Leadership Development Through Music with Susan Drumm

I think the beginning of change always has to be the self awareness piece, right? And so everything I'm talking about is how do you build a greater sense of self awareness? How do you notice that you don't see 360 degrees? Right? And you're not built to as a human being, but you can still grow within that. And that's the exciting part. So what would it be like to widen that perspective?

Hey there friends.

Welcome to Happiness Squad.

This is the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock your full potential by mastering the art and science of happiness. We bring on the best leading experts on these topics to help you unlock your true potential and live with more joy, health, love and meaning in your life. Your host is no other than the star combo of Ashish Kothari and Anil Ramjiani who are both on a mission to provide you with an unfair advantage to be the masters of your experience and leaders in your industry. Get ready to be moved, challenged and enlightened on this podcast. It may change your life. Thanks for being here and joining the Squad. Hey Happiness Squad. It's great to have you with Ashish and I as we host guests who are industry leaders helping individuals and organizations unlock inner happiness and flourishing. If you don't like a song on your playlist, what do you do? You change the tune or just remove it from your playlist. But what if there's an internal playlist within you that doesn't serve you? How do you change or remove that tune? Our next guest shares how Meet Susan Drum, CEO of Meritage Advisor, USA TODAY bestselling author and leadership coach focused on helping leaders and their teams develop the capacity and mindset to lead in today's disruptive environment. She has personally coached billionaire CEOs, high profile political figures, prominent Fortune 100 executive teams and incredible entrepreneurs that are setting out to disrupt the marketplace. She holds graduate degrees from Harvard Law, Carnegie Mellon University and the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. She's a two time number one bestselling author of the Leaders Playlist where you unleash the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership and your life. In the book, Susan unveils a groundbreaking process that outlines how our childhood wounds show up in our ability to lead others and how music can actually heal those wounds. Ashish, Susan and I discuss this in detail and probe further to understand how our body keeps score and how the real trauma from adverse childhood events has a profound impact on how we are as leaders. Join us to hear several stories and tips that can transform your life and get you off that eight lane highway to hell. So join Ashish and I as we welcome Susan to the happiness squad and rewire Away from Fear together. Ashish, Susan, it is an absolute pleasure to be with both of you today. You know, Susan, learning about you prior to the podcast, learned so much about you and excited what we're going to discuss today. But the one question that's always top of mind for Ashish and I and our listeners is what is happiness to you and how has it as a definition changed for you since your younger years?

Yeah. I think what is happiness is really being present. That's where all the power is. That's where joy lives. And so much of my life I was living in the future and a little bit in the past, but we'll be talking about the Enneagram. I'm an enthusiastic visionary, so I tend to think about the future, future planning what's going to happen next, thinking about the next, envisioning everything from great vacations to projects to work. And truly, I can find myself lost in it. And. But that doesn't necessarily bring happiness. And happiness is when you lose psychological time because you're so present in the moment and you're so focused on what you're doing that it literally transforms how. And that's where my power is as a coach, and that's where I found my happiness lies as well.

So beautiful, Susan, and so such a pleasure to have you on the show and connect with you. I know when I was launching my book about a year ago, you and I connected.

Yeah.

And you know, we had planned this seed then it just took a while for it to germinate. Right. To germinate and kind of come to fruit here. But I love that. Right. Being in the moment. You know, one of my teachers, I follow Thich Nathan, he passed away last year.

Yeah.

But he says this beautiful thing. Your appointment with life is in the present moment. It's in the heal here and now. And yet so many of us are chasing something out there. Either like what's going to bring us happiness or what's going to alleviate suffering. But in both of those moments, we actually forget the joy that every moment actually holds in it.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So I love that. I love that. That, you know, that's how you kind of defined it. Look, I mean, you know, you've had an amazing journey. You've had an amazing journey. The work you've done at Meritage Leadership is inspiring. You know your new book, the leaders playlist. Right. From a musician to law to where you are. Walk us through a little bit of those, you know, key moments that have shaped you into who you are and the work that you're doing. Susan?

Yes. Well, my career path is definitely unique because actually the acting and music school came five years after law school. So I went to Harvard Law, but did not end up practicing law. I figured out very quickly that it was not going to be the right career path. But what law taught me is honing the skills of making finer and finer distinctions. The use case for that is case law in law. But I use the same thing in mindset. But what I also discovered about myself is that I have one of my strengths is this ability to see patterns and pattern recognition. It's really how I got into law school. I took eight LSAT tests and noticed the patterns of the way they asked questions. And then when I actually took the test, I got a near perfect score just by seeing the patterns. But I never realized how I could use that later in life. And the reason this is important because when I talk about my book, it's about using music to both identify patterns that are getting in your way and interrupt those patterns and create new ones. So the pattern theme is all along, but went from law school to BCG consulting. That's something else we share in the management consulting world. And then went from there to NBC Television doing business development. But also I was a master black belt in Six Sigma because GE used to own NBC. And you know what I learned? That you could have the greatest strategy in the world, but if the culture doesn't support it, you're dead in the water. And that's really what I saw with a lot of the Six Sigma pieces trying to get integrated and into an entertainment company. And I also had the experience, or let's just say now, the privilege of working for some very poor managers. Because my experience of how challenging that was as a bright, eager worker, be ready to go, and how it just deflating. I decided to take a time out at that point, and that's when I went to get a master's at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. And people thought I was crazy, but I was truly just burnt out from I don't know what I want to do in the world. This is bizarre, right? I just. I have to feel passionate about what I do in order for me to put the kind of effort that I want. And I've just felt myself very unmotivated. And I knew I loved acting and I knew I loved music. So I went and did that and really it was that experience that transformed everything. Because I kept thinking, gosh, what you learn as an actor, some of these leaders could really use this in business. And a lot of it was, how do you deal with the inner critic that voiced inside your head? Because as an actor, you have to get a handle on that. How do you build deep empathy and this ability to connect one on one with your fellow actor. Right. And to be in the role and empathy for your character, and what is that like, even if they're a villain? And I kept thinking, gosh, there's gotta be a way to bring this back to business. And that's when I got interested in the field of leadership development back in 2002, and really started to think that from a consulting and coaching perspective, that's the direction I've been doing it ever since.

So powerful. So powerful. Right? And if you look at that pattern. You know what I love about that story of yours, Susan? There are like two or three things that really resonate, and I really hope our listeners take inspiration from your journey. You know, one, this notion of, look, it actually doesn't matter what degree you got or what you've invested. If something isn't bringing you joy, change it rather than just continue down the path. Right. In businesses, we see this all the time. You know, sunk cost fallacy actually holds true much more in our personal lives. I'm already vested. I've spent 20 years as an engineer, 10 years as an MBA, as a lawyer. Can I actually change now? Will I change it? What am I giving up? It doesn't matter what you've spent, what you are learning into. Right. Meaning is so important and the willingness to step away. So I love that that you did that after going to the top school for law. It wasn't just like I went to the Poughkeepsie Law School, and I kind of decided you went to Harvard Law, which is amazing. I think the second part of what you just articulated is again, something you and I share, and it's so, so true, which is this notion of one just quietening that voice.

Yeah.

That inner critic. You know, I 95% of leaders, according to the research, and it's 100% of the people I've coached. I'm sure, Susan, it's no different for you. They can be at the highest level. Doesn't matter if they're a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. But there is this imposter syndrome. I'm not enough. I'm going to be found out. I'm not doing enough. That Kind of gets in the way. Right. And I think this notion of. I love it there. Oh, my God. As an actor, I never thought about it, actually, that that is one of the biggest things that you have to overcome to be a good actor is just stop worrying about what people will think of you or what you're thinking about yourself.

Because it's also, by the way, taking you out of the present moment.

Yes. Because what if. Right. How Others versus here. Oh, my God.

Yes. The best actors are incredibly present. I mean, so present that you feel.

The power in that you feel the power and then empathy. Right. Like, not just empathy with. You mentioned with the other, but truly empathy with the character. So deep. Right. And you can't. Like, in that way. Sometimes you say, well, you're acting. And I think you put a little bit of a thing for me right now. And you know, which was. No, they're like, so in that character walking, the shoes of the character, that they appear so real. And I think what a powerful skill, because I think for many leaders, one of the biggest sources of suffering that emanates, I find, is because they actually can't feel what the rest are going through. Right. Because their experience is so different. And we found this in my work at McKinsey, where the more senior you were, the more disconnected you actually felt from even the COVID crisis that people were going through. They're like, I don't get it. And they forget that you have more resources as a leader. You have more visibility to information.

Yes.

Right. And you actually have more agency. And so, like, even being able to connect that deeply, I love it. I. Oh, my God. This is. I never actually made the correlations before.

Yeah.

Beautiful. And now what do you think?

You know, there's a quote that was shared with me by a colleague during lockdown, ironically, and it's in order to be present. He's like, where are your feet? I'm like, they're right here. He's like, right. Be where your feet are. Be in the present. And so that's always whenever I need that little mental cue of be in the present. It's like, up. Be where my feet are. Look down. Up. Yep, there they are. I love what you both are saying. And what I really would love to talk a little bit more about is patterns and patterns that you've observed and how patterns play a role in leadership. You know, when I looked into Meritage, first off, I'm a big wine fan, and so that was, like, already an affinity to your business. That's great. What I'd love to understand is I know we're in the present and we're trying to build leaders for the future. Could you share with us, Susan, how did patterns play a role, or how have they played a role for you, and how you therefore coach or instruct leaders that you've dealt with and how they can plan not only to lead themselves, but also organizations and the teams around them?

Well, I think this is really what I uncover in the leaders playlist, which is you lead from the child within. So even though we say let's be present, what I often see is your perspectives. We need the past to inform us. Right. Your perspectives are governed by what came before. And what I saw over the years is that leaders weren't responding to what was truly happening in the present moment. They were responding with a filter that was colored and shaped from the past, always. And so I kept seeing their childhood wounds show up in the workplace, bottom line. And so that's why I have this phrase now, you lead from the child within, because that comes with some superpowers and some liabilities, and the superpowers are what make you a great leader today. But we're often not as present to the liabilities of that. And that's why Maritage is about a blend. The right blend, the right balance of wine. And I believe that's true with a leader. You can't have too much of this, too much of that, that you can still build your superpower. Because I've seen it. I've seen people lessen, still have their superpower, but lessen the liability that shows up with that, because that liability happens to be old statements about their beliefs about the world. So, getting back to your point, Ashish, about the imposter syndrome, what I found and what I articulate in the book is these old playlists, things like, I'm treated unfairly. I. I am not good enough. Right. I'm an imposter. I'm not safe. I'm only loved if I win. These are all old belief patterns that you don't go around saying, this is what my belief.

Yes.

But yet. And this is what was hard for me to discover about myself is like, and yet I keep. When things go wrong, I. The place I go. For me, my old playlist was untreated, unfairly. And yes, I could tell the story, and there's lots of circumstances that say, oh, yeah, you were treated unfairly here and there, but I must be putting out that, let's just say, frequency for it to get returned back to me. Yeah, and so I didn't recognize that that was my old playlist. And when I say playlist, I'm using it both figuratively but also literally because it's a vibration and so is music. Music is also vibration. And that's where the power of music comes in to shift it.

Yeah, I want to get into that, Susan, to talk about, you know, this notion of energy, the playlist, and also the connection back to our neural pathways. Right. Because that's kind of where we go, the inner child, you know.

Yeah.

So much of this is even just helping. You know, we use. I use slightly different words, but even just saying, hey, listen, if you can learn how to hold a truth versus the truth. Yeah, right. There is space because the truth is informed from your beliefs, experiences, and all of that. And if you just keep living, then that will be the only truth you live because you're just recreating what you had in the past and you're putting that energy out there and you're seeing from those lenses. So talk to us a little bit around. You know, I loved your book. Thank you for when you sent it to me. I really, really loved it. You know, all the work we do here at Happiness Squad is around neuroscience of habit formation and helping people build neural pathways. Talk to us about the ability of music and how that can actually help us enhance, amplify new ways of experiencing the world and shifting.

Yes, yes. Well, at a bottom line is music impacts all regions of the brain. It's pre language. It is so core to who we are that it has a powerful impact to prime the neurological landscape, to be able to make new neural pathways form more quickly than they would without. So I use music in the process that I go into in the leaders playlist. It's both using music to interrupt old patterns. Or what I call your eight lane highway to hell. Right. And what I mean by that, what's your eight lane highway to hell? Your eight lane highway to hell is. Do you ever notice when things get under your skin and they just trigger you? And when that happens, you find yourself either stewing about it internally or maybe losing your cool externally? Right. That is the eight lane highway to hell. And so what I want leaders to see is that's a pattern. All that is is a neural pathway that's been grooved in so many times, all we need is a triggering event and we're speeding down that highway. Music can actually interrupt that pattern more quickly than other things that I've tried to interrupt. Right. The triggering pattern. And it also not only can it interrupt it? But if you want to change and build a new neural pathway, because imagine you've got an eight lane highway to hell if you're trying to build a new habit, that's very hard when the eight lane highway is so easy. So instead we want to make it easier and more quickly for you to build an equally idyllic pathway that's also eight lanes, not the drive through the countryside that's bumpy and rough as it is anytime you're creating a new habit. And music will facilitate that or is like a fertilizer to facilitate that process. I mean, if you think about Alzheimer's patients and the impact of music on the brain and I don't even think we even recognize and there's even more research going on now. I know Huberman Labs just came out with a podcast on the impact of music on the brain.

Yes.

Is that you? If they put their music on for Alzheimer's patients, they just who are unresponsive, they'll just literally come alive and start talking and engaging. And there's an increase of happiness of eye contact. And this can be seen on an MRI where all parts of the brain are now actually those neural pathways that have been gone dormant because of Alzheimer's are all of a sudden fired up. And this will last for a good 20 minutes after the music stops. Right. But then eventually sort of fades back. So if music can transform an Alzheimer's patient in that way, why can't we then harness music to shift some of the deepest seated patterns that we have going on that get in our way and transform them to be a more enlightened human that we hope to be.

Susan, just to dig into that, because this has been now pun unintended playing in my mind since you've been talking about it, maybe just for our listeners, how has or how have you incorporated music? Can you give us an example of how this works?

Yes. Yeah. So I, I'll tell the example and.

Susan, especially in the context of a trigger, right. So like when you are being triggered, like talk to us a little bit around. Because the technique I often tell people is breathe. But tell me about how you actually can use music in those moments too, and before and after.

Yes. Well, I'll tell this story. I talk about it in the book Deborah, who was a leader who got some tough 360 feedback that she was trying to be too controlling and insert herself into various meetings and events that were happening where it was not her swim lane, so to speak. And she was the chief marketing Officer of a tech company. And from her perspective, she needed to be included in order to be effective at her job. Right. So what would happen is, and that's what we looked at is what was the trigger is like when she would see an email that she, like she found out about something after the fact and she wasn't copied on or she wasn't invited to a specific meeting that she felt like was really going to impact her division, she would end up being irritated, frustrated. Right. And that came through in her interactions and what she was saying sounded. Yeah, she does need to understand and know. Like you could easily share that perspective. But what I was curious about, why was this showing up for her in the first place? And where else in her life does it show up? Because it's. I can guarantee it's not just here. Right. So we got very clear on what was the emotion she was feeling when this happened. Right. And what was she kind of saying to herself? And part of it was that she felt excluded. Right. And she was angry. The core emotion was anger and frustration. So I said, where else in your life does that occur? And she said, well, same thing happens when my ex husband takes the kids to the. What was the family lake house that's now just only in his name. And I feel excluded from that experience. Where else in your life? Think further back. Right. Oh, you know, I guess I remember in college I didn't get into my top pick sorority and I didn't even get picked in for my second or third. And I felt excluded again. Where else in your life, what's the earliest memory you have of that? Well, if you go back to her childhood, she had an older sister who in her mind was the vivacious, blonde, pretty one. She was the mousy shy one. And all the neighbors would fawn over Clara but not really give her much attention. And so the perspective got built right then and there that she's excluded. So now she's hypersensitive to situations where she's excluded. But more importantly, she's broadcasting the message because there's a belief in her that she's excluded. So she's going to continually create experiences in her life where she is excluded. And so once she's clear on that pattern that this is a deep seated pattern, we use music to interrupt that by tying it to like, what's a song that emotionally has that same resonance, emotional resonance, that you're feeling of being excluded? And for her it was Adele's hello. You know that song, it's like, hello, can you hear Me, I've been calling you a thousand times and you're not picking up the phone. Right. And that song, she could really get the emotional state, but how she was acting like Adele in that song when these things happen. So when she started, she. Her practice was when she got the email that she would normally fly off the handle on. Or when she found it, she could stop and go, oh, there's Adele again. Right. And kind of like sort of look, I'm being like Adele in the song and interrupt that pattern. So that's an example of how we use music on a pattern interrupt.

Hi, friends. We hope you're enjoying the tips discussed in this episode. If you're on the career treadmill, seeking the next promotion, experiencing stress and anxiety, or reach the top of your career and wondering if the sacrifices to get there were worth it, Ashish and I have been there, and we're ready to support you. The happiness squad rewire program is designed to integrate the nine hardwired for happiness practices into your day. Within five minutes form proven habits to experience more success, resilience, satisfaction, and creativity. You won't be alone in your journey. Check out the rewire link in the show notes. Make happiness your competitive edge to achieve your goals. Now back to the episode.

So this notion of really deconstructing the experience to find the almost kind of, you know, the go deeper, deeper, deeper, till you actually find it first. Right. What's the wound? What is the core wound?

Yep.

And then really. Because then you start to see how that shows up in all these places. And then from that, basically what you're saying is think about what's a song, what is something that actually captures how you feel and what's going on underneath the iceberg, so to say.

Right, Right.

You're acting out this way, but what's really going on underneath? What are the thoughts? What are you saying to yourself? What are you feeling? What are you physically feeling? And once you've done that, to some extent, you've actually created that inner experience into an object that now you have more control over. Right. You can actually start to kind of keep that front of mind. And when you start to feel that way, you say, oh, here we go again. And in that pause, actually consciously be able to shift.

Yes. If you start recognizing that you have this pattern, then you have more control versus you're captured by what's currently going on.

Yeah. And how much suffering that causes.

Yes, yes. And then people say, well, where do you go from here? It's now what's the new neural Pathway you want to build and how do you want to feel going forward? And for Deborah, she wanted to feel. She says, what I want to feel is peace and appreciation. And I want to feel this sense of I bring peace and appreciation. That's how she clarified it. So that was her. Her old playlist title was I am Excluded, and her new playlist title was I bring Peace and Appreciation. And so her work was to create a playlist that had that emotional resonance for her, what songs literally, that she could connect to, that represent that to her and build a real playlist of at least 10 songs. Right. And also to have a bit of an anchor song, I believe. Like, it's good to have sort of these anchor old playlist, new playlist songs this old in the new playlist. Her job was not only to start to practice this resonance, right? Practice the skill building of, huh? What is it like to sit in priest and appreciation? And her other job was to notice where she was included, start paying attention. She was invited to a glass of wine by the neighbor, Right. Her kids invited her on to the grandson's baseball practice. Right. Start paying as much attention to where, you know, your eyes keep going to. Where am I excluded? Where. Where are you included? Where are you included? So that you can broaden the story that you're telling yourself about that and the belief that you're holding about it.

Look for disconfirming evidence of the negativity bias where your brain is taking you.

Yes.

Right. Look for proof. And it always exists. So much more.

Yes. And the more she did that, the more she. She could interrupt the pattern, the more she could look for places, the more her frequency is changing now such that the message she's putting out into the world is, I bring peace and appreciation, not I am excluded. And therefore the world starts responding to her because her energy is shifted. So then she started, you know, getting invited to certain things. In fact, you know, her team just says her. She just comes across so much differently now. And we're starting to really value her opinion. We want to include her because of the way she's showing up. And I remember her nemesis, the guy that, like, was never wanted to deal with her. They now have coffee every other week to catch up, and they find that that's the best way to stay informed. And he said, you know, I didn't think this was possible. Right. But I've never seen someone really shift how they're coming at it, but for the better.

You know, this just resonates on so many levels because I think Back to when you were talking about inner critic, I raised my hand, bobbing my head. When you talked about even this feeling excluded or angry or frustrated from an email, from a meeting, I'm bobbing my head, I'm like, yep, feel that.

Yeah.

Do you know, we talk about Ashish and I, that, you know, happiness is an inner game. Everything's happening inside of us. And until we actually reflect on it, give ourselves space to feel it. And there have been times I've actually told Ashish, I'm like, when I have that moment, that trigger, Ashish, I feel paralyzed. And he's like, breathe. I'm like, I agree. So I've been doing that. But what I love about what you've said, that kind of enhances that is the energy levels. And during lockdown, when I was actually looking into it, I found that, you know, my own, let's say, childhood wounds, which I'd love to touch on here in a moment, you know, that would bring my frequency, my vibrations down into shame, into guilt, really low. And the moments where I was able to catch that and break that cycle, whether it was by playing an upbeat song, whether it was playing an upbeat tune, I noticed that my energy levels would vibrate up and I would actually feel amazing, and I'd go from positivity, let alone to optimism. And suddenly I feel like a different person. So my invitation to our listeners is just, you know, even if you want to pause the podcast and reflect on the story about Deborah and the way that Susan just described it, what is that moment where you feel that trigger? Was it that email, that presentation that didn't go well? That conversation didn't go well? That relationship you have, that didn't go well? Okay, what is that? And play it back. Give yourself that pause. I'm definitely going to do that, Susan. I think that's something I'm going to give a try to. In addition to the breathing, what I'd love to segue into is childhood wounds. Now, I'm not saying I'm that old, but when I read that in your book, I thought to myself, okay, any leader out there who's successful is thinking, okay, hang on. How is it that my childhood wounds from two, maybe three, maybe even four decades ago could actually be causing my pattern today to cause me to behave and treat and react and respond the way I do? I'd love for you to delve into that and share more with our listeners. How do those childhood wounds affect us three, four decades later?

Well, they affect you mentally, physically, emotionally, across all dimensions. The first part of the book, I go into all the research, some groundbreaking books called the Body Keeps the Score, Childhood Disrupted, that looked at our childhood wounds and traumas and how they create physical ailments later in life. And also how they view how we both mental and physical, the way we view the world and depending on how severe those events were, can also shape mental illness, of course. And they call them ACEs, Adverse Childhood Events. And what I say, I use the term wound because certainly there's real trauma, right? Physical, sexual abuse. Those have profound impacts on how we are as leaders. But also we've all had some type of wound, whether it be like you don't get through life without some kind of childhood wound, right? And it's sort of the. What gets formulated is the sort of story we make up about the world and our role in it. And we make that story up to find a way to survive through the emotional pain of it. Right. You know, what happened on the playground, what our parents did to us. And I'm pretty transparent in the book about my own story, which was not a trauma. It was more wound, right. And the wound really was. I had a father who was very volatile with his anger and I didn't know when he would be Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. So the superpower it gave me was this ability to be hyper, almost vigilant, to look and see what, read the signs and follow him very closely. Now that superpower serves me very well as a coach today, right? Because I can really dial in and I can see what's going on beyond what someone's just said, saying that I'm picking up a lot of energy and clues. I hone that skill. But it also left a belief that I'm treated unfairly because I never knew when Mr. Hyde was showing up. And it felt unfair. And so that belief system, which I didn't realize I had until much later, like right till like late 40s, like, oh my God. And I'm someone who's done 20 years of self development work, so it took me that long for me to see the pattern. I'm encouraging people to sort of do the deeper inner work, to look at whatever's bothering you today, get clear on the emotional state and see if you can see where else that shows up to start to understand the belief that you're holding.

Yeah, because they run us, right? These beliefs, these assessments. Adil and I were just, you know, chatting about this. They run us continuously. And the worst part is we don't actually know it, right? We don't know it. You know, Anais Nindit, she said we see the world as we are, not as the world is.

Right.

There's a lot of wisdom in that. But I think observing and putting the camera back towards ourselves. Right. And I love, by the way, the wounds versus trauma. Again, something, you know, that I only discovered that when I was 40 to 43 at actually a retreat that fundamentally changed my trajectory and what I'm doing now, Susan around helping people truly create to be happier and create environments of flourishing. Right. By actually mastering their inner worlds. Because really it is an inner world.

Yeah.

There's nothing out there that you're going to change. But if you want to change things out there, start here. I always say I've had no trauma. And I actually do think the word trauma in today's world gets thrown around a lot.

Yeah.

I think we need to reserve trauma for truly things of the kind that you mentioned that really shape us to a core. And I think using the word wound versus trauma is a powerful way to actually create that distinction. Nonetheless, those actually do shape us. And I'm reminded of, of another talk that I was listening to by teach Nathan where he says, by the way, nobody in the world actually doesn't have a core wound. And think about it. The first act of a child born. Right. The child has been enveloped in this warm amniotic sack.

Yeah.

Everything is dulled. And the first act when you're out, when you're in the world is bright lights, your lungs are filled with fluid and breathing. The first act is an act of survival. And in that moment you recognize. Right. Like even in a state of like, if it wasn't for the others, I won't survive. And so this need to be loved and connected is so, so deep. Right. But as you grow up to a two year old, we've all done it. I've done it in spades. You know, I have a 13 year old. I remember to my own time because I used to have a story. I don't have any childhood traumas, like what are we talking about? But think about it. I mean, I was to a two year old who is literally about to put their finger in an electric socket. The mother or the father saying, don't do that. A huge giant that they like literally is their kind of, you know, caretaker. They know without that they can't survive. That is a wound. You know, you all of a sudden start to recognize the world is not safe. Did this person get upset? I don't want to upset others. So we Pick these up all through our life. So these are wounds. And oftentimes some of them, of them, the core wound can start to shape so many things out there, because that's just the glasses we pick on. So I love your invitation to the listeners is, you know, listen, journal, go back, find some quiet space to see patterns from areas that you're suffering now, where have they originated, what? And keep tracing it back to that moment and actually start the journey there of starting to shift. Because it is an inner journey.

Yes. And I'll bring it sort of full circle from where I started, because in my mind, what was keeping me from being present was this old playlist. And so I say, stay in the present. You do want to stay in the present. But why is it so hard for people? I believe is because they've got this old playlist running that is truly having them not be closer to connected state. Right. A present state. And it's really also why I spend a lot of time with the Enneagram, you know, where if you know anything about really looks at what draws your focus of attention, why are you drawn there, but what's your blind spot behind? And once you know that, you can start to really widen the lens of what you're seeing.

I want to come to the Enneagram in a second here, but I think what you're sharing is, again, it's just striking so many chords, Susan, because I think when I think back to wounds, childhood, I think our listeners may think, hang on a second, you know, what is a wound, as Ashish mentioned, Is that something that's deep or, you know, it scarred me. There are times where even recently, when I actually take a pause. So there's something I'm doing, I'm rewiring, right? So we've got a program called Rewire, and it's all about cultivating self awareness. And I'm actually getting my coaching certification. One of the things they've taught us, and Ashish alluded to it, is assessments and assertions. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is I think that we have a tendency, as soon as something happens that trigger, you know, we immediately use words that don't serve us. Right. So again, going back to Deborah, you know, I feel angry, I feel excluded, I feel frustrated. And back to your point, it's like, hang on a second. Does that serve you? No. Does that song serve you?

Does that. No.

Okay, so how can you reframe and find a tune that actually serves you and puts you in the direction that you want to go in. Right. Because I think that's something we get stuck in and we get paralyzed by those words. And I feel like it's like the only way to break is by cultivating that awareness, really realizing it, as you said, Ashish, journaling it, jotting it down. And you know, we had a conversation with Professor Srikumar Rao last week and it's just something that stuck with me. And it's like, you know, by reflecting, it's your first step towards permanent awakening. And I think it's not a matter about getting stuck on the past like you said. Right. Like getting caught up at the past. It's just simply reflecting on the past as you want to be in the present in order to pave the way forward. And that's maybe where I'd love to understand when it comes to the Enneagram. It was a first for me when I was first looking into it. And I know you've got a bit of a description of it, maybe just in your own words. Yeah, Help our listeners understand, like what is it? And how does that Enneagram help us understand, like what you can develop as a talent, what can you develop as a leader?

So the Enneagram is a model for self development. And that's why I use it in leadership development. It is a model of nine different personality styles or leadership styles. I don't like to use the term personality styles because it feels too all encompassing. So that's why I use the word, because there's only one. You. You're very, very unique. So let's use it in terms of leadership style. Style. All it's measuring is where your focus of attention, what you're motivated by tends to go. And as human beings, we think we're chameleons and can see 360 degrees, but we can't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where we point our focus of attention, which is what we're motivated by, that's what we see. But there's something behind our head we can't see. And that's the blind spot. And so what the Enneagram articulates is where your tendency tends to look, but also what you're not seeing. So it gives you a very clear map of development for where you need to grow from that. And not only where and how you need to grow, but who can best support you in that growth. Because it's also a model of connectivity because there's someone else looking that direction. And so if I keep arguing it's green and you keep Arguing it's yellow. When you really understand the Enneagram, you understand why that person sees it that way. So it builds empathy, it builds. The best teams are. It's about cognitive diversity, right? And the best teams are that. But it's, it's incredibly powerful both for the individual and in a team setting to recognize that, understand that for your own individual growth. And how can the team grow?

Do you know what I love about that is so this is something that I'm cultivating myself is my self awareness. And so through the Rewire program, it's that, that's why what I love about is the assessment, right? It's what story or what is holding you back or what is it that you're hearing or what is that belief or prior experience that is either holding you back or you want to shoot towards. And that's exactly where I feel we have an opportunity as professionals, as leaders to develop that awareness, develop and understand that assessment, to rewire. And it's almost the way you put it, the only way to look forward and move forward is by finding those beliefs, those experiences, those stories that actually serve your purpose. I think we get caught up going back to the inner critic. We get caught up and we get held back. It's almost like quicksand, right? And so I love the Enneagram. I'm actually something I'm going to look into. And I do invite our listeners to understand, hey, what are those assessments that you can look at that either hold you back versus take you forward? You know, Susan, something we shared with you was our nine hardwired for happiness practices. And you know, there's so much that you shared today that just resonates. And I just wanted to ask you, is there one of the particular nine hardwired for happiness practices that you love that you find special, that you integrate in your day, or maybe even it's the opposite. It's like, hang on by seeing that, that's one I'm not so focused on. Maybe I do need to in order to kind of round out myself. We'd love to hear your thoughts and share on that.

I think the beginning of change always has to be the self awareness piece. Right? And so everything I'm talking about is how do you build a greater sense of self awareness? How do you notice that you don't see 360 degrees, right. And you're not built to as a human being, but you can still grow within that. And that's the exciting part. So what would it be like to widen that perspective? What would it be like to take off your green shaded glasses and put on blue shaded glasses and see the world that way. But you have to know that you're actually looking at the world through green shaded glasses. And that's where the self awareness piece it all starts from.

Yeah. So many different ways to build that self awareness. I think Enneagram is a powerful one and unfortunately not many people use it in the context of leadership development, but it is so powerful. You know, it can be one additional and a really powerful tool that says how you show up and how you lead. Right. There are always strengths and then their weaknesses. Use your strengths.

Yes, absolutely. And look, I've worked with all the different assessments discs, Myers Briggs. I find it far deeper, far richer because it's really pointing. It is a model for self development. It's not just, you know, the other ones tell you what you are. Well, there's no like, so what, what do I do with that? Right? There's no application. This. We've built out a whole system of application. We built out how do you give feedback if you're a type 2 consider a helper. What do you need to pay attention to and how you give up feedback? What is it going to be your strength in giving that feedback? What's going to be, how do you delegate? How do you be more influential and persuasive? How do you manage conflict? All the core leadership competencies. We can actually, once we know Enneagram type, help you along your customized path of development versus a one size fits all.

All right, so Susan, as we start to wrap up, I just want to lead us towards a bit of rapid fire. So this is just to help our listeners to get to know you a little bit better. I think my first question I'm hoping is gonna be the easiest one of the lot. But what I'd love to know is when you've gotta turn that frown upside down, what is that song you like to play on your playlist?

Well, my anchor song is Bruno Mars 24 Karat Magic because it's anything but being treated unfairly. It's the party has started and I have arrived. So it is so fun and I can wrap all of the words to it. So I like that.

Love it. The next question I have for you is that comfort food that you love to have on those days when again you're like, that's going to put a smile on my face.

Oh, gosh. Well, it has to be chocolate. It's not the healthiest food, but I mean there's nothing like Dark chocolate. I don't know. I just love it.

What's your favorite brand? What's your favorite bar? Susan?

New house. Because it's a chocolate hazelnut combination. So.

Yeah, I love hazelnut, too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dark chocolate or milk chocolate?

Dark. Definitely dark. Yeah, Dark.

Yep. I was going to say I once made the mistake of trying 95%. That was a big no. No, I stay at 85%. Exactly. What is the activity you love to do when you have time to yourself?

Hike, get out in nature and also be hiking. That is my. That's why I also live in Arizona where 10 minutes outside my door, there's hiking eight months out of the year.

Love it. And the last question, if you had to name your favorite book, and I know you've got a few that you've done yourself, but if you had to name a book that is your go to when you're again looking for that source of wisdom, which author or which book would that be?

I loved the Art of Possibility by. I think it's Ben Zander. It really just sums up how I see the world.

I love it.

Ben Zander, the Art of Possibility. Yeah, I will add that to my reading list. I haven't read that.

Yeah.

Susan, this was such an amazing conversation. It was such a pleasure to have you with us. I know it took us a little while, but I'm so glad we did.

Me too. Thank you.

And I can't wait to see you soon in Scottsdale in a month.

Great. I look forward to it.

And Susan, likewise. I just want to say thank you again. You know, opening my eyes up to the Enneagram, this one of those tools that I've not actually looked at. Again, I invite our listeners to look into that, look into these tools. I think finding ways that you can break those patterns like you mentioned. And I think even if it's just a matter of taking a survey to understand what your patterns are, because sometimes we don't know what it may be. We've got one in the Rewire program. You've got the Enneagram. There are others out there. Just take that first step to break that tune and start to build that playlist that will set you free. So, Susan, lots of love and big hugs. Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you.

Thank you very much.

Bye.

We hope you enjoyed this episode on the Happy Happiness Squad podcast. Make sure to hit subscribe on your chosen platform that you listen to us on. If you enjoyed the tips discussed. Looking to combat stress, burnout or seeking deeper fulfillment or navigating life transitions, then our Rewire program is designed for you. Rewire is your key to unlock your full potential to experience more success. Resilience, satisfaction and creativity make happiness your competitive edge. Check out the show notes and learn more about how you can benefit by rewiring away from fear in between episodes. Follow along on Instagram at my happinesssquad for tons of tips, insights and short videos designed just for you. Until next time.