Conscious Healing at Work with Susan Schmitt Winchester

Welcome to the Happiness Squad Podcast. Your weekly dose of practical tips and inspiration to help you operate at your fullest potential, integrating the science of flourishing into how you live, work and lead. I'm your host, Ashish Kothari, the founder and CEO of Happiness Squad and author of the best selling book Hardwired for Happiness. I will be your personal guide on your journey to explore the many facets of happiness, well being and flourishing, from personal growth to building more positive environments at work. In each episode we will share powerful insight, tips and stories from our guests who are leading experts, company executives and flourishing solution providers that you can implement right away to make happiness your competitive edge. Whether you're looking to overcome life's challenges, to go from good to great, or to enhance your team's performance through flourishing, this podcast is the place for you to find more joy, health, love and meaning in everything you do. Join us every week as we rewire for Happiness Together. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Happiness Squad Podcast, your go to place for embracing the art and science of flourishing. In today's episode I'm joined by Susan Schmidt Winchester, author of the bestselling book Healing at Work and a seasoned Fortune 100 executive with over 36 years of global experience. She most recently was the Senior Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer for Applied materials, a Fortune 150 Silicon Valley company. Susan is deeply passionate about teaching and inspiring executives on how to succeed by becoming more self aware and practicing greater self acceptance to live more fulfilled and joyful lives at home and at work. In today's episode we touch on several critical topics including the power of vulnerability and the courage it takes to overcome fear and step into our fullest potential the intriguing concepts of ASDPs, adult survivors of a damaged past, and how early trauma can shape and sometimes shake our professional lives and 3 walking the conscious healing career path versus stumbling along the unconscious wounded career path. You will walk away from today's episode with several practical trips including how to recognize your triggers, how to process deep seated emotions, and how to keep moving forward on the conscious path towards career healing. And Susan doesn't just stop at individual transformation. She'll also share why integrating healing practices in organizations is not just necessary, but revolutionary. So buckle up dear friends, for a heartening journey on learning to embrace our past, write our own stories and heal together at work. Hi Susan, welcome to the show. Such a pleasure to have you with us.

Hi Ashish, it's nice to be with you. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Oh my God. The pleasure is all Ours. So look, I mean, you know, you have such an amazing background and such a rich life and I think we're not going to be in any dearth of stories and such helpful tips, you know, for those who are looking to flourish individually or create flourishing at work. But before we jump into all of that, I would love for you to share a little bit about your background. Right. With our audience. And in particular, you know, I want you to talk a bit about, you talk about this experience in 2002 that was a big turning point for you. There was kind of first, you know, first chapter, second chapter. And at that moment when you realize that, you know, you could have a very different experience right through your career. So tell us about that. Let's jump right in.

Sure. So just to set the stage for who I am, I feel like my middle name is human resources because I've been in the corporate HR world for 36 years and 16 of those years I've been privileged to be in the Chief HR officer role for two, you know, really well known public companies. And I think I probably have done just about every job in the HR organization. And I've, I've done the job both inside the US as well as outside. And so it's just been an amazing career. I could not be happier that I've been able to be blessed by working for so many great companies. Applied Materials, that's where I am currently. Before that, Rockwell Automation, the Kellogg company. I've worked in lots of industries as well. I worked at the Federal Reserve bank of Chicago and did some management consulting. So I've had a unbelievable set of experiences. And maybe more importantly is along that journey, I've just been so blessed to be surrounded by teachers, leaders, advisors, mentors. And I feel like I've learned a kind of a unique way of looking at the world lens of hr. I've been really blessed on that front. And yeah, so in 2002, a couple things happened. Probably the one that I was thinking about when you and I were talking before is I had just been given my first biggest executive job as an HR leader, stepping in to be the head of HR for a multi billion dollar business at one of the companies where I worked. And the team I was joining had a reputation. They called themselves the Pirates. And you know, just to give you a flavor, they were incredibly talented, very aggressive, take no prisoners. It just, you know, they just had this, you know, personality and Persona within the company. Nine men from different parts of the world. And my predecessor who was in the role wasn't in the role very long and sort of left and it was unsure. It was unclear why she. And sadly not. I don't think it was that long after she left. She actually died of a heart attack. So I'm not saying the two things are correlated, but I, I had never been in a big HR partner role like I was stepping into. So I remember my very first meeting with this group. They were going around, four hour meeting, President was asking for feedback and updates. And towards the end of the meeting he said, are there any other updates? And I said, yes, I have some very important HR things to share with you all. And I'll never forget that one of the men stood up, he looked at me directly, slammed his notebook shut, and then he walked out of the room before I had a minute to talk. And I was crushed. And, and actually, I think another one of his colleagues followed him. And I thought, oh my God, this is executive hood. I mean, I. You talk about feeling small and, you know, one of the things I don't mention when I'm, I'm typically introducing myself is that 30 of those 36 years of my career, nobody would have ever known this, but my accomplishments were really fueled by my own belief about myself, limiting belief about myself that I wasn't good enough. So here I am stepping into this group of leaders who were incredibly successful at no time for me. And to make a very long story short, the next 11 months of my life were really hell. I cried a lot, I drank a lot of chardonnay to take the edge off anxiety. And I felt like nothing I did would prove that I was valuable and I was very lucky. I was working with an executive coach at the time. And I said, I'm leaving. I'm going to put my resume together and I'm going to leave. And she said, well, you know, Susan, before you do that, you can resign next week. I'll never forget, their name's Tony Chinoy. I'll never forget this. She said, you can resign next week, but before you do that, let's just make sure you don't have any behavior patterns going on here that might be fueling your current situation. And so she had me do this exercise. And it was life changing. And the exercise was she said, I want you to think of those nine men and tell me who are the worst of the group? Who are the hardest on you? So I picked out four of them. And then she said, I want you to imagine that you're in their eyes looking at you. And if I were to ask them to tell me, what animal do you represent? If you were to be described in the form of an animal, what would it be? And I thought for a minute, I started laughing, and I'm like, oh, my God, they see me as this little golden retriever, puppy dog. All I wanted them to do was pat me on the head and tell me that I was doing great, you know, good girl. And then she had me get back in my eyes and she said, all right, now I want you to tell me what each one of those four men are. You know, pick an animal for each of them. One was a grizzly bear, one was a wolf with long fangs, one was a gorilla, and the other was a hyena, laughing and smiling but circling me, ready to go in for the kill. And it was one of those moments in a person's life where you go, oh, my God, I'm creating this whole thing. So what was happening was my neediness for them to validate me, my unconscious belief that it was people, everybody else's job, particularly men in authority. And I perceived them to be more authoritative than me or masculine women that they own the right to determine my value. And my job was to be as perfect as possible as people, pleasing as possible, to get that, you know, that much needed validation. So kind of totally broken thinking at the time. But when she helped me realize this insight that I was creating this energy force that was actually pushing them away from me and it was life changing, it really helped me realize that my reactions to other people, my triggered responses, my feeling poorly about myself, that's all my property. As Melody Beatty talks about in her book, the Language of Letting Go. And when I started to realize, I realized that I had to start showing up from a different place. I had to stop looking to them to validate me. I could not be successful as a vice president of HR if I was constantly giving away all my power. So that was a major turning point on my journey to realize that I own this, my accountability. And actually ended up working with these guys for four and a half more years, still friends with many of them to this day.

And if you were to describe them now from your eyes, what animals would they represent now, Susan? And how would they see you?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think they would see me in a very different form of an animal. I think they would see a stronger animal. You know, one of the things I really worked hard, I wasn't trying to change my personality because part of my nature is to be someone who values relationships and wants people to know that I do good work, but I needed to take on a stronger energy. So I actually. I don't know if they would agree with lioness, but I started to really practice stepping in when I felt really nervous and worried about them judging me. I would imagine myself as a lioness. So I don't know if they would pick that or not, but that would be my desired outcome. And I would describe them as. I don't know if I would. Let's see, those four guys. The grizzly bear and I became very good friends. In fact, I would say he was more like kind of, you know, he wasn't a grizzly bear. He's more of a cuddly, you know, koala bear, maybe. The wolf was probably always going to be a wolf. That's just his. His temperament and personality. I don't, you know, he's one of those people who doesn't care what anybody thinks about him. He just says and does what he wants. And I don't really think he would change too much. The hyena, I took on pretty directly on something. And so I. I would say that he would not be a hyena. He would still be a strong animal, but not one that would be going on the attack. So, you know, maybe more of trying to think of an animal that's strong but not necessarily out there trying to attack everything, maybe, you know, I don't think of coyotes. Probably not good. I just don't feel really feel threatened by coyotes. And then the gorilla, I don't perceive him as a gorilla, but he still shows up in this world as a go. He still intimidates a lot of people. He doesn't intimidate me anymore. I would say, you know, more of a. Actually, you know, when you start to take back your own power, you start to really work on your own relationship with yourself. You start to become much more aware as a leader. The size of the, you know, sort of the monster starts to really get much smaller. Much smaller.

No, I love. I love that chat. First of all, thank you for opening with such vulnerability and sharing. Right. There's not a lot of people who feel comfortable right away dipping into. I felt not enough. And that was kind of the driving fuel. I think the second piece, which is so powerful in what you just said, Susan, also, is this notion of we see the world as we are. Right. So it isn't so much that they changed who they were. Maybe you start seeing them slightly differently. But the bigger shift, even as you reflected back, was you going from a puppy golden retriever that needs to be petted and accepted and shown instead of looking for worth out there. The lioness is comfortable, fierce, loving, by the way, provides the predominant hunting. Right. Brings in the kill. I love that you picked the lioness because that's also something that is so powerful about a lioness, which is as you pick. That same is true for the grizzly bear mama, by the way. But you notice that, you know, it was your relationship, your own image that then starts. And I almost, you know, as we were describing this, you know, I go back to like, you know, I'm reminded of the Lion King. Hey, we don't have to play the roles and think one over the other. We can all inter exist in the unique roles and be friends. And that's where the transformation happens.

That's beautiful. I love how you said that. That's really beautiful. Yeah.

So now talk to us a little bit of you live for 30 years, as you said, feeling not enough. So share a little bit about where that comes from. And in fact, that's underneath so much of your bestselling book. I can see to the back healing at work. So talk to me a little bit about how that whole 30 years inspired you to write it and distill some of the key insights there for our viewers and listeners.

Yeah. Thank you for the question. I had another sort of unusual experience. It was in 2003, I believe might have even been 2002. But right about the same time I was working with the Pirates. I went through a personal development seminar called Pathways to Successful Living in Chicago. And I was in the leadership course. And one of the exercises was to help the participants really discover their life purpose. And what became very clear, almost revealed to me through the work, was that my life purpose is to teach self acceptance, to create a more joyful world. And every time I say that, get chills because I really do feel like it's God inspired. So that happened. And then a little bit later, I.

Was, by the way, I felt it too, just so that, you know. So I think it is way more. I, I think it's. That is so present with you.

Thank you. I get chills when I get, when I talk about it because it's really powerful. But I had this opportunity to discover this purpose. And you know, just shortly after that, I was on the management team of the company I was working for in a union negotiation with several of our manufacturing facilities. And in those experiences, you have a lot of downtime. So you give the union your proposal, they go off to their membership, and then, you know, it can be hours. And I just felt that I was supposed to start writing down some stories from my life. So I just started writing. I started writing in 2004, and by the way, I'm not a writer, so just make. Make a note of that later on. Martha Finney helps me a lot to be able to express myself, and we had a great partnership with the book, but I just started writing some stories, some things that had happened when I was growing up. And so it was sort of over several years where I just felt like I was supposed to write down some stories. And I had done a presentation for a group in Singapore that I was working with, and they'd asked me to talk about my career. And I thought, well, that's going to be really boring. So I positioned it as my career through the lens of the good, the bad, and the ugly. And as I was doing this presentation, I mean, I had 100 people in the room. You could have heard a pin drop. And what I realized when I was putting it together was actually the bad experiences were the most helpful and educational to me to understand how I can continue to grow as a leader. In fact, I learned so many more things through the terrible things that happened, both personally and professionally, that I thought it was really. It was a message I needed to get out about the importance of going through difficult times and leveraging it for better leadership. And one of my mentors at the time said, that's what you should write about. So I sat down in 2016 and 2017 and got really serious about writing up some of these stories. And I finished my very first manuscript in late 2018, but I really didn't know what to do with it because I'd never written a book. And again, all this, I'm going to get emotional. All this is the things that have happened on this journey. I know God has been touching because a woman that I had written a chapter for in a book, an HR book, an HR book called HR Directions. Martha Finney claims I looked at her LinkedIn profile one Friday. I don't have any memory of this. She and I had worked together, like three years before that. So she pinged me and she said, hey, we should connect. I want to know what you're up to. So the first question she asked me was, what have you been up to? And I said, well, I wrote this manuscript. I don't really know what to do with it. Well, she's a professional writer. She's published, written probably 30 books and very uncharacteristic of Martha because she's very good at what she does. She said, I want you to send me your manuscript. And I offered to pay her because I thought, oh boy, this, you know, this seems like a really generous offer, which of course it was, but she said, no, just send it to me. I sent it to her the Sunday morning. So we talked on a Saturday, the Sunday morning she would get up at like 3 o' clock in the morning. When she was living in Santa Fe, that's when she liked to do her creative work. And she wrote me this long email and she said, I've been in Florida for the last three months in self seclusion at an Airbnb processing my very difficult childhood and I feel like God has been preparing me to work with you. And I got tears when she wrote that. It was so powerful. And later that day, so in the evening, I can't remember when she wrote me a note, she said, all I want to know is how do you go from that background to that career and are you open to some new ideas of positioning it? And that became my partnership with Martha. Martha and I have been working together since August of 2018. We basically restructured. My manuscript was written over many years and by somebody who's not a great writer. But Martha herself came from a very dysfunctional childhood, as did I. And together, and she and I are just night and day as you could possibly imagine in terms of personalities. But it was, it was like magic. And we spent about another two and a half years creating Healing at Work and really getting into the science of neuroplasticity and how we can actually change the neural pathways in our brain to have different thoughts. We got into deep on positive psychology, did a ton of research and it was perfect because the pandemic was happening at this time. And then In March of 21, we were close to publishing it and I, I said, I can't do it. I cannot publish this book. And I was really afraid of, you know, because I'm very vulnerable both in the book or in my keynote or in any of the courses I've created. I'm very open about things that I've experienced and I was really worried about professional judgment and personal judgment from my family. And Martha recommended I meet with this woman named Celine DaCosta and I spent a 90 minute one on one session with her. And in that session she's my personal coach now. I love her. In that 90 minute session, what she helped me realize and why Healing at Work was finally published is that my purpose for writing the book. My why was way bigger than my fear. And it was like. It was like somebody put armor on me. And, you know, I just thought, I'm opening myself up to the world because it's supposed to happen. And that's how the book ended up getting published. Otherwise, you know, there'd no. There'd be no healing at work. Uh, it was. It was the combination of Martha and the coaching and what we created and then Celine's guidance that got me to a place where I was comfortable putting it out into the world.

Thank you for sharing that, Susan. There's a couple of things that really come up for me. You know, Susan, as you shared your story behind the premise behind the book, and those two events, they resonate so deeply. You know, in my own journey around this work, I've experienced both of those magical, magical moments. Right. I think one you talked about in your conversation where you talked about the why. You know, I talk about this in the work that I do where I say, you know, from Fear to Freedom, which was the original title of my book, not Hardwired for Happiness. I love that the original title was From Fear to Freedom.

Oh, my gosh.

I always say the fear will always win. The fear will always win.

Oh, my gosh. I love that.

What you need is the gravitational pull of the why? The purpose to pull you out of that gravitational pull of fear. Right. You need something that's stronger. And so I love that echoed in what you just said.

Yeah.

Your why of why you had to write this book was way bigger than the fear of being judged.

It was. Yep.

Right. And then, you know, I have a similar story around how the universe magically works to really bring the right people in your pathway and you in their pathway. You know, so this is. So we have a course called Rewire, which is all around building habits around these nine hardwired for happiness practices. Because, you know, we know what it takes to be happy. We know how to live well. The problem is we don't practice it. Right. And so in one of my vipassana meditations, you know, the ten day silent meditation.

Oh, my gosh.

I had this insight that had dropped that you need to create a course around habit formation. In fact, I actually got all 36 practices in one in one meditation that had come to me.

Wow. Oh, you gave me. You're giving me chills.

Right. Like, literally, I'm in the full script. And so, I mean, after I got back, you know, we were gonna go create it. I was. I had. I was writing this up. I wrote all of them. Right? I wrote the. I did all the research. I did everything around it. Three weeks before I was going to record it. Literally. I'm not kidding, Susan. Three weeks before I was gonna record it. I'm talking to a friend of mine about the book because he has a podcast, and he wanted me to come speak on his podcast. And I shared with him the premise and what we were doing. And I said, you know, I want to connect you to somebody because I think you both will really get to enjoy each other. He had no idea I was actually creating this course, which is based on the science of habit formation. He connects me to this woman. Her name is Juni. We had her on our podcast, actually, very early on. Her name is Juni Felix. Juni, Check this out. This is crazy, Susan. Juni teaches tiny habits with BJ Fogg.

Are you kidding?

At Stanford.

Oh, my gosh.

And she agreed to actually edit all of our scripts for the Rewire program three weeks before I was gonna go record it.

Oh, my gosh. That's amazing. That is really magical. Yeah. That's crazy.

So it's a little bit of that story of what you just, you know, your co author just kind of in that moment saying, you know, my whole life has been preparing me for this, and you all partner. So, you know, friends, there are no instant. There are no happenstances. There are no, like, accidents. Right. I think if we allow ourselves to tune into so much that's happening around and let the universe flow through us, around living into our purpose, we don't have to fight our way through the world.

That is so beautifully said. And I think the challenge that I certainly have, and I know many people have, is just slowing down long enough to listen to what. What a soul inspired path looks like. As Celine would say, you know, that that download that you got, was your soul attracted that because of your desire to make a difference for people. And all that knowledge came from, you know, whatever you want to call it. I call it God, or the universal world of knowledge that just downloaded to you. I mean, that. That's just so amazing. And I agree. It's just slowing down long enough to connect with what the opportunities and possibilities could be. I think we're like magnets. I know that people have talked about this before, but when we put our intentions out there, it's amazing what starts to happen. That's how you and I met through the amazing Chantel.

I mean, unbelievable, right?

And it was just coincidental. I went to an event where she Was and we sat by each other and really connected. It's just so cool.

Yeah, attraction feels. In fact, friends, I will try and put it. Remember to put this in one of our in the show notes. I'm gonna put in a link to article which was published, I read it four weeks ago in Popular Mechanics. It's by a quantum physicist and a quantum biologist who's talking about and basically showing that this notion of, you know, a universal consciousness and each of us being manifestations of that universal consciousness, something that you might hear in Buddhist text, I mean, they explain how quantum physics and quantum biology is actually starting now to prove that that very mal might be the dominant hypothesis. It's an unbelievable article and it talks about how at the core of it, this whole notion of energy fields and particles and how we are all both particles and energy doesn't just show up and happen in super cold temperatures. We see it every day. In fact, that's at the heart of photosynthesis around how plants take light and that energy and able to convert it into food and something of source. And so it's an unbelievable article. But for those who think, hey, what are this? What is the chro and this guy all boo vu? It's not, you know, science is discovering what people in spiritual worlds have known forever.

You are so right. I agree. I love it. I can't wait to read the article. Sounds fascinating.

So I link that. But let's come back to your work. And you know, I was really intrigued by, you know, you talk about ASDPs, right? You introduced the concept of ASDPs and how they show up in our work and our lives. So without telling everybody what the ASDP is, I'll have them hear it directly from you.

Sure. So when Martha and I were writing the book, what we discovered through the research we were doing was really surprising to both of us. Which, you know, there's been some amazing researchers, cdc, Kaiser Permanente, a couple doctors did this very interesting study back in the late 90s. They asked 17,000 people in the US which I checked and I know that at least some of the countries have replicated the research, but they asked these 17,000 people, you know, we're going to give you a list of 10 things that can happen to a person before the age of 18 what they call the aces or adverse childhood experiences. And they're ten pretty serious things. I mean, it's physical, emotional, sexual abuse, neglect, violence in the home, addiction, etc. So it's 10 negative things. And of course there are many other potential Traumas, or as Gabor Mate talks about trauma, just thinking about it as an emotionally an emotional wound. And they asked these 17,000 people, you know, of all these 10 things, how many of these did you experience? And what they discovered was that nearly two thirds of that population said they had experienced at least one of those aces, the adverse child experiences. You know, so the fact is, is that growing up in a, you could call it dysfunctional childhood or difficult childhood or whatever is way more common than I realized. And by the way, I never thought about my childhood as dysfunctional. I sort of minimized it, rational it, and stuck it away until I had a great therapist who said, I think you need some work on healing trauma. That's a whole other story. But anyway, when Martha and I were writing the book, we realized that those of us that come from, you know, dysfunctional childhoods learn different things about ourselves. We have certain beliefs about ourself, and we have beliefs about other people that aren't always necessarily positive. And what we tend to do to manage our environments and try to create as much safety as possible is we adapt different strategies, behavior strategies, my strategy, my dad, who I think. And again, this is not about judging parents or people that take care of us, but it's about understanding that many of them generationally came from difficult past as well. So my dad had some issues with unpredictable rage, which as a little girl, it was very scary. It was very unsettling. And so I took it to mean that I was causing the anger. You know, that's what we do when we're little. And that was because I wasn't good enough. And so my strategies were about people pleasing and perfectionism. And, you know, many of us are in that category, but other people adapt different strategies. Some people use anger as a way of managing a sense of safety for themselves. Other people hide or try to stay at the radar or, you know, just try not to be noticed. And so anyway, when Martha and I were doing this work, we're like, this is so fascinating. There's so many of us that grew up with these challenging childhoods. You know, I wonder, what do we call ourselves? And so we did a little research, and there's really no name for the large number of people that are in this category. There's acoa, Adult Children of Alcoholics, which, by the way, is a fabulous support group. I went through that, was a part of that for many years, but it was very focused on growing up with addiction. And so we decided to create our own acronym, which is asdp. And what it stands for is adult Survivor of a damaged past. And it basically means if you kind of take that apart, the A for adult is really all about realizing that, you know, when we go into our jobs today, our careers, our professional environments, we think we're going in as our full, you know, fullest functioning adult cells. And we are adults. But a lot of times things are happening in the workplace, which we'll maybe talk about later, that trigger us and immediately we go into all of our old strategies that we use when we're little, overachieving over people, pleasing over whatever. And it's just recognizing that we are adults and that we can understand the impact of our past, but it doesn't have to control how we behave in our present and future. As the S is Survivor, it's acknowledging that people can go through a lot of really very terrible things. To me, that word is a word of resilience. And also one of the things I talk about is that being an astp, you've got a lot of superpowers now. We are really good at reading rooms and seeing around corners and being prepared for chaos. You know, there are a lot of things that we're really good at. I can distinct angry people a mile away. That's one of my superpowers. So the S is survivor. It's resilience. ASD is the D stands for damage. And for me that's really about coming from a dysfunctional or damaged path. But it's also the fact that we're many of us carrying deep within our hearts damaged beliefs about ourselves and that those are beliefs are causing a lot of pain and misery. And then the P at the end. ASDP P is about the past. These happen in the past, but they don't need to continue to guide us. But we need to become aware of the impact of our past in order to break free of living what I call the unconscious wounded career path, which is a really distrustful place to be where I was for really 30 years. So that is ASTP, our own acronym. We created it.

We hope you're enjoying this episode. If you'd like to start building habits and integrating the Hardwired for Happiness practices into your life, come check out Rewire our program on the Happiness Squad website. Rewired contains 35 minute micro practices that can help you truly build habits for a happier, healthier life. Filled with more love and meaning. The program uses the science of habit formation and the power of community to support you in moving from knowing to doing to being. Now back to the episode. I Love it. And in fact, you know, I might even say, Susan, it's not most, it's not some. I think it's all. It's all because all of us have. No matter how, you know, well intentioned. Our parents are at some stage of everyone's life. So friends, think about this. Do you remember a moment growing up where either your parents or forget about your parents, maybe you don't go back that past and you've repressed that memory. Think about if you have children, have you ever to a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 year old, raised your voice or said, don't do that? I remember I've done that so many times with my son, you know, I mean, I do it even now, but like for sure, when you were younger, you know, hey, he's about to put his finger into the power socket and I'm like, don't do that. Stop. Now imagine for a moment take yourself back to his psyche. For him, you are the sole provider. You are protector. You are massive. Even in size. You're a giant. Right. Imagine the effect of that. And we take that on.

We do.

When we are tired or upset at work and exhausted and your boy, your son or your daughter, they come to you and they say, daddy, daddy, daddy. And you're so tired, you're like, just let me be. Imagine that we're pushing something away and all of a sudden they might internalize it as, hey, like I'm not wanted, or maybe there is something else going on. So we all go through. These are human experiences. But what I love about what you're saying is we don't have to be defined by it. If we become aware, right? If we become aware one, the experience and hold it with compassion versus judgment for ourself and the parents, because they've all, you know, it's not all, but in bad intent. I think second is recognize and become aware of your own way of coping with it.

Right.

You know, I love Karen Horney's work, which we use a lot in our work. Move against, move away, move towards. Where do they come from? They come from, again, prior experiences and our coping mechanisms. It's not that one is better than the other, but it's. Are you being choiceful about where you want to be? Which is. I also love this about, you know, past is the past. Don't let that define you.

Yeah. Well, the other thing too, to build on your point is you may not have experienced big trauma, but maybe some of the smaller ones.

Micro traumas. Yeah.

Yeah. I learned that, you know, a Lot of little micro traumas chronically can actually equal a big T trauma. That was one of the interesting things I learned. The other thing that I know is that you maybe didn't experience any of those 10 aces, but to your point, you probably still have some of these things underlying your belief about yourself. And if for some reason, you ended up with, you know, no limiting beliefs that are holding you back, you're probably leading some of us who are, and you're working with us, you know, so whether, you know, you can put your finger on a specific adverse childhood experience or not knowing the concepts that you and I are talking about today, I think can be invaluable to anybody. And while they talked about 10 aces, there are so many other things that can happen to people. Bullying, poverty, discrimination, you know, and all those micro traumas as well. Well, it's just.

Yeah. And just suffering in life, you know, that's what. What people go through.

Yep.

And forget about, you know, intergenerational trauma that one of our guests, one of my deep teachers and mentors, Amy Fox and Thomas Hubel, talk about, you know, how do we actually heal collective trauma.

Yes.

So, Susan, I, as I said, firmly believe I think 100% of people are ASDP, but there'll be enough people who will say, no, no, no, that's not me.

Yeah.

So, you know, give us some tips on what might be the science that can let somebody know that maybe they are working with or they themselves are an asdp. And how does it actually show up?

Yeah, that's a really good and important question. And, you know, I think the first place I would start with is that if you're experiencing a lot of negative emotion in the workplace because of things other people are doing, things they're not doing, things they're saying or not saying. And you're going home at the end of the day and are replaying the day and you're beating yourself up or you're ruminating over what you should have done or could have done. And, you know, the. What I would describe as painful emotions emerge. And it can be a lot of different emotions that people have. Fear. You know, I think my boss is really mad at me. I think I'm gonna get fired. Anxiety. I feel anxious. I feel like I should have done it differently or we can't calm our nervous systems as this constant state of hypervigilance and anxiety. I was talking to someone recently. They said every night they feel crushing emotion from their experience. Crushing. They use that word. And so I think the, you know, Sort of a clue if you're in this, you know, the group of US ASTPs is that you're experiencing more feelings of. I put them in the category of painful or misery. For me it was anxiety, stress and worry. For other people, they use different words, fear, crushing, you know, those kind of words. So that's one thing. The other symptom, I guess, or the other clue is paying attention to the stories that you're telling yourself when things are happening that are triggering you at work. So another, you know, another clue is when, you know, if you and I are in a meeting and you interrupt me, for example, or I interrupt you, you know, on those 30 years, I would take that to mean that you didn't think what I had to say was important or smart. And in my head I'd immediately go on, I can't believe it. He thinks I'm stupid. So just catch yourself on the thoughts you're having. You know, that felt so disrespectful. He obviously doesn't respect me. We tell ourselves a lot of stories in our head which then, you know, our thoughts become our reactions become our behaviors. And you know, so if you find yourself overperforming, exhausted because you're trying to please everybody, you know, the, the perfectionist who can never feels like what they're doing is enough. Those are all symptoms or clues that you're probably in this group of US STPs and likely like me. What, what I didn't know this is, oh, this is the broken belief I had about myself when I was little was that everybody else got to decide my value, especially men in authority or masculine women. And my job at work was to be as people pleasing and as perfect as possible so that I would get or earn that validation. And I mean, that's what I thought. That's what that was the belief system I had. So if you're having thoughts like this, then you're definitely an asdp, which is great because there are a lot of us in that group and there are so many different things. So one of my, my, my favorite famous quotes Martha and I have in the book is damaged is not doomed. So I felt like a hamster on a wheel, you know, go to work, exhaust myself, wear myself out, beat myself up, drink chardonnay, go back and do it the next day. And fortunately I had a big wake up call thanks to a God spiritual awakening, literally where I realized one of the biggest career insights I had was that alcohol no longer had a place in my life. And actually this April, I will celebrate 20 years of sobriety.

Congratulations.

Thank you. So you know, if you're using unhealthy self soothing habits, gambling, drinking, food shopping, social media, alcohol, that's another clue. So those are some of the.

I love that. I love that. You know, we have a rewire program running in fact just at 11 o' clock today. 11 Mountain. So it's 2:40 now. The topic that we were discussing was numbing versus nurturing strategies to coping with stress.

God, that's perfect.

Right?

I should have had the course several years ago. I would have benefited from that course.

Right. But it's beautiful. You know the other one, Susan, that I'm just curious about is the other sign that I think exists. You tell me if you agree with it, is there's so many people who have this fear of actually disconnecting.

Absolutely.

Right. At vacation, in the evenings you tell them, you know, can you? And they have all kind of rationale for it. Oh my God. No, no, no. You know, I have to have the phone next to me and the first thing I check in the morning is the phone. Why? Well, because what if somebody needs me? That for me is I think a core symptom of you. Nobody needs you more than your family.

You know what, it's one of the reasons why I'm doing this work. It was part of my. Why was that? I was so focused on work that I worked all the time and when I wasn't at work, I was home from work. I would be worried about work and the outcome for me, which is one of the biggest costs that I paid for not being aware of this, was unconsciously neglecting my own sons when they were growing up. I was not there for them emotionally. And I get choked up every time I talk about it because I'm so grateful that we have good relationships now. But it breaks my heart that my oldest son was parenting my youngest son. My ex husband, you know, he did the best he could, but I'm the mom and I was not emotionally aware or conscious of anybody else's needs but my desperate need to be validated and that is not a way to live a career. So that's another year. I 100% agree that you're being completely connected to and constantly on for work, which takes all of your focus and energy and love away from all the things that you should be focused on.

Constantly hustling for your worth out there.

That's. Hustling. That's a good word. Yeah, yeah, right?

Yeah. No, it's. I'm so glad you know It's. I'm glad of your relationship. And, you know, that's the beauty of this. And I also loved it. You talked about adult survivors of a damaged past. Every moment that we are alive is an opportunity to heal. It's an opportunity to repair. It's an opportunity to renew. Yes, right. And that's really what you talk about, you know, with. Yes, you missed that time, but, hey, you're still alive.

Well, and we've got a really good relationship because they both have done some good work as well. But I'm very blessed that we do because it would have been easy for them to write me off. I was just thinking, though, you know, I've spent a lot of time talking about what I call the unconscious wounded career path, which is the path of being completely disconnected from your experiences when you were little to how you were showing up at work. And one other symptom to know if this is affecting you is that your reactions to things at work seem much bigger than the moment. So we make them very big. And that while damage is. Is not doomed. So that's part of the message. The other phrase I like to say is the rest of your life is yours. Because what we can learn how to do is step off that unconscious wounded path of, you know, interacting with people, having conflict, which we call bumper car moments, and getting triggered emotionally and going into these spirals down there are lots of. And I love. I want to learn more about your programs on the habits, because that's. I'm sure there are habits that I can be embedding in the work that I'm doing. But what I do is I teach people how to step off that unconscious wounded career path onto the conscious healing career path. And that in that there is a method to be able to do that, there are practices that you can do to learn how to self regulate, to learn how to understand what's going on. So I want to make sure people hear there's a lot of hope here.

No, I wanted. That's where I want to go to next. So first, you know, Susan, talk to me a little bit about. So we've talked a lot about the unconscious. You know, the unconscious biases the unconscious, you know, actions. We take that asdp. It's important to be aware of it because till, you know, there's a problem, what we are going to talk about now is irrelevant. Right. Because you're not open to it.

Yep, you're right.

So if you are at this point going like, wow, this is so me, or I might have some of this, talk to us a little bit about what's the opposite, what is the conscious healing career path and how do you show up differently here?

Yeah, so the conscious healing career path is, you know, conscious. This is sort of, this whole state of consciousness is so key in the work is becoming aware of the connection between what you believe about yourself from the past, understanding the behavior, strategies you used in the past, and starting to look at how those are affecting you in your professional or career, professional experience or your career. And you know, in my longer course, my six week self study course, I teach people, I have exercises to help them walk through, you know, moments at work when they get triggered, what's coming up for them and you know, what is there a limiting belief that's affecting you here? How is it connected to what happened to you when you were little and starting to understand that there is a connection. I believe that a lot of things happen when we're young and that having trauma in our past absolutely affecting our career experiences. And so it's just helping people to make that connection. And you're right, people have to understand the pain before they're interested in finding the potion, you know, the, the support for how that, how to do it differently. And what I have found is that we get most triggered emotionally at work in interaction with other people. When there's some kind of conflict, something happens. And most of us want to avoid conflict at all cost. But I believe that conflict is a huge catalyst to healing. It's in those moments of discord where we can actually learn how to understand what we're doing, why we're reacting this way, what's causing us to feel dysregulated, what, you know, what's going on. And then there are methods to process the emotion. Dr. Ed Tronick and Dr. Claude have an amazing book called the Power of Discord. And they really talk about those moments of discord with other people, those conflicts. What Martha and I love to call bumper car crashes, like we just had a bumper car crash, are actually opportunities for reconnection with other people and reconnection with ourselves. And before we can begin even doing that, though, we have to pay attention to the emotion that's going on inside of our bodies, which of course I know, you know, the book the Body keeps, keeps the score, all the things that we've experienced. We probably don't have time to get into all the brain science around what's going on in our brain are the, the, you know, the stem of our brain, the, the emotional part of our Brain has no memory of time. And so if something's happening today in the workplace and it triggers an old emotion from your childhood, your brain thinks you are right back to where you were when you were little. And you go right into fight, flight or freeze.

Absolutely, absolutely, yes.

The opportunity. And so that's what happens at work a lot. We see a lot of fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Fawn, people pleasing. That's me. We see a lot of fighting, we see a lot of people hiding. We see all these behaviors. And so there are practices using sound, movement and breath to process the emotion, to feel the emotion, and to become regulated again. So you've got to, in order to create choice about how you're going to respond, you've got to process that emotion. There's lots of techniques, so I think.

We should go there next. But it is such a powerful and important element, friends. So connect with this. Right. So think about the reactive structures, how through which we show up at work. You know those moments of triggers when we say the trigger is out there, that person triggers me, that situation triggers me, that dynamic interaction triggers me. Know that the trigger is actually you.

Yep.

All that the other is providing is a stimulus. But the trigger is you. Right. The journey is from within. The journey to recognize, discover and make a shift. And it's not easy to do it unless you actually work on regulating your emotions. And down regulating from a fight, flight, freeze, amygdala, hijack moment to one which is grounded. So, Susan, what tips would you have? Maybe give two, three ways in which if you find yourself in a triggered state, heart racing, blood rushing, recognizing that I'm getting clammy hands or, you know, tight back or whatever it is your version of when you notice you're triggered. What are some ways you invite people to downregulate, to come back to a place where they can consciously choose a different way?

Yeah, for me, it's an elephant on my chest. Yeah. So a couple things. One, and I learned this from Celine dacosta, the amazing Celine, is to recognize that when you're getting triggered by somebody else, rather than focusing your judgment and anger on them, to think of them as a gift, because they are a gift that is helping you look at and realize that you have some unresolved emotion that needs processing. This totally changed my world when she taught me this. And you know, we immediately go into, you know, I'm just like I did with the pirates. I was blaming them, judging them, et cetera. But actually now when somebody, when I get triggered by somebody, I Think to myself, okay, this is an opportunity to look inward about what. What's the gift here? You know? So that's the first tip. Second tip. And also there's another great book by Debbie Ford called the Dark side of the Light Chasers. That's really good. Which helps us understand other people and their impact on us. So that's the first step, is thinking of the person as a gift. Secondly, it's really important, as I was starting to say, to really process out whatever emotion is going on. It could, you know, if I'm upset and I'm feeling sad, I may just need to go into a room and cry.

Yeah, don't hold it in.

Don't hold it. Feel the feelings, feel the emotions. And there's lots of techniques for doing this. Another good technique is, you know, is expressing yelling or screaming or one time I was singing really loudly. But just sound, movement of breath, some activity. I call it creating choice. You can't get out of that emotional state until you create choice by taking care of your own emotions and coming back into a state of regulation. The second step. Well, so first of all, they're a gift. Second step is supreme choice. Third step is really thinking about, what do I want to do in this moment to elevate my action rather than going into my old strategies, what can I do to really elevate how I show up in this moment? And it really depends on the moment. What makes sense to elevate your action. I can think of a situation one time where I was really triggered by a friend, and I decided that the way I was going to elevate my action was first, to recognize it was a gift. Secondly, to realize I had to process some emotion because it was really pushing on some things that I was being abandoned. And. But then I got to the point where I could elevate my action to say, you know, I'm going to be okay. I hope this relationship continues, but if it decides to go a different way, then I'm okay with that. Rather than getting into a fight with the person, that's really key. And then finally, what's really key is when we do something differently. When we slow down this process and we elevate our. We process that emotion, we elevate our reaction. We've got to celebrate. Because the act of celebrating this is all the research on positive psychology is actually an act of integrating this new way of responding and thinking into our neural pathways, into our identity. And so it's pretty. I call it the Rapid Power Reclaim rpr. My method That I teach is really straightforward. And there are ways to do and use breath in a meeting. If you're getting really emotionally triggered. There are lots of breathing techniques that can calm you down, you know, so that you can practice all different ways to create that choice by processing and managing your emotion, sound, movement and breath.

I love rapid power of reclaim. It's beautiful. Yeah. And celebration is the heart of the rewire. Every micro practice, celebrate is how we get it. You remind our brain to go for that dopamine and actually form those neural pathways. So I love it. So recognizing how does the person who is triggering you or the situation or the obstacle, what is the gift? How can it be a gift versus how can it be a curse? It doesn't change the thing, but it might just give you choice to recognize right. There are no rights and wrongs and goods and bads. Processing out the emotion. I love that. Friends, I think you've heard it on our podcast before. Emotion is energy in motion. So unless you let the energy pass through you in whatever way it is, maybe it's crying, you know, tears rolling down, maybe it is just yelling it out. If you don't pass it, there is very little. Because that's what's going to hold you, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Really looking to. You talked about elevating my action or what's my big intention here? What is the, you know, the bigger picture that we are going for? And I love this notion of, you know, making that choice and celebrating. I love it. So very structured approach rpr, Rapid power of reclaim. Now, Susan, we've talked a lot about what individuals can do to kind of shift from this ASDP to more of a conscious healing part. But it feels like till now our conversations lot around the individual. So talk to us. You know, you've been in senior HR roles at three or four of these really big companies. You know, once you awoke to this different way of being and recognizing the power, talk to me a little bit about how you started to integrate some things into organizations that can actually support. Support people in their own healing journey rather than a source of harm.

So it's an excellent question, which is what's the organizational system around all of us showing up in the workplace? So what I've been blessed to be able to do with great support from my current company, is to be able to share my keynote where I talk to employees. And I've done this all over the world, many different global teams sharing with them the concepts of healing at work and how it shows up at work. And the impact has been profound because the leaders that have been through it, the executives who've really created the opportunity for me to do this with their teams, have shared that they felt they've raised the EQ of the entire leadership team, understanding the principles of healing at work. Another senior executive talked about how he made connections in the keynote about his own leadership behavior that he'd never made before. And so I had the privilege, I've had the privilege of doing that with, with many hundreds of people. In fact, last week, I think the group I talked to was like 4,000 people calling in for the meeting. So in several different countries. The other thing that I got permission to do is with my courses is to be able to offer my course to anybody in the company, of course, of no charge. And then also that anybody that wanted my book, I'd give away my book. And so that was how I started to create the momentum in my current company, by educating in particular leaders and leadership teams and then their teams around these practices. And it's been a phenomenal journey.

Well, listen, Susan, I am so grateful. Thank you. I know you and I could go on and on about this and maybe we have you back for a round two, but I so appreciate you spending time with us, sharing your insights. We leave all the places where people can find the book and the course, but a deep gratitude from me. Thank you for spending your valuable time with us and our listeners.

Thank you. I loved it. I could keep talking to you for hours. It's just been such a privilege. Thank you so much.

Wonderful. That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love and meaning. Please consider leaving us. Review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember, happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week. Sam.