Define Your Purpose

You can't pursue purpose. You can't say, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? What's my purpose? You know, the only thing that comes from that anxiety, right? Anxiety. You get like so worked up. So, no, you don't look for purpose. What you get curious about when you sit down by yourself is, you know, you gain curious on the four ingredients that will help you find your purpose. So you get curious about, hey, point number one, what do I really love? What are truly things that I'm passionate about? I can go back in my life and look at my three to five formative times, formative experiences that I was in flow I loved. You know, I might have done something really hard, but I'm really proud of, go back and say, what about that experience was that I loved? Was it the team? Was it the task? You know, was it a goal that had never been achieved before? Was it some creative expression of something that, you know, it had been there, but I elevated it to a different space?

Hey there, friends. Welcome to Happiness Squad. This is the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock your full potential by mastering the art and science of happiness. We bring on the best leading experts on these topics to help you unlock your true potential and live with more joy, health, love and meaning in your life. Your host is no other than a star combo of Ashish Katari and Anil Ramjiani who are both on a mission to provide you with an unfair advantage to be the masters of your experience and leaders in your industry. Get ready to be moved, challenged and enlightened on this podcast. It may change your life. Thanks for being here and joining the squad.

Hi, Happiness Squad. I'm excited to be with all of you today and honored to be with Ashish as we continue to explore his book Hardwired for Happiness chapter by chapter. You know, I connected with Ashish during COVID lockdowns and our passion for helping individuals unlock their own potential and find true meaning in their happiness, health, love and life immediately became clear. You know, Ashish has written Hardwired for Happiness and he's laying out nine practices incredibly, simply and beautifully. What I find unique is how Ashish takes what he has learned and and how he shares several exercises chapter to chapter that can change our lives in just a few minutes a day to help us lead a more purposeful life. Today, we continue with practice two. Define your purpose. Do you feel stressed, burnt out, disillusioned, or even undervalued at work? You know, following Covid, we're hearing stories around the world of how this recent exodus, known as the Great Resignation, or equally worse, quiet quitting, is happening across the industry. Do you know? I can answer yes to this question, but guess what? We're not going to stop there. By giving yourself time for introspection and leveraging several and exciting exercises Ashi shares, you can unlock your ikigai. What is that? Well, get ready to find out. Ashish dives into this and at the end of the cast he shares a quote that I assure you will change your life and unlock the meaning that you seek to take that next step in your journey. So join us as we talk through how we are all hardwired for happiness. Enjoy. Hey Ashish, how you doing?

I'm good, Anil. Just Thanksgiving's. Yesterday was Thanksgiving, so I'm feeling well fed, well nourished, well ensconced in beautiful love, spending time with my wife, my son, you know, exchanging Thanksgiving notes with friends. I'm feeling. I'm feeling very full.

Love it. You know, I am thinking about this when we eventually get to the practice on gratitude, I am going to tell you then. It's funny how we spend one year, one day out of the year to kind of express gratitude formally and have a nice big meal with family and friends when you almost think like you almost want to be celebrating Thanksgiving daily. Maybe not the food. I think the calorie intake, if we were celebrating Thanksgiving daily would be a bit too much. But we'll leave that one for the gratitude practice when we get there.

Yes, yes. No, for sure. Right. Listen, I think Thanksgiving is a, you know, it's something that I think, as you and I have discussed, can completely change our orientation. It changes our. What we actually notice. We start to notice, you know, and that's what it's about. But let's, let's talk about purpose today.

Indeed. So when we last met last week we were talking about self awareness and so now we're shifting into purpose. And you know, as I was going through this practice, the chapter, Ashish, I just wanna say I love how you laid this out. I just feel that you really allowed it to demonstrate how there's a lot of inner and outer work that can be done. And I actually, when I started to go through the exercises and I was reading about you and how you use the exercises, that's actually what stood out for me, is how you've created hardwired for happiness almost on the outcome of you did these purpose exercises. And here we are. We wouldn't be here without it. And that's one thing you shared with me time and time again is aneel. It's all about unlocking meaning, the why. And so I guess maybe I want to start with asking you, how was this the expected outcome for you when you initially started going through and developing these exercises and going through these exercises yourself that hardwired for happiness or helping others would actually be the outcome?

Yeah, no, it's a great question. Look, the complete, honest answer is absolutely not right. As I shared in my priority our prior couple of episodes with the listeners. You know, this was the title of the book wasn't even actually hardwired for apnus. The title of the book was from fear to freedom, A journey from within to live your best life. And it wasn't meant to be a journey for others. It was meant to be a journey for me. Right? It was. It was my journey from within that I was on. Because, you know, despite having so much success and having checked off all the boxes of what you would call a successful career, right, Love, fame, power, you know, money, right. I was, I was not happy, right? I was, I was not flourishing. I was actually having bouts of anxiety. I was stuck in fear. And I didn't even know fear or what, anxiety or what. And I had decided to turn inwards to kind of really understand and study about how can I flourish? How do people flourish? What does spirituality, psychology and neuroscience tell us about the art of flourishing? And that's the journey that I had been on to kind of just work on myself. And as part of that, I think purpose obviously was a big part of the discovery. And I read a lot, tons, tons, tons of great work out there by so many people because this topic of purpose and meaning is so relevant in our lives, right? And it was actually through one of the tools, the mind map exercise that I highlight in my book that I actually came up with a set of options that could all point towards, you know, my ikigai, right? How I could live into my ikigai, how I discovered it, how I moved into it, and how I actually re pivoted in my life from the work that I was doing to doing work that was closer to what, you know, filled me with joy, things I love, things I'm good at, right? Things that the world needs. So we'll talk a lot about it, but it was an outcome of it, but it wasn't what I was solving for. And once I did it and it actually started to work for me, I absolutely wanted to share that because I hear that all the time a lot of people are like, yeah, I don't know what my purpose. I don't know what my meaning in life is. I have no idea how to get there. And I was like, look, it helped me, and I want to be able to use this to help others. And I've now, since then, you know, over 100 people have tried these techniques, and they all come away with breakthroughs, insights. I'm really excited, you know, for people to take this because I think this can. This can help so many people.

So when you. This resonates incredibly for me. I mean, I mentioned to you, my wife and I are having conversations on what is our purpose, you know, the work that we're doing, does this mean to us what we hoped it would mean, what we think it means? When you. When you come across people and they. They say that to you, like, you know, Ashish, I don't know what my purpose is. How do you initially, you know, and I'm sure our listeners are probably thinking the same thing. How do you initially approach that with them? Is it an easy question for you to answer or do you have to almost take a step back and go, hang on, before I answer this, I need to hear a little bit more from them.

So I don't think anybody can answer that question other than the person themselves, first of all. Right. Nobody externally. Also, you can't find the answer outside. You know, there's a beautiful. You know, one of my favorite persons is Viktor Frankl.

Yes.

And he, you know, said this beautiful quote in his book, man's Search for Meaning, right. Where he says, you cannot ask life what your meaning of life is. Right. Something to that effect. I mean, it was beautiful. He said, ultimately, here's. I'll read it for you. I just. Look, ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize it is he who is asked, in a word, each man is questioned by life, and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life, to life. He can only respond by being responsible. It is from his man's search for meaning. So I truly think, you know, this is. I fundamentally believe in it, right. That, you know, the purpose and meaning for each one of us is unique and it can actually shift over our times. Right. And it doesn't need to be, you know, it doesn't need to be static. It can mean many different things, but we actually have to find it. And I do think it is important to find it because all the research, Adele, points to how important this is. You know, we know from research, you know, this was, you know, extensively has been done. Right. We know from research that those who are happier, they have a meaning. They have. They're living for something bigger than themselves. Those who have purpose have higher mental and physical health. Right. They have, they are happier, they're long, they live longer. In fact, this whole concept of ikigai that we talk about, actually, you know, it's a very old concept, but it really got popular after Dan Buettner's work on the blue zones, you know, places where people live the longest. And the fact that people were living, you know, they had a meaning. They had a meaning in life. They had their. Ikigai was one of the biggest drivers. You know, these are places like Okinawa, you know, Sardinia, in Greece, there's a couple of places in California. Consistently, they found that those who had purpose lived longer and had much higher life satisfaction. Right. You know, Rush Medical College did this research and it showed that frankly, those who have purpose in life are 2.4, you know, or rather those who don't have purpose in life up 2.4x likely to get Alzheimer's. Right. So purpose is so, so important. I think we have to find, you know, we have as uncomfortable it is to say, I don't know the meaning in my life, I don't know what my purpose is, or I am not living into my purpose. I think it is, it is one of the most important questions for people to wrestle down and not accept, not try and silence that voice that, that is, that is saying, hey, what are you really here for?

I love that. Because this is, I mean, part of self awareness is giving yourself space, right?

Yes.

And let's dive into ikigai because this is so, just so you know, Ashein, I may have never shared this with you, but during lockdown, when they finally opened shops, Anix and I went into a bookshop and she randomly picked up this book, Ikigai. And I'm like, what's this? And I, I open it up and I'm like, oh, this is actually quite cool. You know, maybe now's the time to share. For audiences who hopefully are younger than me, who've not heard of it. What exactly is ikigai? What does it mean? And how would you like to break it down? We can kind of maybe talk it through.

Yeah. So look, ikigai is this beautiful concept. You can imagine these four circles intersecting together. Right. It comes from a Japanese word. Iki means to live and gai means reason. Right. It's from the high end period. And the notion is that we all have an ikigai. And the ikigai is that point, that thing which is at the intersection of four key things. Circle one, what you love. Circle two, what you're good at, Circle three, what the world needs, and circle four, what you're willing to, what the world is willing to pay for. Right? So if you break that down, those four things together, if you find that, can you imagine how beautiful and powerful it can be? You're doing something that you love, that you're good at, which means you are continuously going to keep getting better at it. You're going to, you know, whatever you're going to do is going to be amazing. Higher chances of you being in flow if you're doing something you love and what you're good at. And by the way, if it is something that the world needs and is willing to pay for, you know, as you keep getting better and better at it, you will continue to earn the premium that you want. Right? I mean, work can fundamentally become a place you look forward to on Mondays because it is something, something you love and it allows you to make a difference in the world and earn a living that way. So unlike the existence of so many people today. You know, Gallup says only 30% of people are actually engaged at work. So they love what they do. Right? They're really engaged. It has meaning for them for a large number of people. That's not true. We found the same work when I was doing at McKinsey. So I think this notion of finding our ikigai, finding that beautiful thing that is at the intersection of these four is really, really powerful because it changes our whole life. We don't try and solve for work. Life balance, work and life just become integrated. And how should it not be an ill. Right? Work is what we do 30% of the time. The only thing we do more than work is sleep.

It's crazy.

And so why would we accept spending the majority of our waking hours, an activity that takes up a majority of our waking hours, to not be an activity that we absolutely love?

I mean, now we're two Indian guys, right? And I'm sure the, the stereotype with, with Indians is, you know, mom and dad told me I had to either become a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer.

Yes, right.

It was one of those three. Anything outside of that and you, you've obviously they've, they've gone wrong, they've made wrong decisions, you know, or you've made a wrong decision. I mean, how do, how do people who come from those, those backgrounds that level of upbringing who aren't given the choice to find their purpose or even to think about it, or encouraged to nurture it. How would we share this with our listeners to say, hey, it's never too late to really pick up and learn about Yurikigai? Like, how would you approach that?

Yeah, look, I mean, first of all, I think we've got to break this. You know, I was one of those, right? I became an engineer. But I think we have to separate professions from, you know, calling and meaning as two separate things. Because there is, you know, there is a huge move right now, right? The Great Resignation. People are quitting their job in droves. You know, there are. People are. I mean, there is. There's also this whole quiet quitting thing going on where a lot of people are, like, you know, they're not, you know, I'm gonna still keep working, but I'm not. I'm gonna do the bare minimum. And, you know, I would separate. There's a difference between profession, any profession, right? Profession is what? It's something that, you know, it plays to your strength, and, you know, you get paid for it, right? So engineer, right? You might become an engineer, you might become a doctor. You might not enjoy. You might not enjoy it. It might not be something you love, but my invitation always to people is to say the following. And then, look, if you have a job, right? If anybody has a job, it doesn't matter what it is, you train to be an engineer, you train to be a doctor, you train to be a lawyer. If you have a job, it probably has three out of the four elements of ikigai in place for you, correct? You know, it has to, in some shape or form, leverage your strength at least somewhat. Otherwise you'd probably be fired, right? It has to be something that people are willing to pay you for. You're getting a salary. I mean, nobody would pay you if they didn't care for what you did. And, you know, if they're paying you a salary and the fund and the company hasn't gone bankrupt, you are doing something that the world needs in some shape or form, right? Your service is part of a bigger offering into, you know, whatever that customers are paying for, because it's the customer's money that then translates into money for the company that they pay you.

Yeah.

So what does that tell you? That means that at least three out of the four things in ikigai you already have in place if you have a job, right? So how do you find ways to kind of introduce and integrate what you Love.

Yes.

Into where you work.

Yes.

And there are so many different ways in which we can do it. Right. Oftentimes we are actually ourselves afraid of actually bringing it up, or we have these stories that, you know, this is my job. There is very little flexibility. You know, anybody who works in a big Fortune 500 company or even any company, even smaller companies, even more smaller companies. No company can exist today. You know, we're no longer craftsmen. Right. Where, you know, your father was a blacksmith, and you're a blacksmith. So if you don't like blacksmithing, you're screwed. That's not true today. Right. Any company has sales, marketing, finance, operations, customer service, all different things. You know, they're actually doing something that's. That's being used as something to make a difference in the world. If we truly look at what we love to do and find ways to kind of use our conversations with our teams, with our companies to move into things that might be more, you know, that might be more integrated with what we are especially good at and what we love to do. I think people can integrate meaning into any profession, and part of it requires us to reframe what we're doing and step out from the dance floor onto the balcony to see the bigger landscape in which the work we're doing is making a difference. So I'll give you an example. If you might be a person who's working in a factory line making pharmaceuticals, you might say, well, I'm just here. I manage this machine. But you can take a big pivot back and say, yeah, but the machines are making medicines that are actually healing the world. And, you know, that is something that is meaningful for me. Right. Or, you know, you might be somebody who loves to coach, and you might say, yeah, today I don't have an opportunity to poach. Can I actually find ways to coach others and infuse meaning that way? Right. They're junior people. They're younger people than me. I've worked here for a long time. Can I coach them or, you know, can I mentor, you know, people who might be older, who might be more senior around? Hey, what does it take to kind of really motivate and work with kind of a millennial workforce? Right. So it's about us finding ways to integrate what we love and what we are good at into our jobs. Because already three out of the four things are in place.

No, I'm with you. And I. I don't want to take this down a path of, what if that fourth isn't there? And because, again, I guess like, to your point, there's your role in your profession and then there's your meaning in life, your purpose in life. So I almost feel like, not to say we go down one, but I do want to maybe talk then a little bit more about the passion circle. Right. So you say three out of the four, let's say.

But sorry, if I may interrupt you. I think for me, I actually do think a lot of people and I get this question asked a lot. Well, this is what I do. Why do I have to find meaning at work?

Yes.

Why can't I just do this and find meaning? And my point is, yes, absolutely, a lot of people find meaning outside work. They get involved in nonprofits. They actually volunteer. They donate. But my point is a very simple one. Work is, again, what you do. 30% of our lives are spent working. Why would you not want to work on something that is meaningful to you? Why would you not want to infuse meaning where you work? Why only do it part time in your free 1 to 2 hours? Why not actually transform that 8, 10, 12 hours that you work and find meaning in that? Infuse what you love. Leverage your strengths.

Are you enjoying the show so far? Let me ask you a few questions before going back. Have you ever wondered why so many of us struggle with stress, anxiety and burnout and feel stuck in life? Heck, maybe you're going through this right now. Well, the reason for this lies in the evolutionary biology of our brains, which are hardwired for fear. It's part of the reason why our team named this podcast Happiness Squad. It serves as a reminder that happiness is what really matters and that we are in this together. And that is why we are so excited to share with you a resource to help you on your journey. One of our hosts, Ashish Katari, launched a book, Hardwired for Happiness and it is a number one Amazon bestseller. When you get access to this book, you will discover nine secular practices that can change your life and are backed by scientific evidence from psychology and neuroscience. Learn how you can integrate Hardwired for Happiness practices in every part of your life to unlock your best self, regardless of how busy you are. Shift from knowing to doing to being with a range of journaling, meditation and group coaching exercises, and so much more. Go to www.happinesssquad.combook to get access right now. We also have bonuses on the page that you don't want to miss. Once again, www.happinesssquad.com book and now back to the show.

Well, what if they're not able to do that. What if they struggle to find meaning in their work? What if they struggle to find what they're passionate about in the work that they do and they're not able to take that step back to give themselves that space in order to go.

So I would say if they have put in, you know, scale of 70 to, you know, let's say on a 1 to 100 effort, okay, 100 is all eff. Zero is no effort, right? Zero is. I just complain I don't have meaning in work and I look for other ways to find meaning or enjoy life or whatever. Right? But this is, you know, this is the reality for when we did this research at. When we, I did this research at McKinsey, right, as part of. With my colleagues. And what we found was 70% of employees said that sense of purpose is defined by work. Okay? So 70% of people, the sense of purpose is defined by work. But then we discovered an interesting dichotomy. When you talk to executives, 85% of the executives find that, yes, they find meaning, right? They feel their life has meaning. Their work has meaning. You know what that number is for frontline employees? 15%.

Geez, man. Wow.

Okay, so only one in six finds their work meaningful, yet 70% think work is a big part of how they find meaning in life. So that's my first data point of why I say we've got to figure it out. And so, and between 0 to 100, if you had to put your effort into figuring it out, because, you know, you and I know of several people who will say my work has no meaning, but I'm just going to still keep doing it because it gives a paycheck. And I'm just afraid if I don't have a paycheck, how am I going to sustain my life? So I'm just going to put up with being unhappy because I don't know what else I will do or if I'm even good at it and all of that, right? I don't want to upset, quote, unquote, the apple cart. The economy is about to go into a downturn. Do I really want to take the risk right now? All of those things, I'm just going to put my head down. I'm just going to all that. So if you want to put an effort to actually shift and find meaning and infuse meaning into what you do every day because you're convinced because of all the reasons I gave you about how important it is to actually live a meaningful life, to actually have purpose. I would say put 70% of the energy into infusing meaning where you work. Again, because we spend one thirds of our life at work, you know, most of our waking hours are doing working, so why would we not try? Now look, I'm not saying. And the reason I say 70% is because I think oftentimes it requires you to put more effort. And I always say it is much harder to start from scratch when you have nothing. All four elements are out there. Because, you know, the other issue I find is most people actually don't know what they want. They don't know what they love and how they can translate what they love into something commercial that'll get them paid. So, you know, it's a hard process, but I would say put 70% of your effort into infusing meaning into where you love. But if you've done everything, you've had the conversations, you've talked to your boss, you've talked to the boss's boss, you've kind of talked to different colleagues, you know, you've tried to take initiative, nothing is working. Nothing is working. You continue to find day to day, you know, just something you have to put up with. Then I would say then truly take the time to, you know, put some of the tools I write about to rediscover, re pivot, find something else, create a career that is meaningful, that is at the intersection of what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs and willing to pay for. And I found this tool called Mind mapping. Right. It was actually I found it in the work done by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans around, you know, they're two amazing people. They created a course called Designing youg Life at Stanford Design School. And it's all around how do you design your life? How do you use our design thinking, you know, to actually create a career, create a life that actually has meaning. Right. It's at the intersection of these things. I loved it. So I included, you know, one of that tools into my work. It helped me a lot anil to your question. So then do the effort. And by the way, a lot of people, I'll tell you, and this is where I think this is a two place world. And I'll say it for our listeners, to find purpose, you have to turn inwards. Point number one. Okay? But just sitting and meditating on what's my purpose isn't going to get you there either.

Exactly.

So what it requires is a constant tune in words, look into what you love, experiment, have conversations. So it's a being doing dual state of constantly trying, trying, trying to, and please, please, please. If I can again reiterate, don't quit your job to go do this. The most successful people who are able to do this actually pivot. So keep doing what you're doing. Find that space for quiet. Find the space where you can have the conversations, do a lot of experiments, have a lot of conversations with people who might be doing something that would be your equivalent of your ikigai and over time, pivot to that. Right. Only 5% of people are successful. If they just leave everything that they're doing and they're going to get there, you'll end up taking another job that just pays you because your money will run out.

And you're taking that baggage with you. You've not really cracked it. You're actually just finding an outlet as opposed to something that's really bothering you or really something you need to reorient towards. And I find that incredibly powerful. And I want to go back to what you just said about meditation. Won't help you figure it out. If anything, meditation helps you create space in order for you then to be introspective. In order for you then to reorient. In order for you then to move forward.

Exactly. And you know, it's a little bit the same as happiness. Remember in one of our prior episodes we talk about you can't pursue happiness.

Yes.

Happiness ensues by living a life where these practices are integrated. You know, purpose is the same. You can't pursue you purpose. You can't say, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? What's my purpose? You know, the only thing that comes from that. Anxiety. Exactly, right. Anxiety. You get like so worked up. So no, you don't look for purpose. What you get curious about when you sit down by yourself is, you know, you gain curious on the four ingredients that will help you find your purpose. So you get curious about, hey, point number one, what do I really love? What are truly things that I'm passionate about? I can go back in my life and look at my three to five formative times, formative experiences that I was in flow I loved. You know, I might have done something really hard, but I'm really proud of. Go back and say, what about that experience was that I loved? Was it the team? Was it the task? You know, was it a goal that had never been achieved before? Was it some creative expression of something that, you know, it had been there, but I elevated it to a different space. Go back to like Those ingredients of what you love. Like, you know, I do a lot of talk with, you know, sometimes with school kids and somebody said, what do you love? I said, I love gaming. I'm like, okay, that's great. Don't stop at gaming. What do you love about gaming? It's like, what do you mean what I love about? I'm like, what about? What kind of games do you play? It's like, well, I'd like role playing games. I said, okay, what about role playing games you love? Like, I get to solve problems, I solve missions. It has action, you know, things are changing. I said, good, so you love the freedom. You love problem solving. Go into that. You love doing that. What other places can you solve problems? Right now you are into something that you love. Like, I don't like role playing games, right. I like more action games, right? Like where you do have to get to a mission, then you're with the team, right? So again, get curious about what you love. It's the ingredients. Same with strengths. Get curious about what your strengths are. And don't just get curious about them. Ask people. Go do a, you know, we are strengths finder or go do the Gallup strengths finder. Get input, get input. Get to know your strengths. Right? Same with, you know, what are some topics in the world that you feel really passionate about Making a difference. The world needs it, right? There are so many crises in every level. Which one particularly appeals to you? Maybe it cuts, you know, maybe it's close to your heart because somebody personal has gone through that or you've gone through that. You know, for some people, it's mental health. Aging is a big part. You know, there's so many problems and troubles out there. Get curious about that, right? And then take those three things. And then now once you get curious and once you actually have some ingredients of, hey, I love these things. These are things I'm good at. Here's some problems that I think could make a big difference. I would then say start doing, right? So this mind mapping tool that I mentioned is such a powerful tool because you start with a word. And the way it works, anil is, and this is for our listeners, take literally one of the things that you love and that you're good at, okay? Mix them together, write up a word. Maybe it is helping others. That's what the mind map for me looked like. And now from that, what you're going to do is you're going to generate a set of circles around that central concept, okay? And they're all going to Be think about word association. So you're not like, it's not a cognitive. It's an exercise you can do in five minutes or less. And it's not cognitive. It's in terms of like, hey, what do I think? In what way can I do this? So, like, for me, it was help others. It's more coming up with words that are associated with that help others. And then you're going to do the same exercise for the circle above. So you'd have five or six circles, right, if you will, around that main concept.

Mm.

You're gonna do it around that. You're gonna do another set of exercises around the next set of circles. And what you're trying to do is get away and away from kind of the core kind of individual linear thinking into a lot of large abstract concepts. So I'll give you an example for me, Anil, like my help others. You know, I put six words around it. Coaching. You know, I could help people with coaching. Become your best self. Career change. Build connections, solve problems. Help recover from setbacks. Create good in the world. Those were my six circles around help others. Right? And then I said, okay, if I had to create good in the world, what are some things in which way I could do that, you know, And I had, you know, I could take a board seat at a company that's making a difference in the world and help them. I could launch an impact focused fund that is focused on, you know, directing investment from people into other companies that are making a difference. I could launch a company which is focused on impact, right? Making a difference in the world. I could launch a consulting firm because that's what I did before, right? I was in consulting to be able to kind of go do positive impact focused work rather than just work that increases profitability. And then I built on top of that, right? And I said, well, launch an impact company. What might be some things that are impactful, this that ties to what are those topics that I care in the world about? You know, and I wrote things like, you know, I can help underrepresented populations. I can help seniors. I can help people increase well being. I can help people address burnout. So it's this notion of kind of continuously using these three things. That's why I say just, you know, sitting doesn't help you. You actually use the sitting to come up with ideas around these core ingredients. And you put it into practice to come up with a bunch of ideas that could potentially help you put this into life. And then you choose the three to five Most important ones. And then you have conversations with people to say, hey, is there a there there here? Could I create a career that could help me do all of these and get paid for it? It's really important and get paid for it. Create a life that, in a way that I want to live. Because that's so important.

It's incredibly powerful. This is, I mean, so for those of you that have the book, you'll crack it open, you'll see figure three, his mind mapping output. And I'll tell you, it's, it's not as clean as this when you first start it. So to Ashish's point, it's not meant to be an over engineered process. But the fact that you said Ashish, you know, you started with one thing, I want to help others, and then you let it kind of expand from there. It's beautiful because you now have things on paper that you can then take and go, I'd actually like to do that. I wonder if I can do that in my role or I wonder if I can do that. And then as you mentioned, you can actually find an opportunity to speak to your manager, you can speak to your peer and say, hey, how do we, how do I do more of this? And I think I also want to just allude back to several of the practices you have in here are like you said, they're internal, they're inner, they're, they're about an individual. But you have practices here as well, exercises in here that allow, let's say a unit to come together. And you can actually do this as, as a group, as a, as a team.

Absolutely. And for all of our listeners, Right. Like if you are a leader. And a leader for me is anybody who leads a team of 14 or more people. Okay. If you are 14, eight, whatever, if you are leading a team, I would encourage you to actually have this conversation with your team and you do the same, you know, with, with, with the team in which, that you're a part of. Right. Which you might be reporting into. So there's an exercise, you know, this has been really, really well studied by Professor Jane Dutton. She's at Michigan Michigan Ross. She's a retired professor now. She's 72, I think. I talked with it a couple of weeks back. There is an exercise called job crafting which is really, really powerful by the way, if people want instructions on job crafting and the results behind it, they can also go to the Berkeley, there is a greater good center there. They make this practice available to them but really engaging In a job crafting exercise to say, hey, how do I craft my job to have more things that I love and more things that leverage my strengths, really infuse purpose at work. Really, really powerful. Every time I've done it with my clients and their teams, including my own team, the productivity increases, the engagement increases, the adaptability to changes increases, the creativity increases. Right. And so, you know, absolutely. I think as an individual, bring this concept to your manager. If you're a manager, take 30 minutes, 45 minutes in your next team meeting and start a conversation around how can we find purpose in what we are doing every day? It'll change your life. It'll change the results you drive. It'll change, that is, it'll change the lives of people you lead.

I mean, and Ashish, from your perspective, how young can you be to do this? Like, can you be, you know, young teen? Can you be someone that's coming out of college? Like, when is it ever too early?

Look, I think this is something that, so I am, I think, creating a program anil as we speak. I think middle school is a great place to start, you know, especially as you're going from middle to high school, at least start to get curious, you know, you again, you know, this can change over time. It's just basically saying, where am I going to put my energies? Right? Where am I going to put my energies? How do I put my energies into what I love, what I'm good at and you know, solves a problem that I care about, you know, in a way that it actually pays me, Right?

Yes.

Look, anxiety is a huge issue even in middle class right now, as is, you know, as in high school. And so we're actually, you know, I spoke to my son's school, actually middle school, around purpose and Ikigai, and it was really well received. I think they're spending a lot of time and I love the school that he goes to because they actually spent a lot of their curriculum looking at UN Sustainable Development Goals and saying what goals are actually meaningful to. Wow, right? Beautiful.

That's power.

Beautiful. And then saying what. What do love to do, right? And trying to form a linkage. So it can be pretty, you know, it can be early stages, but it's never too late to plant that seed. And then in high school, I'm creating a program that actually is going to start with people who are, you know, about to go into college and to say, hey, how do you spend your time in college? Rather than, you know, you're going to get there and you're just going to try and get a job that pays you. Right. How do you actually use the four years in college as a period of discovery? How do you use those four years to truly craft a career that would be something you love, that you're good at and solves a problem in the world and is actually something you can get paid for? Right. So that's the idea, Neil. And I think it's never too early to start, but I do think, I think middle school before that, I think it, you know, I think we're still starting to form our own identity, who we are, but it's never too early. But I can tell you it's also never too late. It's never too late. So I did a course, if you remember the lady I was in that course with, Veronica.

You know, Veronica love. Absolutely.

The 80 year old.

Yes.

Who said the world is filled with possibilities. So you asked the question, it's never too early. I'll tell you. It's never too late.

Yes.

To any of our listeners who are retired, who are in your 60s and 70s, you say, well, I've lived my life. Now it's too late. It's never too late. Every breath we take is a new breath. Every breath is new life. Every day is a new day. We can start. Every breath, every hour, every day, every week to start finding that reikigai and moving towards that.

I absolutely love that. Before we wrap up, Ashu, there's one thing I wanted to ask you about because this is something that I read that resonates with me. On page 60, you talk about fears that you have held inside your whole life. So just on the back of what you said, it's never too early and it's never too late. And knowing that we are almost sometimes just, you know, gripped by fear, but one thing that specifically stuck out is I am not enough. And that can be one of those fears.

Yes.

How would you guide our listeners who have that fear, who do feel they're not enough? How do you guide them? How? What would you suggest to say, hey, this is how you can overcome that? This is a. Maybe a paradigm shift.

Yeah, Look, I think three things. Three things, you know, and by the way, my own thinking on this is this is evolving, continuously evolving. The first one is know that this notion of not enoughness, not good enough, tall enough, smart enough, thin enough, young enough, old enough, healthy enough, whatever, we all have it, okay? So I think that's an important one to recognize. You can do this with. You can do this. You can ask 20 people, if you really did in the space and say, hey, you know, what is one of the fears that has kind of helped you get to, made you successful, but also holds you back. Everybody will have some version of, right, not loved, you know, fear of not being loved, fear of, fear of dying, fear of losing connection, fear of not being significant. There are a lot of different fears and people can read about them on my book, you can just search for most common fears a lot. Everybody has it. So the first important thing is recognize that if you have it, there is nothing wrong with you. It's a common humanity. Like we are united in this. Yes. You know, by saying I'm afraid doesn't make you weak, it actually makes you strong. Anything that you suppress only becomes stronger. Right. So step one is recognize. Step number two is it's your ego, it's our brain. You know, fear is actually good, right. Why is fear good? Because fear pushes us. Why is fear good? Fear is good because it tells us something. There is a danger out there, Right. You need to take action right now in lie to because there is something that's going to come get you. And if you take action, the chances are higher you're going to survive. Right. So neuroscience, our brains like fear because the fear is what pushes us and make sure you're going to survive as horrible as we feel. Right. So recognize that, that negativity bias, recognize that part of the brain that is kind of push you there. But when you recognize it, look for this is point number two. Step point number one is recognize. This is what we all face is shared humanity. Point number two, look for counteracting evidence. When have, you know, when you say I'm not smart enough, look for evidence in your past where actually you continuously got feedback that this was great, you solved something difficult. Right. And so really, really important, when we look for counteracting evidence, we start to kind of hold the, you know, start to kind of address this fear that holds us.

Yes.

And step number three, right. Really, really important. So one is look for counteracting evidence. And three is, you know, if you are afraid of something, actually spend some time thinking about what am I afraid of? And two things, two questions that I can engage with. What can I do right now to prevent what I'm afraid of from happening to happen. Right. Consciously spend the time on it rather than let it ruminate in your brain and your brain constantly going there. Set the time to write down what you're going to do, put it in your plan and then say, hey, I've Already done it. And point number two is if you can't prevent it from happening, have the second set write up something else to say. If my worst fear comes true, what can I learn from it? How would life be different? How big of a deal would it really be? So I think if you do those three things right, number one, know that this is a common fear, have a conversation with others so you feel normal. Number two, really look for counteracting evidence around a fear of not being enough, whatever that enough is for you. And point number three, if that not enough is being triggered because of something that's going to happen in the future, do both planning to prevent it, but also planning for in case it happens, what actions am I going to take? And is life going to be as bad as I really making it out to be?

It's almost the whole, don't put evidence where it doesn't exist. Rather the opposite. Take evidence that you have and put it where it does exist. From my side, I actually, this is going to sound a bit, maybe, I don't know, a bit different. I actually take out my CV and I'll actually look through it and I'll remind myself, what have I achieved in the past, even if it was like a decade ago or even five years ago, even a year ago. And you surprise yourself on what you've done and therefore, as you said, Ashish, what you are capable of doing. But hey, it's good to at least, like you said, spend time on it, don't ruminate on it, don't let it linger, don't let it drain you. Spend the time to really give space and do something about it.

Yeah. And Anil, you know, I wanted to end this episode with this reading by Marianne Williamson, because it's so beautiful, by the way, because we talked about the fear of not enough, right? Fear that we're not adequate. And, you know, that's oftentimes we don't even recognize that. But in this passage, she talks about a fear that is actually even deeper than that. And so I want to read this for our listeners. Marianne Williamson writes, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You're a child of God. You're playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We're all meant to shine as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. And you know what that light is that Marianne is talking about? It's our purpose. It's our ikigai.

Amen.

We have to find that because we need a world. This world needs people who have come alive and who are shining their light. And they're not living a life where I just have to put up day in, day out with my work so I can live outside, right? Every moment, every day, every hour, when we work, we should shine our light, lift others around us, lift ourselves around us, and make a difference in the world.

Ashish, that's an incredible note to leave on, and that was a beautiful gift. I know that at the end of each of these podcasts you like to either have folks we interview or even yourself gift our listeners something. And that's a quote that I am going to look up. And I actually want to have it with me because like you said, if I give myself that permission to shine my own light, I'm actually enabling others to share their own. And that's exactly what we need. Because the more people we have embracing and sharing their purpose, we know that step by step, that will make others unlock meaning in their life. And that's exactly the journey that we're all on. Thank you for sharing that. Any closing thoughts? Ashish?

No, I think we've. This was a great. This was a, you know, a great conversation. I always love chatting with you now. You know, to our readers, to our listeners. I'll tell you, most of these are unscripted conversations. So, like, bear with us as we kind of wander down different pathways, if you will. But listen again, I would strongly emphasize, you know, engage with the book, you know, search. I also have a couple of episodes on YouTube around this topic. But really engage, engage with your teams, engage with yourself. You owe it to yourself to truly transform your life by integrating meaning into it.

I love it. We'll make sure that we include those in the episode description so folks can find it. And as I mentioned, there are some amazing exercises that we didn't get to some concepts in the chapter. Pick it up, take a look, give them a try. I assure you it will make a difference in your life. Ashish, thank you again, mate, as always a pleasure.

My pleasure. Anil so good to speak with you.

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