What do traders ACTUALLY do? | Day in the Life of an Investment Bank Trader

Hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast. I'm joined by a special guest, and in fact, this is the first time, Chloe, that we've ever had a repeat guest. So you are the one and only so far. Welcome back to the show.

Okay, thank you. No, that's really cool. Okay, I'll take that. Thanks for having me back. That's super saying, actually.

Well, yeah, you obviously had a great amount of feedback from the community. We had to get you back, and for those who didn't catch the first episode with Chloe Sheppard, then I'm gonna drop the link in the show notes. And that episode was very much about her journey into finance, and we talked predominantly about social mobility as well in the industry. So definitely check that out. This could be somewhat titled part 2, and then this one's gonna be a bit different, uh, 'cause we're gonna talk specifically about the day-to-day realities of a trader. And just given the people who listen to this, I think this conversation's gonna be really cool because of The idea of the mechanics of a desk, like what are the actual realities of the day-to-day? What's some of the terminology? I know you and I love to bust the kind of jargon words, so to speak. So we'll do our best. And then things like perception versus reality. I think when people hear the word trader, there's probably some preconceived ideas that they have. So I'd love to get your take on what is real and what perhaps is not. And then also, of course, you come from a non-traditional path to arrive in your nearly a decade, I see now, that you've done in trading at both Citi and RBC. So I'd love to get from your experience of coming from a non-traditional pathway, from a history student and also from a non-target uni, just some words of advice and things like that. So yeah, perhaps we could start from the top and Uh, you might have seen my, my show notes. I put the Morecambe test. Yes. Um, you might need to kind of elaborate a little bit about why I've called it the Morecambe test.

Um, I'm guessing it's because I'm from Morecambe and not met, like the people I know back home and my family really don't have any idea what I do. They just know I work at a bank. I think, um, some of them probably think I work actually like in a bank, just giving people money out like, like a cash machine. But I'm assuming, assuming that's what you meant.

Yeah. I mean, so we do have some US listeners, so perhaps you could give us a little bit of geography lesson as well.

Yeah. So Morecambe, actually, you'll probably know Morecambe because Tyson Fury's from there, the boxer. Oh, cool.

So I'm sure that's a great shout.

Yeah. So it's like the northwest of England, kind of up near Scotland, the Lake District. It's a seaside town. Quite run down, not that much investment there, although there is some investment going on. We're getting an Eden Project, so hopefully that'll revitalise the area a little bit. But yeah, just a small seaside town surrounded by countryside. Nearest city is Lancaster, which has a university, and then beside that it would probably be Manchester. So yeah, so I, yeah, I come from a very different background to probably most of those that work in my field of business.

Yeah. And I know in that previous episode we went into that in great depth, but the point being for this discussion is that, you know, people going into financial services in London from that part of the country is very rare. So the whole point of this kind of framing of the Morecambe test then was, you just mentioned it there, people might think that you're kind of like a bank teller almost, but There's kind of an added layer of jargon to this because you specifically do credit repo trading, which I think would lose even those who are semi already educated about trading and investment banks. So what's credit repo and how do you explain that to someone?

Yeah, I think I'm probably in one of the most niche products ever, to be honest. Because like you said, when I say trader, most of the people I know are like, oh, what stocks and shares should I invest in? I was like, no, that's not what I do. I can't help you with that. Just stick it in an ISA. But yeah, credit repo trading. I think the most basic way to think of it is I deal with bonds, so company debt. And instead of buying and selling them like a cash bond trader, which is actually what I started out doing when I was a graduate, I borrow and lend them. So if we're gonna do the Malcolm test and how, how I would explain what I do for a job to someone back home, I kind of say, well, actually I don't know if I'm showing my age cuz there's not that many of them around anymore, but a porn shop, like a porn brokerage shop. I'd say that's what I do. So people, people kind of like a porn broker, you go in, you can, maybe if you've got an expensive handbag or an expensive watch. You go into the pawn brokerage, you give them the handbag, and then they give you the monetary value of that back. So you're basically borrowing money versus collateral, and the collateral in that instance is a handbag. But that's what I'm doing every day. But instead of handbags, I'm doing it with bonds. So people are giving me bonds and I'm giving them cash, dollar. And I'm doing that, I'm not just doing that for free. I'm doing that for a price, and I'm charging interest. Which is kind of the same if we think about a mortgage, right? If you're going to the bank to get a mortgage in order to buy a house, you're borrowing money from the bank, and you're paying interest on that money. You're doing the same thing, basically, at the pawnbrokery. You're borrowing money, but you're using your handbag as collateral, but you're also paying interest on that. So that's what I'm doing all day, every day, is I'm borrowing and lending bonds versus cash.

Who are the clients coming in the pawn shop then?

Well, in Morecambe or here, in my job, in my job, in reality, in reality, um, it's hedge funds, it's asset managers, um, other banks, um, anyone basically that has bonds in their investment portfolio, potentially. Who's looking to earn some interest on those, participates in the repo or the securities lending market. So they're the kind of clients that I'm dealing with every day. So the same hedge funds and asset managers that you would deal with on the cash desk, you'd deal with on a repo desk as well.

And what type of volume are we talking here then?

Yeah, and it depends on the collateral, right? So you said before I do credit repo, so I deal with credit corporate bonds, so your Netflix bonds. Your Thames Water bonds, they're quite topical in the past year or so. So I'm dealing with them. The sizes of those are generally smaller than, say, a government repo trader would be dealing with. So a gilt repo trader or a euro, a Bund repo trader, so German government bonds, they deal with yards and yards of bonds. Per day, but that's just the nature of how the cash market also functions. So government bonds in general trade on the larger side— size, whereas credit and corporate bonds deal in more kind of sizes of like 10 million, 20 million, even 1 million if they're really expensive, or like 500Ks as well. So the amount of transactions that I get a day is probably less than a government bond repo trader would do, but the clients that I deal with are probably a little bit more varied. And the type of inquiries are a bit more varied and niche as well.

Right. So, so rather than being so kind of vanilla then, is there a little bit more bespoke nature of it? Does that make it more analytical? Does that make it more any sort of more of the client-side understanding comes into it?

Definitely. So if we think about, we've got like a government bond repo trader, they're only dealing with one section of the market. So UK gilts, right? If we think about gilts, the only difference on them is going to be the coupon difference, the maturity difference, but at the end of the matter, they're UK government bonds. and the trader is only looking at them. So they're only looking at kind of information in relation to the UK and government and the economy and the geopolitical macroeconomics surrounding that. Whereas as a credit repo trader, I'm dealing with thousands of thousands of different companies, um, that all have multiple bonds. So the breadth at which I'm looking at is a lot bigger. And it's not just the different countries, it's also the currency that they deal in. So I dealt sterling, euro, dollar bonds, so all three of them. So when I'm looking at these companies and these corporate bonds, we're not necessarily just looking at repo as an interest rate risk product, which is what it essentially is. I'm also looking at the more kind of fundamental side of it as well. So what kind of drives credit repo is essentially the short market in the cash credit bond market. So what a repo is, we said before, it's a repurchase agreement. We're buying and borrowing and lending bonds rather than buying and selling them. But the reason that we need to borrow and lend them is driven by what's happening in the cash market when cash traders or clients are shorting these bonds. So when we think about fundamentally what it means to short a bond, you're essentially selling a bond that you don't own. So you're going like negative that bond. So you've made an obligation to deliver a bond to someone because you've sold it to them, but you don't have it. So then that's kind of where what I do steps in. So what we will then do is we'll go borrow that bond from somewhere, maybe another bank, maybe a lender. So that we can satisfy that onward sale to the client. So that's kind of why we call repo like the plumbing of the financial system. It's working in the background, it's helping liquidity, it's a big liquidity measure. So when clients and the cash traders at banks short a bond, they then need to go borrow it to satisfy that onward sale. If everyone's shorting the same bond, then that shows an increased demand to borrow that bond, which therefore can drive the price to borrow that bond more expensive. We call that when something's trading special in repo. So as that demand goes up, it also can mean that the supply decreases of the borrow on that bond as well, because everyone's trying to borrow it at the same time and Just because there's a £500 million issue of a bond doesn't mean that all of that £500 million is available to borrow in repo or sec lending. So we kind of come at it from a demand-supply angle then. But we need to think, okay, how can we kind of preempt what's going to go on there? How do we know what everyone's going to short? So that's why you really need to be in touch with what's happening in the credit markets. What credits people are negative on, really looking at the news and kind of thinking, okay, so what potentially is going to be hard to borrow because everyone's shorting it? And that's on the demand side. On the supply side, we're then also monitoring, okay, what bonds are available to borrow, what's seeing a decrease in supply, and what then is potentially going to be more expensive because of that. So there's kind of two prongs to it, and that's why it's really important to know what's going on in the repo market itself, but then also in the credit market as well, the corporate bond market. Because knowing those fundamentals, knowing what potentially, which credits people are negative on, which everyone's going to start shorting, can then help you be better prepared for handling that demand and client inquiries as well.

Just to add a bit of context then, so within trading or normal global markets division in like a larger bank. So let's take Citi, for example. So within that, often you have FICC and equities, so fixed income, commodity currencies, and then equities for US banks tends to be sort of separated because there's a large volume that they deal with. In fixed income as a specific asset class, then how big is credit repo? Compared to then the context of all the other fixed income desks that there are within a big bank?

I'd say it's quite small, but it really depends on the bank. So for instance, some banks will have one credit repo trader and some will have a team of 6, and each of them look at a single currency and different sectors within that. So like, say there'll be like a sterling credit repo trader or a euro credit repo trader, but maybe they split it between sectors, the same that you would do on a credit cash desk. But then other banks will then only have one or maybe two, like one senior, one junior credit trader. And rather than that being kind of a client-facing business, which is profit-making, they're then potentially there as a support mechanism for the cash desk rather than their own profit-making center. So it kind of varies on bank to bank where repo sits and how big it is. And it depends on cash desk size. It depends on, like I said, whether the repo within that bank is seen as profit-making or it's seen as a support function for the cash desk. And also depends where it sits. Quite a lot of the time repo can also sit in the treasury function rather than in global markets as well. So it really is bank dependent. When I was at RBC, it was in global markets, but it's kind of set in its own little pod. And repo traders, there was only 5 or 6 of us in all. And then when I was at Citi, it first started out. As part of the rates business, because like I said before, it is an interest rate business. Then midway through moved to be partnered with Treasury, within Global Markets still, but that team was much bigger. There was 15-odd traders and then even more structures on the desk as well. So it really depends on the bank and the size of the bank and kind of their business direction as well.

And how, how would a student navigate to that specific area? As in, is it, is it that, cause I know you did a, you did like a sales trading, was it in 2017? You did a sales trading internship. So like, I'm assuming there you do like a quite wide exposure and do a bit of a rotation. So, so how do they connect the dots then if it's such a small niche little team?

Yeah. It, and it's the same thing again, it really depends on the bank. So when I did my internship at RBC, repo was not involved in the internship, and they also weren't involved with the graduate programme either. So I think as I said before, I started out as a graduate on the cash credit desk, and then moved into repo after a year, a year and a bit into my career. And that was because a junior role popped up on the desk. And then when I went into that team, I was the youngest and the only female as well on the trading side. And people that had been in the repo business for years and years, who like really experienced, knew everything they were talking about. And that kind of was the vibe in the repo market for probably the first 5 or so years, there weren't that many juniors in it. It was all people that had come in from the start, um, when Repo first started, because it's a fairly new product as well. Well, new in the grand scheme of things to do the financial industry, um, and it was very much everyone had stayed in Repo for their entire careers, um, then And when I moved to Citi, their repo desk was quite heavily involved in the internship and graduate programs. Quite a lot of the juniors on the desk came up through the internship and graduate programs as well, and I was actively involved in managing those whilst I was on the desk. So repo was an option for juniors, interns, or graduates to then be incorporated into. But as I said before, it really depends on the bank and it depends on where the repo trading desk sits within the bank as well. I always, besides having our own kind of rotations for graduates or interns, quite a lot of the time, if you're on the credit cash desk or you're on the rates, like say like gilt trading desk, the cash desk, they will get you to go sit with the repo guys to learn what we do, so it helps your understanding of their trading. So that's one way to kind of get exposure to the product. And yeah, that happens quite a lot because also most of the time the cashiers don't really understand repo, so they'll send the junior over to try and learn it and understand it and come back and explain it to them because it is such a niche thing.

Cool. Another thing just on this area before we move on is Something that students often tell me they find quite useful is it's quite hard to envisage what does a typical day look like in terms of timings and then activities. So what would a classic day look like? Like when are you in, what are the first things you're doing? What are the pinch points of your day in terms of activity and things like that?

Yeah, sure. So I probably come in between 7 and half 7. Depends, just around that time. And then one of the first things that I'm gonna do when I come in is number one, check my emails, because you get hundreds a day. Checking the news, what went on, checking the markets. So logging into Bloomberg, seeing where Crossover ended the day, and basically just double checking that nothing's gone crazy while we've been asleep. I.e., in the US. And then one of the first things that I'll do is I will get, well, out of the way is covering cash desk shorts. So like I explained before, one of the things that we do is supporting the cash desk. So I'll then go out and try and borrow bonds to cover all the cash desk shorts, and then also try and lend out some of their long inventory to make some extra cash as well. So that's the first thing I do. And you start seeing inquiries from clients in credit repo coming through kind of like 8, 9 o'clock-ish. You don't really see them super early in the morning because everyone's too busy trading government bonds in repo because most liquidity is from like 7 till 8 AM. And because that's more of a liquid product, um, all of that happens first thing in the morning, basically. Um, whereas what I do is a little bit less liquid, um, a bit more bespoke and niche, the kind of bonds that they're coming in for. They kind of tend to come in later, um, morning. And then that kind of client inquiry carries all the way through, um, until the end of the day, basically. Obviously, as a trader, that's my primary focus, is responding to client inquiries, whether they're from sales or direct from clients themselves. There also are probably a lot of other manual tasks that need doing on the desk, especially for someone at a junior level. So reports that need sending out, P&L reports at the end of the day. Um, risk managing, risk reports as well. Um, so it is, it does change from day to day. Um, but my primary response is to be there for clients and their needs.

All right. Well, let's, um, let's talk about something a bit, bit different, which was something I mentioned right at the beginning of the, of the program, which was the kind of perception and stereotypes as opposed to realities from a culture perspective. Because I think for, and particularly as the industry aims to have a better balance of diversity, both in gender and also in social setting. So kind of busting some of those. So it's actually, is it more accessible than perhaps some people think? Because I think when people think trading floor, they think of what they see in the movies, which is often a depiction of lots of shouty, angry men. So what is actual the reality of that? And is it fast-paced, stressful, high pressure, or is it more analytical and problem-solving than perhaps people give it credit for?

It is more of the latter. That's not to say that it isn't high pressure and loud environment, like a trading floor. Is quite a noisy place, um, just in general, um, compared to other offices. I went into my partner's law office and it was silent, and I was like, oh my gosh, how do you work in this? But then if he came in to see where I worked, where everyone's chatting all the time, is you have to shout over people sometimes to— if you need something doing urgently and you're trying to focus, but also you've got constant background noise going on, if you're not able to multitask or work in a non-silent environment, then trading floor probably isn't for you. But that's, that's a bank's trading floor, right? If you're a trader at probably a hedge fund or buy side, I reckon the office environment's a little bit different, I would think, a little bit more quiet. Because if you think about it, trading floors are like a massive, massive room. There's like hundreds of people on there, and consisting of sales, trading, and support, and tech staff. And the way that everyone's communicating when you're in the office is face-to-face talking. So obviously if hundreds of people are doing that at the same time, then it's going to get a little bit noisy. I'd say it has died down a little bit. It's not as noisy, not as many people are on the phones as used to be, because now most of the chatting with clients or with other people in the bank is actually done via IB. So actually a lot of the communication has shifted from in-person, loud on the trading floor, to through technology, but it still is a noisier place. Than other offices, I would say, to work.

Just to jump in quickly, IB is what exactly? Just for those who don't know.

Sorry, like instant messenger, IM. So Bloomberg has its own chat function, like chat rooms, basically, like MSN Messenger, if people are old enough to have ever been on that. But I don't know because—

I was gonna say, you're getting old, Clare.

I know, I was gonna say, at what point are you saying I've been in It's fine, that's nearly a decade. I was like, oh my gosh, I am getting old. But yeah, so it's like, it's like MSN Messenger basically for finance professionals to conduct business on. So everyone logs into their Bloomberg terminal and is paced, like clients will put their trade inquiries to a salesperson and the salesperson will then ask the trader. So that's most of my business actually done on chat. So the repo market is quite OTC still. Um, there are trading venues and quite a lot of the government repo bonds get traded on platforms. Um, and there is other trading platforms that the hedge funds and asset managers use to trade with us as well, but it's still very OTC. Done via chat, especially in credit repo, because the kind of nature of the transactions are a little bit more bespoke. Um, that's one of the reasons I like it so much, because it is kind of like that, and I do get to speak to clients and kind of talk it over and negotiate a lot more than it would be on a platform. Um, but yeah, as I said, IB and messaging, those platforms have kind of taken away a lot of the volume on the trading floor. But it still is quite, quite loud, quite high pressure. And if clients are coming in and need a price quickly, then things can get a little bit, not heated, but raised voices, trying to get an answer, trying to push to get stuff done and make money. Not everyone's suited to working in that kind of environment, because it can get a bit stressful. If you want to sit there with your headphones on, listen to music and do analytics and code all day. Um, not to say that you can't do that, you can completely do that in a bank. Um, and the trading floor definitely needs more coders, but I don't necessarily think a trading floor would be the environment where you would excel in that respect.

Correct me if I'm— yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, like the way you were describing that then, Do you think that you had ascertained some of those skills because that you were like a waitress, right? When you were studying, when you were at university, do you think that there's a pretty much a similarity between that type of responsive to the client? They're asking for demands, you're managing multiple things, things are changing, there's a problem to be solved, someone's food is cold or whatever. It's like, do you think you've got some of those skills that were transferable?

Oh God, definitely. I always say working facing the public, like, early on in life sets you up to be very able to deal with most things in work. Um, because you come across difficult customers, um, you come across, like, fair enough, it's not on the same, it's not the same products, it's not the same environment that you're dealing with them in, um, but essentially it's the same, right? I'm there, I'm providing someone a service, um, I'm selling them something, um, and then also I'm waiting on them for a response, which is like I'm servicing customers, which is the same thing I do now in my job. I'm servicing customers. It's just that the customers are different and the stuff that I'm servicing them with is bonds, not steaks. So, um, But yeah, I think communication-wise, like waitressing, it made me definitely be a bit more confident because I had to deal with new people all the time and people that don't know me and I like, I don't know them, so I don't know how they're gonna react. It really helped me with my people skills, I would say, but also working in a high-pressure environment. Restaurants, like being in a kitchen and having to work in a kitchen with cooks, like that's a high— I would say that's a high-pressure environment as well. Um, it can get really heated, same as on the trading floor. Um, people can get angry. And also you work long hours, you work shift, and you're also on your feet the whole day. Um, so you're thinking on your feet, you're being proactive, you're multitasking quite a lot of the time as well. You're dealing with people, difficult people, and you're in a high-pressure environment, which is, I would say, the same skills that I need now and deal with now.

No, I think that's such a great thing for many of the people listening to hear, because sometimes I get this attitude that they, because they haven't secured some sort of professional experience at some point, like working within a bank or an accountancy or something like that, that's for some reason they feel almost embarrassed by these other experiences, which as you've described, almost feel like the perfect training ground for all of the non-technical skills that are really important to do your role, right?

I'd much rather hire someone who's had a part-time job, to be honest, because it shows that they've got determination and they know they've already basically worked, so they know what's required of them. I think as long as you are drawing on the transferable skills from these experiences in these jobs, it's fine. You also need to kind of pair that up with showing that you do have an interest in finance as well. You need to have a balance. So whether that's through like a university society or maybe going to a conference, I think that's super important to have alongside because Your interest can't just come from like nowhere, right? If you've got these, all these part-time jobs and then potentially like me, you didn't do a finance degree, then your CV's not really gonna come across as if it's like, why, well, why do you wanna work here? There's nothing here telling me that you want to work in finance. Now, as you're saying, like it's really hard to get experiences and work experience and internships, like even more so now than it was when I did them. But you need to be able to show that you have interest and that you've pursued that off your own back as well.

Given then on that point that you did a, you know, that kind of liberal arts mindset from what you studied when you were at university.

Yeah.

How, how did that translate then? And what advice would you give someone as to what they could be talking about? Because you also studied maths though, right? And then wasn't there a switch? If I remember rightly.

Yeah, so a bit weird. Yeah, I mean, I've always liked both arts and sciences, so when I did my AS levels, I did 5 because I'm indecisive and also thought I could do 5, which was a very silly decision. So I did like chemistry, maths, history, biology, and further maths. Um, needless to say, I didn't do very well at them, and I had to cut down to 3 when it came down to the A-levels. Um, but I've always had that kind of split brain, whereas I liked both arts and sciences. And so when I was applying for unis, like you said, I was applying for liberal arts programs, but I was also applying to Scottish universities because you do 3 subjects in your first 2 years. It's a bit more kind of like the US version where you do like your major/minor. So I initially went to Glasgow Uni to do mathematics. That's what I got accepted to do and got in, and I did 2 years of maths. But I also did maths alongside history and archaeology. So, when it came to the end of my second year, I realised maths at university is really not like maths at school, and I can't just get the right answer. I need to actually do all the working out and write everything out very methodically and do proofs, and a bit more philosophical than I initially thought. 'Cause the reason I like maths is because I like getting the answer right. And I just had a, a love for history anyway. So I then switched to history and then yeah, I came out of university with a Master of Arts in History. Now people probably say that's not relevant to finance, but it, in my head it is because all I'm doing is taking information research, whether that's qualitative or quantitative, because I looked at both in my history degree when I was researching for essays. And then I'm outputting an argument. And that's what I'm doing. Well, or writing an essay that's showing an argument. I'm making a decision in that. I'm looking at all the factors. I'm looking at all the research. I'm looking at the qualitative data. I'm looking at the quantitative data, and I'm putting an output, which is my essays and my, my viewpoint on the essay subject, which is what I'm doing every day, right? I'm looking at data, qualitative and quantitative. So I'm looking at the news, I'm looking at charts, I'm looking at the markets, I'm looking at numbers, but I'm also looking and reading what's going on in the world and what's going on with these corporates that I'm trading. And I'm taking all that information and I'm making a decision and putting an output in that. But I'm just doing that through borrowing and lending bonds or buying and selling bonds. So the skillset needed is exactly the same, it's just a different medium. And not only that, history also, I feel like it's a very good subject in terms of like emotional intelligence as well, because it makes you consider all sides of an argument and whether there's biases involved, whether the sources that you're looking at are biased, um, whether looking at how people react, people's behavior during different periods of time. Um, and that's something that happens in trading as well. Like, you need such good emotional intelligence because also at the other end, the person that you're trading with, or the person that's done the trade that's then affecting what's going on in the market, is also another person. So it's actually more about human behavior, really. Well, In an OTC market like mine, yes. You could argue now that because more AI and coding being involved, that it's not necessarily always a human on the other end. But I would say, okay, well, that code was written by a human, so it still has an element of human behavior behind it. And that's what you're analyzing as well when you're trading. You're thinking, okay, so what does this mean? Are people going to short this bond? Are companies going to short this bond? Yes. Okay. Where do you think they'll go to get it? And then working it that way backwards as well. So I suppose it's the way you swing it, right? I would say there's transferable skills from any degree that you do. It's just how you then utilize them.

Yeah. I think when I started working in markets, just how influential like the behavioral finance side was. My preconceived idea was it was much more quantitative. And technical, but actually, as you rightly said, like human behavior can be incredibly irrational and inconsistent most of the time.

So at the moment, what is influencing markets most is a person, Trump, right?

Yeah. No, it's, and also like on that point, I think history is such a useful skill in how the macro themes have evolved over the last decade or so. I think certainly since Brexit happened in 2016 and then the rise of populism and the polarization of politics and geopolitics to where we are in the modern day, I think you can unlock a lot of forward thinking by understanding why these types of situations, relationships, why they exist. The history of these relationships really does give you a lot of good intelligence, I think, to supplement the quantitative inputs now we get from data and so forth.

Oh no, definitely.

One of the things you mentioned there was about, yeah, one of the things you mentioned was about the A-levels. You went from 5 to 3, and then with trading, obviously, you know, you're going to mistime things, you're going to get things wrong. You're going to come out, as you said, with your thesis that you're writing, with your essay, it's not always going to be right in terms of an outcome to say what someone thinks or of that nature. It's very black and white in trading. And so developing this kind of resilience or resiliency seems like such a critical skill for success. And I hear that a lot from the senior traders that I've talked to on this, this show. My question for you then is what advice could you give to someone who rather than being told to be resilient. And, you know, your life circumstance might have dealt you a hand where resiliency was part of life.

Yeah.

Some of, some other people that might not be the case. So how can we all start to develop those muscles so we can be more resilient individuals in your mind?

I think that comes from a place of getting comfortable with making mistakes. And being able to deal with them at the time, but also deal with them in a calm manner and a problem-solving kind of way. So instead of dwelling on mistakes that you do, um, then thinking, okay, this has happened, it's done now, what can I do to fix it or mitigate the risks that it's kind of brought up? Um, I think also It's not only just getting comfortable with mistakes, right? It's getting comfortable talking about them and also owning up to them as well. I think when you start out, and especially if it's in an environment that you're not used to and you're trying to impress, like say you're on an internship, um, you kind of want to come across as if you know everything and that you're, you know what you're doing, and, and you ask questions, but If you do something wrong, you don't necessarily want to talk it through or ask, ask for help. And I think it's so important to get comfortable, number one, to ask for help, accepting that everyone makes mistakes. I still make mistakes now as a trader, um, but really learning how to deal with them in a constructive way. Um, and that's mentally, but also in practice as well. Um, like, even now I make mistakes mentally. I'm probably not very good at dealing with them because I'll beat myself up about them for days, weeks after. Um, but as soon as I've made it, I'm then thinking, okay, so how do I fix this? Who do I need to tell? Who needs to be aware of this? And who can help me sort it out as well? Um, you work as a team on a trading like when you're in a trading pod. So it's important to trust those around you and be comfortable asking them for help as well. And I think you build resilience through making mistakes, and that's also how you learn as well, right? Um, you'll learn a lot more from making a mistake once than probably getting everything right all the time. Um, and I think it's really important as well to help develop your problem-solving skills anyway, which is also another skill that's super important on the desk. Um, so that, that would probably be my advice is like, don't, don't let mistakes define you, but also get comfortable in making them and learning from them and being able to practically fix them.

Yeah, there's a couple, couple of things I was noting down there, cause I like, I think it's so important what you were saying and, uh, I definitely think it's like a two-way street. I think there's some accountability on the people who run the desk. Yes. Which is to be quite transparent, to be creating an environment where someone feels like, you know, they can come forward if there's an issue or a problem or a question. Because like you said, it's too often the case that there's almost like this intimidation factor where therefore you don't want to look bad, but you've got to cultivate an environment where, you know, it's okay to fail as long as we learn and adapt. And then improve the processes or identify so that doesn't happen again. And then the other side of that is from the student side or the intern or the grad, which is you have to take accountability for your actions. I think that's, you know, like you were saying then, you've got to take accountability by A, communicating, owning the mistake, but then going away and like you said, being proactive and working on it yourself as well as a desk to improve the process, but yourself. How do I ensure that, you know, these sorts of things are minimized as much as they can be going forward? And that can be getting rest or like, you know, your concentration levels, your food, your sleep, your relationships, like all these things that not just, you know, technical stuff all of the time. Cool. Well, look, I know you can't say too much, but I know you're off to do new things shortly. So we'll be very much looking with interest to see your next moves, so to speak. But I guess a closing question here is that looking back at your time that you've had then over this past decade or so at RBC and Citi, what's one thing you'll be taking with you that isn't found in a textbook, so to speak?

I think, okay, there's a few things. I know you said one thing. I think the first thing is taking opportunities that scare you. Is really important. When I— I was at RBC for 5 years when I moved to Citi, and it was terrifying, but I learned a lot from it. I went from a place from where I kind of grown up and been an intern and a grad, to then to a new place with lots of new people, um, with no preconceived notion of me or who I was, and I kind of had to work from the ground up again. So, but I learned so much from that. Another thing, I went and lived and worked in Hong Kong for 3 months while I was at Citi, and that was also terrifying again. Like, that opportunity was really scary, being so far away from home, um, for 3 months without anyone that really knew apart from my boss on the desk at the time. Um, but I, I'm so, so grateful for that opportunity and I had the best 3 months there and I learned so much about myself, but also so much about how the market functions differently out there. Now, there was probably periods of time in like the first 5 years of my career that I would've been too scared to say yes. To those opportunities, um, more for me because I wouldn't then be where I am today and have met so many amazing people and learnt so much. But I think it's important to take opportunities that scare you, and it's also okay to admit at the end of those, okay, I've done that now, it's great, that's not what I want going forward, and then to change again. I think change is good. Change breeds opportunity. Makes you a stronger person, makes you more resilient as well, because you're dealing with different environments. So yeah, that would be my advice.

Great advice. Just, you're so like approachable. And so, you know, the way you talked about explaining the credit repo market, I think was really easy to follow. So I'm sure that's opened up another realm of opportunities for people to think about. And certainly I hope that when people are thinking about trading desks and so forth, that, you know, there's different types of traders of which what you've described is probably quite different to what most people associate with a lot of these bulge bracket kind of bank roles that exist. So we'll have to get you back for a third time. Who knows what we'll cover at that point.

I'd love to come back.

But, uh, I'm sure we will, and I wish you all the best with your future endeavors from everyone on the Amplify Me team. And yeah, thank you as always, Chloe.

No, thank you for having me. It's been great. I always love having conversations with you because you never know where it's going to go.

Yeah, I was asking you about those guitars in the background there, and you disappointed me and said they weren't yours.

I know, I wish, I wish they were mine. Maybe I should ask for some lessons, but no, they're not, alas. Yes.

All right. Well, thanks very much everyone for listening and take care, Kai. All the best.