Flourishing Through Work: Leading with Courage and Kindness with Grace Zuncic

If your work has purpose and the people around you have a shared goal to realize those objectives, work is five to 10 times better and we flourish in those environments. But not everybody has them and creating them virtually and sustaining them virtually is a new challenge in a new task that leaders need to be rise to the occasion to accept.

Welcome to the Happiness Squad Podcast. Your weekly dose of practical tips and inspirations through to help you operate at your fullest potential by integrating the science of flourishing into how you live, work and lead. In each episode we will share insights, tips and stories from leading experts, company executives, and flourishing solution providers that you can implement right away to make happiness your competitive edge and find more success. Joy helps love and meaning in everything you do. What if the secret to building high performing companies isn't found in strategy deck or financial models, but in something as simple and profound as courage and kindness? Welcome back to the Happiness Squad Podcast. I'm your host, Ashish Kothari and today I'm honored to be joined by my dear friend, Grace Junket. Grace's story is remarkable. Growing up in a small town, shaped by nature, community and a deep sense of connection, she's carried those values into every step of her career. From Howard Business School to Goldman Sachs. From transforming Chobani into a household name to helping build purpose driven brands like Cotopaxi, Grace has always turned inward, asking not just what am I doing, but is this aligned with who I am Today as Managing Director at Manetree, Grace is leading with courage and kindness, investing in companies that help people live better, longer lives. In our conversation, we'll explore the lessons she's learned about flourishing cultures, why real transformation happens when we align purpose, people and profit, and how relationships and trust fuel both performance through human thriving. I can't wait for you to hear this inspiring conversation with Grace. Grace, I am so excited to have you on our Happiness Squad podcast, my dear friend.

Well, thank you Ashish. I'm very happy to be here and honored that you asked me to participate. So thank you.

Yeah. Well, my friend, you've had such an amazing, amazing journey right through your early childhood days to hbs, to Goldman, to Chobani, to Cotopaxi. I mean, you worked for, you know, companies with flourishing cultures and finally that road led you to monetary right, where the work you all are doing, what the company's about and what you're trying to put in the world. I mean, oh my God, it is such an exciting story and I just want to hear from your own words, right? Tell me a little bit about your childhood and early beginnings. Let's start from there and then walk us a little bit through your magical journey and all that you've learned, you know, through these last decades, in both shaping these cultures and having these cultures shape who you have become.

Yeah, that's great. Well, I grew up in this little town in upstate New York in central New York. A lake that envision a 16 mile long lake, a mile wide, 300ft deep, clean, beautiful lake. And I grew up that was a privilege. You know, we had socioeconomic diversity in our town. Not a lot of racial diversity, but there was an innocence, a purity, a goodness. It takes a village kind of mindset. Walk to school, ride your bike, feel safe, take on four or five different jobs working in town, know everybody by name, don't lock your doors. And that kind of wholesomeness of growing up in a place like that really shaped who I am as a person. I'm kind of like a small town girl since you know, that experience. And every time I go back to Skinny Atlas, I feel more connected to who I really am. And I've been taking my kids there now every summer since they were born. My son's now 10, my daughter's 8, to give them that sense of connection to a place where nature was a huge part of my life, community and doing the right thing. And so it's really impacted my life. My mother grew up on a farm for part of her life. She was the first female district attorney in the city of Syracuse and a very successful environmental lawyer in the area. My dad also an attorney. But they were sort of the first in their families to really build this type of life for us. And forever, forever grateful for it. And the best of me, I think, is always there. And it's great to be able to reconnect with it.

You know, nature, environments in which we live shape us. They provide such an important context. Right around. I just finished reading this amazing book called Shift by Ethan Cross. And he talks around the importance of one of the ways we can shift our emotions or one of the ways in which our emotions and moods get locked in is through the environments we inhabit.

That's very true.

I spent 40 years, 42 years of my life living in big cities right in India with millions of people around, and then obviously in Chicago. When I moved to the US 2014, we moved to Boulder. I sit and work under a tree, this massive 130-year-old fir tree. We are surrounded by mountains, so we don't have the lake. But I have noticed my nervous system just coming down you get into this, you know, sense of deep interconnection to the world around you. So I can just imagine how transformative, right. Just growing up in that feeling of connection, nature, purity, love and safety can be. Because it's not really. I mean, in today's world, not many places like those exist, right.

Or you have to create it yourself. And I continue to be so inspired by nature. You know, there's a bit of history of anxiety and depression in my family, unfortunately, and I think I've been able to sort of mitigate the genetic kind of reality of that through nature. Being outside, walking, gardening. My kids, you know, were outside really for the entire duration of COVID These pictures of them just being outdoors every single day. And what a gift. But not everyone has it, and I don't take it for granted, but it has definitely fueled my energy and my leadership as well. Just like the role of nature and being outside in my life, you know.

And what's so cool about this grace is through all of my research that I've done, by the way, many people listening might say, well, that's great, wonderful. You too, you have access to nature. I don't, so. So I. I'm like one. Thank you. But you know, what we know from research is the following. Get a plant, right? Get a small plant, everybody can have it. You know, some don't even need that much water. But having just a little bit of green space around you.

Absolutely. When I'm in New York City, I'll take the train to Grand Central, but I'll walk all the way to my destination. Put the heels in the bag and the flats, which my husband jokes about all the time. But I will take advantage of those micro moments all the time. Cities, many cities have done a better job reimagining what they can be spaces. I mean, New York City's done. A fan where I live has done a fabulous job with that effort. But there are. There are opportunities all around us. It doesn't have to be the classic, I'm going to go for a hike this morning because I live in Boulder, Colorado. It can be smaller things. And making the decision to walk and be outdoors and immerse yourself in nature, however, what you have access to.

Yeah. And if nothing else, you know what you have access to. Close your eyes and visualize the last place that you were. Transport yourself. Right. For me, it's the Grand Canyon. I still remember I stood at the rim of the canyon and I was right in that moment. First time ever when I went saw the Grand Canyon I was struck by the vastness, the beauty, the timelessness and how little of a time and how little of a space we inhabit. Right. You know, you talk about awe and you talk about, you know, this deep kind of dissolution of self which we focus on all the time versus in the lap of nature. So just go do that for yourself. If you have nothing else, take yourself. I'm sure you've had one moment in nature, it took your breath away. Just do that. Just do that.

Yes. Read Life Goal.

But listen, let's go from there. I want to actually walk us through a little bit of your career journey through all of these, you know, places from HBS forward. And I just want to like walk down the path with you and just savor those moments and the learnings.

That sounds great. You know, when having grown up in a town like I did, I. I was involved in student government and all the things that you might expect. And I thought, well, I'm just going to go work in politics. That's what I want to do for my life. And I went to college and that dream was shifting and fading. And I remember I went to a Jesuit school in Boston, Massachusetts. I went to bc, Boston College. And I was very concerned about like not making it through my freshman year. I had this crazy fear of failure. For me, growing up in a really small town like Skinny Atlas and going to Boston was even a transition and a change. You know, I think I'd visited Boston a couple times growing up. We had family there in the suburbs. But being there, I was concerned about not making it. And that insecurity kind of fueled a tremendous work ethic through my freshman year and sophomore year, junior year, I still remember to this day how much time I spent in the library. And once I had a good grade point average freshman year, I thought, well, I can't turn back now. But I graduated and I didn't have a job. And I felt lost. I actually felt lost for career wise for many years until I found what we'll talk about with Chobani really changing so much of that for me. But I remember not having a job when I graduated and my parents being shocked and going home and working as a waitress and visiting different places to work. But one of the places where I visited was Harvard Business School. And here I am on the campus interviewing to write case studies for the professors. And my dad pulled me aside, looked me in the eyes and said, grace, don't work here, go to school here. And you need people in your life that give you inspiration, that see Something in you. And I honestly never thought, one, I'd go to business school and two, I'd go there. But I ended up going to Harvard Business School. It was a fantastic experience. Graduated, I worked at Goldman Sachs. It recruited a lot of young people out of hbs. They also offered a fabulous sign on bonus which I really needed to pay off my student loans. And, and I joined Goldman in private wealth management which taught me professionalism, work ethic, client service. I gained a lot from it, but I still felt a bit lost. You know, I'm here for a paycheck at the end of the day. Love the firm, feel honored I can even work here. Coming from small town America now to Harvard.

Totally.

And no one in my family had done that before. And I'm sitting there thinking there's something else. I don't know what it is, but it's there and I'm going to find, find it. Sure enough, I called the 1, 800 number. I kid you not, customer service number on the Chobani yogurt cup. That number that's at the bottom, that's oh my God. Yeah. And I thought, well, maybe Chobani will want to do business with Goldman. That seems logical. They're big enough now, they've got a tremendous following. The founder seems awesome. Maybe I get to meet him. And I called that one, 800 number and I made a connection through the executive assistant and over time finally had an audience with the company. And the founder of the company said, grace, I don't know why you should be here. This feels right. And chobani started about 40 minute drive in rural upstate New York where I'm from. I felt a deep sense of emotional connection to the people who worked there, who I've related to. And I thought, well, this is wonderful. And then 10 years I was there and it changed my life in so many ways. I mean, the trajectory of my career, it gave me direction, it gave me purpose, it gave me meaning. Hamvi saw in me things I didn't see in myself, just like my own father did back at the Harvard Business School campus. But the most meaningful thing about it, not only just working beside a founder for part of it and having that experience was growing into my own. And that second part of my time at Chobani, I took on the HR team, which I'm sure we'll talk about today. And the duration of those 10 years, I learned everything from supply chain to building a brand to competitive dynamics to being on top of the world to being on the bottom of the ground. And feeling like we're not going to make it. Capital structure, investors, board members, management teams that come and go, new people, how to take care of people, how to say goodbye to people and welcome others. And it just gave me really put into practice everything I read about in business school all at the same place. Like all things, you know, transition came and I felt so ready to do something different. And I was in the mail room at Chobani and I saw these boxes that said Cotopaxi on them. They were up on the upper shelf, unopened. I think somebody made a big order pre Covid and they just sat there. This is around like 2022. And I thought, huh, why is that box like speaking to me? I better go back to my computer and research what this company is. I wasn't a big Cotopaxi person. I Patagonia, which, you know, everyone was buying and went online and I thought, oh my gosh, what alignment. You know, most of what Cotopaxi makes is made out of non virgin material, repurposed recycled material. 1% of our sales goes to the Cotopaxi foundation, in which I'm still a part. We'll talk about that today. And I thought, this is where I feel like I need to be. I don't know, something's calling me. And so I reached out to the founder this time not calling 1-800-Numbers from desk phones, but on LinkedIn. I was like, Davis, I really admire you. This is so exciting. I'd love to be a part of it. Joined Cotopaxi and helped them during a really important time. When Davis was leaving the business to go on a mission trip with his church for a few years and was there to really support two women who reported to me who are still there and help them grow in their careers, mentored them and I'm so proud that they now do what I was doing. And you know, they, they've placed such critical leadership roles at Cotopaxi and then Manitree Partners, where I am now, I mean, Manitree is doing private equity differently on not just the dimensions of health and wellness and a focused strategy on companies that will truly improve our lives or have the intention of having us live better, longer lives. That's all there. We are also 70% female, which is unusual in private equity. We have all the things that we can speak to that people are intrigued by. But what I'm amazed by is how we actually work with the companies and our level of involvement and care and interest in helping them solve their problems and helping them realize their full potential. In the role at Nana Tree, I have. I wear my HR hat still. That was given to me, a gift at Chobani. I can still wear it for part of my role, but I also spend just a lot of time with the portfolio companies on a lot of different opportunity areas for them to grow and to manage their growth effectively and, and win ultimately. So it's been so great. And people say, well, how did you have such an impact, focused career ultimately? And I always go back to how I felt from that time I left school and at business school, where I did feel a little lost. I wasn't sure where this was all going. So I always give people the encouragement that it takes time for one and two alignment. I think that so much of what I've done with my career is aligned to that small town girl back in Skinny Atlas, you know, and it's kind of like a funny thing that's worked out for me, but I've been intentional about it and I've been extremely lucky and fortunate to have had all this.

Yeah, you know, Grace, what's so powerful about that story is, you know, you are talking about, if I look at the through line, you know, through your career, I think one of the things that sets you apart from unfortunately, so many others is your ability to actually step back, step onto the balcony and tune inwards to say, how am I feeling? You know, in a world today where so many people just live in their head and they're trying to match or more model themselves around external markers of success or what I see as successful careers in order to flourish, in order to be happy. But I think what you're tuning to is the quality that is innate in all of us is to really tune in. Right. And I think that really resonates. I actually spent 20 years of my life, my first, you know, close to actually not 20, from 97 to 2014. So 17 years of my life, frankly, I wasn't listening to my heart. In fact, you know, I talk about this in my book that I started suffering from anxiety around 2014. 15, even though externally in my career everything was going well, which I couldn't name why I was feeling anxious. Anyway, four years into the journey, I actually knew why. Fundamentally, what I was suffering was what Viktor Frankl called a crisis of meaning. I was doing work which is completely not aligned to what I cared about. It had massive impact in the world, right? It solved problems, it generated revenue, it made the people I was serving successful. But that wasn't my work, that was somebody else's work. And now that we are doing this work on flourishing, it's my personal legend. It's what I feel I was born to. Life is different. So I think that's really, really powerful. And I think with you and with Manetry, what is also exciting is the standard is that private equity is cold. It's all about the numbers. We fire people, and we just need to kind of go drive impact. And you are the second private equity firm. Right. And actually, there's something about Colorado. We are working and exploring a partnership with Rally Day Partners, Ryan Heckman, which is also a very different private equity firm. They're founders for founders, and, you know, they have an amazing Rally Day accelerator program that they put all their companies through. So, again, you know, I think it's kudos to you for finding monetary and the amazing work you're doing, because fundamentally, if we can help teams flourish, we know performance shows up combined with strategy. If you just tell them what to do, it's just a hard, painful journey.

That's right. Yeah. It's so great you referenced man's search for meaning, too, because that's a book I read at a young age. And I do think it shaped my life in so many ways. I can't remember all the details of it, but I do remember having the copy of it. And we'll talk more about this, too, but with Manitree, you know, our mission is enabling consumers to live better, longer lives. And it's interesting because I've been studying, you know, what really enables us to live better, longer lives. And there's been a tremendous amount of research on the value of relationships and quality.

Absolutely.

And, you know, it's interesting because when I look at why I joined Mandatory, I had been connected with one of the founders for many years, and I think about the role that, you know, relationships can play in our careers networks. I never anticipated I would be joining her team years later. So it's been amazing. And to also bring these experiences that I've had from Chobani and Cotopaxi and other places, to companies that really admire these brands and they want to be like these brands and. And grow and bring that knowledge here. It's been hugely rewarding.

So let's go there. Talk to me a little bit about these leadership principles and ways of operating, you know, Grace, that you picked up from these companies. What are some things they do really, really well that allow them to drive performance through flourishing cultures?

That's great. Well, two leadership principles that are core to me, I would say, are courage and kindness. You know, I think being courageous in one thing, it's scale and having courage to take a stance, have a position is one thing. But my courage has been more micro. My courage has been more in facing a lot of difficult situations and conversations one on one. And that's how my courage has shown up in my career. I think it's been very important in HR to have this muscle that I flex in particular. But really in a lot of different phases of my journey, I've had to be the one that is the one to rise to the occasion on behalf of the group or the one to take action because I feel so strongly within that we need to talk in order to do the right thing. So I've exercised that muscle a lot. The kindest part is just more of my DNA. It's who I am. And I always didn't know if it would work to my advantage or disadvantage in a corporate environment to be kind, you know, like, how would that show up in the business community? Like, you know, I was never going to lose that element of me. And then I read this book and I actually have a copy here on my desk because I thought it'd be good to show. It called Everybody Matters, which you've probably heard about by Bob Chapman and Raj Sizodia, really wrapped this extraordinary power of caring for your people like family. And it wasn't about. What I loved about this book is that it's not like everyone is going to be in their position, no matter what. People ahead of profitability or people ahead of the purpose of the company. It was how do you get those things to intertwine and work together and the role of leaders to discover and work with people to help them find their highest and best use so that you can put them into roles in which they will thrive and put them into places in which that they will do well. And I love this book and the head of engineering at Chobani actually gave me a copy of this book, which I'll always remember. But it really struck with me that it's. It's a little bit different from people how understand the concept of family in the workplace. It's almost this duty of care that we have to others to help them realize the best versions of themselves through the organization and putting them where they need to be to make that happen. So that's how I've translated courage and kindness practically in the workplace. And it's been really rewarding and I've really been able to show up this way. And every company I've worked with, which I Think says a lot about the organizations and the cultures that they promote and foster as well.

Well, I think what's also been true about your companies is a very heavily purpose orientation. They all stand for something, right?

Yes.

And if you're going to walk the path of purpose. Right. If you're gonna walk the path of purpose, you need courage. And I think that's where the Nietzsche coat that is in Richta Frankl's book is very powerful. Those who have a why can survive anyhow. And courage. To walk that path, especially in the dark, stormy nights when things feel like, oh my God, like should we take a different route or something else, but you stay true to it, needs courage. And I think kindness is so powerful. The research around the power of kindness, you know Monica Verlin and Jane Dutton's work around compassionate workplaces. You know, the work by Bob. I've read that book. I love that book. When we are kind. Kind is not about. I think often people when they think about kind, they think about it as soft because they don't think about some of the most kindest things that we can do for people is to really give them the feedback they need to grow rather than tell them everything is great.

Yeah. Kindness is clarity. I mean, I've heard that before. A friend of mine gave me that line. I think that that's very true. I agree with that.

And I think when we are kind, right. When we help. And I loved your notion of helping people find their place. Ray Dalio in Principles talks about it. Our job is to discover each other's strengths. And as long as we have radical candor and radical openness and integrity, we find a way to help you get to what will be your biggest version. It was also the core part of my make flourishing your competitive edge talk. Right.

Waiting for you to say that.

I'm like, I don't get it. You know, Grace, I just don't get it. Like, we are living in this mass hysteria of work is just a way to earn a paycheck. I'm like, that's where we spend 90,000 hours, right. That's where we spend most of our time. If we want to flourish, relationships really matter. But second is how you spend your days and how can you flourish if you're suffering through most of your day.

Right. And most of the day translates into the rest of your day. Because many people who are struggling and feeling lost or bringing that home to their partners and spouses and family members and they're talking about it, it never ends. And we're Always on and everything's blinging and dinging and our phones, especially for those working remotely, even those who aren't. And it's a never ending component of our lives. And so you have to have comfort in what you're doing. A sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, a sense of connection. Because the flourishing will happen through the work. I mean, I know we're going to talk about this today, Ashish, but I'll bring it up now, please. You had asked what programs and initiatives are fostering, you know, flourishing in the workplace. And I've probably seen every single type of benefit program offering under the sun that's trying to help people with mental health and well being in the workplace. EAP programs, apps, you know, groups after work, leadership development programs, coaching programs, upskilling programs are all good to have and nothing. Especially in hr. There are a few things that feel as rewarding as an individual employee knocking on your door, coming to you, saying, I just wanted you to know I'm using that program and I wanted to thank you so much for putting the money behind it. So I'm not saying we don't do these things, but ultimately we flourish through the work.

Yes.

Is everybody rowing in the same direction? Do people feel a great sense of commitment and support from the people who are on their team? Do they, we care about one another, to acknowledge days off and acknowledge, you know, time with family. Do we laugh together? Do we have joy? Do we experience that as a team? Do we cry together? I mean, I shed a lot of tears and joy and laughs during the hardest year of a lot of our careers, which was Covid, which I hope we talk about today as well. But that's the magic. You feel it daily that you can't imagine its absence in your life. And it's all tied to relationships and it's tied to the things that make us live better, longer lives, which is the beautiful thing about it. But that, you know, if you, if your work has purpose and the people around you have a shared goal to realize those objectives, work is five to 10 times better. And we flourish in those environments. But not everybody has them. And creating them virtually and sustaining them virtually is a new challenge and a new task. I think as well that leaders need to be rise to the occasion to accept.

Yeah, I think what you're talking to, I think this is where we find so much alignment. I think what you're talking to is the whole reason for our why. Right. I mean, I'm like, we are spending close to $200 billion today on mental health, because we care about mental health and most of that money is going on the fringes of the problem.

That's right.

Which is I want to give meditation apps and gym memberships and all of this stuff on the left or I want to do EAP on the right and I want to give therapists and et cetera to address burnout. As you said, all well and good. Right. I think they have a role, but in doing so we are actually fundamentally not addressing the elephant in the room, which is the ways we work are fundamentally broken. And I'm not being alarmist on it, I don't know how else to say it, when the research from Oxford clearly shows only 20% of people are thriving in the world. Right. I mean, when 20% thrive, that's not a incremental problem. That's actually a fundamental gap in the way our workplaces have evolved, which are often the job is to grow shareholder wealth. Purpose is nice on some plaques and values, all of the elements. We don't treat people kindly or we treat them just as resources. Your job here is to kind of get work done. There is low level of trust. Trust is at an all time low. Right. And I think we're just overloading our work. So I think what you talked about has so much resonance to say, if we want people to flourish, if we care about their mental health, let's help them flourish through work, not outside of it.

Agreed. And the worst emotion to have in the workplace is fear. You know, when people are like too afraid to say how they're feeling about something or they walk into a room and they're so concerned that like somebody's just going to go on their ideas and people in positions of leadership and power, I don't think really internalize what it feels like to be across the table from them or in the room with them. But if you can remove that and you start to put in trust and recognition and acknowledgement and a spirit of togetherness and everyone having a clear role and kind of a part of the puzzle that you're building together and they know their part and they're doing it well and everyone's contributing at their best. I mean, those are the magical moments. And not all of them have had, not all of us have had them in our careers. But when we do, we know what that feels like. We remember them, we remember that and we talk about it fondly with our kids, about the best decade of our work life or the best two years of work work. And you had asked like when did work feel purposeful for you and to talk about COVID for a moment. COVID 19. It's hard to talk about it because we lost over a million lives in our country. And so for me to sit here and say, oh, but that was the year I felt so fulfilled in work because I had such a strong sense of purpose every single day I was in like this virtually, or we were in meetings with masks on. And we had a goal of just keeping people safe and keeping the business humming. And it was incredibly motivating. It was just so clear. And everybody wanted to contribute to that goal and everybody. I saw people do some of the best work of their entire duration that they had been at the company and just all come together. It was magical and everybody mattered. So going back to that book, that was clear and we did so much good from it. I mean, we were named the most innovative company in North America by Fast Company number one because of the human centric approach to the work through the pandemic. And I always wondered, you know, does it take a crisis to bring this out in people? Because everyone was like their best self. We had our hard days for sure. And there was a tremendous amount of work policy writing procedure done before that had to be developed by our team. And there was this great unknown hanging over us. But through it, so much good came from it. And I think the. I know how rewarding that is. So. So that was a year I felt inspired every day in a way and motivated because my role was so clear and it was so important. And if we can recreate that, you know, for people at a team level, at an individual level, I just think about the results of that would be phenomenal.

We hope you're enjoying this episode and would love your help in spreading awareness and furthering our mission to help a billion people rewire for happiness. Please consider leaving us a review and sharing this podcast with others in your personal and professional life who you feel could benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend and spread positivity. Also, check out Rewire, our proprietary offering to move you from knowing to doing on the Happiness Squad website, www.happinesssquad. rewire uses the science of habit formation and the power of community to help you build happier habits in five minutes or less daily. Now back to the episode. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I'd never thought about it this way, but in the. In just how you articulated and especially with the book. Yeah. In the midst of COVID I remember March, right. I Have my calendar, actually, it was quite. I still have that calendar with me from 2020. And so, Grace, you're going to laugh. Jan, Feb. March, there was a city on almost every day of that Monday to Friday calendar. Sometimes a different city, sometimes three cities in a week. And so like, everything was kind of da, da, da, da, da, da. And then I remember March 12th and after that, for the rest of the year, my calendar was empty. And I really use the calendar mostly because, you know, it's the only thing that on a paper shows you where I am, you know, outlook and all those. You can't really get that view. But in a paper calendar, that's big. You know, of course, with photos of. I mean, it's my. My family always gets me a photo with all of our calendar with our photos, so I always keep that. But, you know, it was the first time I had actually stopped in that big of a way to just be home.

Yeah.

And that allowed. There were two or three things I'm remembering about that period. Right. But in that moment, it didn't matter what kind of a leader you were, what kind of a company you were, which side of the spectrum, you know, you felt on. I just want to make a lot of money or I am not for profit or I really care about people. Everybody, everybody in that moment was focused on the people.

Yes.

And everybody, whether they liked it or not, saw the work and life barrier disappear because we were dialing in from home. And everybody was in this shared experience of adversity that was way beyond us in that moment. Right. And so what it unlocked was magical. What it unlocked was literally everybody matters. Everybody's oriented around how do we keep our people safe and we move forward. And yeah, like, you know, it took a crisis to get there, and I hope it doesn't take another crisis to remind us because I do see so many people moving away, you know, from just that beautiful moment in hardship, but united together that it created.

Yes, I entirely agree. And the shift from a. We were so committed to the people for X number of years through Covid. Now we got to get back to business and get back to the focus on profitability. But I think the two can work together if that was lost for particular industries. And certainly many industries were deeply impacted by the impacts of COVID and face turnarounds and changes. But the dynamics of people really leaning into their work, as I saw it, experienced it, were inspiring. Yeah.

So look, you know, I think sometimes all of this work. Right. So you and I are converts. We believe in this we walked our path. You walked this path a lot longer than I have, Grace. Right. I am a new convert. Like when I talked, literally, I was presenting before my TEDx talk, I was at an HR conference and I literally said to everyone, look, I want to just share this talk with you, give me input. Because many of these people like 25, 30 years CHROs at like Fortune 500 companies, I'm like, you've lived the walk. I am like just 10 year acolyte, right on this, on this pathway. So please tell me where this doesn't make any sense or guide me into how to make this more powerful. And I think in private equity, it's almost like the growth edge, right? The cutting edge of this work. So many organizations and leaders say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it in my head, two to three and a half percent higher shareholder returns, all of this data on higher profitability, productivity, shareholder returns from flourishing cultures. I get all that. I get it in my head. But still in my heart I'm like, I gotta go drive profits, I gotta go drive this. This is what I mean. They're operating from a place of fear, right. Because of quarterly targets, sure. Et cetera, et cetera. What I'm curious about is, by the way, and nobody lives this more than the private equity world with the focus on scale and metrics. So what I'm curious about, and this is the question I often get, is how do you actually balance, right, quantitative impact with qualitative culture? Building internally, of course, at Manetry and across your portfolio companies, how do you keep that flame alive?

Right. So I've been fortunate to serve on a number of different boards or be in a boardroom when these conversations are happening. I don't think private equity firms fully understand how deeply they impact the culture of the company. What they're advocating for in the boardroom, the pressure that they might be putting on the CEO or the management team, that all trickles down, you know, and people feel that within the organization when, well, private equity is driving this agenda with the company and everything's changed. It's not like how it used to be around here. Right. Or there's a sentiment within the business that it's coming from our investors. The purpose of it is to deliver returns, drive growth, help companies and founders realize the original intent of their businesses, realize the full purpose. But doing that with a weak culture is not going to happen. And usually boards and private equity are not, are talking about culture when it's an issue versus continuously, group boards are talking about it more continuously. They have the expectation that they're going to see engagement results. They're going to meet with the head of HR and know what they're thinking. And the pressure on organization to make culture aligned with what the business is trying to achieve really comes from everyone. It cannot just be this one individual that's accountable to the board on all things culture. They come into the room and then they leave. So I think we need to hold ourselves more accountable in private equity to, at a minimum, understanding the culture and the metrics around the culture, whether it's, you know, monthly engagement. I like weekly engagement. And I've heard you speak to that too past a sheer philosophy on that and advocate where it makes sense. So that's how I've come to understand it and understand that transitions within a management team can deeply impact the culture. When changes happen at the top of the organization, that the whole organization can feel it depending on company size. But this is something I think we are spending a lot of time on at Manitree, to really invite conversations around the organization, around engagement, around ensuring that roles are linked to what we're trying to achieve for the business in ways that are much more upfront in the investment cycle than just showing up periodically or showing up when those three things combined are an issue for the organization.

You know, it's so interesting to me, right? Absolutely. The impact people are blind to or turn a blind eye to. Sometimes they can see people who are called the smartest guys in the room and then Enron guys and like, whatever. I think private equity guys also think they're the smartest guys in the room. Right. Sitting from the top just. I think it's easy, you know, look, I walked the path and I've spent three years building the company. I've learned the hard way how easy it is to create ideas, how hard it is to execute it right through. But what I find so interesting, I've had eight conversations with some of the largest private equity firms in the last one month. Right. And everybody basically is focused on when they are right. Hey, we want to hire the right CEO and the team, and then we want them to drive the impact. But then they have all of these targets. And my question is, number one, you have more investments in your human assets than physical assets.

That's right.

So what is the state of your human assets? Do you know? They're like, well, we don't care unless it's a problem. Exactly what you said. We don't worry about it. I'm like, but why would you not? Because every strategy, it's the people who.

Execute it 100% and sometimes too much of a narrow focus on particular roles. They're very important. But a lot of amazing people who are in my type of role in private equity are really there ultimately for assessment of individual capabilities and talents and recruitment of individual roles and skills at a particular level. Yeah, and those things are important. But it's the integration of all of that in the overall culture and the well being of the work workforce. How people are going along on this journey with us. Against the investment thesis, not just at the board level, but the whole organization.

The whole organization, exactly.

And I think that's something that gets lost and in part. And I'm new to private equity as you know, but you know, it makes such a difference when you've worked in a company before and you're like, I know what it felt like, I know what this is going. And that has been really amazing about Mantree because we have a number of of people at the organizations that have been operators and they're like, well, I know how this is actually going to play out in the organization because I worked for one for 20 years and this is what's going to happen. And I think people that just build a career only in private equity, they're great on deals, they're great on the technical, they can financially engineer, come up with all these different options and strategies on paper, but the actual work of it. You know, I am so grateful I waited to get into private equity now because of my experiences and what I've been able to do.

Because you've lived it.

Yeah, it makes a difference.

It's a lived experience. We had a word for this math that I often see play out. We used to call it Cowboy math. Right. 1,002,000,000 growth, 10% profit. Right. X. Okay, here's the math, here's the algorithm. We need to do pricing, we need to kind of open some new markets and oh, by the way, let's make this investment. And I think as long as we go do that, by the way, let's assess the team and let's recruit and give them this. And then we're just going to meet every quarter and we're going to just push and make sure things are happening. Right. That's the model. That's the model. Let's be clear, for 80%. But it's missing exactly what you just highlighted. Number one, what percentage of the organization is touched by the leadership executive team. Less than 0.1%. Right. In fact, when we researched burnout and flourishing, well, being only about 10% of well being and like about 2% of the organizational factor is actually everything that's happening is in the middle. Right? Everything is in the middle. Point number one.

Yeah.

But I think the second big thing there is low. You go back to the Chobani story, right. So little focus actually on development of the talent, understanding where the gaps are, putting people in the right roles. Great. You want to do pricing, procurement and manufacturing transformations as your three big levers and maybe some potential product line extensions that you're going to go drive. But it's your people who are going to execute them. Right. And if they're stuck in, they can't collaborate, they don't find meaning. There is not a lack of prioritization or alignment.

Correct. You're not going to.

Good luck. Good luck. You're going to get an outcome at least. It'll take a lot harder and a lot longer.

Right.

And so really focusing in on that human asset piece is, you know, I think is actually such a loss in private equity because I don't believe capital markets. It's really hard when you are public to be able to do this work beautifully. But in private situations where you have a four plus year holding periods, you truly can transform. And I go back, Grace, to what you said. Help the company reorient to their original why that purpose that actually started this journey and use that and build a culture that allows people to grow and become the best version of themselves and of the company.

And then yes, and especially in growth private equity, which is where, you know, mandatory plays. The importance of this and it's in whether the exit optionality is a public offering or it's a strategic sale. I mean to be working in your early days building engagement strategies, measurement tools, team level, you know, interventions with coaching, leadership assessments, 360s. Doing that early, earlier in your life cycle will just prepare you for whatever's coming down the road with bigger company expectations.

Absolutely.

And so introducing those concepts earlier on in the life cycle of a company is something that we're very focused on.

I love that. So look, you've served on a lot of boards. You've served on the King Arthur Baking Company, you are on the Cotopaxi Foundation. Talk to me a little bit around how your board experience has fed back into your human centered leadership approach.

Yeah, I mean I, when I was, you know, at my desk, in my desk life, job life, you know, and I still have that life, I had this intention, I think in my early 30s, like I really want to be on a board and I get calls a lot. How did you get on your first board? How did you make it happen? And I question, like, well, why is it for my resume? Like, why is this so important to me? Is this just like another mountain I'm climbing? But you know, again, there needs to be alignment. And I set that attention out into the universe. And I think it took me 10 years until I just got this call from an organization called Women on Boards. They are very focused on improving representation of women in the boardroom and of all companies to have it be King Arthur. I mean, what an honor. I thought about this once I got the outreach. I just hoped and hoped about this, that this would work out because it felt so right. I had been baking with King Arthur's since I was a little girl. With my mom always using the product. We were trained to think that is the only flower you buy. Nothing comes closer in comparison. And I had, you know, grown as a core customer. And it's been amazing. That's a 230-year-old company that's 100% employee owned B corporation that still is tirelessly focused on serving its core customer, innovating, doing big things, taking risks, and serving its employees and its people. And to be in a boardroom with a lot of, to be honest, gender diversity, age diversity, racial diversity, it's awesome. It's such a gift to be able to be on that board and to have that be my first board opportunity versus something I wasn't excited about to check a box so that I could be on another board sometime. So that's been great. The Cotopaxi foundation is an honor too. I mean, it's a non for profit board and it's not something that Davis needed to offer to me. When I decided to go to Manitry, I mean, I could have just. It's wonderful. And the best part about it is that the executive director and a couple of the board members are people I used to work with. They were on my team that I was managing. So I get to see them once a quarter. I get to see Davis and feel a strong connectivity there. I mean, that's really translating the 1% of revenues from Cotopaxi to meaningful grants to people living around the world in extreme poverty, notably in Latin America.

Wow.

And we're working with a number of organizations there that are really systems changers and they're doing amazing work in education, livelihood, healthcare, sanitation projects. And it's exciting and it's a great reminder for me of the good that business can do and the, the purpose and just Great to continue to be a part of that organization. And then for Manitry, I'm on some boards, too. I'm on the board of Good Culture Cottage Cheese. Like, what a. What a great experience that's been. And to be able to bring my experience to a board boardroom as an HR person, too, I mean, that's another thing. Mana Tree has been able to unlock just the importance of this that they'd ask me, you know, and I've been really fortunate to have that experience as well.

You know, I'm going to reflect something to you back, you know, because, Grace, you'll be like, ashish, come on. I'm like, you know, I think. But this is the reality. Right. As you say, even as a HR person, too, in the end, everything we create is human. So you're not just an HR person. Right. I think there is this, you know, there is this story of I'm just hr. No, you are. Like, there is no function more important if we truly play the role of being the advocates for our people and helping grow people. The problem is most HR people are not like you. They think their job is right. I'm going to run a training program. I need to write the policy. I need to make sure we don't get into trouble. But they're not really playing the role like what you're playing of kind of really being the advocate, being the guide, being the counselor on the importance of culture and really elevating humans. Every organization. I think this is the crazy thing about business. Every business is built by humans. Right. And human resources is the most important role. If we play that role, and you play that in spades, my friend.

Oh, that means a lot. I think Manetry and I give Ellie Rubenstein and Ross Iverson, Steve Young, Allie Patterson, the partners there. I'm so. I'm grateful to them because I think they see this role differently.

Absolutely.

I want to demonstrate to Growth Private Equity that it's so much more than ensuring a slot and recruiting, and that will save you on recruitment costs or that will put you into a Hogan assessment. It's become so much more than that. And the dialogue that we're fostering with our operating partners who help us on the boards that we're managing, that the CEOs can come to me and work directly with me on things that they might be, you know, confronting with their own management teams. It's bringing it all together and raising the conversation in the boardroom about engagement and how people are really doing and do we have. Are people's. You Know, highest, best use the line, do. How would we answer that question and inviting that dialogue versus, you know, how did we do last quarter on the gross margin improvement we were expecting? And did you make it or not?

Did you make it or not? Exactly.

So this is just this whole different layer of it. And I've reflected a lot on this. I have worked with incredible people in hr and they taught me so much. And, you know, I had a team of about 50 people, you know, at Chobani, smaller team at Cotopaxi. And I wouldn't say this about our team, but in looking at the market kind of holistically around HR now being a part of a lot of different HR networking groups and associations, I think, unfortunately, HR leaders are sometimes and maybe often too focused on process over progress. And progress is like my middle name. And I am not. If I don't make progress in a day, I feel it. I'm too hard on myself when it comes to that. But it's a huge motivator for me. And sometimes I think that gets in the way of HR leaders really realizing their ability to walk into really any business context and have more of a human strategy language. And I know it's within a lot of HR leaders. They've seen so much and they've been exposed to so much. But that unlock is something that has to be, you know, from within and kind of a muscle that's built that I have worked really hard to build with the HR leaders I've worked with over the years as well.

And goes back to what you said earlier. Right. Most people who get into this care about people. That's why they get into this.

Oh, a hundred percent.

But the system beats you down to kind of play a much smaller role. I am just HR. I am just HR, right?

Yeah.

@ some point you just say, okay, fine, I'll just do what I have to do.

Exactly right.

But it goes back to, I think in especially today's world, we have to play to our fullest strength, and we have to do that through those two things you highlighted that your leadership journey taught you earlier. Courage. Courage to stand. And somebody says, okay, you get 15 minutes on my agenda to do your leadership thing and then go away to say, no, don't do it. Don't do it. By the way, if you're not gonna role model what I'm training, don't do it.

Right.

I think the courage to have the hard conversations and the kindness. And the kindness. Right. With which to invest in our people to share the truths that need to Be shared courage and kindness and to walk the path. I think they're so critical and I think we have to ground ourselves back on those.

Yeah, I agree. Well said.

Well, my friend, you know, I don't know if you've read. You know, I love reading books.

Yes. And you remember them.

I remember them.

You read lines and quotes and that's your mind. You're brilliant.

So this weekend I read a book and I want to give that as a gift to you. I'll bring it over if you haven't. You might already know about it. But I was looking. So this weekend, this past weekend, I was looking for which book to read and it was actually quite meaningful because it was literally my 700th book in my last 10 years. Right. So I really wanted this book to matter. I really wanted it to matter. I didn't want to just read an old book again, even though I've read Man search for meaning 50 times, I've read you are here 15, 20 times at this point. And I had a conversation with Rich, who runs this amazing firm called Menlo Innovations in Michigan, and he talked to me about this institute called the Tugboat Institute, which was started by this venture capitalist who basically got tired of the venture capital world that really got heralded from the Netscape world of just go fast, you know, grow fast. Earlier, the model was reduce risk, build profit, and then scale. And then it just became grow, grow, grow. Who cares about profit? And get fast, scale fast and sell out and you're done. And he wrote this book, it's by this guy, David Wharton, and it's called Another Way. And Another Way is really based on his research around what he calls evergreen companies, companies that have been around for 200, 100 plus years.

King Arthur's.

King Arthur's. Like, that's what kind of brought to me and you know, I'm curious what you'll find is I was reading that and one, I was actually quite excited that the book found me because it reflected back to how we are trying to build happiness squad around the principles. But these companies had these four or five things that I think they will resonate with you a lot. They were all purpose driven. They were all people centric. They all had perseverance of sticking through the hard times and walking the path. Many of them were private. They decided to fund from within because they knew what external pressures would do. It was all about growth that was paced. So we're not trying to go for like, you know, and every, every business has a certain natural intrinsic growth. It can support. So there were many of these principles, and I looked at them, and I was like, oh, my God, that's amazing. So you should get a copy of that book. I'll actually get one for you.

Oh, how great. When we see each other, I will love to read that and think about that in the context of what private equity is trying to achieve, which is a good thing. But how can these ideas marry together? Oh, I will be reading that.

And, I mean, there are amazing companies in there. Right. So many people think, yeah, that's all great, fine, and dandy, but is that small companies? No. So one of the largest evergreen companies is enterprise. The largest. $26 billion in revenue. Right. For its. And training Wegmans.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And there's so many of these. And I was like, oh, my God, this is unbelievable. King Arthur is one of those. And if they're not, they should join this and actually spread the word. Well, my friend, just. We can talk for hours. Really, we can. And I think it's so exciting I'm gonna see you here in October shortly.

I'm looking forward to that. Yes.

And one intent I hold in my head and my heart and my spirit is for us to really, you know, figured out a way to partner and even take this whole field from engagement to flourishing.

Yes.

Right. Together. Like how you. How do you actually put flourishing? If we know our human assets matter, how do we actually focus and use that as something we can measure and scale and grow to make things happen? But before we go there and before we make that happen, I want to know. You can't make companies flourish unless you're flourishing.

Yes.

And flourishing doesn't happen in days where your calendar looks like a game of meeting bingo. Right. Where you're back to back. I mean, you are one of those people who's got so much going on. Right. You're on boards. You have your role within Manetry. You have your role with companies. You have an amazing family. Right. You're unbelievable. Your role as a daughter. We talked about it over the last weekend. How do you. What is your approach to fueling your cup? Right. To filling your cup, to fueling yourself that allows you to play all of these roles with just, you know, this unbelievable caring spirit that you are.

Oh, that means so much to me. You know, the little secret about me is that I'm very hard on myself internally, and I don't take criticism always well because I feel like I'm trying so hard. And that goes with my relationship with my brilliant husband, to my kids. To my team at Manitree, to everyone I interact with. But I've gotten a lot better. But I've recognized it as a weak point that I have the things that I need to be constantly inspired. Talking to people like you, reading, being out in nature, which how we opened up this conversation. Social media is tough because there's not much there for us. It's pretty empty. Something's lasting and interesting. But for the most part, you know, the thing we take for granted completely is our time. It is so critical. I lost my brother in law, you know, young man in his mid-40s back in November. Two young kids, beautiful wife, lived out in the Denver area. Suddenly I was with really good friends in D.C. when he passed away. And I thought, my gosh time, I thought I was going to have two more decades with Neil in our family life. What a loss. Like it was so hard for all of us. And this conversation about time and how we spend our time has become very dominant in my marriage because this is my brother's only sibling that he lost so suddenly. And like, you know, are we spending it right? Why are we waiting? Let's do things now. And that isn't an extra hour on Instagram at night. That's like calling my mom. That's planting the garden in the backyard I've been talking about forever that I still haven't planted. That's like taking an hour to go for a walk and listen to one of your amazing podcasts on the walk. Because why not walk and listen to podcasts or run and listen to podcasts and so really thinking about that. You know, it's funny, I went to local community theater one night last week. I haven't been that inspired. It was awesome. All these people. Like, I forgot how amazing community theater is. Like things like this in our life and we need to connect with them because they bring out things in us more so than other distractions. And that's been really important for me. Progress is huge. We talked about that. I have to feel like I'm always making it in some dimension of my life and just being there for people and showing up as best I can. I have one on ones sometimes that are hard. I give disappointing news. You know, people expected more. You know, it is, we're delivering a message or they're, they're overjoyed and I'm overjoyed with them or something happened to them. That's difficult. And I'm showing that empathy. I need to be on most hours of my day for the people I'm interacting with. And that can be tiring too. And so these resets that I have in my life with nature, baking, volunteering, all super important. So thank you for the question. I'm lucky because I feel very loved as a human being. I have felt loved at work, I have felt loved by my family. I feel very loved by my children, by my parents. And that fuels me and I want to give that to others.

Yeah. Well, my friend, from the first time I met you, take this as a, as a reflection, as a gift for you. I think we all have our senses, you know, we have a core essence of who we are beyond our names, the titles, you know, where we grew up, all of that. And I've always experienced your essence as love.

Thank you.

And so I just wanted to reflect that back to you.

That means a lot. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing such a rich experience and thank you for being this shining light and the fighter for flourishing and humans, you know, in the workplace through your rich experience, through these companies and now with Manetry, with every investment that you all are making, you know you're transforming lives for your consumers. But for through the employees of the companies, that's the goal. Grateful to know you, Grace. Appreciate you.

I'm grateful to know you, Ashish. Thank you for today.

That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love and meaning. Please consider leaving us. Review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember, happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week.