Integrating Science and Spirituality with Neil Markey

Yeah, to me, meditation and psychedelics, I mean they're kind of, they're inextricably linked, they're pointing at the same thing, they reinforce each other. If you look at spiritual tradition, you look at indigenous tradition, they're, they're together, they enhance each other.

So.

But we don't talk about them together often. And so yeah, I mean MBSR was, was kind of the first formal program I did and I loved it because, you know, it's, it's Dr. Kabat Zinn. It was a very sanitized approach, non spiritual approach, which at the time I was, really, was, was good for me. Like I didn't really want spirituality. I wanted something to help me feel better. And you know, he studied in the east under Buddhist practitioners, but knew he couldn't bring meditation back in that form into a clinical medical setting, which he was trying to do. So he sanitized it. And really if you just bring, break it down, it's just practicing present moment awareness. It's paying attention to the present moment on purpose, without judgment.

Hey there friends. Welcome to Happiness Squad. This is the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock your full potential by mastering the art and science of happiness. We bring on the best leading experts on these topics to help you unlock your true potential and live with more joy, health, love and meaning in your life. Your host is no other than a star combo of Ashish Katari and Anil Ramjiani who are both on a mission to provide you with an unfair advantage to be the masters of your experience and leaders in your industry. Get ready to be moved, challenged and enlightened on this podcast. It may change your life. Thanks for being here and joining the squad.

Hey Happiness Squad, it's Anil and Ashish. So our guest today is a gifted mathematician at a young age who now sees no real divide between science and spirituality. Neil Markey. He is the co founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats. He's passionate about sharing the science backed benefits of psychedelics in conjunction with contemplative practices that support holistic well being. I know this is a new space for me and I'm excited for you guys to hear more. A little bit about Neil. He actually was a captain in the U.S. army Special Operations, 2nd Ranger Battalion. He was deployed once to Iraq and twice to Afghanistan. After that he got his MBA and MIA at Columbia University. But he suffered from depression and ptsd. This actually led him to alternative well being practices and actually it marked the start of a profound healing journey with mindfulness and, and psychedelics prior to Beckley, Neil worked as a chief growth officer for a $450 million private equity portfolio company where he was responsible for all strategy and growth planning. Before that, he worked as a consultant at McKenzie Co. Where he also led the internal mindfulness program. Today we explore how he credits meditation and plant therapy with saving his life. And and stay tuned at the end for a few special points that both he and Ashi share to unlock a new way of thinking and living life. Feel free to reach out and connect with Neil at www.beckleyretreats.com and at his podcasts that are available at various sites. I know that I personally, he's unlocked a new space for me and I really hope it does the same for you. And now please join Ashish and I as we welcome and explore the psychedelic and contemplative space with Neil.

It's nice, so nice to have you with us, Neil. And I am delighted for our listeners to hear a bit about your origin story and, you know, what has gotten you through here. You know, look, mental health is on the decline. There's so many listeners, there's so many people out there, right. Who struggle with mental health. Talk to me a little bit about how the struggles that you had with mental health and how you allowed, and what were the experiences that allowed you to get to where you are, where not only, you know, are you, you've kind of overcome some of your mental health challenges, but now are actually leading a company to help so many others in this world.

Yeah, I'd love to. Oh, and to be clear though, I still struggle, right. I mean, yes, I'm not at this point where everything's just easy breezy, but I, I'm in a better place for sure now than I was years ago. Yeah, I mean, for me, the story starts, you know, I was in my undergrad and I was, I was studying math and I thought I was going to go to the intelligence agencies and do cryptology. I had a bit of a gift in math and was, was, was super into it. And but then September 11 happened and, and that really, that changed everything. And long story short, I ended up leaving school for a bit. I enlisted, I came back, I did the officer training program and I went in as an officer and I ended up with an infantry platoon in Iraq, which was quite a challenging experience. By the time we got, we had realized that this weapons of mass destruction story was not accurate. And so it was really challenging being there and knowing that it was kind of for not. And, and then I ended up having like the stars have to align a bit. You have to get a bit lucky. And I did and got an opportunity to go try out for the Ranger Regiment. And the Ranger Regiment is a really small special operations unit that does the direct action missions with the intelligence agency. So I ended up kind of circling back into the intelligence agencies, but through a whole different, you know, path. And, you know, part of me loved was it was really exciting. You know, the President was talking about the mission these guys were doing on the news. Pat. It was Pat Tillman's old battalion. So he was the NFL football player that gave up his multimillion dollar contract to come in to serve. So he was like a hero, you know, I mean, larger than life. And Leroy Petrie got the Medal of Honor when I was there. So, I mean, these guys were doing incredible things, and it was really humbling to be around them and, and to participate. And I, you know, I was more of a planner. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't a badass. I was like a helper of badasses, to be fair. But I really, you know, I did what I could while I was there, and I really looked up to these guys, but it was, it was traumatic. It was incredibly traumatic. The mental health was in such crisis. Guys were getting hurt, guys were getting killed. It was so bad. We had three suicides in 90 days. At one point in time, it was. It was so bad that there was a congressional investigation into the unit. And so it was thick. You know, it left a mark on everybody. My hardest deployment was the deployment I didn't go on. I. I ended up staying back as the assistant rear detachment commander. And I was a bit looking forward to it because I kind of wanted a little bit of a break and. But I ended up being the one that was doing the notifications. So I was going and visiting people's families and letting them know that sons have been killed. So it was a lot. And I got out and was again pretty lucky and got into Columbia University for graduate school. And I was doing well by a lot of measures. I was at a good school. I was getting job offers at places like Bain and McKinsey and BCG and. But I was really struggling. I was going through a divorce and I was isolating. And, you know, I had tried lots of different traditional kind of approaches like SSRIs and anti anxiety medications, and nothing was really working or it worked for a bit and then it wouldn't work. And I was. I was in a bad spot. And, you know, I. I was so Lucky to stumble into this course that was being held at Columbia that was called Mindfulness for Business Leaders. And I didn't even know what meditation really was. And this man that was teaching it, who was doing his PhD at Columbia and had started the Mind Kind Institute by the name of Home Nguyen, was the first person, I think, that actually kind of saw through my well put to do what? Well put together exterior, right. Like I was able to fake it. And he knew how much I was struggling and he took me under his wing and he taught me meditation. And I would say that that saved my life. You know, that kind of was this first opening into this different way of being and these different practices. And then around that same time, that same year, kind of through the same network of individuals, I was able to use psilocybin with magic mushrooms for the first time. And although I had tried it recreationally in my youth, it was the first time I had done it with intention and as a way of kind of healing. And that was profound. You know, that was a significant event in my life that kind of put me on this path. And then I had a handful of years through graduate school where I went very deep on meditation. I was going on lots of different long form programs. I was studying meditation, I was trying different techniques, I was practicing a lot myself. And I was also experimenting with psychedelics. So I was doing them on the underground in the United States. And then I was getting into Central American and experimenting as well. And I was doing well. My anxiety was going away, my general happiness was better, my relationships were improving, I wasn't using alcohol. And then I, I started a business with my brother. I, I finished school, I moved back to my hometown and was working on that business full time. And this is when I got my teacher certification in meditation. So I went back to Jefferson University and did an MBSR teacher certification. And so I was, I had all like these amazing things in my life. I was doing something I was really passionate about. I actually was going back to the intelligence communities and teaching meditation to them and teaching meditation to business leaders. And I was working on this small creative business with my brother in my hometown. I had community, I had purposeful work, I had a strong like, well being meditation practice. And amazingly everything then kind of syncs up and it flows and it's not as a struggle, right? And then the next kind of inflection point was I had been deferring this job offer with McKinsey Co. And you know, the business world puts McKinsey on this pedestal and I asked for another deferral and the partner that I was kind of staying in contact with was like, Neil, no, we love you, but we're not going to be your permanent backup plan while you're out there kind of, you know, starting businesses. And, and so I ended up going and I, I, part of me loved it. You know, I mean, it's such, it's brilliant people working on these really huge abstract problems. I'm a lower middle class kid from Frederick, Maryland, so it is a bit sexy to then be in boardrooms and staying in nice hotels and first class flights. And so it was, it was exhilarating. And I got to co lead the internal mindfulness program with Kanye and Manish and that was something I was really passionate about. So I loved that.

Yeah, so we're talking to Manish later today as well. So, you know, as somebody who's been in the business world who's practiced meditation and is also kind of really doing his bit to spread the power of meditation and mindfulness into work, yeah, we are excited to have him.

Yeah, he was a, he was a really great mentor. But that was also the period where my, my mental health kind of started going the wrong way. And I had this, you know, year few years at McKinsey and then I ended up in private equity doing restructurings.

Which was, you know, just stressful.

Stressful. And you know, what I realized now looking back is environment matters, alignment with work matters. And you know, I'll say this now, but I just don't think that, you know, it's a noble cause making Fortune 200 companies more efficient, you know, like, God bless the people that do, but it's just not for me. And, and the restructuring stuff was even more challenging because it was just about the money, you know, and, and I'm not proud of, of, of what I was doing during those years, but I had kind of gotten off track and I had gotten pulled into this material world and consumerism and just prioritizing myself and it made me miserable. And I ended up getting to a point at the end of that private equity time. The environment was so toxic. It was just everybody's worried about themselves and it's all about money. And I ended up in almost as bad a place as I was coming out of the military, right, in terms of anxiety and not being able to sleep and my relationship struggling. And I finally got to a point where I was like, well, I'm just, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. And I left and I was like, I Gotta find work that's meaningful, kind of like money be damned. It's just like, you know, I had a very high salary and a fancy title, but I'm miserable. So it's like, this isn't right. And I got back to what I knew. I knew that meditation was. Was important to me, although I had lost it over those years. I kind of. I got back to the basics and then I ended up back in Mexico and I started teaching meditation. And then this whole thing with Beckley has come out.

Neil, can I pause you for just a minute? Because I think for many of the listeners, I think what you've just described, I want to just re echo that because it is such a common experience and even all my work, so common that we are at the top of our game. We have the titles, we have the salary, we have the house, we have the fancy car. But we are miserable, we are suffering, and we just rather be on the treadmill, right? Because at least we are progressing rather than truly, truly face our demons, really dig deep. And there were two or three things that you mentioned, and I want to share those. I think the first one was, of course, the power of meditation and mindfulness and finding the stillness within. But there was another element that you echoed, which is meaning, which is again, something we talk about in the Hardwired for Happiness book. How important it is to do the work that is coherent with who you are and how you world. It was the same story for me, right? It was that lack of coherence which caused my anxiety in my journey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. And what I've realized is that, like, even if you're not thinking about it on a daily basis, like, oh, this isn't my work, your body knows, your central nervous system knows. And it's going to try and give you signals and say, hey, is this what you're supposed to be doing? And we don't want to listen to them. And a lot of times we use alcohol and other things to drown it out. So it's that stillness. You've got to like, you've got to create that stillness so that you can hear it. But, you know, my body was trying to tell me for years that Nick Neal, this just isn't. This isn't your place, you know, and it took me a while.

You also highlight this notion of awareness, right? True awareness of what's actually going on. Because so many of us are not even connected to our bodies. And so even hearing that and recognizing that we are struggling and not trying to numb it out with alcohol or drugs. But sitting in that discomfort for the true wisdom to arise, I think is an important practice that can help us get up with better answers. Anil. Sorry I interrupted you.

No, actually it served a good purpose because what you just mentioned on awareness and sitting on it, not numbing it. I know we talk about stress and your backgrounds respectively at McKenzie and private equity. Someone like myself who is in corporate, I work for Nike, and it's all about, hey, if you have a stressful meeting or a stressful day, go for a run, go to the gym, exercise, you know, kind of sweat it out. And I would say to you both, I still don't see that always as a solution. And I want to go back to what you guys are both mentioning, that you can be miserable, kind of almost in a quiet quitting sentiment, if that makes sense. Like where you're not, you know, working, you know, around the clock, you're not traveling, you're not, you could be in a situation I might be in, which is you're, you're doing a job and you have outlets to, you know, feel less stressed, to kind of almost give yourself a bit of downtime. But I would almost say to you both that unless you proactively look after your mind and your body in conjunction the way that you both have kind of described it, I also have to say that that is critical because you may not be on, you know, one extreme, you might be in the middle, but you still may not be happy. You may still feel miserable, but just, you may not do enough because you may feel like, ah, you know, I'm okay. There are others that have it worse than me. I'm okay. But no, you're not okay. You might be in the middle, but do something about it, otherwise you'll end up thinking you're okay and you're not. So I just, it's, it's that, it's that part of me that I feel may not relate. But it's, I think it's, it's interesting what you both say.

Yeah, and I think that, I mean there's this like spectrum of well being and at the one extreme there's like severe trauma like, you know, and this, you know, like I had a bit of a rock bottom and I, I'm, I'm fortunate for that rock bottom because it like forced me to look at things differently, you know, it forced me to search out something. Right. And that was super helpful. But I think even as you come up and you kind of like move up that well, being Spectrum. You can go from just like, you know, punching the clock to like, really thriving. You know what I mean? And I think that, that that's like the things in Ashish's book that's. It's like, how do you get from kind of just getting by, but to like, being so inspired by your work and your life that you're, like, just more filled with energy and like, you're. You're like. You're emitting that into the world as opposed to just like, you know, getting the paycheck. And, you know, it's so. But everybody's so different, you know, and everybody's got to kind of find their own. Own way, you know, they have to.

Find their own way. And I think that's beautiful. You can't. You cannot follow somebody else's way. And there are so many who try and follow. Look, I know consultants do well. You know, senior executives do well. So they start going down that path versus finding their own way. And it's so beautiful. And it's such a shame, Neil, because I see it all the time. Right. If you look at the Gallup results, Gallup polls, only 30% of the people are engaged at what they're doing, which they love, what they're doing. It is meaningful to them. Right? And they're showing up with their full potential to do the best that they can. 20%, close to 20%, are like, you know, actively disengaged, which is. They hate it. And they will do anything to kind of, you know, actually not progress. They're just there to earn a paycheck. And 50% in the middle are just kind of like, yeah, this is a job. Right? And so to me, that is such a big waste of human potential. And by the way, also the source so much of the suffering, anxiety, and stress that I see, because if you have to put up for 8, 9, 10 hours with something that you don't really feel like doing, it's, by the way, the second most activity that as humans we do. The first is sleeping. It's 33% of our lived lives, and we live that life without meaning. Why would we not be stressed, exhausted, burnt out? Why will we not take those frustrations, you know, back to our homes?

Yeah. No, and it's. It's so. It's so true. It's like it, you know, those toxic environments or those below optimal environments, you take that stuff home to your family, you take it to your friends. It. You know, it really. It really affects you. And I think that. I mean, I also have Heard people say, well, you know, my. My job, maybe it's not my life's work, but it provides what I need to be able to kind of, like, you know, have the resources to do this stuff. I love, like, outside of work. And I think, like, that's fine too. It's just really, like, tuning in. And like, I don't think that, you know, there's a way to write a prescription for, like, everyone to say, this is the right life, but there's a way to help people tune into themselves, to figure out what really works for them. And I think that, you know, you could have all different types of. Of arrangements in your life, but, you know, you've got to kind of like, actually do the introspective to see, like, is this. Is this on path? Does this really work for me? And I would encourage people to think boldly. I think that the world can almost operate in like, a bit of a. You know, it's. It can be magic if you really, you know, I wouldn't just say that, oh, I've just got this kind of, like, mundane job. But I think that most people, if they really want, can find, like, a really purposeful work that they bring their really, like, their. Their genius to. They bring their best to just on that.

If, If I may, I. I think it's also to segue back a bit to. To the psychedelics and. And kind of that space with you, Neil. And so something I'm curious about. So I. I have. I live in Amsterdam. I have friends who smoke pot in order to kind of overcome their own issues or, you know, go. They. They drink alcohol and so when I first thought and heard about psychedelics and I did trims years ago, I was thinking, oh, my God, this is just going to be pursued as how this is. This is not healthy. But now when I hear you and I hear about psychedelics and meditation and how those two come together, I think, how can you maybe start talking us through maybe how some of those myths. Maybe how we need to kind of bust some of those myths and like, how actually psychedelics, meditation together, how you are able to find stillness and that deeper meaning in conjunction and not. Yeah. If you don't mind.

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Yeah, and Anil, if I may and maybe just answer it in two parts. Neil, right. Number one is, look, I think for the first part of your journey, meditation was your salvation, right? Meditation helped you find your way, MBSR and teaching it. So talk a bit first around. How did meditation help you find that stillness? Like, what did you actually do? How were we doing it? How often? What technique? That one that helped you find the stillness to start to find what is it that you really wanted to do? Find your meaning. And then second build on that with Anil's question to say, and then how did psychedelics actually further accentuate that experience and accelerate your journey towards, towards, you know, what you're doing now?

Love it. Absolutely.

Yeah. To me, meditation and psychedelics, I mean they're kind of, they're inextricably linked, they're pointing at the same thing. They reinforce each other. If you look at spiritual tradition, you look at indigenous tradition, they're, they're together, they enhance each other. So but we don't talk about them together often. And so yeah, I mean MBSR was, was kind of the first formal program I did and I loved it because, you know, it's, it's Dr. Kabat Zinn. It was a very sanitized approach, non spiritual approach, which at the time I was really, was, was good for me. Like I didn't really want spirituality. I wanted something to help me feel better. And you know, he studied in the east under Buddhist practitioners but knew he couldn't bring meditation back in that form into a clinical medical setting, which he was trying to do. So he sanitized it. And really, if you just break it down, it's just practicing present moment awareness. It's paying attention to the present moment on purpose without judgment, which is just like such a simple and beautiful way. But for me, I mean, you can do it even now, like just sitting here, listening. You can pay attention to whatever is in the now. So you can pay attention to the breath sensations in the body, you know, audio, you know, whatever you hear in your ear, taste. So all these things that are in the now is different than the mind running around and being lost with. And Dr. Kabat Zinn would say in the thought stream. So the mind can go to the future, to the past, or it can go into this space where it's like calculating, judging, making sense of measuring, right? Like that's a mind state. And all the work is, is putting the attention, awareness on the now. Usually you start with the breath, and then the mind runs away. And then you'll notice that the mind has run away, and then you just bring it back to the breath. And this is the exercise, this is the work. This is the lifting of the weights, is noticing that's happened and resetting. And when I started, I'll never forget practicing at school and noticing that I couldn't even count to two. My mind was. I was so amped up. I was such fight or flight, and my mind was just pinging all over the place. And I would try and stay on the breath, Boom. Mind would jump around. And it was really frustrating. But I had this sense, keep practicing, keep practicing. And after a while, you get to this place where the mind will stay in the now. And it's almost like a snow globe. Like, you shake it up. Like, my central nervous system was shook up. There was so much distraction. You know, I'm like running around like a chicken with their head cut off. Although I'm like functioning, I'm functioning well. And what meditation does is it allows things to settle. And it's that stillness. And when you have that stillness, then like the. The truth presents itself. Like, are the more meaningful things, all the distractions settle and you're able to kind of respond to things as opposed to react to things. You know, you're able to choose, right? And it's that stillness that there's in such incredible value. And I mean, we've studied this. We know this from a science, from a, you know, like a research perspective, that it has all of this medical benefit. You know, what I Mean, MBSR has been shown to be more helpful than sleeping pills, and they use it for chronic pain. And there's really cool studies around it on its ability to help cancer patients because the mind is just so powerful. So getting it to settle and then being able to focus that attention. And then there's all this research around performance enhancing. So I mean, Olympic athletes use it right this present moment awareness, practice. Because you're, this is, it's like essentially you're getting into more of a flow state, right? You're becoming, you're sinking into the. Now Special operations soldiers use it, right? To be, to be super tuned in. Business executives use it. And then there's also this like, you know, spiritual world, right, where, you know, I don't talk about this a lot when I talk about meditation, but there's something quite magical happening. And if you look across through all the religious traditions and indigenous communities, meditation is a foundational thing. So there's something magic. And it's like for practitioners that have done it for a long time, they get it, but it's hard to articulate this, this, this magic. And, and so that was super helpful for me. And then, you know, I started using psychedelics. And to me, they, they, they make meditation more robust or more where if you, you know, a new meditator used to you, they sit down and, you know, they might have that same struggle as me not being able to count to do two. If you give them a micro dose of psilocybin, they can sink into the now more easily and then they can experience these benefits more quickly so that then it kind of hooks them more and they're more willing to do it where, you know, it's, it can almost accelerate that timeline where, you know, and a lot of people, meditators out there have said similar things where it might take 20 years for you to develop, you know, a certain level of meditation practice. And it's, it's hard to articulate what that really feels like and means. But there's people that have dedicated their life to this. And I can, you know, after 10 years, I can tell you that there's.

There'S these different levels of maturity pattern.

Goes up the mountain. Yeah, and, and, and psychedelics can for sure in some way shorten that window and accelerate that timeline. Then large doses, I think, can give you almost a picture of what it means. Like, they talk about, you know, meditation is like walking up this mountain your entire life. You may never get to the top, but in some ways, psychedelics kind of take you up to the top. And you can get this understanding which is beyond the rational mind. You can't explain it in the rational mind. It's, it's, it's in the body. It's, it's an intuitive knowingness. It's like a gut feel around what this means and psychedelics consume you up there and then you get it and then you're like, this is why it's so important for me to sit. And that's why they're, they're, they're, they're so powerful. Because a lot of times people try meditation and they're like, well, yeah, it's kind of nice. Maybe I get my, you know, maybe it makes me feel a little bit better. But they don't understand like the profound benefit. And this gives a glimmer into that and then it helps people have the discipline to practice.

Yeah.

And you know, I was researching this for my book, right. When I wrote the book and I think what I found to be really interesting. Right. For our listeners. So as you look, as you tune into what Neil is saying about this fundamental right, you can take your whole life to be walking up the mountain or you can actually get there. There are two things in play from research point of view, right. That get here. So if you think about our brains, our brains operate in these two distinct networks. We have the default mode network, which is the rumination part of the brain. It's the part of the brain that is constantly looking at, it's the prediction making machine. It's basically saying what's going to come get us. Often for those who've actually gone through trauma or those who are in high degree of stress, it's this network that keeps getting stronger and stronger. There is a second part of our brain. This is the task oriented network, which is when we are focused on something, we're truly there that's helping us perform. Now you can imagine when we do meditation, it is basically helping us lower the activation in the default mode network, but it's also strengthening our ability to stay with the tasks. The task oriented network. As I looked into the research, one of the things that were really, really effective, what psilocybin was doing to the brain was that it was actually truly weakening the default mode network. For a moment almost those activations lowered so the rest of the brain could actually all of a sudden wire up. And that's at the heart when you have a much bigger, literally your awareness grows bigger from just what is going to come get me to who I am. The broader universe around us Right. So it's literally just focus, it expands the focus. And that is why, you know, Neil, I think might be behind the effect that you're talking about, which is accelerating. Because you can continue, you know, if you can accelerate the weakening, if you will, of the dfn. And then through meditation when you're in a pliable state, when all of a sudden you're. The whole brain is lit up, which is what it feels like. When you look at before and after images of brain on psilocybin, you can actually now start to actually form deeper ridgeways, you know, truly strengthen through meditation the task oriented network and hence the acceleration on the path up the mountain.

Yep, exactly. And like we talked about earlier too, like this, this over indexing on self, like the ego centered life where I'm just going to try and maximize my own well being or my own material possessions and I'm going to try and climb this ladder for myself. That's not a path to well being. Like we know that. And what psychedelics help do is they help break that down, that orient orientation towards self. And it's like, it's super beautiful. But you can give people this experience where they feel this interconnectedness of everything. And actually if you really want to get nerdy and you look at the physics, it's true in the physics. So like we are all connected, right? We are all part of the same human life ecosystem. And once you start orienting towards that, that's how you get filled up. When you start orienting more towards the self, me, me, me, and trying to grab all the things in the world, that's not going to fill you up. So it's that reorienting towards the collective versus the individual that really gives people long lasting happiness and contentment and joy and, and, and that, and, and kind of, you know, the ego will also tell you you need to follow this path. You need to do, go do the, the, you know, the path that's going to bring you the most wealth and it's the one that's most accepted where if you challenge that a bit with meditation and psychedelics, it frees you up to follow, you know, what's really true for you as opposed to what you know, the rest of the world is doing.

So you know, listening to the two of you, I find this fascinating. And I have to be honest with both of you, I've not done as much research into the space. This is very new to me. So you know, something Neil, you and I spoke about earlier was, you know, disbelievers people that may not fully understand. And again, they may liken this to a shortcut. You know, this is a shortcut to the top. You know, taking psychedelics, okay, that may not be good for you or what are some long term effects meditation, we get it, that's good for you, but I may not have the time for it. How do you maybe explain to the listeners that hey, it's maybe not what you think. There's actually something more from a layman's terms of how you need to appropriate and approach the two together in a.

In a, in a healthy balance. So I think the goal should be, you know, to use psychedelics as a tool, kind of as needed. But like it shouldn't be. To use psychedelics all the time is a crutch. And, and there's a difference I think between using plants or drugs, whatever you want to call them, with intention as a tool and, or as opposed to a band aid or something that's helping people like just tune out and kind of bury what's there. You know, there's a big difference between alcohol, which tunes people out and psilocybin which has the potential to kind of help you tune in and more clearly see, see what's there. And you know, psilocybin, it's, it's, it's non addictive. So you know, it's, it doesn't pose the same risk as a lot of other drugs. It actually looks like it's neuro regenerative. So it looks like it's generally healthy, it's non toxic, you can't overdose from it. And you know, for the skeptics I say look at the research. And I've got some studies that I love, you know, and there's one that's really well known. This is, you know, I think, you know, all, all things should be kind of measured on this like risk versus reward spectrum, right? You know, drugs, you know, you know, everything we kind of activities. And there's this really famous 2010 drug harm study that actually Amanda Fielding with the Beckley foundation, who I'm working with now, was the architect for. But basically they looked at, you know, a lot of the known drugs in the world and they kind of did this analysis and they said, okay, let's look at the harm and the harm to self and harm to others. And they racked and stacked them and basically the output is this chart which you can Google and, and it's basically net harm for each drug. And can you imagine what, what drug do you think is at the Top of that list in terms of harm. Oh, boy.

I mean, I want to say cocaine.

Alcohol, in a way, and that we use at every corporate event. It's like part of our culture. It's like, if you don't want to drink, you have to explain why you don't want to drink. It's like, are you okay? It's like this. It's wild, right? And it's so bad for us. In this analysis, you know, what was the absolute bottom in terms of harm to self and harm to others? Psilocybin. So, I mean. Yeah, and this is.

This is.

This is. The thing is, like, our perceptions do not match reality. I mean, this is true, you know, just generally. Right. But particularly here. And it's just these legacy mindsets that really, I think, come out of the drug war, you know, and this is when we classified these things as this Schedule 1. And we said that if you take them, you're going to lose your mind and jump off a building. And those are just urban myths, you know. And so if you give people the data and then. And help them, you know, see the research, and then I think these personal stories are really powerful, too. It's like people that they respect, once they find out that those individuals, you know, have had positive experiences, then you can. You can get people to change their mind a bit.

So, I mean, just on the back of this, I mean, that was. That was incredible. I mean, again, opening my eyes in terms of how this all comes together, just how, Neil, maybe could you share with us, how can you, our listeners, how can people learn more about this amazing work that you are doing at Beckley Retreats?

Yeah, well, they can reach out to me. They can check out the website, which is just beckley retreats.com Beckley comes from the Beckley foundation, which is Start, which was started by Amanda Fielding, who's been, you know, studying psychedelics for decades. And the Beckley foundation is. Is one of the world's leading research nonprofits for psychedelics. So we have, like, a real institution behind us that's professionalizing this work and bringing it above ground so that more people can get access to it safely. And, yeah, we run programs in Jamaica and the Netherlands. And, yeah, we have a. We have, like, a very structured kind of research, informed approach. You know, we have a preparatory period that's done digitally where we teach meditation and breath work, some of these complementary practices, and then we bring people down for six days and we do those practices together in nature, which is really important. The science is definitely pointing in that direction. Doing it in groups is really important. Science is pointing in that direction too. So we kind of put it all together and then we have two psilocybin sessions and we use medium to high dose. And those are usually quite profound for people. People have really powerful, meaningful experiences. And then what we do, I think that it is unique and quite different from what's generally out there is on the back end. We have six weeks of integration done digitally. And from a neuroscience perspective, this is really where, you know, this is it. Like the mystical experience is really powerful. And sometimes just that on its own can be really meaningful to people. But you have this window where the brain is in a more plastic neuroplasticity. People have heard this term, or malleable state. And so if you are conscious and you do the work in these weeks following, you can lay in these new pathways, you can break up old connections, you can put down new connections. You're more likely to kind of get habits that actually stick. So that's why we have this like, comprehensive programming approach.

But yeah, yeah, no, we will for sure be able to share this. So, Neil, this has been an amazing conversation. You know, if you was in closing, three tips that you could share to our listeners, right. That can help them combat anxiety, you know, really be happier, more in charge of their own, you know, flourishing, take charge of their own flourishing rather than kind of worry about chasing the external markers of success.

Right.

Truly unlock their full potential. What would be three tips that you would share to our listeners?

I mean, part of me wants to say meditate, meditate, meditate. I think it's so, it's so foundational. You've got to find a time to do it and you've got to give it, you've got to commit to it and do it consistently for a few months or you just won't really. And then you just start to see the benefit. I mean, it takes time. So just believe, believe the research, believe the people out there that have been doing it for a while and have experienced this transformational benefit. You've got to figure out a way to do it. But I think, you know, meditation, spending time in nature is also really important. I mean, shockingly, you know, we need nature, we're part of nature, but we've really removed ourselves from nature. But it's core to our well being. I think we need to look at it more, more like, like water and food and then do nice things for people, you know, like really just think about the people you know in your life and just try and tell people you love them, try and give people a hand. You know, just hook people up. And, and, and that is really like you start orienting towards others and you start giving and you start then. Then that's when you really start feeling great.

Such deep wisdom, my dear friend. Thank you. Meditate. Spending time in nature, you know, you said.

Yeah.

I mean, we are nature. Right. We are nature. We forget that. We forget that sometimes.

Right. I love this. Like, if you look at the brachial of a lung, right. And then you look at a tree, they look exactly the same.

Yes.

And they're reciprocal. Right. It's so obvious. If we stop and think about it, we need it, you know, Love it. Yeah. Well, thank you guys. This was super fun. I love what you're doing.

And listen, Nell, it's our pleasure to have you look in this program. At the core, what we are trying to do with this podcast is to introduce to listeners different ways that we can rewire our brains from fear to joy to happiness, to unlock our full potential. And Neil, it was so beautiful to have your voice where you shared not just about meditation, but also how psychedelics can, together with meditations, make us wake up from this kind of focus on self and really dedicate ourselves right towards service, towards kind of really, really being able to get rid of our anxiety and be happier. Thank you.

Thank you, my friend.

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