether that's with how I speak, that I completely transformed my accent, whether that's the kind of hobbies that I did or how I would participate in activities. But rather than recognizing that that's what made me unique, that ever since that I started to share my story more and lean into my background, but also my super strengths. So that, so, but for me, it's things like I'm incredibly driven, very ambitious, that I am very empathetic and compassionate. But when I was in finance, maybe some of those weren't being used to the fullest. But if I had started to lean into those more, then I think that I could have performed at an even higher level because I would have been being more true to myself, but also in a sea full of people in a really competitive space, really leaning into what makes you who you are.

Cool. It's a great way to finish. So Emily, thank you very much for sharing those insights. There was so much there. I think, you know, I'll have to go back and, and listen again as others will to definitely note down some of those points, but definitely around your journey, which is only, you know, still going at this point, has been fascinating. And some of those details as well about the practical steps of understanding the science and therefore how we can take action, which I think is one of those things that you mentioned. It's like people who can take action. And so I hope that people hearing this can do just that. So thank you very much, Emily, for your time.

Thank you, it's been great speaking with you.