Feedback: The Big "F Word"—Mastering the Science of Growth with Dr. Brodie Riordan

Welcome to The Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I'm Ashish Kothari, your host, and each week we'll dive deep with flourishing experts, changemakers, and executives to share best practices that can help you unlock higher performance through science-based interventions. Let's step together into the edge of what's possible and live, work, and lead with more joy, health, love, and meaning.

Feedback. The big F word.

We crave it. We fear it. We often get it wrong. Today, I'm joined by my dear friend Brody Riordan, a deep expert in the science of feedback and author of Feedback Fundamentals and Evidence-Based Practices. Brody has spent her career studying what actually makes feedback work. And the science behind how we give it, receive it, and use it to grow into the best version of ourselves. In this conversation, we unpack some of the most common mistakes people make, like over-functioning as a feedback giver, diagnosing intentions instead of sharing data, or slipping into a victim mindset that prevents us from getting the most out of the gift that feedback can be when we receive it. In this episode, Brody shared her powerful research-backed 4-part framework on how we all can learn to give and receive feedback more positively and more effectively. If you care about leadership, growth, relationships, or building a culture where people truly flourish through giving and receiving feedback, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.

Brody, it is so lovely to have you on our Flourishing Edge podcast, my dear friend.

Thank you, Ashish. I'm so delighted to be here talking about one of my favorite topics today.

Well, listen, you know, I don't know of anybody actually in the world who is as deep an expert on this topic of feedback, right? Your research is on it. You've spent so much of your career on this topic. You just re-released the second, you know, you're releasing the second edition of your book. On just the topic of feedback. And so I want to just open, Brody, with in your extensive period, right, studying this and helping teams get better at it, what are the most common mistakes that you find people make when it comes to feedback?

There are so many. It is, it is the big F word for a lot of people, feedback, whether you're on the giving end or the receiving end. And I think those are two important lenses. And I think throughout our conversation, I'll, I'll go back and forth between being the feedback provider and being on the receiving end. I think one of the biggest mistakes that feedback providers make is, I'm going to use the term over-functioning, where feedback providers feel the need to diagnose why someone is doing something, what their intentions were, to try to solve the problem for them, tell them what they should be doing, When really one of the most helpful things that a feedback provider can do to give someone truly useful, high-quality feedback is to share data. It's like holding up the mirror. Here are some things that I have observed about your behavior. Here's why that matters. Here are patterns that I've observed. And then give the other person space to process and autonomy to decide what to do with it. We could have a whole— we could spend our entire conversation talking about that, right? And the pros and cons of that and what that actually means in practice. But I think that that's one of the biggest opportunity areas for feedback providers. Let me think of this as sharing data with the other person, holding up the mirror, and then my work is done. When it comes to receiving feedback, I think the biggest mistake that I see people make is adopting a little bit of like a victim mindset, feeling like feedback is happening to them as opposed to feeling like they are an equal participant in the conversation. And this shows up in a few different places. One is simply accepting the feedback that the other person has provided at face value without asking questions to seek to understand more or gain clarity. The reality is most people are, are pretty unskilled at giving feedback. So no one does a great job of giving feedback. It's inevitable that there will be holes in what they share, or you might have questions. And then I think the other big challenge for people receiving feedback is not really understanding what's happening in their brain and expecting to instantly hear the feedback, make sense of it, accept it, and know what they need to do with it. And the reality is that takes time. Something else that we could spend a lot of of our conversation discussing.

Yeah, no, I love all those three. And especially the first one brings me back to a conversation I had on this podcast with Carol, Dr. Carol Robin. And Carol teaches Touchy Feely as the course at Stanford.

Yeah, famous course.

And she talked about this notion of, you know, staying on your side of the net.

Yeah.

Right? When you're giving, like when you're having a conversation, stay on your side of the net. You have no idea what the intention was, what the context was that the person was going through.

You observed a behavior.

So stay on your side of the net, which means you can talk about what a camera would catch.

Exactly.

You can talk about what the impact of that was on you.

Yeah.

What you're feeling. You have no idea what the other pieces were. So I think I love that that also shows up in all of your work, right? As a consistent, consistent theme.

She and I are completely aligned on that. I see people really get themselves into trouble when they say, you're always late for these team meetings because you don't care about this team. Oh my gosh, that is not going to be a productive, constructive, fruitful conversation. Anytime we are making assumptions about why someone did something or what their intentions were, we're just getting ourselves into a really murky situation.

Yeah, it's funny you talk— you brought that example up because I have that story actually in my book because this was a real-life situation, right? I had one of my coachees who, uh, who literally had that story about somebody and was about to basically, um, you know, take quite, uh, drastic action because it's been building up, right? We also don't give feedback real time. So like, this has been happening and he's been accumulating 1, 2, 3, 4. I mean, this has been going on for like 6 weeks. And at this point, he's just about had it. And he was going to give this feedback. And anyway, you know, my invitation was for him to kind of share this and ask the person what was going on rather than assume. And oh my God, it was such a breakthrough for the two of them and their relationship. Right? This was a meeting actually that this person was always late at. Always, always, always late. It was only a question of 10 minutes or 20 minutes or 15 minutes, but always late. And he realized that actually when he asked him what was going on, what he realized was this person was a single dad and had a drop-off for his kid that clashed with the meeting. And so it wasn't a choice. And he was always under carrying the stress, really beating himself up that he can't always make up. And the, you know, the 10 versus 20 minutes was how bad the traffic was, right? Or what else was going on, right? And so just that conversation actually helped. He was like, oh my God, like, he's like, no, this really matters. You have no idea what I feel. And they decided to change the time of the meeting.

Wow.

But that would have never happened, right? This notion of like only when we share the data versus read into the intentions can magic happen.

That is such a great example and kind of like pulls at my heartstrings because here that leader had come up with this story and this explanation and they were upset about, you know, this person blowing off the meeting and always being late and not prioritizing it when really there's this whole other world of demands going on that were conflicting.

Yeah. And the emotional burden that both of them were carrying.

Right.

Right?

So easily resolved with a simple conversation and a little curiosity.

Yeah. I mean, on the side of this, he was of course really beating himself up, but also, you know, it was like, this person doesn't care. Like, he's putting me in this situation, right? So there's all of this going on when it's actually a very solvable thing. But listen, I am really curious, Brody. How did you— I want to hear a little bit about your origin story and how you decided that you were going to dedicate a big chunk of your professional life and, you know, your research on this topic of giving and receiving feedback.

Yeah, it's pretty nerdy, isn't it? It all started— so I have a PhD in industrial organizational psychology. And when I got to graduate school at the University of Akron back in 2024— I'm sorry, 2004. Let me get the dates right. I was meeting with my PhD advisor, Paul Levy, who, by the way, knows a lot more about feedback than I do. He's the sage. We were talking about what I would focus on for my thesis research, for my master's thesis as part of the PhD program. And I went in and I was all over the place. I was like, oh, I want to look at biological markers of workplace stress and gender issues and this and that and this and that. And he was like, well, most of my research focuses on feedback and performance management. So let's try to find something in there. And I was like, oh, that is so dry and boring. And it didn't take long for me to become a total convert because once I started immersing myself in the research on feedback, I realized how ever-present feedback is in our work and lives. We are surrounded by feedback all day, every day. And without it, we would be operating in a vacuum. Feedback really helps you sort of calibrate in time and space. You know, how is your performance comparing with what's expected? How does your behavior align with your intentions and your values and how you want to show up? How are your attempts at building relationships landing and working with other people? Feedback is critical data back to us on everything that we do. The question is whether or not we recognize it as feedback, whether or not we want it, whether or not we accept it and know what to do with it. And so anyway, I started working very closely with Paul Levy, and he and I have done a lot of work together over the years. On the topics of both feedback and coaching, the two of which fit so nicely together in a lot of different ways. And we had a really cool experience or opportunity back in, I think, 2014. We were asked to co-author a book on using feedback in organizational consulting as part of a book series for the American Psychological Association. So Paul and I wrote that together. That's actually where that four-part model in the book comes from, which we'll talk more about. And as we were working on that book, which was very targeted to people who already had a little bit of a foundation in this topic, I realized like, man, we know so much from the research about what makes for effective feedback exchanges, you know, from every angle, right? Whether you're giving it, receiving it, figuring out what to do with it. And so little of that makes it out of academic journals and into day-to-day practice. Organizations that have robust training systems and performance management, people there get some exposure to it. But if you're in an organization that doesn't have the resources to invest in things like that, you're totally on your own. And so my goal in writing the first edition of Feedback Fundamentals was— this is a terrible metaphor, but I think of it almost like how a mother robin feeds a baby robin. You know, you get a worm and you like chew it up and spit it out for the baby robin. And my goal was to do that with academic research. To take this really dense scientific empirical research on feedback and talk about it in a way that anybody could understand, regardless of your background, your role, what kind of job you have or don't have, and start to feel like some of these Feedback Fast practices were accessible and actually useful, things that you could apply right away.

Yeah, I love that. Bridge the knowing-to-doing gap.

Exactly.

We know a lot, but we do so little. And part of it is that research never makes it. And the other part is those who get it, there is not enough space to practice. Because even if I get it, unless I practice it, I'm not gonna get good at it, especially not good at this skill that is so critical towards getting— becoming the best version of ourselves and helping others become their best version, right? Because to get better, you need data, you need to see where you are versus where you need to go, and you need to be able to provide that and get that and take actions on it.

And you just, you just touched on the crux of feedback. Feedback is data that tells you the distance between where you are and where you want to be. Like, at its core, that is what feedback is. It helps us assess the distance between a goal or an expectation or a standard and what we're actually doing today. And this is where two Technical terms are really important. Positive and negative feedback. People in workplaces talk a lot about positive feedback because that doesn't sound scary. Positive feedback tells you that you're either on track to achieve, have achieved, or have exceeded your goal. Negative feedback, which people really shy away from that word. Instead, they say things like constructive or developmental. Well, we want all feedback to be constructive. But negative feedback is a really technical term that simply says there's a There's still a gap between where you are and where you want to be. That's all that it means. It doesn't mean that it's hurtful or harmful or harsh. It simply means you still have something that you need to do before you've achieved that goal.

Yeah. And I often so, so commonly find, right, whether you're giving positive or negative feedback, if you do it in an unskilled way, it misses its impact. First, I think we don't give enough positive feedback.

Yeah.

But even when we do it, we might say, "Hey, great job!" But, you know, we touched on this topic actually. There was another podcast I did with Tamara Miles, whose whole work is on meaning at work. And she highlighted this beautiful model around, you know, she calls it BEST, which is, you know, how do you make— very similar— how do you make the behavior specific? How do you make the impact explicit on you? Right? It was just really, really powerful. And this notion of oftentimes, Even when people are given positive feedback, it is just a throwaway. We're not talking about the behavior. We're not talking about the strength of theirs that we are seeing. Right. So it's so powerful. But I want to get into your framework because I think I loved it. I was reading it and I was like, you know what? I've never thought about all of these components. So you have a 4-part framework. Share that a little bit with our listeners and then we'll get into a couple of pieces of it.

Absolutely. So this, this 4-part framework actually stems all the way back to roughly 2014 when Paul Levy and I were writing that first book. And we came up with this simplified model because we looked at all of these different, really important research articles on feedback and wanted to distill them down to their most common parts. And what we found was that every feedback exchange, regardless of what it's about, who is involved, if it's big deal, small deal. Every feedback exchange consists of 4 components. The provider of the feedback, which by the way, is typically we think of as a person, but it could be technology. It could even be self-generated, right? But it's, where is the feedback coming from? Then the recipient of the feedback, who is it, who's actually on the receiving end and generally the target of the feedback. The actual message that is shared. And there's a distinction between the provider and the message, right? The message is like, what exactly are you saying? But then parts of it are, how are you saying it? And what do we know about the relationship between the provider and the recipient? And then the fourth component is the context in which that feedback is shared. And this can include things like the, from a macro lens, like the culture of the organization, the feedback environment, all the way down to things like the specific medium that you choose and when you choose to provide the feedback.

Yeah. And the con— and also like public versus private, right?

Like— Oh, that's a big one.

Yeah, like there is, it's, and when do you use what, which one?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really important distinction. In fact, I'm gonna, I'm gonna glom onto that one for a second because I want your listeners to think about this. One of the most important things that you can do if you want someone to truly hear and process your feedback is to make sure you're sharing it in a private environment. There's this concept that comes up a lot in feedback research called public self-consciousness, which literally means if you're in the presence of other people, you become very self-conscious that you're receiving feedback in front of others, whether it's positive or negative. We, we see it for both. And self-consciousness literally means that a lot of your cognitive resources are being diverted inward. And so you're paying so much attention to your own emotions and how you're feeling, the discomfort that you're experiencing, wondering what everybody else is thinking about you. Instead of having those cognitive resources being focused on listening to and hearing and paying attention to the feedback. So one rule of thumb is, as much as you possibly can, avoid giving feedback in public. There's even a lot of research that's shown how harmful it is to give positive feedback in front of others, not only because it can make the recipient uncomfortable, but because of all these weird dynamics that it stirs up with the other people who are in the room. And not receiving positive feedback.

Yeah. No, I love that. So source, the message, receiver, and the overall context, the environment in which, right, all of this is happening. Let's dig into the message, right? We often think about message, as you said, that, you know, one of the most common mistakes is over-processing, right? So talk about some best practices when it comes to the message. How can we make sure we're providing message in the best possible way.

You know, a lot of people I talk to, when I ask them about their experiences with feedback, they describe these sort of dramatic inflammatory moments where it was like, "Oh, this big feedback and a blind spot," and they were so uncomfortable and they were surprised. And that's exactly the opposite of what we want with feedback. Some of the best feedback messages sound really dry and basic, and that's actually a good thing. Because what we're going for is having it sound like data and having it not elicit a strong emotional reaction in the other person. And so when we're crafting the message, we want to include a few elements. We want to make sure we're always focused on observable behaviors, never on inferences or assumptions or anything about the person. And a really important distinction is making sure your feedback says, "You do this," or, "You did this," not you are this. Like, you were late in turning in your last 3 deliverables, not you are disorganized and unreliable. And a lot of times our brains go to the judgment first. We think like, oh, this person is so unreliable and disorganized. And if your brain goes there first, there's nothing wrong with you. The key is to stop yourself and then say, okay, well, what is the actual behavior I'm observing that's leading me to that conclusion? So making sure we're focused on observable behaviors. The example you cited earlier of like something you would capture on video camera, it's exactly what we want. And you wanna avoid again, making assumptions or inferences about why someone has done something. 'Cause as much as you think you know, you really don't unless you can see inside that person's head. So behavioral evidence-based. We also want feedback to be as specific as possible. Really the reason we give feedback is to use data on the past to influence future behavior. And behavior change is not easy, as you know. It's hard to know what you need to change, to catch yourself in the act of engaging in habits or old behaviors and figure out ways to implement new behaviors. But the more specific feedback is, the easier it is for a person to understand exactly what it is they're doing or not doing, why that matters, and in what kinds of situations they need to address it. So being specific, evidence-based, and behavioral in the message makes it much easier for the other person to understand it and then take action on it. And there are a few great frameworks that I really like. One I learned from the Center for Creative Leadership way back when I worked at Procter Gamble in like 2010, and it's called the Situation Behavior Impact Model. And this is a really easy framework that you can use for any kind of feedback that you need to give. You explain What was the situation? So where did the thing happen? What was the specific behavior? And then what was the impact? Why did it matter? You were 20 minutes late to our team meeting last week. And as a result, you, you missed the really important update from Judy about Project X. And as a result of that, you weren't able to incorporate that into the project that you're leading. I just made this up off the top of my head. So it's not a great example, but it's, I think it's really helpful for both the giver and the receiver because for the giver, it forces you to pause. And structure the message. Like, what exactly is it that I want to say? How can I make sure I'm hitting all three of these elements? And for the recipient, it's easier to receive because you understand what you did, where you did it, and why it mattered.

Yeah, you know what I love about that, all of those components? What I love about that is if this is not— oftentimes, you know, we'll get to this in just a minute, but often people are like, oh, something happened, I'm gonna give the feedback right away, especially if it is something that is frustrating me, right? This is not, this is not about like letting your frustrations go. But if you hold the intention to say, hey, listen, I want to make an impact and make the whole thing better. And I wanna help that person share what's getting in the way. Again, data, not make them better, but like data, you don't know. Do they need to— is there something else in the situation that needs to change here? The environment.

Yeah.

Then I think stepping back, stopping a bit, and really thinking about the situation, the behavior, and the impact. A little bit of slowing down. And because it might even, as you think about the impact, you might start to say about what, what's going on within me, right? Like, why, why, what is happening within me? So it's not just about the other person. So that notion of And that allows us to make it specific, make sure we make it behavior-based versus person. And it's so easy to fall into that, right? It is so easy for us to fall into those generalizations. But if we do that implicitly, we put up the defensive shield versus behavior is something that we can all observe and we can talk about and we can be curious, right? As a, even as a provider, we can be curious to explore rather than judgmental and I'm going to get you right. So I love that. I love that. I'm curious about one element around message, Brody, right? So oftentimes you think about, you know, if you look at the ratios of positive to negative, people always say, oh, 5 is to 1, 3 is to 1. And the way I see it implemented often in practice is this classic, uh, uh, sandwich, right? 3 positives, 1 negative, and then I'm going to end with a positive.

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And I'm curious about, you know, your perspectives and how effective is that, or is there actually a different way to give feedback where, you know, you can both give the positive or the negative, right? So like, yes, I think the ratio can still hold, but we don't try and do too much.

Oh, there's, there's so much to talk about in what you just shared. Let me talk first about the ratio and then I'll come to the feedback sandwich. So I am a— I've read a lot of Barbara Fredrickson's work on like the positivity ratio. And I know that there's, there've been some questions about her work, but I think one really important takeaway is having this ratio of let's say like roughly 3 to 1 positive interactions to offset negative interactions. Thinking of it almost like investing in the relationship bank account that you have with someone is important. And from a feedback lens, you actually build credibility with the other person if you are striking that balance. If you're a manager and you believe that giving positive feedback makes people soft, and so therefore you withhold it and you only ever share negative feedback, that's going to start to wear on people. And eventually they're going to start to tune it out or get tired of it. And it also doesn't help them calibrate their performance. You know, you, you need positive feedback, not just to feel good, but to understand what's working and what you're doing well so that you can know to do more of that thing, or that this thing is complete and now I can shift some of my efforts and energy to this other thing. So I do think it's really important to have that balance where you are building, uh, the relationship, you are building credibility, you're building social capital by sharing meaningful positive feedback regularly. So that when you do need to share the tough messages, you have that foundation to build on. Now, the feed— and I like to think of it as an overall arc, right? This is in the overall arc of your relationship and interactions with someone, not a single interaction. So that doesn't mean that every time you share feedback, you have to have 3 positive pieces of feedback for every 1 negative.

Exactly.

You should focus on the feedback that you need to share in that moment. If someone just delivered a presentation and there is literally nothing critical that you could say about it, it was all great, share all that positive feedback. But to your earlier point, make sure you're doing it in a way that is behavioral-specific and evidence-based, not just platitudes or what I like to call empty calorie feedback. And when you have negative feedback to share, share it and don't feel the need to sugarcoat it or cushion it. Follow the best practices, have a meaningful conversation with someone. And share it as data. Now, the feedback sandwich, I actually have a lot of patience and empathy with people because for a long time, the feedback sandwich was taught as like best practice in, in some like management training programs. But the feedback sandwich where you really want to share something negative with someone, but you're uncomfortable about it, or you want to soften the blow, and so you wrap it in positive messages. There are two harmful things about it. One, people leave the conversation confused. It's unclear, like, was that good or bad? I'm not really sure. The message gets diluted. And instead of them hearing it clearly and directly and knowing what the issue is and what they need to do about it, it's just kind of this like muddled mess. The second thing that I think is really sad about the feedback sandwich is that it actually conditions people to expect the other shoe to drop anytime someone shares positive feedback with them. So if they've only ever had the feedback sandwich where someone says something nice, then they say something negative, then they say something nice, they assume that anytime you share a piece of positive feedback, it's just because you're trying to soften the blow from the thing that you really want to say, which is a really, it's a wasted opportunity to connect with someone meaningfully when you have positive feedback to share. So my bias is stay away from the feedback sandwich at all costs. And if you have practiced it up until now and you learned it as a good thing, that's okay. You can always change your approach. However, there are situations like, for instance, an annual performance review where you do need to share both positive and negative feedback in the same conversation. And I think that that's totally appropriate. You just want to be really intentional about how you structure it and signal it. So you might actually say to someone, you know, Ashish, I'm really excited to have your year-end conversation today. You've had a, you've had a really positive year. We're going to talk about why. I want to start by talking about the impact that you've had and celebrating some growth that I've seen in you. And then I want to talk about 2 opportunity areas that I see for you going into 2026. So you're very clearly signaling we're going to celebrate all this good stuff. Then we're going to talk about some critical stuff and then we're going to wrap up the conversation. And I think that that helps because people understand what's coming. They kind of see, okay, this segment has ended. Now, we're going to move on and talk about this segment. And we're going to talk about what to do with it. And it's not going to be shared in a way that's destructive and makes me feel bad but in a way that helps me learn and grow and have even higher performance this coming year.

Yeah, I love that, right? It's one of the most common things I see, right, this sandwich, which as you highlight, has so many effects. And absolutely, right? If you're a leader, look, the research with Barbara Fredrickson around 3:1, 5:1, right? There's so many, all of the work that's been out there. I'm forgetting the name of these relationship experts. It was, they had the 5:1 ratio. I think as a leader, By the way, you can create an environment where for a person to really thrive, you might not be the only one giving them the positive feedback around, right? Create an environment where they can get feedback from peers, from other stakeholders. And you as well, as you think about your interactions with somebody, this is, by the way, as much about them as is about you. And here's what I feel why that matters. We have a negativity bias. So if I want to focus all my time thinking about what somebody is not doing well, first of all, it's not a fun place to be yourself. But secondly, as you highlight, Rolly, all the research actually shows when we show people what they're doing well in a way that is behavioral, that leverages, you know, what strength, they actually can get better, right? They actually get much better on strength-based feedback.

Right.

But you don't have to combine the strength-based feedback with what they need to do if there is negative feedback. What you're suggesting is break them apart.

Yeah.

Right? Share positive feedback, create an environment where others can share that feedback with the person. But when it comes to negative feedback, and negative feedback, nothing is good or bad, but as simply as, here's the standard, here's where I am seeing a gap and I'm just gonna share it, right? And just like a thermostat reacts to—

Yes.

If it's too cold or too hot, it's not that, you know, it's above or below is bad. They are now very much attuned towards being able to do something about it and to be able to share what's going on so you collectively can think about doing something to close the gap.

And when you work in an environment where there is a strong culture feedback, a strong feedback environment, and where there are expectations that feedback is free-flowing, and that's part of the norms, and people are comfortable with it, and they appreciate it, and they feel accountable to do something with it, negative feedback doesn't feel so scary. And one thing I want to add about negative feedback. So I did a study back in about 2008. So it's getting a little dated at this point, but the findings have really stuck with me. Not all negative feedback is created equal. There's another way of talking about feedback, and this comes back to the message, which we talked about a few minutes ago. You can categorize most feedback as either process feedback or outcome feedback. Process feedback basically means feedback along the way. So as you are working on something, you're getting feedback, which you can immediately integrate into your work and like course correct on things. And it helps you get better as you're working on something. Outcome feedback feels more summative. This is like feedback at the end of something. So your final grade at the end of the semester or your performance rating at the end of the year. And when you cross feedback type, process or outcome, with feedback sign, positive or negative, you see really different results. People actually really value and appreciate negative process feedback. Feedback that tells you like, well, you're a little bit off here. Oh, okay. I can go address that thing in my work and get closer and closer to my goal. But they, of course, love positive outcome feedback. People like to know that at the end of something they've done well, they got the A, they got the highest rating, they achieved the goal. And so there are two things to take away here. One is to make sure in the workplace that you're giving a lot of that negative process feedback that helps people integrate into their work and take action on it right away. Also the positive process. But after a while, people kind of tune out on positive process if you just tell them all the time, like, you're doing great, keep going. They stop asking. And another thing that you can do is reframe the feedback to feel more like process feedback. So for instance, if you, you were at McKinsey for what, like 16 years?

17 years. Yeah.

17 years. Okay. So you could look at your annual rating as like, oh, this is it. This, this sums up my entire year. This is the judgment and the assessment of me. And if you're not happy with your rating, you feel really bad about yourself. But instead, if you say, nope, I'm on this 17-year journey at McKinsey. I'm not thrilled with this year's rating, but I identified 3 really specific things that I need to work on next year so that I can be even better. So you're kind of reframing outcome feedback as process feedback if you look at it in a sort of a longer-term arc of things.

Yeah, I love that. So let's talk a little bit about context. Because you can have the perfect message, but if delivered in the wrong context, will not work. And in fact, will blow up. So talk a little bit around, you know, the different components to keep in mind.

I think the two that I'll emphasize, well, we already talked a little bit about public versus private, right? That's probably the most important. Yeah. Always give feedback in private, even if it means you have to wait a little while to have a private conversation. The other two most important elements are time and the medium that you choose. And with timing, you know, the general rule of thumb is you want to give feedback as soon as possible after something happens. So that way, whatever happened is still fresh in your mind. It's fresh in the other person's mind. You can have an informed and accurate conversation. And it also shows that you care. You know, we've— you've probably had experiences where someone gives you feedback on something that happened 3 months ago. It's pretty demotivating because it's like, well, if you really cared, you wouldn't have waited 3 months to tell me.

Well, plus I think our brain, you know, we forget all the things that happen. So I'm like, is that what happened? I'm not sure that happened.

Yeah, exactly right. It gets a little blurrier. It feels you've moved on at this point. It doesn't feel helpful. So we want to err on the side of timeliness. The one asterisk I'll put by that is making sure you can be in private. So if you have to wait few hours or a few days to make sure you can be in a private setting, that's, that's worth taking a little extra time. And the other one is if it's a situation that's emotionally charged, whether you as the feedback provider are upset or angry, or the other person is sad or frustrated or angry, or even really, really happy. I mean, I remember at McKinsey, like, if you told someone they became an AP or a partner and then shared developmental feedback with them, They like didn't even hear it because they were so excited about the news. So, you know, emotions work in both ways, really strong positive emotions and strong negative emotions. So it's okay to wait a little bit longer if you need to wait for those emotions to cool off a little bit.

Yeah. Well, you know, as I hear about your point of emotions, you know, one of, one of, I love the work of Thích Nhất Hạnh, right?

This Vietnamese monk.

And, you know, I was listening to him the other day and he, even in the context of emotions, he actually said something really powerful. So let's say he said, if you and your wife had an exchange or you and your son had an exchange and what happened was really hurtful or made you really angry, you know, his invitation was don't react, don't want to engage, take a bit of space but do it by declaring it. And so he said, listen, just go and tell them, hey, listen, um, what you said was really hurtful for me. I need a bit of space, uh, to, to really process that emotion, uh, and then I want to come back and, and talk a little bit about, about this, share what I felt and what happened, uh, but that way you're both as real time saying something has happened. You're talking about the impact on you and that you recognize that I am not in the space right now.

Right.

And I want to create a bit of space. And then you're actually setting on Friday or on this day, let's come back together and create a space where we can really process this together.

Yeah. I completely agree. And I think that this is actually something that if you're on the receiving end of feedback, can be a really helpful tool. You know, people often forget how uncomfortable and anxiety-provoking it can be to give feedback. You know, you're really worried about how the other person's going to react and if they're going to get mad and how the conversation is going to go. And so if you've received feedback and you're feeling emotionally charged, it's okay to say, "Hey, I, I just need some time to process this. I'm feeling a lot of emotions. Is it okay if we reconnect on Friday and talk more about this?" that. And so this is good for two reasons. One, as a feedback recipient, it's buying you some time and giving you some time to process and think about it. But as the feedback provider, you now have fewer question marks about what's going on with the other person. You will appreciate their transparency and saying, I'm having a big reaction. I want to think about it and revisit it. Whew. Okay, good. I feel, I feel better knowing that this isn't going to turn into a debate or a screaming match.

Yeah. So on that point, let's actually go— we've talked a lot about giving feedback, but feedback is a gift. If we are not skilled at receiving feedback, I think we often are throwing away these incredible gifts of data that systems, technologies, people are sharing with us that can be helpful to us. So disaggregate a little bit, Brody, of what goes on in our brain when we receive feedback and, you know, the 7-step process that you outlined in your book so beautifully around how we can actually make the most out of feedback we receive.

Absolutely. So I think this is something that's really important for people to recognize when they're receiving feedback. You know, I hear so often from people that they feel this pressure or this expectation to hear it, process it, accept it, have a pithy response about what they're going to do with it, and then take action right away. And the reality is our brains just don't work that way. You know, especially if it is something that is surprising or makes us feel vulnerable or uncomfortable, you need to give time for the initial emotional reaction to pass. And so if you find yourself on the receiving end of feedback, recognize that it might take hours or days or weeks for you to really process the feedback and decide then what you want to do with it. So the first step is hearing it for the first time, having your initial emotional reaction, then sort of giving some time for the emotions to subside and for rational thought to catch up. For all of its wonders, cognition is much slower than emotion, and we need to give ourselves some time and space. So then taking the time to think about it and often recognize what might be missing. Where do you need more information? Where are there holes in what the other person shared? What's unclear? What questions do you wanna ask them to better understand the real issue or what you're doing or not doing? And then you get to decide whether or not you actually want to accept it. This is a misconception that I see in a lot of people. Back to this sort of victim mindset that like feedback is happening to you. You actually have a lot of autonomy and choice about whether or not you accept feedback and what you choose to do with it. Now, granted, in some situations that might have consequences. You know, if your boss gives you some critical feedback about your performance and you decide to not accept it or do anything with it, you might have to deal with the consequences of that. But you always have a choice. You always have a choice about whether or not you accept it and what you want to do with it. Then I think the next big challenge comes in translating the feedback into, now what? What do I want to do with this? What implications does this have for my behavior and my work? And what are some things that I might want to experiment with? And then we start getting into the world of behavior change where things like goal setting and implementation intentions and really being intentional and catching ourselves in the act of doing things becomes important. And so going through that whole process, I kind of muddied them together, but it is basically 7 discrete steps. And again, they could take hours, days, or even weeks to work through. And I think Being a good recipient, feedback recipient, means recognizing that and having some patience and grace with yourself.

Yeah. I think it's so powerful. I think we always think about, you know, shortcut, right? Somebody's giving feedback. I'm already like triggered before I even receive it. So I'm first of all not fully hearing what's being said.

Right.

I'm not seeing clearly. And then often like, oh, I got the message. And then I feel a need to respond. Right away.

Right.

Like, got it. Oh my God, I'm so upset. Like, I can't believe you said whatever it is in the context of it. Right. So, so first of all, we're not preparing ourselves to receive it. Second, we are not, we feel an urgent, I need to be able to give feedback on feedback right away. So what you're inviting is one, prepare yourself. Second, you know, just give yourself space, process it. And then the third is, you know, like, again, there are multiple facets. They're sharing data. Really think about it. Let, let yourself play with that. If you have additional data to provide that informs what was going on, provide that, right? Right. Um, or, or there might be elements of data that they don't know but you know, which is resulting in, in, in the gap. So you're aware that like, oh my God, you know what, yeah, I was emotionally, um, you know, triggered because I've been getting 4 hours of sleep. So I don't do well with 4 hours of sleep. So I need to go address that if I'm going to address, you know, how emotionally reactive or kind of tired, whatever it is, right? Give you and then make it actionable. I think this notion of how do we actually, if you decide to do something with it, how do we break it down into specific things that will actually move us closer to the goal, to close the gap. I keep coming back to that analogy because I think it is so powerful. Feedback is data. And negative feedback is data about the gap between an accepted standard, right? Between where you might be and where you need to be in order for the system collectively to do well, right? Like now, if you—

You got it.

Not accept the standard, you can choose to leave the system. But, but I think if you use it as data, I think there is so much that you can do with it.

Well, and the way that you just framed that, I think highlights something else that's important about the bigger picture conversation. You know, we don't want feedback to just be transactional. We want it to be a dialogue because there's so many other pieces that are involved, like goals or standards or expectations. And one thing that I've seen play out many times is someone will give someone feedback on something, the other person won't quite agree with it. And what they find is that they had two totally different expectations around the standard or the goal or what good performance looks like. And so then what's most fruitful coming out of that conversation is the two people have a conversation about, OK, what exactly is it that we're trying to achieve? What is the expectation? What does good look like? And they come out with much more alignment. And so the feedback almost becomes secondary. It helps to initiate the conversation. But what they really needed to do was align on that thing that we are working towards.

Yeah, or what's in the environment that's getting in the way, right? I'm remembering, yeah, this— I had a chance to do some work with the U.S. Olympic Committee, um, and we were doing work with them and a couple of other constituents, right? And I'm just reflecting that it's often like this notion of, you know, the system in the U.S., right, most of it is not funded by the government. So it's all based on funding that different organizations literally go and they have to get it through membership, through sponsorships, through commercial rights, et cetera, right? It's a system where there is not enough glasses of water for the number of people who are thirsty. And so if you take that tension in a system, right? We can have debate about who should have more or less, or am I being given what I need versus not? Or we can have a conversation around how do we actually really expand the pie and the reflection on like everybody's trying to do the best they can. And so this is one of those standards of fairness, right and wrong. If you hold it in the bigger context, I think it also gives us a little bit more empathy. It gives us a little bit more of a place of understanding to be able to then both nudge the system into actually creating space, right? Maybe we are all operating in, in, in something that the feedback, the behavior is true, and yet it is not about the person, but collectively, if we change the environment, the standards, that we will actually again, get the system to get to where we want to go.

Yeah, absolutely. The behavior might be the catalyst for the conversation, but ultimately the thing that needs to change might be something in the environment. Or the expectation or the relationship. And I, and one thing I want to add to that, you know, as a feedback provider, it's really important to keep in mind, I am sharing data with this person on their behavior in order to help them have better behavior in the future. If as a feedback provider, your intention is anything else, like to make this person feel small, to exert my power, to put them in their place, don't give the feedback. Like, that is, that is unhelpful. So checking your intention as a feedback provider is one of the most important things to to start with.

My friend, this has been so helpful. As I look at the time, we've shared a lot at people. We've shared the framework, right? This 4-part framework. We've shared some things around message and context. We've talked about receiving feedback. What might be, as we kind of sum all of that up, what might be 3 actionable to-dos? So if a listener says, okay, 'Lot to process. I'm gonna go read Brody's book. But here are 3 things I could go do tomorrow.' What might be those 3 things you would invite them to consider?

I'm going to answer this from a few different perspectives. So whether you're giving or receiving feedback, there will be something for you. First one is if you have feedback that you've been thinking about giving someone, if that is useful information for them, give the feedback. And make sure you are planning ahead. You know, I think it's really helpful to write it down and even say it out loud once before you give it. Make sure it's focused on behavior, it's evidence-based, it's specific. Plan what you want to say, say it, and stop talking. So that's, that's the thing to go do if you have feedback to give someone, whether it's personal, professional, big deal, small deal, doesn't matter. If you are someone who would like to get more feedback or you find yourself on the receiving end I think one of the best tools that you can use is something that I call the pre-ask. This is where you're asking someone for feedback on something that you care about, but you're actually asking them before the thing happens so that they can pay really careful attention to your behavior and give you really high-quality feedback. So for instance, if you were working on giving presentations that are very clear and concise and engaging, If you were going in to make a presentation on Thursday, you might ask one of your colleagues who would be in the room, "Hey, um, Sarah, I'm working on strengthening my presentation skills in these ways. Could you pay really close attention to my presentation and give me some feedback afterward on what you think I did well and what could have been stronger?" And that makes it so easy for the other person to give you feedback because they are attuned. They can capture some really good, specific detailed notes for you, and they're not scared to give you the feedback because you've asked for it. You've opened the door. So their anxiety is lower. Then I think for anybody, if you just want to get a better sense of what feedback is like in your world, one of the things I talk about in the book is just taking a day and writing down all of the feedback moments that you have. Because a misconception that I've noticed with a lot of people is they over-index on the big deal moments. Right? A performance review, an uncomfortable conversation. But the reality is you are getting feedback all the time from a wide variety of sources. And so just picking a day and jotting down every time that you give, receive, ask for, or use feedback and noticing where it's coming from. Most of the feedback that we get on any given day is self-generated. We are having self-talk all day long that's generating feedback. We also get a lot of feedback from technology and we are much less likely to have emotional reactions when feedback is coming from technology. And so if you're interested in that, there's actually a template in the book, I think, to work on capturing those things and just noticing how much feedback you really get in a given day.

Yeah, I loved it. I think you counted 25 data points.

I did. And I probably missed a bunch too.

I love it. Friends, data, feedback is data. It's all around us. and if we choose to use it, it can truly help us individually, as leaders, as parents, as colleagues, as community members. If we learn to read it and give it in the right way, in the right context, I think we can really be positive agents of change and flourishing in the world. Brody, I'm so grateful for all of your work. For your deep research onto this field. Thank you. We'll put, I think you mentioned in the notes, you actually have a playlist that you've created of songs around feedback. We'll put that link in our show notes as well. And I am really excited to go listen to the songs you've picked up.

And they aren't really about feedback specifically, but they'll help you remember some of the best practices. Like time is on your side is one of my favorite ones to think about when it comes to processing feedback.

Love it. Thank you, my friend. Have an amazing day. It was so wonderful to have you.

Thanks, Ashish. I really appreciate it.

Cheers. Thank you for joining me on The Flourishing Edge.

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