How to Negotiate Fearlessly by Being More Human, Not More Perfect with Mori Taheripour

You may find yourself experiencing burnout, right? And if you don't know it's weird, people will be like, well how do you not know that you're burnt out? Because we're going at record speed and it's constant. So taking that time is super, super important. Perfectionism is impossible. And with the self reflection, you may realize that there's work to do.

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Welcome back to the Happiness Squad Podcast. Today I'm thrilled to have Mori Taharipur with us. An award winning educator, negotiation expert, and author of Bring how to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. Mori's work spans the Wharton School, the NBA, Fortune 500 companies, nonprofits and governments. Her approach to negotiations is unique. It's not about winning at all costs, but about connection, self awareness and the.

Power of shifting perspectives.

In today's world, dear friends, where flourishing and well being seems to be a constant negotiation at work and in life, and often seen as two ends of performance or well being, this conversation will give you a set of tips to.

Navigate that polarity better.

In this episode we'll dive into the core principles of bring yourself how you can unpack and change your own mindset to help rise above conflict. We'll talk about exploring the power of letting go of perfectionism in leadership and negotiations. Leading more authentically. Whether you're leading a team, you're navigating a tough conversation, or just trying to communicate more effectively in life, this conversation is for you. So let's dive in. Mori, welcome to the Happiness Squad Podcast. I'm so delighted to have you here with us.

So happy to be here. Very excited for this.

You know Mori, you've had an amazing journey. You know you serve a fascinating range of organizations. You and I met when we were doing some work for the USA track and field. You've served the NBA, you've served global, not for profits. You teach and you know your specialization right over the years is negotiations. And so I'm curious about what led you to choose negotiations as an area of specialization for you.

I think negotiations chose me. To be honest, I never. You know, as you said, my background's kind of here. There and everywhere, so very diverse. I started my career in public health. I was an entrepreneur, went to business school. I had always had a passion, love for sports, but I was definitely in that place where I didn't know what sort of my next chapter was supposed to be. I didn't think my life was written for me yet. And when I left business school, sort of my last semester actually, ironically, I took negotiations. And my professor, who has since become not just a mentor but a dear, dear friend, was the one who said, I think you should try teaching. I think you should, you should try teaching negotiations. I think this is something you'd be really good at. And quite honestly, I, I didn't know why he said that. I still to this day, I think we both try to take it apart and try to figure out how that came about. But it was sort of this pivotal moment in my life where I definitely, it was not pre planned, it was not intentional. I just sort of fell into it. And it's funny because the first few years of teaching, I would say I sort of followed the rulebook, right? This is what you're supposed to say, this is what I'm supposed to deliver, follow very strict sort of syllabus. And it wasn't really enjoyable. And I think through that time I always asked myself, why negotiations? Why you? And when those answers became really clear to me is when I actually think I even understood why I was teaching it and why this moment had arrived. And I looked back quite honestly, I did a lot of self reflection and I looked at the story of my life and the moments that negotiations had played such a big role in the course of my life and the decisions that I had made. And I, I don't even know if I'd categorized them as negotiations until that time of self reflection. And I realized that the decisions that I had made for myself, the push and the pull, right people call it like pros and cons list. But all those big decisions, the should I, should I nots, a lot of discussions with my family, I hate to say, a lot of the disappointments that maybe I caused as a result of not following sort of the, the sort of the path that they had chosen for me and the difficult conversations that were involved in that and the heartbreak and the, the challenges of even opening up and really having the courage to speak up, like those were those negotiations that changed the course of my life. And once I realized that and thought this is what I'm supposed to deliver, this is what negotiations really is, is all of these life decisions and all of these important conversations, and it's not transactions, it's about the people that were involved. And my own life journey, it changed the way I taught, and it made me truly passionate about not just the delivery, but the impact. And I think that's how it all came about, to be honest with you.

Can you share some of those pivotal moments in your life journey? Because I think there is so much that we could learn from those.

Yeah. I think, like, for example, when I decided that I. And it was two parts of this, right. I decided sort of that I did not want to go to med school. And I think I made that decision earlier than I actually communicated to my family. Um, so I just kept buying time, and I started doing some work in public health and really started to sort of understand that my passion was around helping people, but it wasn't going to be in being a doctor. But I bought time and I kept sort of trying different things, and I started working in public health, and then I was like, you know, I don't think this is necessarily the path. Maybe it's business school. And who says I can't sort of marry the two? So it's at that point where I had the conversation of, hey, I'm picking business school, not med school. And I remember the. Again, the real disappointment, the heartbreak, honestly, of the choices that I was making and the negotiations. There was really. I know that.

Was this with your parents?

Yeah, yeah. My dad specifically. And I was like, I know this is the path that you wanted for me. This is not the path I want for myself.

Yeah.

And I promise you that, you know, this is. Right. This is. This is how I feel. And I've been blindly sort of following this path, but this is just not for me. You know, we didn't speak for a long time. We. It was. It was very much a strange relationship over that. And I think he carried that with him probably for his entire life right after that. Like, the. What happened? Why was I not able to change your mind? But the truth is that that's a. Negotiations I had to win because it was. It was my journey. So that was.

Almost feels like you either win that negotiation or you lose your life because you're living somebody else's life, not yours.

Exactly right.

And there's so many who live that.

There are so many that live that. And it's funny you say that, because I don't know if it was necessarily a loss for him. And this is weird to say because I know that he was disappointed, but, you know, you grow up and you get older and you start forgiving people for different things. And I think I forgave him because I finally understood that it wasn't that he was trying to coerce me into doing something. It was probably the depth of his love and care for me. And he thought, this is the right path. Right. This is. This is how she will make the best of herself and her life. And when I realized that later on, it sort of made me, obviously feel a lot better about it. But I. I think I finally told myself that wasn't one that he lost. It was one that. That actually, when I understood his purpose, it made me feel like, had I not. Had I not gotten that notion of, we just want a life for you that is best.

Yes.

Then I was able to adopt that for myself and realize that this is. Do something that is best for you. So. Yeah.

Well, I think it points so much, Maury, to. I think, two things. First of all, when I said, it's your parents, you know, I grew up in India, at India, when we grew up, there were only three things you could become. A doctor, an engineer, or a failure. Right. I mean, there were only three.

Right, exactly.

There was nothing else. Right. So it's very familiar. I became an engineer, and then five years after engineering, I never actually was an engineer. I went into software, and then I owned my own path. Right. Found myself in business school, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's very familiar. But I think this notion of, I think in our world, so many of us, I find so many people who are living outside in lives, right. They're trying to become the best version based on somebody else's belief. And often, even though that's rooted, as you say, in their belief that this will serve us the best, often it doesn't serve us. And either we don't know what it is that will serve us best. So we decided to blindly just follow that. And then we get into this sunk cost fallacy of, well, I've spent all this time, what else am I going to do? So let's just let momentum carry me. Meanwhile, I'm walking through my life dead.

Right.

Right. But I don't have the courage to do something different.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. What was the other negotiation in your life that shaped you that said, wow, like, you know, this is why this profession found me.

I would say maybe the dissolution of my. That first company that I had. And again, it was. It's funny because so many of these pivotal negotiations have been with myself, and that one took a long Time. I. I mean, I. My company, it was dissolved probably for 13 years after we founded it.

Wow.

And it took. But it should have been dissolved way before that. Right. But it was one where I was in a partnership with somebody who, again, had been my mentor many, many years older than me. And. And I sort of followed this path where I was always looking to him for either validation, for him to say, yeah, this is the right decision, or, yeah, that was a really good idea. And when we didn't agree on certain things, um, I felt I kept sort of internalizing this notion of the. Well, I. I must be the one who's wrong. Because of our age difference and his level of experience. I mean, he had been my boss. So, you know, that power dynamic was very evident. And it was. It was sort of what I kept there was my fallback position. And post business school, I had already started teaching. And I think that resulted in me sort of understanding, actually my own power to stand in front of a classroom and have people listen to you and feel like, you know, you're an authority in something. I think, certainly. And I didn't think about it, honest to God, until this very moment, but to. To have them look at me as though I was an authority in this subject, or I had a command of a room that. That my voice mattered to people, that I think gave me a certain level of confidence that then I translated and brought back into my business. And I was like, wait a minute. Why is your fallback position that you're wrong? And why is it that. That you can't ever think that you actually have power in this situation? And look, I had brought in all the funding, I had the story told. Could have been that that wasn't necessarily true. It's just the way I kept internalizing it. And when I finally was like, you know what? This is going to be a really painful dissolution. It's going to, I mean, quite honestly, include me taking on a horrendous amount of debt. But I needed the freedom and the point at which the pros outweighed it. The cons of, you know, ending that relationship. That became a moment of clarity. And that conversation was not an easy one. Again, there was a friendship that was going to be dissolved along with that business, and again, the financial risks of it. But that negotiations felt like a light bulb going off. As you're speaking, the truth is coming out. And as you're speaking, the validation that you need is only the one from yourself. And, you know, many people would be like, well, so do you call That a failure? You know, I don't know. I think it was maybe the wisest decision I've ever made and alongside, you know, choosing my career path. That was different than that. That was expected for me. But the shedding of those things and again, as it happened, it was happening in real time felt so good. So I think that that's another sort of pivotal moment.

Yeah, no, I think it's beautiful. Any dissolutions are hard and yeah, there are these stories. You know, I hear this all the time, right. For people. I work many times I wish I had let somebody go a lot earlier, but we just drag it on. Or I wish I had shut this business down a lot earlier. I knew back when. But somehow we prolong. Because there's a story around what does it mean for us? There's a story around whether this is a failure and what will others judge. And as you said, the only thing that matters is what we think and our validation. And, you know, I'm a big believer in Edison's. You know, every failure is a learning opportunity. If you so choose to make it right. Yeah, absolutely right. If you so choose to make it so look, you know, I want to get into a little bit of your book and some of these beautiful kind of, you know, guidance that you have around how to rise above conflict, how to take perspective. But you know, before, there is something you said which, which is so resonant with me, right. Which is negotiation is not something we do in meetings. Negotiation is something we do daily, in every day, and we do it in life and in business. And these two, one was a very life and one was a business example you gave. So just through your life, of course you have all the teachings, right? And you have all the, like research and academic literature. But just through your life, as you coach people, mori, and you guide people, you know, what is one shift that if people can improve how they navigate everyday negotiations, not just the business ones, but everyday negotiations that are part of life, what's an advice you would give them?

I think the big shift is sort of leading with curiosity because I think that the premise of let's just take any sort of business negotiations or, you know, something that, you know, sales, transactional negotiations. A lot of times we believe that the premise of preparation is that you have to know everything, leave no stone unturned. Right? And that's sort of the advice that's given. And it's. It's absolutely accurate. Right. You know, prepare, prepare, prepare. But I think what happens is that with that comes this notion of Well, I must know everything, so I can't go in with questions, right? I can't leave room for this perspective of what else is there that I can learn before I am certain that this is the right decision. And when you lead with certainty, I think you have blind spots naturally. You can't ever know everything. I mean, that's just the truth, right? And so there's always room to examine and to grow and to listen and to understand. And I think that when people say, you know, preparation doesn't mean certainty. Preparation means, you know, being certainly ready for a situation and knowing all the important facts and details, including your own goals and what you want to get. But really good preparation also says that I'm also prepared to keep an open mind. Because if along the way I hear something or some information comes up, then I have to be prepared to also be nimble and pivot and without losing ground, just. Just understanding how I'm going to fold into that, that, that information, into what I already know and make room for it, right? Because otherwise it's like you're driving down a highway, you miss the exit, what do you do? You go and course correct. And. And you go, you know, you, you turn around and you follow now the correct path. You don't just keep going and realize that I missed the turn, right? So course correction is part of that. Preparation is really telling yourself, let me listen, let me be curious, because maybe, just maybe, where I end up is going to be better than what I even imagined. So if you can sort of turn that curiosity into sort of the way that you think about everything and learning mindset, then I think it changes a lot of things, including maybe seeing things in a place that ends up being far more favorable than you ever even imagined.

Yeah, I love you highlighted curiosity, both curiosity and I love it because as you said, I for the longest time also lived mori from this world, right. For like 10, 15 years in my professional career, I prided myself on be as prepared as you can. Right? Because I had a story around perfection is the price you pay to be loved. You want to do the right thing, you want to be perfect, you want to be prepared. And over time, I realized, frankly, you only control 20, 30% of what you think you control, and you don't even fully know yourself. Forget about knowing the other. But most importantly, I think as you said, in a dynamic between me and you, there is the we, there is the space that is emerging. And if we get curious about what is looking to emerge, there might be something that comes up if we only listen with an open heart and an open mind and an open will, something will come up that we hadn't planned for and something that's actually better rather than stick to our original what we think we need.

Right, right, absolutely. And I think that some people think that when we don't know something or admit to not knowing something, it shows your weakness. But really it's just an admission of, I don't know, but let me learn. Right. I don't know and let me get back to you. And I feel like that actually gives you a whole lot more confidence and control rather than sort of thinking to yourself, well, I can't admit that because they'll just think I'm not as knowledgeable or I'm not as self assured. But there's some strength that comes from that vulnerability, I think.

Absolutely. Well, I think the strength that comes is you allow, you know, if you lower your jhar, even though if you show that the fact that there's a lot of deeper needs, fears, emotions, beliefs that are shaping what I think I need to do and I'm willing to go there, I think implicitly in the other person, you're creating that vulnerability to just expose a lot bigger.

Right.

Part of their, you know, kind of iceberg or what they're kind of solving for.

Right, exactly.

And I think we create space, otherwise we're just debating ideas.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And yet it's so hard, but I think it's so crucial. So I think that's why preparation, I think, frankly, how do we prepare to actually save. I don't know. And.

Right, right, absolutely.

You know, the other thing in your book, bring Yourself that I love this theme, that negotiation is not just about competition, it's not just about splitting the pie. So I'm curious to hear a bit more about that and how what in your career shaped that view to really expand it. Because there's a lot of negotiation experts who just go down that pathway of kind of splitting.

Right, right, right.

And I think this is a topic that is so relevant for us because we are kind of navigating a similar domain when it comes to well being and happiness. Many companies and employees, I think, are this negotiation of do I want performance or do I want well being? When we know from all the research that you want to perform, the road leads through well being, not at the cost of it, at least sustainably. So that's why I'm curious about this theme in your work as well, where, hey, competition is. Negotiation is not about competition. We've got to think differently. And what are some ways in which, you know, what are some of your own life stories that have helped shape that point of view? And how do you get people to pivot into a broader view of the world?

Yeah, I think that I've seen it in so many different aspects, right? So for example, I think one of the things is that I do my teaching through working with people. Even personally, I've understood how the word no is something that people fear so much, right. It has. So the, this tiny little two letter word is like explosive, right? In terms of how we internalize it and you know what it means to people, the personal react, rejection, the closing of doors, the lack of opportunity, the lack of advancement. Right. Because there's no moving forward if you hear that word. And I think that through the work that I've done with many of my students and sort of in class and sort of the outcomes of some of the more powerful negotiations that I've seen is that when you take the power away from that word and you don't allow it to mean a closed door or rejection, and instead you start thinking about it from the perspective of, but there's gotta be a way, right? Like that's not where the door shuts. It's just that this notion of when another door opens comes from that, right? That, that maybe, just maybe this wasn't supposed to be the right thing anyway.

Yes.

Or if you're in sales, right, And a client says no to something, that doesn't mean that they don't want to work with you necessarily. It just means that no, that's not for us. But it could very easily be followed with, but something else may work. And if we can really start thinking about that word, not from a place of, you know, it's just really sort of changing, are sort of reimagining that word, right? And thinking from this perspective of. Because if that happens over and over again, you start going into negotiations and immediately thinking, competition, win, lose, there can't be a solution that works for both of us. But if you start shifting it and saying, you know what? I believe there's gotta be a way. And with that comes this notion of perseverance, this notion of again being able to, to move, right, and, and be flexible, reimagine even, dare I say, have fun with it, right? Because it cultivates creativity and it cultivates mindshare and innovation. So that's, I think one of the big ones is because. Because that word can, the nature of it, if you look at it from A place that's negative, it can, it can sort of be very detrimental and stop growth, stop innovation, create fear, create this notion of scarcity. Right, yeah. Going to that, that place of, you know, this isn't competition. Deep in that comes a true belief in looking at things from a place of abundance, that resources are not scarce, that if we limit ourselves, then opportunities are limited. If you limit your thinking, opportunities are limited. And I think that we see this in a lot of sort of labor talks, labor disputes. Right. The two sides come in almost certainly from the beginning, very sort of on opposite ends of the spectrum, where in reality both sides really need each other.

Absolutely.

And I understand how this works and sort of the positioning from the beginning so that you can regain some power and throw off the balance a little bit and have some leverage. But at the end of the day, if the energy was put into. Look, there is. So there are so many resources that we're not even exploring because we're doing, we're fighting over like peanuts, honestly, like a percentage here, percentage there. What are we not understanding about opportunity that we're actually wasting our time picking, you know, sifting through minutia. Whereas this energy spent could be the power that comes from joined forces and exploration of those opportunities and exploration of resources that we're not even daring to explore because we're sitting here fighting over nothing. So I think that notion of expansion and releasing this fear of scarcity and thinking that the opportunities are vast, we're just not devoting energy to exploring them.

So as you said, you know, mori for sure, when we hear no, you know, we fundamentally experience a psychological threat because what we had come in to do all of a sudden is not going to happen. And our brain goes into this fight, flight, freeze response. Right. Where scarcity resides there like the world. That is not enough. It's either or. I should have known better. What are some ways in which you help those who are at the table, while they're at the table or outside be able to shift into that other place, that other place where creativity and abundance sit. What are some ways in which people can do that?

Well, sort of this notion of abundance and scarcity comes from a place of faith, Right. And I don't necessarily mean religious faith so much as I mean a true belief and specifically in yourself. Right. And fear and anxiety drive a scarcity mindset. Right. They're, they're very much a part of that. So the first part of this journey is trying to really understand your value and having the self confidence and having the belief and if that means going back and looking at your successes, if that means knowing all the challenges and disruptions in your life that you were able to overcome, and therefore you should have faith in yourself because you've brought yourself to this point, none of those things, regardless of how big those challenges were, none of them were able to stop you. So that starts making people understand sort of the power within. And so that's one, right? Like, why are you giving into this fear when you've overcome so many times? So. So a reminder. And we all need it, right? And we all need it specifically in times of economic downturn or pandemics or whatever the challenge is, right? We start losing our sense of self. And so that reminder that work is really consistent and must be consistent. The other is that I think it's the way that you conduct yourself as a human, specifically in these negotiations, these interactions. Because I always think that. I always say, kindness is free, right? It is. It doesn't cost anything to treat people a certain way. And if you show up at these conversations, if you come into these negotiations and you treat people with dignity and respect and give them the curiosity that they deserve, and you see them and you listen to them and you understand them and there's a sense of empathy, then the way you leave that person feeling about this interaction, right? Even if at the end of the day, that conversation, that negotiations results in a place where they say, no, this actually doesn't work well, they felt so good about this interaction with you that when you come back to them and say, well, can we explore some other options in a few months in next meeting? Let's. We're going to go back with my team and really sort of revisit this later. Is that possible? And the person's likely to say yes because the experience they just had with you was so positive, right? So what I always tell my students is that, you know, leave that impression on somebody that the door is never closed because they so enjoyed this experience that they're likely to say, sure, of course. Whereas if you don't treat them that way and the conversation feels transactional and the dynamic is strained and feels competitive, then when you say, can we revisit this? They're gonna be like, no, right? We said no, this doesn't. Just doesn't work, Right? It's just human nature. So we wanna go. People have options. People have choices. Your clients have options. And you must understand that and say, what will it take to create that space where it doesn't end in, no, this doesn't work and that's it. There's consistent ability to come back and revisit and create another competition or conversation, another opportunity around it.

Yeah. Enjoying this podcast? If so, you will be excited to know that Happiness Squad is launching a free online community on International Day of Happiness March 22. This is an opportunity for listeners like you to integrate the nine hardwired for happiness practices that exist in every wisdom tradition and are backed by scientific evidence from the fields of psychology and neuroscience into your daily life and rediscover your well being, balance, purpose and connection. Check out the details on our website or drop us an email. Excited to see you in the community. You know, I love that this notion of I think it's creating space externally almost requires us to create space internally.

Right.

We have to kind of downregulate our own nervous system to where we are not in control of the limbic.

Right.

Seeing the world from a place of scarcity and fear and recognizing. I love your notion of from that place. Grounding ourselves on self efficacy. You are enough. You've traveled this before and you will going forward. Right. And even if it means this one is very rarely, even this one, if it doesn't work out, let's say it is a dead end, that's okay. Life, life is you're still alive. That means there'll be more opportunities. Right. And so we in our mind catastrophize this more. I don't know if you ever, I don't know if you and I ever talked about this Mori, but I don't know if you knew this about me. But before I started doing the work I was doing around happiness and flourishing. You know, for 12 years at McKinsey I was in the procurement practice.

Yep.

So I spent 12 years helping clients negotiate deals. And even from that point, you know, believe it or not, I was never, I've never been about the money.

Right.

And so I've never had that. So even within the firm, like I shifted very quickly from supplier negotiations to supplier collaboration because I fundamentally believed that there was actually more here. And if all we talk about is price and maybe a little bit of payment terms, I think we're leaving an opportunity out there for so much more that one we can do as companies, but more importantly, so much more that we can do as two humans. Because after all, the two people who are sitting are way more than the roles they play in the companies. These relationships go years and in fact I have to share with you and our listeners one of my closest friendships and long standing client relationships actually Came from a place where Christy was the head of procurement. And, you know, I was at McKinsey, I was a partner. We were about to do a big IT transformation. The head of IT had never told procurement that we were going to do this major thing together. And so all of a sudden, when the CFO found out, they basically said the head of procurement to say, stop it or figure this out. Why have not we been involved in it and so contentious. Right. You can imagine. And yet it became a source of unbelievable. You know, we got so close together and we created something from the same side of the table versus from opposite sides.

Right.

And I can see so many of these aspects that you highlighted that were key in that, you know, we were curious where the other person was coming from, rather than just assuming you're just here to do a deal and kind of bypass me. The self efficacy. She had done many of these. We had moved through many of them. So we knew we would be able to resolve and create something. I loved. We listened a lot. There was a lot of element of kindness. Right. I mean, this was hard. We had like basically 24 hours to get this thing done. So so many of these were present. And so I love that, I love those, you know, those lessons that you shared in life around how to kind of navigate this.

Yeah. And there's. There's one more thing. I mean, just yesterday I was teaching a group of entrepreneurs and one of the entrepreneurs in the room was. Has. Is now in a very male dominated industry, a business that she's decided to sort of take over. And in a. In a industry she knows very little about. And you know, she raised her hand and said, you know, I. My fear is I know very little about this business. I've never done this before. I knew nothing about this industry. And it scares me all the time. And I don't think I, you know, like, basically, who am I to be doing this? I wasn't trained for this. And I asked her if she had kids and she said, yeah. I said, do you consider yourself a good mom? And she said, I do. And I said, so did you take classes in being a mom before you became a mom? Did you know how to be a mom before you became a mom? And she said, no. And I said, and yet you just said to me that you're a really good mother. And she just sort of stopped. And I said, you know, there's so many things in life we were never. I mean, that's the whole point of this. Right? You learn, you grow. And that may have been the biggest challenge of them all. Right. And here you are thinking that you've succeeded and you had no preparation for it. Right. Like there was, there's nothing that, you know, prepared you for those moments. Because in motherhood, parenthood, it's not a moment.

Absolutely.

Many moments. Right. And I was like, these are all learned skills. And, and you've taken on yet another challenge, which I said undoubtedly. I promise you, it's probably going to be easier than the one that you've embarked on that you. You believe that you've. You've been very successful at. And so it was a really powerful moment because I feel like we don't give ourselves credit. And that's part of this growth. Right. That's part of this not counting yourself out, betting on yourself all the time. But part of that also comes from not thinking that you know everything, but understanding again, that, that all those, those experiences that you've had where you've picked up new skills, where you've again grown past a challenge, past a roadblock, that all those things are transferable.

Yes.

And. And it was just. I think we have to understand that and I think we have to remind ourselves of those things all the time.

Absolutely. I want to shift to something that you mentioned a couple of times in this episode, but also consistently shows up, which is if we have to connect, we have to first connect with ourselves. Self awareness. We have to know ourselves. And that's critical. No matter what you do, whether you're a leader, whether you're a mother, a parent, whether you're negotiating, whatever you're doing, Self awareness, you know, is at the heart. There's a reason self awareness shows up mori in all both our frameworks around organizational and individual flourishing. And I'm curious, in the work that you do in your teachings and your. And when you coach leaders, what are some practical ways that you suggest that leaders become more self aware?

I think that one of the first and maybe one of the more difficult in this day and age is, is mindfulness stillness. Right. In a world where we are consuming information at light speed on a regular basis, that so many of us don't even have the ability to create boundaries with other people, much less yourself.

Yes.

Right. And say, I'm gonna carve this space out and it's basically like quiet time and our. Or, um, I need to go for a walk just to even get some oxygen, my brain and think and reflect. And I think that people have to understand, first and foremost the really sort of very dangerous place that we're in where the consumption of information disallows the ability for stillness and quiet space. And so I think every good leader, every person, right, needs to take accountability for that and know when to shut off the devices. Know that, you know, if you're constantly busy and you're answering to this and responding to that and there's a crisis here and you're checking your phone and the emails and the like, where was that space? It shouldn't be like, oh, when I go to sleep, it's, there's stillness. I mean, no, like during the course of your days there's gotta be that point where you just pause and reflect. Right? So I think that's really, really important. I think that it's really hard. And why is that important? It's because it's very hard. You know, as, as we see sort of studies of leadership and what leadership was before, which was certainty and power and conviction, today we're seeing authenticity and vulnerability. And you know, these are the leadership norms, these are the things that draw people to you. And so the humanization of a leader, right? And if you are not self aware, how are you going to be authentic? Like who are you? Right. And so I think that's really important in this sort of the self journey and the understanding is vital. So creating that space, taking those moments, allowing for the self reflection, embracing the vulnerability. Because you may not like what you see. At which point there's work, there's people you can go to, there's support systems, right. There's, you may find that, you know, there are, there are issues, they have mental health issues that have to be dealt with. Right. And you may find yourself experiencing burnout, right. And if you don't know it's weird, people will be like, well, how do you not know that you're burnt out? Because we're, we're going at record speed and it's constant, right. So taking that time is super, super important. And I know that one of the things that you had wanted to talk about is this notion of sort of, of perfectionism.

Yep.

And that comes in this space, right. Versus sort of this pursuit of excellence. So as you know, as I know, perfectionism is impossible. And with the self reflection you may realize that there's work to do and vulnerability is not embedded in this pursuit of perfectionism because you don't want to show the people the cracks and you don't want them to see those vulnerable spaces. But instead if you start thinking, well, this moment of self reflection, these moments of silence will actually allow me to pursue A life of excellence which comes with wanting self growth, wanting self improvement, wanting learning, wanting a commitment to development is embedded in a place of compassion for yourself. Um, and so really the difference between those two things is I'm not saying reflect so you can become perfect. I'm saying reflect so you understand the cracks and you can develop and grow and pursue the best of yourself, the life excellence. Right? And so all these things are, I think, are really combined and married into one another. But there is no such thing as a perfect leader anymore. And I don't think people want that.

Well, I think I'm with you. In fact, you know, I think I would say not only there's nothing as a perfect leader, there is nothing like perfection. You know, if you look at nature, trees aren't symmetrical, right. Mountains aren't all like perfect shapes. I think we accept that as it is. That is, you know, imperfection is perfection.

Absolutely.

And we are constantly. The only point at which you can say, well, now I'm perfect, which means I can't change. You know, the only time you're perfect when you can't change is when you're dead. Because otherwise you're growing. And so you're either declining or improving, hopefully improving. Which means that yesterday's perfection was not today's perfection, Right? Exactly. So you're better today, hopefully than yesterday, not worse. And so again, like this notion of there is perfection in imperfection and we have to embrace that. I also love what you said about, you know, awareness. You know, I think for me, I think this was a big one, which is when we find stillness, when we find those moments every day, not when we are on holiday or when we are sleeping or exhausted. I think we can start to really look into where some of those beliefs were sown, start to come in, right. Why we act in certain ways, why we see the world. You know, we always talk about this on the podcast. You see the world as you are. No, not as the world is. And the way we see the world isn't something that we are born with. We pick up. You can only be a doctor, engineer or a failure is a belief somebody picks up along the way or perfection. You know, I picked that up when I was seven year old Mori, when I got a 97 on 100. And you know, you know, my mom told me that, yeah, you could have gotten 100 if you wanted.

Why did you get the 97? Right?

Yeah, like, and she was very loving. She's always been very loving. It, it's always been a big one for Me. But I think, you know, that set off a pattern for me, which actually, you know, going back to awareness, a coach helped break out of. So, I mean, for me, nothing but perfection matters. I was never happy with what I did, and I really used to push people hard. Right. It was really interesting because I had at one point, you know, this coach who was working with me, and I was telling him, you know, I just don't know what's wrong. These days, nobody seems to care about quality, and it's. Nothing is just happening. I mean, they just don't put in a good enough effort. Now, he was clearly saying I was frustrated. And he asked me, I said, ashish, is there anybody whose work you think meets your bar? Who do you look up to, who you worked with? Or somebody, you know, who you say, you know what? Their work is really, really good. And I really, honest to God, thought about it, and I said, you know, no one. And so he said, do you think where the problem is, you think the problem's with you, or do you think the problem's with the world? Right. That moment of awareness for me, like, oh, my God, I'm driving myself and everybody else crazy because of my own belief. And this story that I'm telling myself, I think became kind of this thing that freed me and again brought into me this other element of curiosity. I started getting curious, hey, what do you think, Morrie? Is what's required here to deliver and satisfy the client? Oh, my God. I started asking the client, hey, what do you want? Rather than feel I needed to know the answer. And they would be saying, hey, I'm paying you all this money. You should know.

Right?

Right. I can tell you, it really did save me. We were in the midst of COVID and a senior client. We were in this boardroom, and they said, well, you're the experts. What do you think? Right. Because I'd done so much of this work, it allowed me to, like, make joke and just say, I don't know. This is the first time I'm going through a pandemic. So I'm as much of an expert in this as you are.

Right, exactly.

Right. So, I mean, it just brought the level of levity into the room.

Right.

To recognize that actually we all didn't know and we were just trying to figure it out. Right, right.

Exactly. Yeah. It's. Again, people don't want to be that.

Vulnerable, but I don't know is the most powerful thing you can say in some of these situations.

And it's human. Yeah. We're not we are. We are just that we are human. And like you said, there's. There's beauty in perfection, affection. Easier said than done, though.

Easier said than done. So equally important in any negotiation, in life, in any conflict, frankly, knowing ourselves is a big part. But the second one is to be able to take perspective. To be able to take perspective from where others might be coming from or even what might be the possibilities. And Mori, you talk a lot about that. What are some of those ways in which we can learn to take two or three different perspectives?

Yeah, I think that when we're in conflict, it's usually because we're wedded to something. Right. Or there's a tremendous amount of emotionality. We take things very personally. Right. And we sort of dig and. And there's no propensity for like, oh, let's take a break. That doesn't come naturally. We just. If you're not aware, you sort of dig in even more. Right. And I think that. And we want to be right. Right. There's this, like, you know, I want to prove that my. My point is the right one, my perspective is the correct one. And then your ego gets sort of embedded in that. And I think that oftentimes, really neither side is probably right. It's that what you have sort of committed yourself to is that there's only one way of getting there. Like the path. Right. You may not even disagree around the destination. What you're actually disagreeing is how to get there. Yeah. And so, you know, and couples go through this. Married couples go through this a lot. You know, this happens in work environments, obviously. Hell, it happens in government, which we're seeing all the time now. People disagree. And so, you know, hard conversations are not the problem. It's that. And conflict is very natural. Right. Because if we didn't care, there probably wouldn't be conflict. If something was. If there was apathy, if there was, we just sort of checked out. Yeah. There wouldn't be hard conversations because it wouldn't matter. But when it matters, it's personal. When it matters, it means something to you. So how do you navigate those things? I think that, again, it goes all the way back to curiosity. That may be our term for today, Ashish. But really knowing that it's not like my way or the highway, but it's the. What am I missing? What is it that we're missing? What is it that I'm not seeing? Right. As opposed to. I see it all and I know it all. Right. So. And to have the ability to do that you have to be able to create distance. So whether it's that you say, you know what? Let's just take a break. Come back today, we come back tomorrow, we come back in a week, we need some clarity around this. Let's just take a break. And some people can even just walk outside, get some oxygen, take a deep breath. People underestimate breathing. It is very important, Right? Just the oxygen alone in your brain. But there's simple things you can do. But just to create that distance, that space, and the conversation that then you have with yourself is, we must be missing something. Like, what is it? What is it that we're not getting? Is there something that I'm reacting to that maybe I shouldn't be reacting to? Is it that I'm misinterpreting them or they're misinterpreting me? Do they understand my intentions? Right? And so when we can do that and, you know, negotiations. William Urie, the one of the authors of Getting to. Yes. You know, go to the balcony. And that just means, you know, rise above it for a minute. Not rise above it, where you're not a good person and you should be a better person, but rise above it and just look down almost and have a third perspective and say, all right, if you're looking at this as a play, almost, right? Like a playwright, like, what's happening in this situation? Where can we change? Where can we insert? What can we redo? How can we approach this differently? Then that clarity comes from the space which allows you to get perspective. Um, and I think that these aren't. These are really not hard things. Um, I. I always say, lean into those hard conversations. They're necessary. They are a part of growth. I worry about couples that say, we never fight, we never disagree. I'm like, boy, I don't know if you're ready for the one that finally happens. Right? Like, it's. That may be a really hard one, but, you know, it's. It's part of life, it's part of growth, it's part of conversation. And so embrace it. But just know that you have to get perspective when there's a clash, when there's a conflict, and maybe there's a resolution, maybe there isn't. But oftentimes it comes with that perspective.

I think I like both of those moves you mentioned so much, Maury. Right. Which is, number one. Remember to go to the balcony, get yourself off the dance floor so you can actually see the whole system and what's happening and what you are caught in. And Then I loved your question, what are we missing? Or I think the other question that I think could be. That also comes to me as I think about that when he said, what are you missing? Is how can I be wrong? Or how can we be wrong? And maybe there's something that they're seeing that I'm not seeing at all. Or there is a story I'm telling myself. And, oh, my God, I don't want to share the story because I might lose my power. But maybe sharing the story of here's what I'm telling myself. Tell me if this makes sense might invite a different question and a response from somebody else.

Yeah. And understanding somebody's why. Right. Like, why are they saying what they're saying? What's the reason behind this? And when you finally understand that. Right. What's driving them to this decision? What's making them behave this way? Then with that could come. With that level of empathy can come again. The forgiveness, the compassion, the opening of minds and hearts and the better understanding of each other. Because people get wedded to decisions because of life experiences and the way that they've internalized things. So once you understand that, then you understand reasoning. Right. And really intention. So, yeah, I think all those things are important. Again, here we go. Easier said than done, right?

Because Easier said than done. But this is why this is important, to remind ourselves, Right. Of these things. I want to touch on one thing, Morrie, before we close, because this is the other something you said that really stuck with me. And you write about this in the book. Talk to me a little bit about what you say when you say one of the biggest barriers to authenticity is perfectionism. Perfectionism keeps us from being authentic.

Yeah. I mean, I think we just touched on it just a little bit. You know, in the day and age of, like, you're scrolling through Instagram, you know, everybody's life seems so perfect. And the perfect beach and the perfect vacation and the perfect body at the perfect beach on the perfect vacation. And, you know, the very few times do we see people showing that level of vulnerability. And I honestly think that's why not that Instagram can't do this. But, like, TikTok, I'm so intrigued by it sometimes because, you know, it's so real. Like, I'm like, really? They showed that? And you see people crying and. And the breakdown moments and the, you know, the depth of the reality of themselves that they're willing to show and depict is the furthest thing from perfection. And a lot of those people have, like, this enormous Amount of followers. And I think that there's a draw in that. It's almost like the. It's funny. My trainer, you know, does all. He puts up these reels and what have you. And one of them I really loved. It was like so well produced. It was beautiful. And he's like, those are the ones that don't get as many likes. And it's because he said, he said people don't want to see something that's heavily produced. They want to see, you know, somebody being vulnerable and real and it's not perfectly produced and, and there's. There's again, there's cracks, right? And so I think that that perfection, which does not exist, right, Which. Which is near impossible, you can't be authentic because that's not you. It's a production. It's a. It's a movie. It's a. It's a snippet, it's a moment. The authenticity of you, the authenticity of me has so many different elements. It's the daughter that fears her mom's dementia. It's the sister that wants to protect my sister from some of the challenges that she encounters in her life. And so I'm more of a protectionist in that situation. It's the human that hears my own health and well being when I make no space to take care of myself. It's the aunt that worries about my nephew's future and their lives in the current world that we live in. It's my students and the person that I am when I teach that feels powerful and vulnerable all at once and has so much joy in those moments. So it's like all of these things combined together. Yeah, all of them together. And that's the authentic mori. I can't. I don't know a perfect mori because none of those pillars that I just showed you exist without my imperfection. And there's beauty in that. There's. There's a lot of power in that. So heavily producing yourself to show up in this world as the perfect person is not only impossible, but it's. It's actually, you're gonna be heartbroken. Cause it's, it's not. It's not achievable, right?

And you know, this notion of just knowing yourself and loving yourself for the imperfect work in progress that you are, and the fact that you wake up every day, many people don't wake up. And if you woke up, you have the choice. You have a choice. You have the agency to work on yourself and work for the betterment of others. Right? Is I think. And that can be our light, that can be our guiding light. And that choice. And earning back that choice.

Absolutely.

And moving forward. Look, Mori, we can talk for hours. Thank you for all the amazing work that you do. I think more than ever, in a world where we're becoming more isolationist, we are losing the ability to take perspective. We are living this almost inauthentic, perfectly curated, very lonely, broken, internal lives. I think your book, your work is so, so, so powerful. And I am so, I'm very grateful that you took some time to share your wisdom, your life journey with us and our listeners. Thank you.

Thank you. I appreciate it. This was just what I needed. It was a, it was, it was a pleasure. Like I said, I, I. The work that you do and this notion of happiness, we don't give it enough time and attention and we don't pursue it with intention. It just seems like a nice to have, but it's still very necessary. Right? So thank you for your work.

No, thank you, my friend. I mean, that's the reason I do what I do. This is my second mountain, I think. In a world going increasingly more volatile and uncertain and complex, the only certainty we have is to master our inner worlds and cultivate that calm and that love and that joy so we can deal with all the imperfections out there without, you know, feeling like, oh my God, how is, how do we move forward?

Absolutely.

Thank you. Absolutely.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love and meaning. Please consider leaving us. Review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember, happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week.