Finding Significance in Your Career: The Journey to Meaningful Work with Angie Callen

A lot of times when I have clients who are evaluating, do I take this job offer or not? I'll say to them, would you regret leaving for this? Or in three months, if you don't get another job offer, are you going to regret taking it? And it almost 99% of the times helps them get the instant clarity because they have the gut reaction to that. Kind of like, ooh, what I do in hindsight, right? So if you can fast forward yourself to 80, what is that book? The Six Confessions of the Dying. Nobody ever says I wish I would have worked more or I wish I would have worked on myself less.

Hey there friends. Welcome to Happiness Squad. This is the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock your full potential by mastering the art and science of happiness. We bring on the best leading experts on these topics to help you unlock your true potential and live with more joy, health, love and meaning in your life. Your host is no other than the star combo of Ashish Kothari and Anil Ramjiani who are both on a mission to provide you with an unfair advantage to be the masters of your experience and leaders in your industry. Get ready to be moved, challenged and enlightened on this podcast. It may change your life. Thanks for being here and joining the squad.

Hey Happiness Squad, it's great to have you with Ashish and I as we continue to discuss with our guests who are industry leaders helping individuals and organizations unlock new their inner happiness and flourishing. Are you locked in a role or career that you don't love? You know growth doesn't happen in the comfort zone. Our next guest will explain why. Meet Angie Callen, Founder and Principal of Career Benders. Angie helps inspire confident professionals through career coaching, job search guidance and employment entrepreneur transitions. As a former engineer, Angie specializes in working with professionals who high level managers and executives to navigate the challenges of the workforce today. Over the last five years, Career Benders has helped over 1,000 individuals across the US realize their true potential, marketability, find career satisfaction and grow confidently. Angie also hosts a career focused podcast that we encourage you to check out. It's called no More Mondays where she interviews professionals who have wisdom on breaking down career barriers and and provide actionable takeaways to help take charge of your Monday blues and beat your Sunday scaries. You know. During this conversation with Angie and Ashish, we delved into the mindset that we encounter during a career crisis. This is happening to me rather than for me. We discuss how you can look at the life you want to have and design a career around it by the End of the conversation, we explore success and significance and as many of us author the next chapter of our lives and ask ourselves the question, what do I want to be remembered for? Stay tuned till the end our rapid fire transition finale where Angie and Ashish both leave us with fun and inspiring parting thoughts. So, hey, let's get started. Please join Ashish and I as we welcome Angie to Happiness Squad and Hardwire for happiness together.

Hey, Ashish.

Hey, Angie. How are you both doing?

I am great. I am excited to be here and talk about happiness.

I'm wonderful. You're on the right side. I'm wonderful. It is a sunny day after a lot of rainy, cloudy days here in Boulder, so I'm really excited and I'm so excited to see Angie, my dear friend.

So, yeah, I know we, I feel like we started this conversation on the no More Mondays podcast right as the Happiness Squad was emerging. And so I'm excited to dig into more and hear what you've been going on. And yes, we were talking before we came on about kind of our shared weather here in Colorado, and it is a beautiful sunny day, so it's a great day to talk about being happy.

Yeah.

And you know, Angie, it's amazing what struck me, you know, when we first met and when we exchanged, we only met virtually. But when we first met, what was amazing to me was how on point our work is, you know, in terms of what we are trying to do and how important purpose and meaning is one of such a key ingredient. And you've dedicated, you know, your life and your career towards helping people find meaning. So I, I mean, I just love it and I couldn't wait. I know it took us a while to get you on scheduled on the podcast, but I can't wait for our listeners to kind of really, from somebody who spent so many, you know, hours and years helping people find their meaning to get the tips from you on how to solve this crisis of meaninglessness, if you will, that pervades our corporate world.

You hit the nail on the head and thank you for having me. And, and I look at this as this is when we were supposed to be here, right? And, and it's interesting because I've spent the last five and a half years in this world of figuring out how to help people find more satisfying work. But I have to tell you, I spent 15 years trying to figure that out for myself. And I think a lot of that is what kind of informs that perspective. And a long time ago when I was an engineer in the corporate world, And I made a big life change. It triggered that realization that we, we really fall into that mediocrity trap in our, specifically in our professional lives, but that just tends to impact our overall lives because career satisfaction is a huge component of your overall well being. We do it more than we do anything else, including sleep. And so when I was able to and had the opportunity to make a big life change and kind of look back on that very status quo career situation I was in, I was following the norm, I was doing what people normally did. I realized a lot of us don't actually go through the effort to figure out, you know, why we're on this earth, the purpose and impact we're supposed to have, and to figure out how to actually execute on that, to deliver. And it's really exciting when you get to unlock that potential for somebody.

So, Angie, like, let's just jump into the deep end on it, right? So before we even talk to you about your definition of happiness, there's something that you mentioned that I kind of want to find out from you, and that is when you meet a client, when you meet people who exactly, as you said, come into that mediocrity mindset, they have resentment, they have a certain sense of emotion, you know, whether they love their job or they're just literally surviving in their job, or they, they just got laid off and they're like, what's going on? They go from a mindset of, you know, abundance to scarcity. And you have to almost take that head on. Maybe just give our listeners just tee us up, like jumping into the deep end. How do you manage that mindset? What's your initial approach when you speak to someone almost to bring them back to baseline.

I love that we're just going for it because that is the career crisis mode that here. And here's the thing, you're going to just get me on like 12 soapboxes for the next half hour. I can feel it already. To me, that is a career crisis moment that often pushes somebody off of, off of a precipice that they actually need to be pushed off in order to get a new perspective and almost move, be forced to change, right? Because we get comfort, we get comfortable. And we all know that meme that growth doesn't happen in the comfort zone. And I think that tends to get us just into almost too stagnant of a routine where we're not really focusing on ourselves. And when those career CR moments occur, I actually think that they're more of an opportunity or a blessing than they are a detrimental event to your, your future success because it provides that line in the sand to stop and evaluate. And that's my biggest thing for if you are laid off, the best thing you can do for yourself is just stop, right? Because when we go into crisis mode, trauma mode, whether it's life or career, our reaction is typically, I would say, to react, although you could, you could fight, you could flee or you could freeze, but none of those, none of those really, really kind of get you anywhere. And even freeze is not the same as just stop and just be right. Because instead of panicking, because these things always work out, right? It's always works out and it, this will too. But you owe it to yourself to at least take a breath and not get caught up in the panic that can come with the succession of, oh, my gosh, I lost my job. How am I going to explain this to a potential employer? When I go to an interview, nobody's going to hire me, then I'm not going to have any money, I'm going to have to lose my house, and we're going to be eating beans out of a can for the next three years. That is the instinct that you all have when something like this happens. But if you're just very realistic about it and you stop and you look at it very pragmatically, you're like, wait a minute, how likely am I to have that worst case scenario play out versus looking at this as an opportunity around how, how can this happen for me versus why is this happening to me?

Yeah, there's two really beautiful, you know, coherence points here, Angie, between kind of our own thinking and work, right? And this notion, I think the first, which is when we lose our jobs, we literally, our fear circuits are full on, right? Because there are all of these questions that start to come up right around, who am I? How am I going to provide for my family? Am I ever going to find another job? And I'm like, really like, 20 years of success and you think you're never going to find another job, right? So I think there are these fear circuits, and as you said, from a contracted space, very little becomes possible. So, you know, in the later half of this, I would love to get into how you help people shift that mindset because it's easy to say, don't be scarce, it'll all be okay. But we all know our brains have, you know, they really get attached to all the negativity. So we keep replaying, replaying, replaying. So I want to get into that with you a little bit. But the second big piece also is, you know, in that moment, you know, I love these words of Viktor Frankl, right? Like, there is suffering. So let's acknowledge that when we lose our job, there is suffering. It's not like, oh, it's okay, there is suffering. But it is our jobs as human beings to make meaning of that suffering and emerge from that stronger rather than, you know, just continue more of the same and poor me. Right. And by the way, the other part of this that directly ties in also to dear listeners, if you've been following on the hardwired for happiness journeys is self compassion. You are not the first one to have been fired. You're not the only one who hates their job or hates their boss or is not having, you know, just like, it's a way to put together. 70% of people today are disengaged. So this notion of common humanity, right. Work done by Kristin Neff, that is a core part of our self compassion practices. It's okay, but it's not okay to stay there. It is. You need to move away from there. And that's what we're gonna dig into this episode. Angie, with you. But before we even go, let's. I have a question, right. We always start with this with our guests. And this is a question on what is your definition of happiness? And as you work with your clients, what do you try and tell them about how to be happier?

You just dangled like 18 carrots with your previous response, and I want to dig into all of them. But I will answer the question at hand. To me, I think that it's up to us. So I'll preface this by saying you all owe it to yourself to figure out your answer to this question as well. And this is one of my things. I've. This is an opinion that I have had since the day I started Career Benders was that everyone does not have the same definition of career growth or career satisfaction or life happiness. So you have to start by figuring out what that means to you. Because one person may strive to climb the ladder and become a C suite because they want that level of responsibility, while somebody else wants to be, you know, deeper in subject matter knowledge. Right? So you have to kind of understand what all of that means to you so that you can. Can answer this question. You know, in my opinion, both for me and in how I would approach this with clients, is looking at the life you want to have and designing a career that will support it versus the other way around, which is how we like to do it in America. Right. I am going to live life in the hour and 57 minutes that exists after I turn off my computer, eat dinner and put my kids to bed versus the I would like to only work from blank to blank and take Fridays off. Right. So I think that you really have to look at your life goals, needs and parameters and align your work to it. And if you're able to do that, that to me means you've met the definition of satisfaction, especially if if that job or that career track aligns with your growth goals. Right. Because the other thing is a lot of times I think that we put too much emphasis or too much pressure on career satisfaction to fill all of the buckets of our life happiness when it's unrealistic that your life is going to check every single box. Right. So if you also have realistic expectations of what aspects of your life goals or fulfillment it meets now you're creating a whole picture and a little ecosystem of satisfaction across the board. So going back to the layoff thing for just a second, one of the things that Ashish you kind of dabbled in but didn't say the specific words word is that a lot of times a layoff really shakes your confidence and makes somebody question their self worth. And the most important thing you can do is one, you brought it up that idea that misery loves company but you shouldn't stay in the bad company. Right. And also and that realization that many people go through this and many people overcome it and somebody else releasing you from a job does not define the value you bring to the market. Right. That does not mean you are valueless as an employee. In 99% of cases, that layoff is probably not about you, even though it feels like it's about you. And that's why I think it's really important to just pause and breathe and just get a grieve it because there is a grieving component to losing a job. You know, whether it's a traumatic or whether it's a bittersweet move you proactively make, you've got to let yourself feel those feelings and just versus like reacting and panicking and know that it is not a detriment that devalues you and should rattle your confidence.

Yes, I love that on this notion of value. Right. Angie, Like I'm reminded of this story. I don't know if you've heard this or our listeners have, but you know, a father gifts his son a car and it's kind of a really old car and it's rusty. And he says to him, like, this is your gift. And the son says, like, this thing, like, I mean, it, like, does it even work? Like, it's like literally really, really old car, right? And he says, look, it's really valuable. He's like, I don't think so. He's like, why don't you try and sell it and see, you know, this is what it's worth. And he. So he says, okay. And so he kind of posted on Facebook, you know, he's one of the new age kids, right? I'm going to post it on Facebook and Marketplace and here and there. And literally, I think people, you know, there's somebody I think gets an offer for like $900 or something to say, I'll pay you 900. It's the highest offer somebody gives him. And he says, it's worth $900. Is that your gift to me as my graduation present? And he says, why don't you take it to a dealer and see what they say? And so he says, okay, fine. Like, does this even run? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it'll run. Just take it. So he takes it to a dealer, and he takes it to one of those, again, New age Carvana kind of places, right? And they come in, they look, and they're like, yeah, I think it needs a bit of work. I think we'll pay you like, 5,000 for it, and we'll get it fixed up, but I think we can sell it, and I think it's fine. So he's like, okay, wow, that's 5,000. And then the father says, go take it. He's like, okay, so it's worth 5,000. So that's your graduation gift to me. And he says, actually, now go take it to this antique dealer. And he goes to the antique dealer and says, wow, do you realize this is only one of 20 cars of this model that were ever made? This thing is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Will you sell it to me? And he says, no, I think I'm going to keep it. And he brings it back home, doesn't sell it, and it's with him. And the lesson was exactly building on what you were saying. Just because you laid off, that is not your value. Different people place different value on you. Your job is to find those who value you for who you really are and what you bring and design something in line with that, right?

Because rusty and old might mean $900 on Facebook Marketplace, or 500,000 to the antique shop that understands what they're looking at. So it's a fantastic analogy that I think can also help when using that layoff opportunity as the opportunity it is to say, you know, I'm going to use this. I'm going to look at this and say, what is my value? What is. What are my life goals? What is my career strategy and purpose in this world? So that I'm going to use this push off the precipice as an opportunity to go do all those things. So.

So I want to dig into that analogy, though, because I love that one and I saw a video from it and that, that, it really. It gave me goosebumps, Angie, when I think about that. So I work for Nike. So yes, I'm seeing your. Your top, and I'm like, what is she wearing that for? But we'll come. We'll have a conversation about that another time. You know, I have spoken to people who work here, and I'm thinking, you know, hey, you know, you. You're. You're bright, you're brilliant. You know, would you consider working elsewhere? And they're like, no, no, no. My life is. I've always wanted to work here, and this is where I want to be.

And I get.

But you know, what if you could make more, do more, experience more, feel more fulfillment when you go to another company, whether it be a competitor and like, no, no, I just, I feel like my life is here. So my question to you is, how do you help people see the lesson that Ashish just shared from that example? How do you help us help your clients understand, like, hang on a second. Like, you might actually need to think a bit broader and think outside the box and be open to possibility rather than shut that possibility down.

I would say that there's not necessarily a straightforward answer to that. I think in general, you said the word, which is to think critically about yourself and actually introspect for a hot minute, because we don't do that very often anymore. And bringing a healthy dose of that kind of, let's say, abundance or possibilities mindset. So I love the fact that we're talking about abundance versus scarcity, because I'm a huge fan of Carol Dweck's book mindset and how these things are either ingrained in us, but do they have to be? And you can change your. Change that mindset. And one of the things that is the most rewarding to do is sit down with a client and go through. And just. My particular approach is very organic. I ask a lot of questions. I give people a Lot of food for thought. And one of the things I really enjoy asking, and I challenge all of you out there to ask yourself is two things. What did you want to be when you were a little kid? And if you could be anything right now, what would you be? You have to have a job. It doesn't matter how much money it makes. You have to do some sort of vocation. What would you do if it didn't matter what type of qualifications and what kind of money you would make? And the answers people give are incredible and usually have nothing to do with what they're actually doing. And what's really amazing and rewarding and exciting is to take that dreamy and actually tie it into some basis of reality, to say, well, what if we could take that concept and bring it into your. And tie it into your experience, skills, and knowledge to go give you something that's more meaning. So to take it to the Nike scenario, a lot of it is, in my opinion, is asking why. I don't think we ask ourselves why enough. We just do things because we're supposed to do them. So does somebody coming to work with you at Nike say, I've always wanted to work at Nike because it's a huge brand, it'll build my resume, and it'll look really good because it's a sexy name. Or do they say, I love that this is the thing? Because I was listening to a book earlier that was talking about Michael Jordan. So I'm like, this is like, oh, how cool. But like. Or do they say, I've wanted to work for Nike since Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen came together and won six championships in seven years and he sponsored Nike. And it's meant so much to me since I was a little kid. Right. Is it an aspiration or is it a superficial goal that you want to plaster on social media because it'll make you look good? And I think you have to be very honest with yourself about the motivations behind things and what you want out of them in order to kind of go beyond surface level with your career planning.

I really love that.

Are you enjoying the show so far? Let me ask you a few questions before going back. Have you ever wondered why so many of us struggle with stress, anxiety, and burnout and feel stuck in life? Heck, maybe you're going through this right now. Well, the reason for this lies in the evolutionary biology of our brains, which are hardwired for fear. It's part of the reason why our team named this podcast Happiness Squad. It serves as a reminder that happiness is what really matters and that we are in this together. And that is why we are so excited to share with you a resource to help you on your journey. One of our hosts, Ashish Guattari, launched a book, Hardwired for Happiness and it is a number one Amazon bestseller. When you get access to this book, you will discover nine secular practices that can change your life and are backed by scientific evidence from psychology and neuroscience. Learn how you can integrate Hardwired for Happiness practices in every part of your life to unlock your best self, regardless of how busy you are. Shift from knowing to doing to being with a range of journaling, meditation and group coaching exercises and so much more. Go to www.happinesssquad.combook to get access. Right now we also have bonuses on the page that you don't want to miss. Once again, www.happinesssquad.com book and now back to the show.

You know Angie, the beauty of those questions, right? I mean, how good were those questions? Anil, Right. I have another one which I would. I'm sure you asked this too, but I will add a third one. And Anil, I'll pass it back to you. This notion of if you were a kid, what did you love? If you could do anything and money wasn't a constraint, what would you do? And then There is this third question which is imagine if you are 80 years old and you're looking back at your life. What do you want to be remembered for in terms of the life you read, the impact you had, whatever, all of that, right? Connect to that future. So the childhood, the future looking back and kind of what you would want to do now, right? And all of a sudden there is this beautiful bridge, three doorways into questions that we never ask. And I'm going to actually plug this in for you, Angie, because I love you, shared this retreat that you're doing. And friends, I will tell you this. If you try and answer these questions in the context of your day to day work, running from 6, 7 in the morning till 8 in the night, and try and find little moments to find answers to these questions, let me tell you very specifically, you will fail. You will fail. And this is not, this is the most provocative and extreme answer give you. You will fail. You will not be successful. Your agony will continue to go higher and higher. The answer is to give yourself a break, take three to five days, go find yourself in a secluded place in nature, ideally even in the company of others who are on a similar mission and really use that power of A retreat to be able to come find this for you. We cannot do this at the end on afterburners of our life. We need to really step away. It's been the biggest profound change that helped me find my meaning and purpose and that left me to start Happiness Squad. And Angie has an amazing offering, by the way that does exactly that. So I'm going to pass this back to you, Angie, to talk to us a little bit about how these retreats and masterminds that you're creating is really helping people take those three questions, three doorways, but not just to peek in those five minutes, 10 minutes that you have, but to actually create a bridge through them.

It's interesting how when you can look at your, you can look at your own journey in hindsight and realize where the impact or where change came from. And, and you are a hundred percent right that it does not come in the three minutes between tasks. But unfortunately we tend to sell ourselves, quite literally sell ourselves short and not give our own, you know, growth and goal setting and potential, that type of focus. And I do want to touch on that. That regret piece, I think is very, very powerful. And even though in a way it does scarcity or negative mindset, it can very much help. Like let's say I have. This is a very practical example. But a lot of times when I have clients who are evaluating, do I take this job offer or not? I'll say to them, are you. Would you regret leaving for this? Or in three months if you don't get another job offer, are you going to regret taking it? And it almost 99% of the times helps them get the instant clarity because they have the gut reaction to that. Kind of like, ooh, well, what hap. What would I do in hindsight? Right? So if you can fast forward yourself to 80, what is that book, the Six Confessions of the Dying. Nobody ever says, I wish I would have worked more or I wish I would have worked on myself less. Okay, no one says that. And it's very common. I see a lot of people mid career who be coo. You know, we talk about midlife crisis, but I don't think that's what it is. I think when you get to your midlife, you know, now have enough behind you to inform what needs to be ahead of you and to start reflecting and making these change changes. And for me to, to kind of get into this idea of like immersing yourself in nature and tuning out my. One of the things I realize in hindsight is how significant moving to the Mountains of Colorado was for me. So I live in a little hole in the wall in the middle of the mountains where skiing four days a week is extremely normal and running away to the backcountry every weekend is standard. And basically you can be a dirtbag and everybody loves you anyway, right? So in allowing myself to be in these places of no technology and in the beauty and inspiration of nature was so significant to my ability to figure out what my purpose is, what I'm passionate about, and to start tapping into my potential. And this is, that's my purpose is to help people identify their purpose and really pursue the potential. Because we don't. That's that mediocrity thing I was talking about. We reach a fraction of our potential not because we can't, but because we're not intentional to tapping into it. And so purely shameless. Plug. I have a retreat and a mastermind rolling out this fall called Pursue youe Potential. So you get to come and hang out in my little mountain town and see what inspires me and get inspired alongside a community of people who are doing the same. Because there is also a ton of power in that group. And surrounding yourself with that kind of energy can be amazing to the discoveries that you can make.

You know, by the way, Angie, what I will tell you is there are tons of retreats out there. And actually the reason I actually believe in the work that you're doing is not because it's a retreat. It has three elements in it which I truly think are so critical today if we want to complete the bridge and make the journey. The first is, as you said, it is in nature. It is taking time away. Check the box. Lot of people do that. A lot of people offer these things. But there are two other things that you're offering that goes with it, right? And again, friends, this is whether you do Angie's retreat. I think she's amazing, she's a wonderful human being, she's an unbelievable coach or you do it with anybody else. But please, if you're going to give the time, give the time. In this way, the second critical element into completing the journey, completing your hero's journey is nothing changes in three days. It needs to be a journey. So the notion that your program doesn't just. It starts with a retreat, but it's actually a multi month program where you continuously are working on it. So you got to evolve. Transformations happen over time, right? Caterpillars don't turn into butterflies. Three days later, there's a whole process. So that's the Second, and then the third that I really love about the program that you've designed is you can learn not just from the coach who's taking you on the journey and from your own coach within, but you have a whole community of people who are kind of evolving together. So it allows you, through tapping into the collective wisdom of the group, to discover and keep you accountable, to not just come up for great sessions, but actually not change. So I think those three elements together, Angie, of what you have put together in your offering are so, so, so powerful. And hence I highly encourage you to check out what she's doing. But even if it is not Colorado and it's not Angie, for all of those who are in that crisis mode of I don't love my job, I'm just putting up with it, what can I do? Or finding your meaning. Give yourself the gift of a retreat, a journey and a community that you surround yourself with so they can help you transform and from a caterpillar, become the beautiful butterfly that you were born to be.

Well, that was a better commercial than I could create for. Pursue your potential. There is more info@careerbenders.com potential on that. But the way I'm gonna bring that all back to everything we've been talking about around career crisis, questioning your worth, confidence and moving forward through that in an intentional way is you shouldn't do these kinds of things alone. Not only because you often need an outside perspective to help you unlock those things and have that sounding board to talk through it, but because it often takes accountability to really realize the change. And I, and that is one thing I've seen in, I would say how I approach coaching and where I find people are successful is it isn't just a, okay, here's the four step process. Good luck. It's, here's the four step process. Why are we doing the four step process and are you staying accountable to the activities in the four step process over a longer, you know, period of time that it takes to execute on that kind of stuff. So it's a hundred percent accurate to say you can set goals, but you're not going to reach them overnight. And sometimes it takes that little army to support you in, you know, in getting across the finish line.

You know, it's a couple things come to mind when I hear that, folks, when we talk about taking time off, taking a retreat. So one example of a conversation Ashish and I had was, hey, the last thing you should do is learn how to swim when you're drowning. So I think what we need to ask our listeners to do is almost look, you've got a couple options. One, if you've been in an unfortunate situation, you've been laid off, you've got time. And that time can either be spent. You know, like you all said, misery makes great company. Okay, take your time. You know, when the emotion passes, wisdom will remain. You'll think to myself, I need to take a step forward, so what can I do? So we just discussed a couple of options that you have that you can actually take to move forward. Number two, you're actually in a job. You're not happy with it. As we said earlier. You're, you're struggling. You're, you're barely surviving. You're one of that 70% that we talk about who are in that situation. Okay, you need to almost give yourself a pause. Find it. Whether it's on a Saturday, whether it's on a Sunday, whether it's in an evening, one thing each of my friends I've spoken to, Angie Ashish around this space is always a. I just don't have the time. I really struggle to have time in order to do anything above and beyond what I already do. And I'm just like, well, if it's important to you, you'll make the time. If it's important to you, you'll form.

You have the time. You just don't prioritize it exactly right.

And I think, you know, just, just on the back of that, Angie, now that you've said that, could you maybe share an example of a client that you've worked with where you help them move from that meaninglessness to meaning, you know, within their job? You know, instead of just leaving, they're like, okay, this is actually, I'm hitting a wall. This is not what I want to do. This is not where I want to be. Share an example for our listeners to help empower them, inspire them to maybe take that leap.

I love that you asked me this because my best example of that is one of my oldest clients. And I don't mean age. I mean, she's been with me since like month three, and we still periodically work together five years later. And when she came to me, and actually she falls into a few things we've talked about, which I love that, that now I get to bring this all, all together in a real world example. But when she came to me, she was in complete, I would say, career crisis because she was in a job that not only did she dislike, it was so misaligned with her strengths that it was Exhausting her. And so it was taking her toll. It was taking its toll on her mentally, physically and emotionally. And by the way, everyone, if you are in a role or a job that is taking a physical, mental or emotional toll on you, you have to do something different. You cannot stay in it. It is not worth it. No paycheck is worth your health. Okay, psa. So in her situation she was really coming up upon this crisis and she also, and she knew she needed to make a change. It was trying to work on it herself, but she was in total analysis paralysis. This, she had taken every personality testament assessment known to man and then collated all into 175 line spreadsheet where she also cross referenced all the jobs that they, that the assessments tell you you should do based on the output of the personality test. And she sent me six or seven spreadsheets that had hundreds of lines and a million tabs. And she was in like overwhelm, overload information gathering. And I looked at all this stuff and was like, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. And I opened it and was like, well, this is an overwhelming amount of information and closed it and then we threw it all out the window. And she was, she was the one who, we finally came to the conclusion that she was trying to find 120% of her life's meaning and satisfaction and purpose in her vocation and her employment. And that was creating such pressure on herself that no job was going to live up to it, especially one that was so misaligned with her strengths. And just opening like coming across that realization opened all kinds of doors for her. And what ended up happening is we shifted her out of the role she was in and into a different role within the same company. So we were able to get her out of a function that really didn't align and into something that was at least a little bit more manageable before then using that to springboard into a company where the culture was also aligned and the values aligned, which is a big thing if you're an employee. Find a company that has value aligned culture. So it was a multi step process. So the point there is sometimes you need help and sometimes it's you're not going to jump the whole chasm in one fell swoop. You might need to make interim moves or a half step in order to get somewhere you want. You might need stepping stones. And to this day she is so much more intentional and reflective about what she wants to do, what aspects of her professional life are meant to fulfill. And now she's got a diversified situation. She has a part time position doing the job that she's really, really great at and loves. And then she has two other opportunities, two other things that she does. One entrepreneurial and one kind of volunteer based that when collated give her all the meaning.

I love that.

You know, Angie, this is so beautiful, right? Isn't it, Anil? Because it also ties into this notion of straddling, right?

Yes.

You know, in one of our purpose episodes, Anil, I remember when you and I had this conversation. You know, I always say to people, there's this been huge number of people who've quit their jobs, right? They've quit their jobs or they're thinking about quitting their jobs. And I say to them, you know, if you want to find yorikiga what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs and what the world is willing to pay for, everyone should find that. Everyone should find that. But let me ask you a question, dear friends. If you already have a job that you are getting paid for, they probably are. It's a job that the world needs. Because nobody's gonna pay you to deliver something for anybody that somebody else is not willing to pay for.

There's a reason you get a paycheck.

There's a reason you get a paycheck. And by the way, also, it's. It in some shape or form leverages a strength. You might not love what you do, but it leverages some strength that you have, right? So this notion of three out of the four elements of your ikigai are right there if you are employed right now. So why in the hell is your first thing I'm going to leave and go find myself out there? Why not find yourself in here? Make the straddle move. Figure out a way to infuse what you love into the work, either by shifting roles or, you know, by actually taking your own initiative and starting to infuse some of those activities of what you love, even if you don't get paid for them into your current job. And then shift, right? And then shift. But then shift. And I always say to people, shift because you want to move towards something. Don't shift because you're running away from something.

Yes.

Don't run away. Run towards. Because when you run towards, you will be more successful. Otherwise you're going to shift, go somewhere else. You're running away. Guess what you're going to find there? The same thing that you ran away from here.

It's, it's that same notion. And I that is. You took the words out of my mouth. I've said that. I say that to just about every single client I work with. And it's that same thing that, like, you can move across the world, but your baggage is still going with you, literally and figuratively. And I, and I think in this particular situation, this is where we come back to that idea of just stop and don't fall into that knee jerk reaction flight mode. Right. Because, oh man, I only have three of my four icky guys here. Well, are you going to find all four somewhere else or is this a time to stop and be very intentional about what is working, what isn't working? Those are good questions to ask yourself and just take small steps. Or. Or do we say maybe safer steps to explore what's possible versus that. Oh my go. This one thing isn't working. I need to change it all right now. Which is the, the panic button.

Yeah.

I would even add smarter steps. Smarter. Right. The smart.

That's a very good.

They're measuring strategic. Exactly. Yeah.

You know, I. There's something that's been kind of brewing on my mind since we've been chatting and I'm going to take a step back, but I'm going to build on what we just discussed. Baggage. Right. You come out of a relationship, you probably take that baggage from that relationship into your next relationship. So I love what you both just said. Here's an opportunity to resolve or at least explore that baggage before you make that shift or that step forward to that next opportunity. And I think that's a call to action for all of our listeners to just find ways to explore it. I think the second piece goes back to where we were talking about what I use. Ego versus heart. Right? When we all start the first stage of our career or we author the first stage, it's all about success. And everyone has a different definition of success. I'm sure you've heard so many, Angie, and I think that comes from a sense of ego. Right. I want to be a vp, I want to be a CEO. I want to make a six, seven figure paycheck. I want the cars, I want the house I want to provide. But then there's that heart piece that gets maybe lost in that. And I think where I want to take my next question to you, Angie, is around success to significance, maybe share from your perspective, how do you see people learning or at least being open to shifting from that focus on success in that first stage of their career that they've authored to their definition of success as they author that second stage or that next stage of their career.

I love that term and I'm going to steal it because to me that is aware. A lot of those people who follow the career crossroads, or what we used to call the midlife crisis crisis are is they want to move from success by somebody else's definition to their own definition of success. Which is more significant. Although I do have to go back in a second and say if back for a second and say I love that you made a dating and job searching or dating and career analogy because they are infinite. I wrote a whole article.

Right.

It's so fun. But ultimately the point there is your work is a relationship. Both your relationship with the work, your relationship with the company and individual relationships. And if there is trauma in those, it will carry forward that career. PTSD is a term and I'm going to write a book about it. Don't worry, I already own the URL, so y' all can't go steal it from me. Okay. But if you're not very careful and intentional about breaking up with those habits or triggers, they will go forward with you. And, and to tie that into this idea of success versus significance, I think you have to be very honest about what is in those bags in order to reconcile any of that stuff that might go with you to add to it. Really. We, we and I, I won't get, I won't dog too much on like the whole society issues. Ashish and I already did that in the no more Mondays conversation we had, which by the way, we are re releasing right now so that you can listen to both sides of this conversation. But we live in a comparative society more so than we ever have. And I think that that breeds the success mentality over the significance mentality because we want to keep up with the Joneses even more than we did when they just lived next door. Now they're on Facebook, now they're on Instagram, now they're on freaking threads, whatever the hell that is. Right? So they're everywhere. And I think you have to stop right the E. You have to put the ego aside and just be very honest and truthful with yourself on what are your priorities, what are your needs and what are your goals as the human being that you are knowing that if you don't want to be a C suite, that is okay. If you do want to be a C suite, that's all also okay. But you have to understand the motivations of why do you want to be a C suite? Because it'll look really good as your LinkedIn headline and because you'll make $350,000 plus a nice bonus. Or do you want to do that because it gives you the ability to impact the growth of a company, the strategy with which they operate, and the teams who report to you? Those are two. One of those is success by society's definition, and one of those is success in significance. Right. And there's no right or wrong answer to this, but it's really getting inside of yourself and knowing what is important to you so that you can strive for significance and success in your own definition.

Love it. Love it.

Angie, are you ready for a rapid fire to close us out?

Let's do it.

All right, I'm actually going to swap two questions in from what we just chatted about. So the first question I'm going to ask is, when you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up?

I wanted to be an exercise queen, a photographer, or a ballerina dancer. I have to tell you all, I am five foot one with a giant butt. I am not meant to be any three of those things.

You didn't know that at the time. You didn't know it at the time.

You're meant to be all of them, Angie. Exactly. We have to break the definition of who can be a ballerina. You're meant to be. You want to be a ballerina, you will be a ballerina man.

All right, number two, would you choose success or significance?

I think they can coexist.

Ooh.

Okay, cool. Number three, do you find your optimal workflow in the morning, afternoon, or evening?

I wake up at 5:07 every single day. And while I would love to be a human who goes. Who gets up at 6 and goes to bed at 10. I am a grandma who goes to bed at 9 12. I am a morning person.

Love it. The last book that you read or the current book you are reading?

Oh, I love that you asked me this. I just read, and I. So caveat is, I am not a novel. A reader of novels. I read nonfiction and memoirs. I love. And I just, like three days ago, finished Dave Grohl's book storyteller. And I have to tell you, I'm a kid of the 80s and early 90s. I love rock and roll. I love classic rock. I was a teen when spelled like teen spirit came out right. So the nostalgia of this book was amazing. But Dave Grohl is actually a very inspirational human. For all of those who don't know, he's the front man of the Foo Fighters. He was the drummer of Nirvana, which I feel like a lot of people forget. And he refers to himself as that guy from Nirvana because I feel like we're all like, oh, he was that guy from Nirvana. But his. His ability to. He. He found a way to be successful and significant. And even though that is successful, as we would all define it is very, very. In a very humble way and very meaningful to him because he's just so authentically loves music and what he does.

Love it.

And it's a very inspiring book.

All right, I'm jot. I'm going to jot that one down because I'm going to give it a go. I'm add it to the list that I've got. All right, two more last second to last one is when you look at your career, are you about further, faster or slower? Closer?

Oh, that's a good one. I would say that up until about two or three years ago, I was all about fast. Until I realized that sometimes ideating and implementing at speed does not always perpetuate the results. And there's a time and place to. To do. To do things. So I would say both. However, I've moved into a new season.

Love it. Okay, the last question. And by the way, Angie, after you finished answering it, Ashish, I'd love for you to answer it as well. Right. So Angie, you first. You're 80 years old. What do you want to be remembered for?

That I helped people find their purpose and that they don't have regrets.

Awesome, Ashish.

Well, Anil, for me, this is a very simple question. For me, it is truly that I've helped a billion people integrate the science of happiness into their lives so that they have fundamentally changed their relationship with happiness. Where happiness is not an end, they're pursuing by chasing behind success, money, promotions, relationships, better body, whatever it is. But happiness is the means. By practicing and integrating the core skills, the core habits that help us be happier, we are achieving any ends that we put our sights to. Whether it is about touching a billion people, whether it's about raising a great family, whether it is about really somebody who's tasted every wine in the world and has. Whatever it is that you define as your end, I want you to. To achieve it by making happiness the means, not the end.

I love that. Can I want to tie something together, please? It is. Happiness is not a goal. Happiness to me isn't a goal. It's a steady state. And I want to link that back to Anil, that idea of success and significance, because to me, Success is a finish line. Significance is a way of life and.

A way of being. Yes, it's not even a finish line. It's the first milestone to the next. I love it. Angie. Amazing. I knew this was gonna be a power episode. Your energy, your life, your friendship, the amazing work that you're doing are such a blessing to the world. It's so great to call you my friend and thank you for spending your Friday, which I know you don't work, but you decided to spend the time with us and record this podcast for our listeners. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

It was well worth it, my friend. Thank you so much.

Lots of love. Big hugs. Take care, Angie.

Cheers. Bye.

I hope you enjoyed the episode today on the Happiness Squad podcast. Make sure to hit subscribe on your chosen platform that you listen to us on. If this episode made you think of someone, take a screenshot and share this podcast episode with them. Go to www.happinesssquad.com where you can catch the show notes for this episode and learn more about us and the community we we are building. The community is where we gather weekly to practice and connect with other learners, teachers and practitioners working together to unlock our best selves. Lastly, follow along on Instagram yhappinesssquad for tons of behind the scenes as well as short videos designed just for you. It's where we hang out in between episodes once again. Www.happinesssquad.com all links can be found in the description below below. Until next time.