“Inclusify”: The Key to Unlocking True Workplace Inclusivity with Dr. Stefanie K. Johnson

This is what people want in the workplace, right? They want to be thinking and challenged and coming up with ideas and you know, their idea to be the one that saved the day and that their voice was so important that people reached out and tried to bring it in.

Hey there friends. Welcome to Happiness Squad. This is the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock your full potential by mastering the art and science of happiness. We bring on the best leading experts on these topics to help you unlock your true potential and live with more joy, health, love and meaning in your life. Your host is no other than the star combo of Ashish Kothari and Anil Ramjiani who are both on a mission to provide you with an unfair advantage to be the masters of your experience and leaders in your industry. Get ready to be moved, challenged and enlightened on this podcast. It may change your life. Thanks for being here and joining the squad.

Hey Happiness Squad. It's great to have you with Ashish and I as we host guests who are industry leaders helping individuals and organizations unlock their inner happiness and flourishing. Are you an inclusifier?

You're probably wondering what that means, so stay tuned and learn more from our next guest. Meet Dr. Stephanie Johnson, Director of the University of Colorado Boulder's center for Leadership and Associate professor at Lead School of Business. She brings evidence based leadership development programming to students, executives and universities across the country. Her teaching, service and research all focus on the intersection of leadership and inclusion. She's the author of a Wall Street Journal national bestseller, Inclusify the Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams. Humans have two basic desires, to stand out and to fit in. And companies typically respond by creating groups that send that trend to the extreme.

We have an opportunity to find that.

Happy medium where workers can demonstrate their individuality while also feeling that they belong. In this episode, Ashish, Stephanie and I delve into this space and unlock several archetypes and blockers. People not only want to be seen, they want to be heard. Part of the solution. In fact, individuals are 21% more productive when they are engaged. This episode will open your mind to possibilities that you can unlock in a space that may seem challenging. So stay tuned for tips that can have a profound impact on your leadership style as well as your organization's culture, happiness and overall performance. Join Ashish and I as we welcome.

Stephanie to the Happiness Squad. Hi Ashish. Hi Steph. It is a pleasure to be with both of you. Steph, after getting to know you briefly, there's one question that I love asking our guests to get Us started. And that is what is happiness to you? And how has your definition changed for you since your younger years?

Oh, it's such a good question. So I guess I hate to admit this, but when we look at the way people pursue goals, you know, we know some people are really focused on trying to maximize pleasure and other people are kind of avoid pain. And for me, I feel like early on happiness was trying to avoid anything negative. So that's the goal was kind of contentment, satisfaction. Like, let's not have anything terrible happening. And then, you know, maybe that comes naturally from my childhood or my early life experiences. But at some point when I got out of the mindset of avoiding fires, I started to think of happiness more as like trying to have some positive experiences, some joy. Right. Things like that. And then I thought that was the end all, be all that. That's how the model went. You got it away from the avoiding pain into the trying to have positive experiences. But then these new levels of happiness, I feel like, start to emerge as you go through different stages of life, that you go from contentment maybe to fulfillment, and starting to really think about happiness as meaning and purpose and impact in life. And so I'd like to think I'm there. I think there's probably more levels, right? I'm not done with the life I hoped. And so there's probably even other levels of happiness that I aspire to reach, but that's where I am. I don't know, maybe you both talk about this a lot on the podcast, but what's your definition of happiness? Or where are you?

Well, look, I think for me, I think, Stephanie, you're hitting on it. I think for me, I always. We talk about these nine hardwired for happiness practices, but you have to distill it. Meaning is a big part of what makes four a happy life, right? If you think about happiness less and if you think about joyfulness is the closest thing I call to happiness less as an emotion or a state, but more as a way of being. Joy as an emotion can rise and fall. Just like anger rises and fall. Pain, you know, suffering rises and falls, but grief rises and falls. But joyful is a state. And I think we do it through, as you said, meaning. And I think the second one, which is all of your work, which is relationships, you know, being in deep connection with others and enabling them to truly belong, I think is the second big element. The third is around just taking care again, something that I know you do is really important. Taking care of ourselves physically, mentally, Spiritually. Right. If we are not feeling well, our well being is suffering. It's so hard to be happy. Right?

Yeah. I would almost liken it to a buzz if I have. It's like this energy force field in me and outside of me and it's like I draw a line saying, you know, today's going to be a great day. Right. Things may go as expected or better than, or maybe not as expected or worse than, but at the same time it's what energy am I able to bring to anything I do? And you know, that powers me up exactly as, as you said with through relationships, through the work I'm doing, conversations I'm having and just that energy that just emanates both within and outside. So that's me. I appreciate you asking that. You're the first.

Oh, thanks.

That's the magic of Stephanie. So look, I love the premise of your book and I'm actually going to just read this. Right friends, and you can check her out on her website and her book. I highly recommend her book Inclusify. And she says this. Humans have two basic desires. To stand out and to fit in. Two basic stand out and to fit in. Companies respond by creating groups that tend to the extreme where everyone fits in and no one stands out or where everyone stands out and no one fits in. Can you think about those groups at your workplace? The question that she so elegantly tackles in her book, backed by tons of case studies and research is is how do we actually find that happy medium where workers can both demonstrate their individuality so we don't lose who we are, but at the same time we also truly feel that we belong. So that is what we are going to be digging into with Stephanie. So to help us connect this Stephanie to how if you harness these concepts, it results in more, more happier, more productive teams and workplaces. What have you found?

Maybe this should have been my answer to happiness because in so many arenas of life, happiness is, I feel like it's about balance. Right. You have to have opposing forces working together in harmony. And that's sort of the premise of Inclusify and what you just shared. It's this model, it's called optimal distinctiveness theory. And it's a unique characteristic of humans. Okay. Compared to other animals, that we don't just want to be one of the crowd. We also really strive for individuality. And I feel like this has always been true. It's like a basic human thing and I feel like it's more true than ever before. As a college professor, I Have the lifelong joy of every year interacting with and new group of 18 to 22 year olds. And although I sadly get older every year, they don't. Right. And so you get to observe this, how people kind of change over time. And you know, there's lots of stereotypes about Gen Z or millennials, but I think, you know, just observing, I feel like there's even more of a focus on individuality as important to one's overall identity at who you are. So in organizations, when you look at, I guess, the prototypes or what's the typical, I feel like we see a lot of, you know, high belonging organizations. And in tech, you know, I feel like that's really common. People, they wear the same clothes, they talk the same. You might call yourself like at Google, they're Googlers. Right. So you're, you're just one of that. And I'm not saying they don't have, you know, they, they've inclusified. Okay.

At Google, yeah, all McKinsey people talk in threes, you know, you know, a McKinsey consultant, because they always talk in threes. I'm like, isn't anything. Is this beyond threes? Nope, we only talk in threes.

Yeah, I only have two. There's two types of people, right? There's two types of organization. Uniqueness, belonging. On the other hand, you see organizations where they haven't really invested in creating that team feeling like we all are part of something bigger than ourselves and instead we're just a bunch of individuals. Like highly individualistic, like sales teams sometimes show up this way. We're all kind of battling each other. I think of it like the Hunger Games. You know, someone used that analogy at one company I worked with. Everyone can be successful. You just have to be more successful than the person next to you to get ahead. And then you have people fighting. You don't really feel like you belong. You know, you could just go to the next organization that offers you slightly more money or a better remote work policy because you don't care about the people or the group. You just, you know, it's just a transactional relationship. So to be successful, you really need both. This idea that people can be, have their individuality and bring it with them to work. And then maybe not in spite of that, but because of that, you belong. You're one of us. We're, we're all these unique individuals I think of. And maybe the company that really exemplified that for me was Zappos, the, you know, company. And they just want people to be their unique, weird Selves. And if you can do that, then you kind of, like, you belong. You fit in with our wacky culture.

Yeah. You know, the other company that's right in our backyard, that is a big part of that. Right. And I think they. I think, strike the beautiful balance between both, because I've seen their data is crocs.

Yes. Oh, my gosh. So I was gonna go on and say the same.

Come as you are, we want you to be individual, wear your shoes with pride, and you belong. Right. Like you belong. I mean, I love them and what they've been able to do, and look at the results.

Yes. One of our CFL center for Leadership board members comes from Crocs, and I did Inclusify workshops with them, and I feel like they embody that every day. And it is such a great local organization that's based here in Colorado.

Exactly.

You know, so, Steph, I work for Nike, and obviously our mantra is, if you have a body, you're an athlete. Asterisk. Right. And that's something that I get asked quite a bit, quite often is, oh, you must be surrounded by people who are top athletes, professional athletes, you know, all in great shape. And I'm like, actually, no. People with respect come in all shapes and sizes. It's the beauty of the. Of the business because, you know, it's their mind, it's their body, it's their spirit and what they bring. So I totally agree. I think companies where you feel that is powerful, I really love that individuality. And because of that, you belong. I love that. So, Steph, maybe as we kind of talk about, our listeners are probably wondering, okay, so inclusifying, how is that maybe different from diversifying or including. Maybe you could share with us some practical strategies or some key findings from your amazing research that show how organizations can actually implement in order to foster more inclusive, more innovative working environment.

Yeah, for sure. So first, how is inclusifying different? And I made this word up. I think. I think I made it up. So I think that, you know, where it came from is this idea of, you know, I'd say it's probably 2016, 2017. A lot of organizations were investing in diversifying. Let's add more diversity to our team. Seeing the data that shows that having diversity improves innovation, creativity, decision making, you're able to reach new target markets. Diversity is good. Right. And so companies were jumping on diversity, and then people would go to organizations, and some of the companies that I worked with said, you know, we did the thing, we hired the diverse people, and we're not getting the benefits. So what happened? And I asked the question, like, well, what was their experience when they got there? And these organizations were like, well, I don't know. That wasn't part of the directive. It was like, hire more diversity. And I'm like, well, okay, so here's the thing. If you have people who are with difference with different backgrounds and perspectives, as you, you know, you probably always do, and they don't feel like they can share those perspectives, you know, they're not welcomed to give their opinion, or if they give a different perspective, they're squashed. We don't want to hear that different point of view. Then you've lost all the benefit of diversity. You only get the. And there's actually meta analysis that shows like, some studies show diversity has positive outcomes. Another study shows very similar study. Diversity has negative outcomes, conflict, slower processes. How can this be right? Well, it seems that it depends on how inclusive the environment is. And so if it's inclusive, diversity pays off. If it's not inclusive, you get maybe no benefit or a negative even, because you have some negative outcomes that come with diversity, like conflict. And so you have to have inclusion. So that I say that's you have to have inclusion. What the heck does that mean? Right? I included them because they're here. That's pretty basic right there. Of course you're included. And it's like, no, you can't just letting people in the room isn't including them. And so I created the word inclusive to try to make it sound more like an action. You actually have to do something. And if you want to take it to the extreme definition in the book, it's really living your life and leading in a way that recognizes and celebrates differences and tries to bring those differences to light and, you know, to get their perspectives. But in the more practical strategies, it's like basically trying to make sure everyone at the table is heard is what a more inclusive environment would be. Think of your typical team meeting. You have people sitting around a table. Some people talk a lot, some people talk a little. Do you put effort forth to hear all of those voices equally? That seems to be the most fundamental aspect that causes people to feel included. And then you can extrapolate from that and say, well, are those voices also included in social events outside of work? Are they included in opportunities for growth and development with your blue chip clients? So in all aspects of success in the workplace, are you trying to amplify and elevate all voices equally?

You know, I love the fact that you Made that into a verb. And that's for a couple of reasons. For me, Stephanie, I think the first one is for a lot of people, they think diversity, equity, inclusion is kind of check the box, it's a leader thing, but it's a recruiting department thing. Right. And by making it a verb, what you're basically saying is, look, it is not a their thing, it's a you thing. And every one of us can be an inclusifier. It is what we do. Right. It is what we do that actually allows us to, to truly create an environment of belonging that truly makes sure people are felt by the way being valued and belonging show up as some of the highest drivers of what employees value and is directly tied. Right. That's why belonging and inclusive inclusion. This word inclusifying, is a core part of the Pearl framework that we work with clients on to help them use the science of flourishing to get to higher productivity, higher performance, lower attrition, all the wonderful things that managers want. And this is a really important skill to learn if you're a manager, if you're looking to succeed by delivering higher results, you truly can do that if you take actions and become an inclusifier.

I think that's right. And as you said, even if you're not a manager, if you engage in these behaviors. What one research studio, they called it, they didn't call it inclusifying, but they called something similar, voice granting. So people who actively engaged in meetings and said, you know, we haven't heard from you, Ashish, and you have this great experience to draw from, why don't you talk about your experience at, you know, at McKinsey and what, how that would impact what we're doing here today. So like inviting people in to talk.

Yes. I love that. Everybody don't just wait for the manager to do it. Everybody can be a leader. And you can notice. Right. Notice whose voices are not in the room and pull them in.

Yeah.

And it's certainly a win, win. So the people who felt seen and heard. Right. Well, you want to hear from me? Okay, I'll share. That was good. You know, we know that it improves decision making to hear different perspectives, but in that voice granting study, they also found that the people who engaged in this behavior were seen as more leader like and were more likely to get promoted. So even the people doing it like you're. You can be doing it in an altruistic way because I want you to feel seen and, you know, I want our team to be more successful. But then there's also Though you know, with me. Right. What's in it for me is people will see me as a more effective leader because we know this is an effective leadership behavior to bring out voices at the table.

Do you know this ashut reminds me of a conversation we had with Jessica Weiss. Sometimes you'll come into a meeting, and the leader loves to talk. Right. And you'll look. The leader, I'm sure, will look around and go, I've got a very diverse group of people here, diverse backgrounds, ideas, functions. But what will happen is he'll see them or she'll see them, but they may not hear them. So it's almost, I feel like an invitation to not only see it in the room, but as you said, Ashish, like, treat it like a verb, hear it, and let them speak up. Let them actually be part of what you're doing as opposed to just seen in what you're doing. And that could actually unlock more than maybe what people are experiencing today.

Yeah, I think that's huge. I love that you said that. And I feel like it's one of those things that, you know, we look at managers over time, and you gain a lot of great skills and experiences as you go through the workplace. But one thing you actually become increasingly bad at is listening, because people are coming to you for the answers. And so you get really good at giving the answers. But what happens when the leader in the room says, okay, we've come together to make a decision. I think we should do this? Everyone in the firm says, all right, sounds great. Our work here is done. Because unless you have a really psychologically safe environment or your leader is really an inclusifier who's like, I think we should do this. And now. You know what I want? I want you all to play devil's advocate. Challenge me. Rip my idea to shreds.

What am I missing? What have I missed?

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's so important, especially I'm going to tie this to. It's so important, especially in today's world, which is more complex, more volatile, more uncertain. You know, the rules of I know the answer and let's go do it. Is fraught with peril. And we can benefit, to your point from so many different perspectives that people might have even asking a question, how can I be wrong? Or how can we be wrong? And actually pull and create space for people who might actually disagree with the strategy to voice in.

Yeah. What one of my old coworkers used to say, every time we try to make a decision, he said, okay. The thing of that person who really hates us and really wants us to fail, what would they say right now? Like, well, no, that's not going to work because, you know, the naysayer, like, let's get our. Our naysayer voice on. I usually say it as, you know, what. What are we not seeing? What's the black swan event that we think this is a good decision, and we obviously haven't considered these other aspects, you know, and this is just really a cognitive framework. Like, we're thinking about how decisions are made, but tying it back to happiness. This is what people want in the workplace. Right. They want to be thinking and challenged and coming up with ideas and, you know, their idea to be the one that saved the day and that their voice was so important that people reached out and tried to bring it in.

It reminds me, you know, it directly ties Stephanie to write. We know when people are engaged, they are more productive, almost 21%. And, you know, what's interesting is this is a very powerful way to drive engagement. You want them to engage, ask them the question, get their voice in. Right. And that's why I go back. That's why I love inclusifier, because that's something that you can do to become that, versus, oh, I'm not good at asking questions. I'm not good at this. No, you can't. It's something you do, so just do it.

Absolutely. Yeah. There you go. Nike. Just do it. Right.

Just inclusify it. I'm just like, yeah, I'm ready.

So let's dig a little bit into this. Right. So, yes, we want people to be inclusifiers. Tell me a little bit about when you've engaged with companies and you've done this message. What are some typical challenges that you notice that get in the way?

Yeah. You know, so some of it is really structural. It's like, this is the way we've always done things, and that can really hold companies back from creating a more inclusive environment. And so, you know, some of these practices might be specifically inclusive. Some of them are like diversity practices. But, you know, if we wear suits and ties, and that's what our clients expect, and you might have employees who, or team members, though, want to dress in a different way or, you know, they have purple hair or whatever. You know, they want to show their difference. And that accepting and celebrating that difference conflicts with things like what the company views as professionalism. That's like a huge hurdle. Right. Like, or even for, you know, I use the belonging culture. And like, tech companies that they want everyone to be the same, because that's what makes their culture great, right? This is, like, we make it a fun place to work. We have heavy drinking. You know, like, lots of orgs before COVID here in Colorado would have, like, beers on local brews on tap. And. But this is who we are, right? This is our company. And it's like, well, you're not making room for these other people. But it's the fear of, like, well, what could we lose if we stop doing that? We can lose clients. We could lose that feeling of our core employee base that, like, they love the beer, right? If we got rid of the beer, what if they wanted to quit? We lose the fun. So it's that I feel like that's what usually stands in the way is the, like, the fear of loss. And now, you know, I'll liken this to my opening, like, what makes me happy. I think that's where I. I spent a lot of my life in that zone of, like, I'm afraid of what I'm going to lose, right? Not focusing on what I can gain. What I've seen with companies that I worked with is it's switching the mindset to, yeah, you might lose that, but what could you actually gain from having it? And I'll give you an anecdote, and I won't name the company, but they were. They're a big consulting company, and this is more of a diversity thing. But they were going to put a pitch into a client, and it's major global organization, and they were actually pitching in China. And so they walked in, you know, they're all in their blue suits, and they sat down at the table, and they're about to start the pitch. And the director from the organization they were pitching to said, why would you send in your B team? Why wouldn't you send me the A team? And they, you know, they're baffled, right? Like, this is a big accounting firm. Why? What are you talking about? What makes you think this is our B team? And they said, you sent us, you know, whatever the pitch group was 5% people, white men. And so are you telling me that all of your strongest players at your organization are white and male, and you just set this group to an organization in China? You have, like, no diversity on this team. They said, we'll let you pitch again, but we'd like you to come back with your strongest team members. And they went home and they told me this, you know, the story. And they were like, we hadn't thought about what we were potentially losing by not having diversity, we wanted to send in the people who looked the part, you know, and they had to really rethink, like, how are we hiring that? It is kind of true. If all of our top execs come from what's, you know, 31% of the population in the U.S. white men, are we really getting the best of the best? I think probably not, right? There's some talent out there that you're missing. But they were so fearful of making the change that it wasn't until the new risk became not changing that they were able to actually embrace change.

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Now back to the episode.

You know there's also such an important role that bias plays, right? In all of this, and you cover that in your book as well. Like, what are some of the biases that we have to be aware of as leaders? You know, those things, those lenses through which we see that we don't even realize we're seeing.

Yeah. So I'll say, you know, in the story I just gave, if you think about, like, how long you were confused about, why is that not the A team? That's a bias, Right? Like, because we typically think when we think of leaders, we do think. You know, since 90% of CEOs in Fortune 500 companies still today are white and male, how could that not be the A team? Right. Like, we have to presume that because if you look at leaders and they tend to be of a specific demographic, they must be the best. And so it's like, it kind of challenges your mental framework to think about, wait, there could be other talented people. That's a bias. Right? We tend to. And I, I'm not saying it's. I have the same bias. Like people. It's natural. I like earlier, Anil was said, the boss, he says, or she says, you know, you say, like, we typically say, he, you are better than most. You're better than the Rest of us, but say he or she because it's what we see and we're exposed to those become paired associations. In your mind, you think leader, you think male. You tend to think in, you know, in the US there's still a pretty strong bias against. Particularly like more East Asian, I would say. But if you look in tech companies, there is significant bias against Asian Americans. And so they're not hitting the top of companies to the same extent as they're represented in the organization as consistent with their skill sets, right? Like they're experiencing bias because if you look at their record and another big accounting firm that I worked with, they were specifically looking at the lack of Asian partners. And even though their performance was extremely high in all of the measurable domains, they weren't seen as a leader. Like, so that's a bias, right? Those are just race or ethnicity and gender, but just, you know, go from there. Like disability, I think age, you're too young, you're too old, or crossing those together. The intersectionality of bias, specifically against Asian women on sexual orientation or gender identity, like any kind of category where someone could be different than you, it has the likelihood of carrying some kind of bias.

And.

And then similar to me also, I'm sorry, I have to add that one, Ashish, it's just like, where is that bias coming from? Some of it's what we see, but then the other one is just like, of course I love Aneel because he went to CU and I'm a CU professor, and so I'm like ready to hire you right now. I don't know how I can get you, steal you away from Nike and Ashish, but we'll discuss that afterwards.

There is a way. There is a way. Stephanie, you can join us.

Oh, yeah, exactly.

Inclusion inclusify, right? Like, no, but seriously, they come join us. So look, I think it's digging into this, right? So this is really, really a big deal. Friends, like jokes aside, this is a really, really big deal because our need to belong and stand out, right? Remember, it's about. It's really. I think it's walking the middle pathway towards that. But if we do this, we truly create relationships. We really deepen relationships.

And.

And it's that fabric that allows us to really raise the collective intelligence of the teams we are leading and teams in which we are operating. From my time when I spent at McKinsey, almost consistently, what I found was if you could average the intelligence of the team, the teams operated way below that intelligence. Forget about being able to operate at the highest level of intelligence of the team. And by the way, most of the cases, it's not the leader, because if that's the case, then they're not hiding the right people around them. Like, if the leader is the smartest and everybody else is not, that's a problem by itself.

What's their problem? Like they're threatened or something.

Exactly right. So I want to get a little bit specific into, you know, things that we can do, because every one of us can be an inclusifier. Stephanie, talk to us around. You know, you basically broke the world into six archetypes for managers, and you had specific strategies that you recommend or at least watch outs for every one of them. So can we take some of them and dig into that?

Yeah, so for sure. I mean, maybe I'll try to go through the types. I feel like if I just rattle off, it's not that meaningful. But if you think about it, in this framework of uniqueness and belonging, there's some managers who are just not doing either. They're not trying to create a cohesive team, and they don't care about your individuality. They're like just, I just want to hire the best people for the job. Let the best person win. I'll, you know, pay on commission. This is like, I call that the meritocracy manager. They have this underlying belief that the world is meritocratic and thus the best people will work to the top. I don't have to do anything more. It's like, people just want to be successful. So. But what that misses out on is that collective intelligence that you're talking about. It puts people in a competitive framework rather than collaborative. And there are for sure we all have a little bit of these in all of us. But I feel like that is sort of less risky as at least you know who you are. Right. As a manager, the people who I found more challenging or it was more challenging for them to really make change were those leaders who thought, I am inclusive. I care about this because I create this really strong belonging, and then I just don't at all. I've never heard of uniqueness. I didn't know that was a thing. All I care about is we all have matching T shirts, and that's what they really invest in. And for those folks, you know, especially when you talk about feeling fulfilled and forming relationships, if I am being asked at work to walk a certain way, talk a certain way, and I'm not just being myself, I'm losing some of. Some of my cognition is always Being allocated to fitting in. I'm like, okay, how do I show up? Am I do the certain handshake? And like, I'm always just trying to control how I'm coming across versus just like, have you ever been in this environment? You know, we probably feel this way for you now in your own organization. You just get to be. Right. Just like, let everyone be who they are. You can free up a lot of mental space if people don't have to think about it. And then the third extreme is these managers who. And also these are like the white guys is what I call them. But. But they're so focused on the uniqueness that they're not spending the time bringing people together. And at certain times, they actually were creating divisions on their team because a lot of times they were like, I really care about diversity. And so I am going to work my hardest to support diversity. I love this, right? Like, I'm like, okay, how can I argue with these people? And I'm not arguing with their heart. Like, that's a great way to be. And you can't leave out half your team where they don't feel valued. If you're thinking about majority group members, I'll say white men in most US Contexts, if you've come down on a hard line of all we care about is diversity, you're making certain people feel excluded. So thus you're not maximizing collaboration on your team. Right. You're creating boundaries and you're going to get pushback. And I think we're seeing a ton of that right now. Right? This backlash against diversity and inclusion efforts because they maybe sometimes it's not gone, it's not done in the right way, where you're really trying to think about bringing in everyone, not excluding the people who had historically been the majority group.

Yeah, I mean, I always find shaming, guilting, always pushes things back. Right. And I think that is a tone to that. Like, I am kind of holier than thou and, you know, I need to kind of, you know, I'm really flying that flag high. Right. And you're doing an opposite behavior that inclusifying. Because you're basically saying, I'm different. You all need to kind of do it this way.

You nailed it.

I just want to say, as I listen to you, right? So I'm going to say I'm like, let's say mid to senior manager director in Nike. I can imagine our listeners who are probably at a senior level or higher are probably thinking, okay, crap. Like, wait, now I'm just. There's too much for me to process here. Not only am I diversifying, not only inclusifying. I'm now, you know, like, I can imagine that they're nervous, right, because we have a mentality of we want to go further faster, we got to get this done however quickly we need to get to. We got 30 minutes for this meeting or we've got a week for this deadline. I almost invite our listeners to pause and maybe this is an opportunity to go closer and slower. And the reason why I share that when I hear you is people are probably thinking, oh my God, I have a bias. It's an unconscious bias. I didn't realize it. I have to factor all these things that Ashish and Steph and Neil are talking about. And I think maybe the invitation here is just take that pause and just look around and like you said, don't just see, but listen. Ask the question, where do I identify and how can I unlock the opportunity here? And maybe Steph, just from your experience, if what I'm saying resonates with you, what actions can managers, leaders take so they don't see this as another hurdle or obstacle or speed bump that they're going to encounter? Rather the opposite. Like, what if I encounter this? What could I do that could actually reframe this into a positive, into an opportunity that can take the team and the organization further?

Yeah, I thought you said a lot. And it's if we're talking about inclusive, I. It's like a couple hundred page book, right. And so that's like really overwhelming to hear in a podcast. But I created this quiz that's called it's not inclusive dot com. You can go and fill it out and then it spits out, you know, there's no cost, doesn't do anything mean to you or anything, but it does email you your results. So consider the email address you put in there. You can put a fake one, doesn't matter, but it'll tell you where your score is and then give you specific actions that make sense for you. So it's not just there's a hundred things you could or should be doing. And even if you don't do that, even if you just, just from listening today want to make a change, I think just do one thing. Just do one thing and then let that be a gateway, an opportunity for you. And when you see and feel and experience the benefits, you will want to do more. So what's the one thing? I think it's trying to amplify other voices in the room in all the Rooms just, you know, I, I gave a workshop at a university this week and I made people pick a meeting they're going to go to and what they're going to do differently in that meeting. And some of them were like, well, and then we meet again in two weeks. So I only have one meeting between now and then, and I'm not running it. Okay, well, that's the meeting you're going to use. Okay, and what kind of great life that you only have one meeting in two weeks. But then what are you going to do? Okay, I'm going to look in the meeting for people who look like they're not engaged and I'm going to try to bring them in. I'm going to invite them in. Or someone else is like, well, I'm running a meeting and I have this whole, like, here's how to run better meetings, right? Like, send out the questions in advance so people know what the heck they're supposed to be doing when they get there. And then you can even have them like, send their answers in. Some people thought through things. So it's not just like the huge extroverts in the room who spend all the time talking because they think fast, some of us think slow. I'm like an introvert type person. So if I knew what the questions were, I would actually, I'd probably prepare. And this is, this helps me feel more confident in speaking up in meetings so that another person's like, I'm going to do that. Whatever. The tactic doesn't matter. The goal is the same. It's asking questions, trying to invite people in. You can popcorn like, I'm going to give my answer and then I'm going to popcorn it over to Ashish to give their answer. You can use the chat if it's a virtual meeting. If you haven't heard from someone and you feel like, oh, it might be kind of aggressive to like, call this person out. Just call them in in the chat and say, hey, I'd love to hear what you have to say. Or, you know, let's pass the mic over to this person, whatever, one thing. And then look at how the experience is different than your normal meetings and bask in that glory. Enjoy that, you know, experience that feeling and then do it again and do it again and do it again. One thing that's so amazing about this, like, very small change, is it's super contagious. I do it once and I'm like, you know, I don't think we've heard from this person. Let's hear from this person. And then after, I'd love to hear from you, other people start doing it too, because they're like, oh, that was cool. I'm going to do that. If she can do that, I can do it. And the next thing you know, you have really collaborative and inclusive meetings.

So, Steph, this is pretty cool. So when we did have this interview with Jessica, she said something. She had suggested this. I'm going to share this with you if you had a chance to listen to it. She said, imagine if you started a meeting and everybody got five chips, right? Like, literally put it in front of you. Here's a simple. Just to build on your idea of what you're saying. Everybody in a meeting, give them five chips. If you're a leader, give everybody five chips. Five each and every time somebody makes a point, see how many chips are on the center and just keep an eye out. See who has chips. And if you haven't had the chips, go ask. And by the way, you can do the same if you are not the team leader, but somebody participating in the meeting. If you see somebody sitting on five and you're on fun, instead of adding one more because you've lost your chip, you can actually ask the person who has all the chips what they think. And maybe if you ask that question, you gain a chip back.

Ooh, I like it.

Right? So if you want to make another point, first, get voice in, pick a chip up.

Great.

I love that. I love it. I feel like that's just a great way to make it concrete and not just, you know, I'm going to try to get people to talk, but you're measuring it. Chips are fun. I can fidget with them.

It's play. And, you know, play also creates a set of levity, right? We can. I mean, we don't have to make this stuff serious because that's the other thing with diversity, equity, inclusion, all of this. I don't want to make a mistake. We can actually have fun with it. You know, look, we all have biases. We all sometimes like to hear ourselves talk. We miss the opportunity from listening for others. Make it visual, make it fun. You can have different colors, chips around there and just see, I love what you said. Just notice how the quality of conversation changes. Notice how people leave that meeting, the level of energy they will look forward. Very rarely are there meetings that we actually look forward to, but I think this might be one that you start to create a wave where, oh, my God, I want to go to that meeting because I feel Heard and I hear from everybody.

Wouldn't that be great? There's. Yeah. Meetings you want to go to.

Well, imagine the meeting culture that everyone talks about, right? You know, 40 hours, quote, unquote, a work week, and probably 90% of that are in meetings. Add to that, you know, work that you're doing on top. So if you can get to the point where people do feel comfortable for those meetings, they are engaged, they are inclusifying. I think at that point you suddenly start to get the best of. And this is something Asha Xu and I've talked about. It's when people are engaged, like you said, 21% more productive. Isn't that what we want? We want a more productive workforce, more inclusified workforce. We want people to be engaged. We don't want them surviving at work. We want them thriving at work. Just a massive opportunity. So, Steph, you're familiar, I'm sure, with Ashish's nine Hardwired for Happiness practices. They're truly beautiful and I was curious. So we love to say we make happiness our community's competitive edge. From your side, which of the nine do you feel is your competitive edge?

Love it. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Is it cheating to say self awareness? Because self awareness is at the center, right? I think that's the most important for me. It's hard to get to any of the other ones without self awareness. And so I would go with self awareness. It's like. And I don't even know that I'm that great at self awareness, but it's the main. One of the bits that I invest in because that's going to unlock for me, I think, the other aspects.

Do you know? I agree with you. And so something I'm currently doing at the moment is our Rewire program. And Steph, the reason why I raise it is I think sometimes people think just being self aware is. I'm listening, I'm seeing. It's more than that. What are you observing and then taking a step back and really understanding the actions and the results. But more importantly, your body, your emotion, your language, there's so much, much there. It's what I'm doing as part of my coaching certification at the Newfield Network. I think that when you start to cultivate that self awareness, you start to really unlock possibilities that initially weren't really coming to you. So on the back of that, Steph, as we wrap up, we would love to get to know you a little bit better outside your book. So you as a person and for those that haven't read the book. Please check it out. Even if you want to sample it. I love the story you shared, by the way, Steph, about how you had to change your outfit three times before you finally got to work. And that was. Yes, I'm sure many people can relate to that. As parents, we want to do a bit of a rapid fire with you. Fun, insightful, whatever comes to mind. Feel free. All right, so the first question I'd love to ask you is, what's your song when you want to turn your frown upside down?

Okay, I'm, like, not a very big music person, but I don't know what I would pick. I don't actually own any music. That's so weird. So the only. I like I own a cd isn't that weird. Of Barbie Girl. And right now I'm, like, super obsessed with the Barbie movie, so I'll say I'm going Barbie girl.

So I'm going to joke with you on that one. When I was at CU my freshman year, that was when Aqua released Barbie. Barbie Girl. And so I actually had the single. And yeah, that great song pumps you up.

I was in college.

We go see and. Hey, Ashish, were you gonna say something on that one?

I was gonna say, we're gonna send you. We are curating some of our favorite songs from all the folks who've come on the podcast. At the end of the year, we're gonna release a playlist. So we send it your way.

Hanga's playlist. I dig it. Okay. And I promise for the rest of the rapid fire, I will answer rapidly.

No, that's cool. We're getting to know you. This is. I think that was awesome. So, Barbie girl, right? Here we go. Number two, your favorite comfort meal. That just again, makes you feel great.

Popcorn. I know it's not much of a meal, but it's really. I mean, nothing makes you feel better than popcorn.

I hear you. Next one. Your favorite book, Inclusiva. It was either that or Hardwired for Happiness. I was waiting for one or the other.

I know. I was trying to decide, should I go Hardwired. That's like, more generous. Hardwired for Happiness is my favorite book I've read lately.

No, that's cool. Aisha, should you have one?

I was going to say, what's a book that you read along the way, Stephanie, that really made a huge dent in your life?

Good to Great is one of the probably early, early books that I read that. I mean, it's not even for me. I mean, I guess, like, I work with organizations and stuff, but I think that's the book that got me really into management and leadership and understanding organizations. I think it's just. It's just a good book. It's good research. It's, like, communicated in a way that I'm like, what researchers can actually communicate with people? That's amazing.

Love it.

I think your book is an amazing book to read because it is filled with stories and I. It was such an easy read. Thank you.

The last one is a bit of a gimme. Or maybe not. Your favorite sport brand.

Nike. No. No, it's not. I'm sorry, I. I'm contractually obligated to say I can't even do it. I'm sorry. I can't do it. My. I have a child who is obsessed with Adidas.

That's cool. But you know what's cool about that is you actually said it the way they do here in Europe. Cause whenever I'm there, I'm going to Adidas. Like what? Like Adidas. Oh, yeah. So, no, that's totally cool. Hey, the world needs.

I will say he's had in his school, he has done. They're doing the stock market. You know, he's like, in fifth grade. You like what? And he came home and said, mom, Nike is a bigger brand. It has more market share than Adidas. What am I going to do? I'm like, I. I mean, I don't know, switch brand brands, but it's because I think they sponsor his soccer team. Yes. And Messi. So I would say Nike, but I. I gotta support the kid.

And Eliza excited us, too. So I am excited.

Oh, no way.

Okay, I am. So you were gonna go, right? Either way. You know what, Steph, this was absolutely beautiful and brilliant. I just want to say thank you because again, a topic that you raised, I think we hear about, but I think the perspective that you've given us with inclusiveness is absolutely brilliant. I encourage our listeners to check out the book. The one thing I do want to do after this is I want to get that website from you where folks can actually do the Inclusify matrix. Put that in the show notes. So folks that are keen to give a step at that, I think they should give that a go. So thank you so much, Steph, for your time. I appreciate you and I appreciate Ashish.

Thank you.

It's very fitting that you make the show a joy to listen to, but also to be on.

It was wonderful. My dear friend, you're doing such amazing work. It is so much fun. To collaborate with you. And yeah, thank you for being you.

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