How Founders Can Flourish Without Burning Out with Lisa Mikkelsen

Welcome to the Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I'm Ashish Kothari, your host and each week we'll dive deep with flourishing experts, change makers and executives to share best practices that can help you unlock higher performance through science based interventions. Let's step together into the edge of what's possible and live, work and lead with more joy, health, love and meaning. Lisa, thank you for joining us. It's so lovely to have you all the way from Denmark today. I appreciate you joining us.

Thanks, Ashish. It's great to be here. Great to see you.

Yeah, well, my friend, I want to dig right in. You've spent so much time, you're so passionate about mental health. Flourish Ventures is all about mental health. Founders, what do you think are the biggest barriers that keep founders and leaders from truly flourishing as they're building companies?

Yeah, I think at least what I've seen, especially with founders, early stage founders, big barrier, a major barrier is image management. And as a founder, you're supposed to kind of project this image that you've got everything figured out, you've got everything under control, you can't show any sort of weakness. And I think sometimes that's really dangerous because if there is something going on, there's not really a way to capture that. Yeah, so that's, it's an issue I think also with, you know, funders too. So a founder might be kind of hesitant to share information with a funder because they're afraid that, you know, funding might not be continued or the funder would lose faith or trust in them. So there's really kind of a, I would say a fear there.

Yeah, it's interesting, right? So you highlight this notion of. It's almost like the image that comes to me is like a duck, like feet paddling as vigorously under. But you want to be able to portray calm and you're in control at the top, right?

Totally.

And, and yet, right. The birthing of a company, right. The growth of a company, it's, it's basically a business or it's an idea looking for, you know, should it exist, can it exist? There is so much that's actually not in control. And so you're almost living this fake news, right? You're living this portraying a reality that doesn't exist. And there's a belief that everybody else kind of is buying this. They think it all exists. So I gotta make it happen. And what would become possible if we just really were vulnerable to say, hey, listen, I have an Idea. I'm passionate about figuring it out. I haven't got it figured out and actually have a different pathway.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that sort of approach and that openness and vulnerability lends ourselves to more of a growth mindset anyway where we're like, you know, hey, I'm mostly believe in this, here's what I think. But obviously there's these other things that might go wrong. So just sort of demonstrating a flexibility and ability to sort of recover if things don't work as planned and not needing to have all the answers. I think sometimes just being wrapped up in that really gets us sort of too committed to an outcome instead of the process of building.

Yeah, for sure. I want to get your take on this, Lisa. So I've thought a lot about this. I'm deeply passionate about flourishing. I'm deeply passionate about how we actually help individuals rewire their brains and how do we away from fear and how do we help organizations as teams operate at a much higher potential. I've always thought about this though for startups, right. Especially in let's say the 0 to million or even a 1 million to 10 million journey. Right. And I was thinking about this and this is what I would love your reflections. I was reflecting on the Maslow's hierarchy. Right. To some extent we are all living in a world a lot us are, you know, we are in the western world where all those basic needs of safety and food. Right. Are all kind of met. Right. For those who are kind of in the space and then you're into relationships and then into self actualization and you can do a lot of these things because you're not in survival mode, like literally like how am I going to put food, how am I going to get safety, how am I going to take care of my family, those around me? And I find that if I put myself now, even though that is the reality, that's the bigger pyramid, that which we are living in in a startup. I find often you're back into kind of a smaller pyramid where you don't know if the business is going to work. So like you're literally at the base of the pyramid now if you're able to anchor onto the bigger pyramid where you actually have a lot of these things, I think there's a lot that becomes possible. But I often find people get so myopic into like, yeah, there's not enough and so yeah, I'll sleep when I know that the business is going to exist tomorrow or I'm going to like not work crazy hours or I'm going to be civil and I'm going to be all of those things once I get to that next level. And I'm curious about that for you and if you see that often and how you actually help people kind of break away from that mindset of this really myopic. I think you're forgetting where you are.

Yeah, I mean, I think you're really highlighting the crux of the issue for entrepreneurs who are, you know, in this hierarchy where they really have a hard time getting fundamental security on a lot of things. So, one, they're doing something that's probably highly ambiguous. There's a lot of change. There's a lot of unknowns. Another thing is they, many of them take a financial loss or a pay cut to start their own thing. So they don't even have the sort of financial securities that maybe they once had with their corporate jobs. And on top of that, they have added responsibility and sort of the weight of the world on their shoulders. So I often think of them as just like, you know, can't care for myself because I've got these 50 people or 20 people or 100 people to take care of and my investors. And it's sort of. There's so many other things that get you to this point of saying, like as you just said, Ashish, you know, I'll sleep later. You know, I'll take care of this thing later when the time is now. And you know this because you know how the brain works and how the body works and how the mind and the body works work together. And if you're not having these cycles of rest, if you're not able to regenerate, your creativity tanks, your ability to communicate tanks, all of these negative elements sort of come out.

Yeah, you're on a fast path to burnout. Like, you're operating at 30, 50% at a time when you really need your fullest.

Yeah.

You know, like fullest creativity. But my friend, so tell me a little bit, how did you. Tell me a little bit about your origin story. A bit. And what life experiences and turning points led you to center your work. Like flourishing shows up and mental health is like such a big part of your mission and what you do individually, you speak about, what were those moments, those pivotal moments that shaped this mission for you? Lisa?

Yeah, I mean, I think professionally, you know, having spent 25 years in startups, either at a startup myself or in venture capital working with startups, I've just seen so many situations where, you know, me coming in as an HR advisor or, you know, some kind of operator hearing about issues. But really when you start to look under the hood or dig a little under the surface, you find out, my gosh, it's not even that problem at all. There's something deeper going on here and just the prevalence and the amount of kind of difficult situations around mental health, it's, it's just sort of built up, I guess, over the years and made it very visceral and very apparent to me. I think it was around 2018, 2019, started to shift my focus to include elements of mental health and well being of founders. I also personally, on a personal level, like I think so many of us do, we know people who have suffered through mental illness and having other challenges. And for me, as one of my children who is neurodiverse, you know, sort of seeing the world a bit through her eyes and experiencing what it's like for someone who thinks differently is really powerful.

Yeah. So a lot of research and looking at all of the companies. Right. That you're supporting. Yeah, that, that realize. And I think if we look at where mental health is, I mean, we are at a pretty critical point in the world right across teenage mental health is worse than, you know, adult mental health. And then in particular with founders. I'm sure you looked at this data. I have some of it I want to hear from you. What do you find, Lisa? What percentage of founders do you find in some shape or form are struggling with mental health? It doesn't need to be mental illness, but just broadly. Right. They're not operating even close to what's possible for them.

Yeah, I mean, there are amazing statistics which you might have heard. Dr. Michael Freeman, who shared kind of the, you know, x more likely to have depression, 3x more likely to have bipolar disorder. There are statistics that show that the entrepreneurial population is much more at risk for more kind of debilitating mental illness. And I, you know, I can't speak to my portfolio on this per se, but in general, I will say that it's, I think everyone has experienced stress and anxiety, whether or not they are thriving or just surviving. You know, that can vary and that can fluctuate.

Yeah, for sure. We go through that in continuum all the time.

Exactly, exactly. And it's, you know, I think this is just an interesting population because to your point, mental health is something that's coming up in a lot of communities. It's certainly, you know, it's what our surgeon general is looking at in terms of loneliness. It's like the number one Use case for AI chatbots is getting sort of help. Right. Therapy, even though it's not even, I know, qualified therapy. So I think we are at this inflection point where people are looking for answers, they're looking for help, they want to reach out. But there is still unbelievably a lot of stigma around this topic. And I think that stigma is just X with the founder population because the expectations of them are so high.

Yeah. It goes back to the first point you highlighted because there's a story we're living that if I show a chink in my armor, I'm going to lose it all. My people are going to leave me, my founders are going to leave me and I'm going to be left holding the bag. And it's a big risk. Right. And so for any founders. Right. Who are listening, I just want to highlight this. Almost 70, 90% of founders experience some shape or form of mental health struggles. It can be stress, it can be anxiety, it can be burnout. Right. It can be depression. At least as the stats you shared, you're much more higher. So part of the issue is people feel, if they're struggling with this, their own, they're alone. But what I want to highlight is you're not alone.

No.

Right. In fact, if you're not struggling with it at all, ever, I think there is a self reflection that I would invite you to consider that maybe there is something wrong here. Right. Because you're trying to do something really, really difficult. Like you're trying to do something at the Olympian feat level, given the mortality rate of startups.

Absolutely.

And hence the need to really invest in mental health. You know, there's this beautiful teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh where he says before people get married, they should do a six month meditation course. I think before people start startups, they should do a six month meditation course to prepare their mind and body. Right.

Yeah.

To go take a trek. I mean, if you climb Kilimanjaro, you wouldn't just go and climb it. You start a fast. Right. If you, if you do a startup, it's as hard, if not a harder journey. Why not prepare yourself for that?

Yeah. And there's just, there are so many different components to what makes the journey difficult. And in some ways you can prepare, in many ways you can't prepare. But I think to your point, you know, having some kind of reflective and more, you know, meditation or doing something around mindfulness, it's going to help you. Whatever comes up. Whatever comes up, it's not always accessible to people. And this is what I hear a lot from founders. It's like, oh, I don't have the time, and. And that's okay. I think there are other ways to, you know, quote unquote, meditate. That's not just sort of sitting and clearing your mind. I think you have to find out what your meditation is. You know, is your meditation going on a run? Is your meditation, you know, going for a swim or walking in the woods or something?

Yeah, exactly. Is it like an object meditation? Right. There are like so many, six, seven different ways you can actually access it. Even if you can't still your mind, by the way, nobody can still their mind. Little trick, little secret just for those who are listening. There is nothing like a still mind. A still mind is a dead mind. But till you're dead, even after dead, you have some brain activity. Sometimes for a while, the brain doesn't stay still. That's not its nature. So, Lisa, tell me a little bit now, like, you know, I want to anchor a little bit on your mission today, right? You do such. You speak all the time. Flourish Ventures. Tell us about the work you're leading now to advance flourishing and mental health. And, you know, what are some of the. What is some of the impact you're most proud of in this field?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of layers to the mission. So one, maybe at the core, the mission is around supporting our portfolio and ensuring that, you know, we are showing up as founders who are. Are empathetic, who listen, who are honest, who are transparent, but also providing our portfolio with different levels of support. And some of it is more kind of tangible, programmatic support like coaching and therapy. Other support is more on the community and network side. So we know that having community is a really big part. Absolutely feeling, you know, like you can be open and you're not alone. So we have CEO communities that meet every month. We have a CTO community, we have CXO gatherings. We've really been trying to build community, and there's a lot of intention in those communities. They're not designed to simply be a place where, you know, there's chest pounding and talking about, you know, all the ways we're crushing it. But it's really an opportunity to engage at a more human, deeply vulnerable level. And so we try to set up space for that. And then I would say, you know, the next layer out is how do we expand some of what we're doing also on our own journey, and we don't have the answers, we're just trying things out. But how do we expand out to the broader VC ecosystem?

Yeah.

Where, you know, we're, we're starting to see culture change and starting to see, you know, founders who are expecting more from their investors. Just look at the next generation, right. They, they have a different view of the world and relationships. And I think if, if we're not meeting founders where they are, they'll find other investors or other ways to have a successful business without raising capital. So we've been doing these world tours, just going to different places, talking to VCs who think that there's potentially something broken with the founder funder relationship and trying to find ways where we can learn from each other. How can we build tr? Can we drive healthier relationships? And listening and learning has been really fascinating and also very encouraging and moving. But I would say the thing that I'm most proud of, which again to mention Michael Freeman, who was speaking at the event last year, we funded a mental health diagnostic tool that went through about a year and a half of sort of research and clinical trial to make sure that it was scientifically validated. That came through. It's a seven question questionnaire that's the only thing of its kind, specifically for entrepreneurs that gauges mental health. And so that kind of product, if you will, the hope is that that can be somehow accessible to all entrepreneurs. So they have the ability to get some sort of early support by way of diagnos and then be able to find the help that they need to get to a better space.

I love, I love the holistic nature, Lisa, of the different interventions that you highlighted. Right. One, rather than just write the check, really being able to fund the support around coaching and therapy. Right. For individuals that they need recognizing, hey, it's normal. You're going to need somebody on the journey to help you and maybe you'll be open to share that with us. But if not, here's a confidential resource that can actually, what's important is you get the support. If you get it with us and you trust us, that's great. But if not, at least we want to make sure that you are, you know, we're setting you up for success and because if you're successful, we know you'll, you know, higher chances of business being successful than if you're not successful. Right. I also love the community nature of what you're doing because it is so important. I think this, this common humanity of these struggles are common. We can share and connect with peers, we can get coaching through peers, we can learn from experiences. I think is so important. I think just normalizing. I think the biggest thing those communities also can do. I'm imagining it is you're normalizing all the stigma that go. And removing the stigma that goes with like, yeah, you're struggling. Okay. You're doing hard stuff. Right. You know, start lifting weights. Yeah. The muscles are going to be sore. Like there is no way to escape that.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, think about when you started leaning into this work and started doing these podcasts and having some conversations. And now, you know, dozens, hundreds of podcasts. I'm not even sure how many you have, but I know we're on our hundred.

156Th podcast. Yes. And it just.

Every time you have these conversations. Right. It's. It's doing something to the. You're forming additional connections. You are.

I'm learning all the time. All the time.

Yeah.

Right. And 60% of you know how well you do is based on your relationships. The Harvard Research. Right. 80 plus years of all thinkers work. 60%. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it was amazing. Right. They studied. They started in the 90s and 30s and they took this two population, a group of people who were going to Harvard and then some from inner city schools, and they tracked these youths. Now it's in many cases the third generation. And everything from questionnaires, interviews, but also blood samples, saliva. It was a pretty holistic. It's still running 80 plus years in. And what they consistently found, it's the quality of the relationships that determined life satisfaction, success outcomes. It was nothing else. 60% is driven by that.

That's. It's so staggering. I mean, think about what that means in terms of how you're spending your day and your time and who you're with.

Exactly. So I love that. And I love that you're actually taking the mantle. You know, I have to tell you, Lisa, like I, you know, the venture capital model, I've been quite inspired by David Wartel's work on Wharton's work. He wrote another way. Right. Created the Tugboat Institute. Original Kleiner Perkins, personally. And it totally resonated with me this notion of how unfortunately, venture capital, the model has strayed away from the original. What made venture capital great and what resulted in HP and Apple and these companies where it's all become about scale and how fast can I grow and exit versus building sustainable businesses run by people who are sustainably healthy.

Exactly.

Right. I call it the get rich or die trying model, which I think everybody is just running the get rich or die trying. So I love the fact that you're actually saying and you're being the light to say, hey, it doesn't have to be that way. It can be different and if we do this, it's better for the world. So thank you for doing that.

Well and thank you for saying that. But I think, you know, there's, there can be pushback from the VC world who will say, okay look, we've got LPs that we need to satisfy and we need to have these exits and we need to raise a fund and there's all of these other stressors that VCs are experiencing too. But it's like that's the beauty of it. So why don't you share that with your founders? Why don't you share what you need to do and what is on your mind and your stressors in a way that opens up the vulnerability pathway so that we can start having real conversations and start being transparent in a way that allows us to be honest with our companies. Right. Instead of, I mean, I think there are barriers to that because of simply the volume of portfolio companies that one investor might have to deal with.

Yeah, no, exactly. And it is not about, it's the same. It's this, you know, going back to the mindset of I got to be in control and I got to, I can't share. I think so many live in this notion of if I say this, the funders, investors are going to go somewhere else. They're going to wonder if they I will actually be able to deliver because I'm not willing to, to push as hard when all the research we know. Right. So I have the privilege of working with a couple of national governing bodies in the U.S. olympic movement like USA Ski and Snowboard Gymnastics. Those organizations know when they train their athletes that high performance requires holistic well being. Physical, emotional, social, mental, spiritual, occupational. If you don't feed that, there is no way you perform at Olympian levels. And yet first of all, yet when it comes to how they run their own organizations, they don't do that. So that's the first kind of like, that's what you're telling everybody that you want to win and you're like, this is what we want to support, who's supporting you. But then second, you translate this into this world. Right. I genuinely feel when you, it is an Olympian feat to build a company against all odds, it's an Olympian feat. You have to put well being at the heart of that journey. Otherwise you're not successful. This conversation is brought to you by Happiness Squad, where we help leaders build new mindsets, new habits, and transform their ways of working to truly flourish. If you're ready to unleash the untapped human potential in your organization and operate at your best, come Visit us@happinesssquad.com and start your journey today.

No. And that wisdom, the wisdom of sports, like the wisdom of the Olympics and the athletic training, I don't quite know why it doesn't always come through in the business culture, in the business sort of context, because in my mind, everything, no matter what you're doing, starts with self awareness. Self awareness. And having that self awareness enables you to identify when you're not performing at your best and it's time for an adjustment, whatever that might be. And when we live in these worlds of 996 culture, you can't possibly be self aware. You can't have a moment to reflect. You're just blindly plowing forward. And I just have never seen that work.

Yeah, I saw the same, Lisa. Right. I was at McKinsey for 17 years and I shifted my last seven years at the firm versus my first 10 years at the firm. Fundamentally different in terms of my own performance, the hours I was putting in. Right. So I literally was getting more done between nine to six than. Between six to nine. Right. Consistently on every measure, Lisa. Client impact, client billings, feedback on me, new innovation and service lines that I was birthing, firm roles that I was paying on every dimension. I was outperforming a 6 to 9 hustle from 9 to 6 because of exactly that. I had cultivated. Right. Stillness. I had cultivated breaks, I had cultivated balcony moments. I had picked up many of the practices that became, that became a part of Rewire, the Sunflower model. And guess what was at the heart of it?

Self awareness.

Self awareness. Because I realized, you know, going back to mindsets, it's the stories you tell yourself, it's the beliefs that you hold. Unless you shift them, knowledge will never go into practice. Because that other belief of I have to be in control, otherwise I'm going to lose is always going to outpower what you know you need to do.

Right.

That is always outpower that. Right, Exactly. So, no, I love it. I love it that you're trying to change. So tell me a little bit. But it is a real challenge. You know, you invest in companies today. The thing is, it is, you know, you don't know if this model is going to work or not. How do you. I'm sure you get this question from other venture capitalists. How do you balance growth and humanity? How do you balance speed and scale? And, you know, this notion of this fail fast, you have to fail fast. You have to learn. There's so much uncertainty. How do you actually balance those two? And how do you balance the pressures?

You know, I think it's. It's highly individual and dependent on companies and their cultures and the expectations and their values. And, you know, we don't have a sort of one size fits all. You know, we expect all of our companies to look the same way. I think that's where, if you have such a large portfolio as many VCs do, it can be hard to take the time to evaluate. You know, how do we balance this out? How do we balance the speed and the need for scale with also being sustainable? And I think that it's the. It's the founders, it's the CEOs that we need to trust to identify what's best for their companies. And I think having that trust is something that we need to demonstrate in our interactions so that they know that we are supporting them. We are advisors, but ultimately it's their. It's their baby, it's their business. They know better than anyone else could. And so we have to be empowering, but we all have also have to create psychological safety, which is something we talk about internally a lot as a team. You know, how do we create psychological safety within our teams? But also, how do you create that with founders so they feel like they can raise things that come up. There was a study. Well, there have been multiple studies on this, but one that I think of is the sifted study that said only 10% of founders will go to their VCs and share when something is going wrong. 10%. I mean, that is. That's appalling, Right? Because I think investors sort of have this belief that, oh, we're the first person that you call and we have all the info, have as much information to make good advisory decisions, but if there's not open communication, we don't really know what's going on.

Yeah.

So I think coming back to that question, it's like it's such a dynamic, ongoing discussion.

You know, it just triggers a thought for me. Lisa, what you just said, right. Number one for founders, building awareness from where they're operating, community that recognizes you're not alone, that normalizes, that gives you the courage to actually open up. Right. But then you're saying trust, right? Really investing in that trust between the investor and the Founder where now you don't have to like, you're starting to kind of open up a different. First you open up to yourself and you recognize there's a problem. Then you maybe share with a peer. Then you share with somebody who's kind of should be your biggest supporters and has actually put their money behind you.

Right, right.

And the thought that comes up for me is the following relationships. One wrong question asked, a change in tone when somebody calls and say, hey, I'm struggling or the business is not going to go can make such a big difference. Right. Those trust, once broken, take so long. And so my question is, how do you invest in actually the venture in your own company at Flattish Ventures? What's the inner work you all do? So when you do get the call, we don't go into reactive questions of what's the problem? What have you done? But can truly show up as empathetic, as curious, as fully behind the person who, if they're calling you, they have, they've obsessed over this for so long. How do you make sure they're in that mental state that in their.

Well, that's really important. And it's not always, you know, we're all humans. Right. So of course, even with all the training that we do, you still might get a reaction that's not going to be the best, you know, we. So I'll tell you about some of the things we've done internally. One, we've done empathy training. So we worked with Jimmy Ozaki, who is a Stanford professor who studies empathy and really understanding that empathy is a muscle that you built and built and it is inborn to some extent. But there's this power paradox that happens. So the more you are in a position of power, the less likely you are to connect and relate to someone who is on the other side of the table, so to speak. So having an awareness of that first and foremost and a. And a regular reminder of that is one thing. Psychological safety training, that was another one for us that was really important to sort of understand how we set the tone and how, you know, leaders, for instance, are the ones who are primarily creating the environment with which psychological safety can flourish or not. So sort of understanding what are the different levers there? How do you respond to somebody who comes and tells you something that you don't want to hear? How. Exactly your question. Right. And then another thing we work on is feedback and listening. So being better listeners. And I think this is a tough one for all of us because we all want to sound like we have the answers and know what we're talking about. And wow, you picked me to be your investor, so I should add value by doing whatever.

Add value, exactly.

But it's like, what's wrong with just listening and saying, you know, share more, tell me more and sort of putting on that coaching hat. So sometimes I think it's, it's important to distinguish. Am I an advisor right now? Am I a coach? Am I a listener? Like, what's my role? What is, what do they need right now to create an open conversation? And yeah, so there's, there's a few really specific things that we do, but I think overall power dynamics is sort of the, a bit of the issue with what we're dealing with here.

Yeah. And again, awareness, if you're aware of it. And I love the investment in practice. Right. We're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. Despite all the training, there will still be moments when, you know, we lose it. But we can go back and we can try and mend that. Right. Recognize, hey, I wasn't perfect. But I love those trainings. Yeah. Empathy is a muscle. We can train psychological safety and knowing what creates and not like, so we can practice it more and more and more. Emotional regulation. Right. Just to make sure that you will get an emotion doesn't mean you have to act on it. Right.

Taking that pause between the emotion and then the reaction is also key.

So I want to focus a little bit somewhere else. The other question I have, Lisa, for you, and I've seen this in the private equity model. I've also seen it in the VC model. Right. Where so much of the focus is on the founder or, or the CEO or the executive. And yet so little is actually done at the organization level because we basically say, I trust the executive team to go do it, I trust the founder to go do it. And yet the same issues are further accentuated because you create the reality in which you are living for everybody else.

Absolutely.

And as much as a power dynamic exists between a VC and a founder, even more power, you have more agency, you have more visibility to knowledge of what's happening, where the business is, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And there's a power dynamic between those who are working in a startup versus a founder. So we just accentuate. Tell me a little bit about how you think about well being of the organizations actually. And any work that you're seeing that is being done to lift to the mental health and well being of the whole organization rather than just the founder.

Yeah, I mean, I think the Biggest issue with this is simply bandwidth. You know, if we had a dozen people sitting in my seat who could go out and sort of infiltrate the organizations and support and make introductions, I think we would be able to tackle more a couple levels down. But because, you know, everyone has resource constraints, we try to focus on the probably the highest return levers, which is the leadership team. We have started to do leadership retreats for CXOs as a way to kind of take some of the learning that the CEO gets, for instance, from the communities, and sort of spread that into a broader team of people who will then hopefully also be able to show up differently with their individual teams. The other thing that, you know, we think about is just culture more broadly and how important it is for teams to be focused on that. We talk about it a lot. I work with portfolio companies to design mission, vision, values and how to think through implementing, you know, operationalizing that and making it more part of a kind of living, breathing thing.

Yeah.

But I think, like, the work that you do is really important. And that's where we try to leverage folks like yourself and other kind of consultants and third parties who can come in and sort of specialize in areas where the whole team needs support. And I think probably the greatest area where I see this is management.

Yeah, people leaders, especially the middle people leader.

Yes. It's. There is such a lack of people leadership and it's so common, and it has been common forever at startup companies because people get promoted into leadership positions because they're a great individual contributor, but then they never have any sort of training on how to, you know, how to prioritize for others, how to give and receive feedback, how to coach your team. So I think having these various learning interventions for teams is really important for us.

I mean, that's a big part, Right. For all the work that we're doing. Lisa, I fundamentally hold that if we need to. I fundamentally hold three truths. If we need to flourish in life, we have to flourish at work. Because we spend more time at work than any other activity other than sleep point number one. And yet most people feel like I have to survive work so I can flourish outside work. And I'm like, that's not going to happen. You are not living in a severance world. It is not possible.

Thank goodness. That sounds awful to me, right?

So I think that's number one. Second is no amount of individual flourishing is going to help unless you work on the individual and the system, because individuals shape systems and systems shape us. And so this notion of really, you Got to actually holistically and in fact that's what we found when I was researching at McKinsey some of this work. Lisa. And then the research got published by the McKinsey Health Institute like almost two years ago now. Where 97% of burnout factors are not because of an individual. They're at the job team organization level. Only 3% is at the individual. When it comes to well being, it's 72%. Right. Only 28%. And yet so much focus is on the individual. And so I'm like, you've got to address the hole. And the third one, which is a really big one. And I think this is where so many people, this is a historical desert, parched desert is if we have to flourish, we have to amplify and elevate and support the middle. Like the middle is what touches everyone. Middle is where work gets done. Right. Middle is where strategy gets dies right. Greatest strategies like just get stuck. It's called the frozen middle for a reason. And I think if we can actually really help figure out ways as much as resource constrained we are to like really activate that really help them, I think it paves the way we can get more.

I agree with you 100%. Yeah, right, absolutely.

We don't need to delay it and put 15 people into a manager where they're no longer a manager. We need to actually figure out more ways to kind of really amplify and let them do what you want them to do. Coach, mentor, prioritize, problem solve, develop the next layers.

Yes.

Yeah. Well, my friend, I have a question for you. You're in Denmark, you fly all over, you have unbelievable work. You do with portfolio what you have, you know, personal life. You're juggling what are practices that have become part and parcel of your life that make sure that you keep your cup filled.

Oh my goodness. Great question. Well, there are a number of things. One is that I need to spend time in nature every day. So if that's five minutes, if that's an hour, I just need to experience the natural world. The second thing I do is journal. I think journaling is really important for getting the, you know, all the emotions and the stuff from the back of the brain into the, that good old prefrontal cortex so we can actually work with it. So I hand write a lot of my notes, I, I hand write journals and I find that a really helpful practice. I also try to take time off once a quarter. So if that's a staycation or a vacation, just building in time for that so those are just a few things. And then I guess the last thing would be sleep is a non negotiable for me and I think it should be for every entrepreneur, though it rarely is. But it's proven to be the number one thing that I think anyone can do to boost their resilience.

Yeah, it's literally a gift of nature. It's a gift of nature and the universe. Right. Sleep is when we recover. Literally, it's like free. You don't need to pay for anything.

And we still don't want it. What's wrong with us?

Like literally just sleep. Just sleep and recover and recharge. I know. I mean, the other one that's free, which I often talk about, is breath. I'm like, our life starts and ends with breath. Literally our whole life is between those breaths. And yet most of the breaths people take are unconscious.

That's right.

Right. And so just even being present, being mindful of our breath, being in the here and now, you can only breathe in the present moment. Right. You can't breathe in the past, in the future. No, that is like we can only breathe here. And that is mindfulness. And most of our stress and anxiety come from future, not here. And so just use your breath. It's again, free. It's free.

Now that you mention it. Now I'm concentrating on my breathing.

Like these are free, but my friend, almost keeping an eye on time. So what advice would you have for founders who are listening? What would you tell them?

Find a way to disconnect from your work every single day. Even if it's a micro moment, build that muscle. Just find a way to disconnect. Start with 5 minutes, then 10 minutes and build that up. But you've got to be able to disconnect from the amazing thing that you're doing every single day.

Yeah, beautiful. Don't let it constantly play in your head. Right. Create distance from it. Yeah, it's beautiful. Thank you. Last question. If every investor and founder made one change tomorrow, founders should disconnect. But if there's one change they made tomorrow to promote flourishing, what should it be?

Yeah, I think this is an easy one and it's totally free. And I would say as an investor, the next time you talk to your founder or your CEO, whoever you're backing, ask them how they are doing. Say, ashish, how are you doing? And take a pause and take a minute and hear how they're doing. They're going to come back to the business. Oh, the business is. No, no, no, I don't want to hear about the business. I want to hear how you're doing. I think it's a missing part of these conversations and it's hugely impactful.

Yeah. And if they say, fine, ask them, how are you really? And don't let them off the hook, how are you really? And hold the space for two minutes. Yeah, right. Don't accept fine for an answer.

Never.

Lisa, thank you. Thank you for joining us after a pretty long day for you. I'm so grateful for your light, for your mission, for what you're trying to do in this world, to really invest and support really what is the next generation of opportunity. I fundamentally believe in business as a force for good. And businesses are created by people and people who are flourishing create flourishing environments, businesses and the world. So thank you for being a big light and a force. For that, I'm grateful for you.

It's an absolute pleasure. And thank you, Ashish, for taking the time and having such a rich conversation. Conversation. This was a ton of fun.

Take care, my friend. Now get your sleep.

See you next time. Bye bye.

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