Part 2: How to Lead Better Through Positive Communication with Julien Mirivel

Communication is really powerful because it's one of the few things we have at our disposal to really overcome our differences. And I think leaders can really, truly benefit from learning to listen a little bit more deeply.

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Hi, dear friends. Welcome to the part two of my conversation with Dr. Julian Mirawell, who is one of the experts in the field of positive communications. In this episode, we picked up from our last conversation and discussed three more disclosing, encouraging, and listening, and how these three can make such a huge difference in unlocking the full potential of our teams and of our individuals. Now, make sure you stay till the end, because Julian and I jointly created a really fun, playful way where you can actually integrate these practices, these behaviors as part of your routine and for those of your teams. So make sure to stay till the end of the episode and let us know how it resonates with you. Welcome back, Julian, for part two of our Happiness Squad podcast on positive communications. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me for a second time. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Well, Julian, I want to pick it up where we were. You know, you were talking. You found these six acts, six foundational behaviors of positive communications that allow us to. To be more resilient, to get more out of our teams. You know, so many benefits you shared the last time around. We covered greetings, asking and complimenting.

That's correct.

We ran out of time. So I want to really pick it up on the other three. And let's start with disclosing.

Sure, no problem. So let's get there. So disclosing, you know, in the model, I kind of argued that disclosing, of course, is an exemplar of positive communication, but its primary function, when it's done well, when it's done authentically and genuinely, has the ability to deepen the relationships that we have with other people. My friend Alex, who is co author of my last book, Positive Communication for Leaders, when we do presentations together, he always says he's kind of a magician by training. So he always says disclosing is the magic wand of communication. And it really is, because if you share a little bit about yourself with Others, then it's one of the few behaviors that often gets reciprocated. Right. I tell you a little bit about me and you tell me a little bit about you, and there goes the magic. You and I are connecting on a little bit of a deeper level. So that's kind of what, essentially what it means. But I've got lots of examples. But I want to see what you're thinking about it as I'm describing it.

Well, I think. No, I would love to get some examples. I think the first immediate question that comes to mind is. Well, the reflection that comes to mind is absolutely. A lot of people want to build psychological safety and trust. Sure. And I think the first step that we can actually take. We can't demand people feel that people trust us.

That's correct.

Or feel psychologically safe. But I think by being vulnerable, we can actually create and give them the permission to. Right. To lower their Johari windows, so to say. And so we can really, you know, see the. See the beautiful human with, you know, all of our fears and needs and whatever else is happening.

That's correct.

The question that comes up for me is how do we know when you're disclosing to not, you know, disclose too much or what's the right. What's the right guidelines for what do you disclose and what do you not disclose and when do you disclose? Right. I'm sure there is so much in there, and I would love to unpack that.

Yeah. And those are always tough questions. You know, I mean, I obviously never called my model the laws of communication, you know, because they're. They're guides for action. They're not laws, they're principles. They're things to think about. You know, last time we talked about some of these other polls. But when I think about this part of the model, I really think about. We do face attention all the time between revealing information, revealing how we feel, revealing what we think, and concealing. So it's really a revealing. Concealing what we call a dialectical tension. And that's never going to go away. You know, in every relationship, that tension will not go away. In every connection, that tension will not go away. So what I'm trying to get people thinking about is that very often we feel an urge to conceal, when, in fact, if we had the courage to move in the opposite direction, which is revealing, then we are so often surprised that in that moment we actually get more deeply connected to this other person. And it's not a surefire proof. Right. It's not like every single Time. So I do think as a person, you have to be aware of when is a good time, when what topic makes sense in this circumstance, you know, is it, am I willing to take this risk? You know? Cause sometimes people will not accept your disclosing as an act of connection. But there are some things as a leader that I think are easy disclosing that probably should be done. Can I give you some examples?

Please.

So, for example, giving your team a little bit of your personal experiences that are happening in your life will help them understand where you're coming from. Like the best example I could think of is a couple years ago, my son got 10 year old son and he was in a pretty tragic kind of accident. He was swimming in a pool and two kids were playing and they started kind of, you know, rough playing on the side of the pool. One kid pushed the other kid into the pool. That kid landed head first into my kid's head and he suffered a really devastating concussion. For months he was not able to be 100%. I had to pick him up in the middle of the day, sometimes twice, so his brain could recover. He's made a great recovery now. But imagine I'm a leader in that period of time and I tell no one what's happening in my life. It'd be incredibly difficult for your team to interpret your behavior, actions, emotions in a positive way because most people are gonna go, he's mad at me. Or he looks upset, you know, and I don't know why. So just the act of telling people, here's what's happening. My son has a concussion. I'm really managing a lot. I just want you to be aware. There's nothing I need. I just want you to be aware of that so that you can interpret what's going on with me, maybe more generously than you might if I didn't. And I think in that act you would find people would resonate very well. It just seems so simple. But so many people would be afraid of revealing that.

Yeah, I love that. Right. And it also, like, I think you don't get. People don't need to be guessing one. I think you leave so much, frankly, you leave so much. Like we sometimes feel that work and life. Right. We don't live in a severance world where work and life are not interconnected.

I like that you said that. Yeah.

I mean it's, it's, that's why there's a show about it. It's, it's not real life.

Yeah.

But when we are in this interconnected we leave so much humanity out of our workplaces. And just by sharing, we create a space for somebody else who might be dealing with something, you know, that's kind of constraining their ability to be fully here. And sometimes just the ability to give grace or give them the flexibility, like, hey, it's okay, you know, you're dealing with something. Go do what you need to do. I know you'll be there for me because when I need it.

That's right.

Can make a difference. Because as a leader, you might be able to, but your staff might feel pressured to choose either or.

That's correct.

Well, you're serving as a leader, what they're doing.

Yeah.

Right. Or you're concealing what you're doing, and then you feel guilty about, oh, my God, what am I doing? What am I not doing? You.

Yeah.

And you're right.

I mean that you also serve as a model.

Right.

And we know from the research that the most important variable for performance in the workplace is the relationship that the employee has with their supervisor. If that relationship is strong, performance is strong, that relationship is weak. Very generally, performance is weak. Right. So think about it this way. Disclosing is the act that's gonna help you the most in creating. If you're willing to share, very likely, then when your employee is also facing something that is difficult or maybe impacting their work, they'll be willing to disclose to you, which then will give you insights and understanding into their experiences and maybe even a little bit of empathy. So I think of that move. There are others that I think are really important like, that we don't talk about enough, like setting expectations. Too many later. Too many conflicts in the workplace occur because people break expectations. But really, it's because leaders early on don't share any of them. Right.

Yeah. We don't explicitly talk about, what do I want from you? What does success look like? We just then are not happy when the person doesn't exactly get there. And many times we won't even still say it. We'll just be, you know, we'll just hold it. We still don't say it.

We still don't say, I'm so glad you're saying that. Yet we still don't even. We're not clear. Sometimes we don't even know. I know when I was first. First starting as a leader in my leadership roles that I really didn't know what my expectations were because I didn't have the experience. But I learned from some of the best leaders and I did have. I would Say several years after I had started in, for example, my dean job, I had a provost who came into the first meeting. She was brand new provost, and started the entire journey by saying, before we go anywhere, I want to share with you my expectations for what I want from this team. And she had made a list. She wrote all of them down on a piece of paper. There was 10 of them. I remember it like it was yesterday. And she essentially spent the first part of that first meeting with all of the leadership team going over every single one of her expectations.

Wow.

And I mean, how many times have you had a boss do that with you?

Yeah.

So in this case, that's what I'm talking about. So that would be a second example.

Yeah.

The third that's easier that you can do is you have to remember that people do not have access to what's in your mind. They do not have access to what's in your heart. They only have access to what you say and do. And I think so many leaders feel lots of actually positive emotions with our colleagues, you know, lots of feelings of gratitude or feelings that people did a great job. And I would say that a key act we focus on in the book is just simply. And I know you're going to really identify with this because I've read your book, but it's the idea of just expressing gratitude to the people around you. And yeah, you can write thank you notes, you can send a quick text, you can send an email to your team to thank them for all of the work that you've been doing that they've been doing. So when you do that, you're communicating to other people. You know what? This is not just about the task. This is about our relationship to you and who we are together. And I value you so, so important.

Being, you know, literally this one thing of being valued by your boss or your company shows up as one of our biggest needs of employees. This was the research when I was at McKinsey. We were doing right. It's really high, it shows up. And it is such simple ways in which we can recognize that we don't do. And I think a lot of has to do with busyness and I think a lot of has to do with even this negativity bias that we always notice what somebody's not doing versus what somebody's doing.

That's correct. Yeah. I would put gratitude just. I think, I think in your book you write about the effects of gratitude on your level of happiness. Right. It's the same thing to me in the World of leadership. It's like, it has to be a habit. It has to be part of you because you'll feel happiness, but then you're creating an environment where other people also feel happy, you know, and that's kind of the job of a leader.

I love that. Three really specific ways in which we can practice disclosing. Right. Number one is share what you're struggling with with your team. Right. Be open about it. Don't live a severance life.

I love that.

Number two you mentioned is be very clear about expectations. Yes. And when they are met or when they're not, friend. And, like, make sure that the team gets it.

That's correct.

And that can be part of the contracting process of what you set up with your team. And number three is tell people what you're thinking and feeling, especially expressing gratitude and recognizing them for what they're showing up and doing for you.

Perfect.

And for your company. Beautiful. I think those are so practical. Let's talk a little bit about encouraging.

Okay. So that's the next part of the model. Right. Number five on the list.

Five, yeah.

So remember, all these behaviors are designed to get people thinking about how they can communicate a little bit more positively in their own lives, at home, at work. Here we're using the case of leadership, but the behaviors really transcend those contexts. So in the model, I argued that encouraging, when it's done well, actually is an act of giving. Right. I wrote in the model that when we encourage, we have the ability to give people support. So I want people thinking that the act of communicating is just as tangible as an act of giving as, say, giving money or giving somebody something. And if you think about it, it's kind of true. Like, we use communication to give affection. We use communication to give love. We use communication when people face hard times, when there's any form of suffering. Our instinctive response is to use communication to give them the support that they need to succeed. So that's really what that piece of the model is about. And realizing that in the workplace, there will always be suffering. Meaning your employees are maybe going through a divorce or they're having a hard time at home, or they're working on a project that's stretching their skills to a level that maybe they're not ready for, or there's a whole new. The company is going through restructuring.

Right.

Or the tariffs are going up and down. You know, so there is always going to be that. And I know you've interviewed Jane Dutton, but I think that's why her work fits really well, in this part of the model, this idea, how do we create a compassionate workplace? You know?

And what does that look like?

And encouragement. There's different forms. We can talk about them, but to me, leaders have to pay attention to at least three. Three kinds of forms that are really essential for creating this little compassionate environment.

Yeah, No, I love that. Communication is an act of giving. It's so true. Right. And as we talked about in the last episode, it's. Through it, we generate new worlds.

That's correct.

New realities.

Yeah.

Right. You know, there's. I love Thich Nhat Hanh's work. And, you know, he says, you know, you can always give. And he always talks about if there's nothing you can give, you can always give a smile. And I think that's great. I think this is the other one. And. And if you can't give a smile because you don't feel like smiling, I think you can still, in that moment, give a kind word.

Absolutely. So, you know, employees, my. My students did a study. I have my students do little mini research projects where I teach classes at the graduate level. And what was really interesting is did a study on leadership, and they found that out of them, out of all of the behaviors, that actually what employees really wanted, as I think you've mentioned, this is to feel like they were valued and cared for. So encouraging is kind of like that. So I do want to separate it. So complimenting is when you say something about the person right now in this present moment, but encouraging is different. Encouraging is a movement from the present to the future. Right. There's a difficult time. So it's a behavior that helps people overcome and move them from who they are today to who they might become tomorrow. That, to me, is what encouraging is all about. Can I give you a quick story that I love from one of my bosses, please?

Yes.

So there's three forms of support that has been well documented in the literature. One of them is called instrumental support. Emotional support is the second one. And then esteem support is the third one. Instrumental support is pretty easy. It's anything you do to give information to other people. And that might include something like being transparent with them about some knowledge that you have about, say, a crisis or a problem or restructuring or, you know, anything you can think of. But another magic way is simply when we give each other advice. So here's the story. So this was years ago. I was having lunch with my boss. At the time, he was chair of the department. And we were going to lunch, which already tells you A whole lot about our relationship. Right. He took me to lunch early in my career, mentoring me and really spending time with me. Spending investing energy and time in who I am as, As a person, as a colleague. So we're having lunch and for years, you know, I was. I'm France, French originally. And so smoking was something I did. I was a pretty heavy smoker, actually. But I never felt like it really belonged to my identity. I always felt like it was like, oh, man. Because I'm very, very active in athletics. I'm very. I was a, you know, I practiced martial arts for many years. I'm like, man, I'm a black belt and I smoke this. What the heck is going on? You know, so this one day we were having lunch and he said, somehow the topic came up. He says, you know, junior, you know, you know what you can do if you really want to quit smoking? And I said, well, no, like, tell me. He said, if you really want to quit smoking, all you have to do is quit one cigarette at a time. And I don't know what it was. Ashish. But maybe two weeks later, I woke up that one day and as many smokers do, they realize, like the first thing they do is they go smoke, right? Well, that one day I didn't. I got up, for some reason, I skipped that cigarette. I got ready, took a shower, got ready, and then I realized, oh my gosh, I just skipped my first cigarette. And then I spend the whole day just skipping the next one and the next one and the next one. And it was excruciating. But I have never smoked since. And it's been. My son is 17 years, so almost 18 years now. I have not had a single cigarette. I've been smoke free. And it's because of that one little conversation, right? So communication is a gift. That's what I'm telling you. It's like he took the time, he listened, and he gave me a piece of advice that has stuck with me. And we know this is happening in the workplace and that leaders can do it.

I'm just thinking about that. I mean, what a gift. I mean, he's probably given you so many of your life's years back.

Absolutely, yeah. It's not just a gift with the advice. It's a gift in my health, it's a gift in my relationships. It's a gift in my. Yeah, you know, my son was not raised in a family with somebody. With somebody smoking. I mean, tremendous impact.

Amazing. So you talked about these three key things, right? Instrumental, emotional and esteem. Talk a little bit about those.

Okay. So instrumentl, as I mentioned, is the. Is an act of communication in which we give people information. It can be as simple as, you know, I mean, I'll just use it like, let's say I have a student who maybe is thinking about going to graduate school. And I'm like, here's a quick email. And I said, I've been thinking about you. I know you're thinking about graduate school. Here's a website you might go explore to learn more about what you could do with this degree. And that's information. And that is a form of instrumental support. It's me providing information that would make sense. Another form, as I mentioned, is giving an advice. And I think often bosses kind of withdraw from this. We don't want to overdo it. We don't want to give people advice every day. Right. But when we study it, we find that the most meaningful conversations take place when people take some time to give another person some advice. So something to think about. Emotional support is anything you do to alleviate the suffering that another person is experiencing. And again, that can take place in many forms. Can be non verbal, like giving somebody a hug if you feel like they really need it. Can be putting your, you know, your hand on their shoulder to show that you're present. Can be as simple as just listening. I gave a talk this week to about 300 people, and the focus was on kind of resilient leadership. And I found this study where they collected diaries of employees in an organization over a period of a year. And then they analyzed them and they found that the best leaders were able to give support. And the example I shared was from a diary where something had happened in the company that kind of, you know, made everybody think, what the heck is going on? And the manager, the next day came and the person said in the diary, you know, my manager came into my office and they sat next to me and they just asked like, how are you doing with all of this? How are you coping with all of this change? And the person just said, it was just felt so good to have somebody just listen and be there and care about me.

Wow.

And that's emotional support. It doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be big. It's not like you need to bring gifts and flowers and presents and stuffed animals. It's just, I'm here, I'm present, I'm listening.

Yeah. Just being able to witness. Right. Be witnessed and have space. Oftentimes people feel they have to hold it all within.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so that's the second form. The third form is a little bit more specific. It's esteemed support, and that's almost like complimenting. It's when we remind people of the strength that they have in spite of those challenges. So, you know, one of my. Actually, one of my graduate students had a good job, and she was let go yesterday, and so she's emailing me, and. And that's part of what I'm trying to do, right? I'm trying to tell her, hey, listen, you are resilient. You have earned this degree. You have all these skills. You have all of, you know, the power. And of course, this is a difficult time. We want to learn from it. And. But at the end of the day, you. You have the strength. You know, you're smart, you're resilient. You will overcome this challenge, and I have no doubt that we're going to overcome it together. So that's esteemed support in the sense that it just tells the other person, again, kind of how I see them, but it's putting it in the framework of this moment where there's suffering taking place.

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I think a big part also of esteem support, as I think about Julian, is letting people see their greatness through your eyes.

Yeah, tell me more about that. Right?

I think people have. I had, you know, the former Chro of Applied Materials, like one of the Fortune 10 companies on our podcast, and even though she was so experienced and she was, you know, like one of the Fortune 10 executive leaders, she talked about feeling not worthy. She feels like an imposter. I mean, there's so many of us who feel we're not good enough, we're just faking it, we'll be found out, or. Or, you know, or feel that if I feel, and I say there's this almost feel that I'm more than. It's Somehow, you know, it's not a good thing to do. Right. So people always play smaller than they really.

They really are.

Yeah, they really are. And I think one of the biggest gifts I think, I feel we can give those we lead and our peers is we show them their greatness, we show them that they are worthy and we give them that. The encouragement around really being able to take it. In fact, I was thinking about this conversation we had this Saturday actually that triggered the whole tariff response thing that we kind of put right. But I was talking to somebody who is a procurement partner at a firm and I was telling them, if I am not part of McKinsey, then who am I?

Right.

And I said, are you kidding yourself? You have 20 years of experience. Yes, the firm plays a board, but you know so much.

That's correct.

And so just being able to kind of reflect to themselves their greatness. Yeah, right. Is can be such a big boost because it can move people towards action.

Yeah, well, and, and as you were talking was, I was really reflecting on like the role of his team support, you know, in overcoming these challenges. And I just read an article today in the New York Times about, you know, the Masters are happening right now and it was a story of all the, some of like the top golfers in the world who already have won the Masters but somehow completely fumbled it, right. Rory McElroy is one of them who basically had a four stroke lead going into the final round of the Masters and like triple bogey, one of the last holes and lost that Masters and that was in 2011 and we're in 2025 and he's still thinking about that moment. You know, Jordan Spieth, I think is the other one. Spirit is the other one. He won it. He was about to win it back to back and sure enough he gets to the final round and then he fumbles it all around. This happens to the top athletes in the world, right. These are people who are the highest of heights in terms of their own profession. And how do we manage that? Well, we have to have people around us who remind us of the strength that we have of what we're capable of doing or we're capable of achieving. No success is ever done alone. There are people around us who give us support and I think that leaders can play that role, you know, because there's going to be failures, there's going to be setbacks. Your, your team is not always going to be performing at the highest level. And so you have to be aware of that and anticipate It. And then be active in rebuilding that confidence, you know, for Rory, you know, we're not thinking 14 years later about this one fumble that he had in an extraordinary career.

Isn't that amazing? And we always remember, we forget all of our successes, but we keep going back to that one. Exactly right. That one shot that we missed.

That's right, the one shot. This is just one shot.

That's encouraging. So let's go to listening.

Okay, listening. You know, in the model, I propose that listening is one act that helps us to transcend our perceived differences. And, you know, as we know in leadership, the higher you go up, the more listening becomes crucial. It's kind of an inversion. It's almost like what's happening to our students. They join a degree where they learn how to speak. But actually, the most important skill is listening, you know, and so what I try to do in the model is say that communication is really powerful because it's one of the few things we have at our disposal to really overcome our differences. And I think leaders can really, truly benefit from learning to listen a little bit more deeply.

And how does one do that?

Okay, that's lots of skills. So some of it is kind of, you know, when we think about philosophically, we, you know, we think, okay, well, I need to be more open. So one element of deep listening is openness, the ability to know that. That you have to be open to new ideas, open to the fact that you might be wrong, open to the fact that you may not know. And that may go back to the other behavior we talked about last time. Right. This idea of asking. We know that deep listening takes what we call. This is a concept from Carl Rogers, famous psychologist, unconditional positive regard. I'm sure you're familiar with this.

Yep.

And what it means is pretty simple. Unconditional positive regard means that the word regard simply means that the way I look at you, positive means warm, you know, and unconditional means without any conditions. So if we can enter relationships, connection with unconditional positive regard, meaning I'm approaching you and us with warmth and without any conditions, doesn't mean I agree with you. It just means I want to explore your experience, your understanding, your perception that changes the way the interaction will go. And I will say, in all of the evidence that we have now from psychology and therapy, it's one of the most powerful things we can have, is to change and transcend our differences. And then, of course, the other thing that really helps is learning how to. Carl Rogers talked a lot about this, and so did the philosopher Martin Buber. But it's kind of removing the masks. You know, we do so much pretending in the roles that we have, and sometimes we pretend we're listening. So removing these masks can help us be a little bit, I think, better listeners. And it's one of the toughest skills, I think, in the model. It seems so simple, but it's so difficult.

And one of the most overrated skills. A lot of people think they're very good listeners, but the result is only 20% are.

Exactly. Exactly.

Right. I think there's such a big gap there. You know, I'm curious, Julian, if you've seen this model, which I've loved. We actually integrated this into our Rewire program because we knew listening was such a critical skill. It was a model by, I think, Otto Sharma and the Youth Theory. And he talked about listening at three levels versus what we typically do, which is we are listening to just, you know, this notion of downloading. Right. We just listen to kind of prove or disprove. And he talked about these three levels. The first level is open mind.

Yeah.

So really listening to understand. The second was open heart.

Yeah.

Listening not just to the words, but to the wind, to the emotions, to what's present with the whole person.

Yeah.

So the second was about open heart and really staying open and being a conduit to that. And then the third that he articulated was open will.

Open will. Interesting.

So listening to what's in the space between us.

Yeah, right.

And sometimes, for example, that can be such a big shift because what we might be thinking is we are having a conflict about something.

Yeah.

And this was an example I'll share with you. You know, I do some work with the US Olympic Committee, and often there's a tension between, you know, athlete pay and resources, you know, towards growing the sport, et cetera, et cetera. And what can sometimes feel like this negotiation between, you know, there are two glasses of water and there are five thirsty people, and what's the right way to distribute it?

Exactly right.

And, you know, should we need more, should you need more, et cetera, et cetera. But when you think about it from an open will point, you're like, yeah, but what we are not talking about is why are there only two glasses of water for five people?

Exactly.

And how is the system making us into adversaries? And how can we together actually grow the pie?

That's right. Love that.

And that's open. Well, so I think I always try when I find myself not, you know, moving towards more action. Pause, especially in difficult places, and try and listen from those three places. Open mind when I'm looking for diverse perspectives. Open heart when I'm looking for the full feelings, needs, fears, and disclosing my own. And open will, just saying, hey, like, is there something which is much bigger that's possible than what? Just, you know, the two places where we are exploring this from.

I love that. Can I add a fourth one that's connected but a little different, please? So I'll do it in, like, 30 seconds. So all I need you to do is. And the audience can do this too. So you take your right hand and you make a really tight fist like this. And then all I want you to do and I want you to feel like this is imagine you going into a conflict or a moment of, like, interaction that's problematic. Or you feel frustrated or mad. Yeah, of course you're not ready to listen. All I want you to do is take this right hand and very slowly open it so the palm faces up. That, to me, is the story of listening. So to your list, I would add open hand. You cannot listen unless your hands are open. You can't accept, like, if your hand is closed, you cannot accept information. You can't do anything but what you can. If you can find the strength to open your hand, then you can listen very differently. And I'm telling you, this has helped me in so many situations. I think it's helped people that I've shared this with for a long time, because I can teach listening in, like, you know, 30 seconds. But it really is practical. Like, if you're in a tough meeting and you maybe you don't feel like you're ready to listen. What I've learned to do now is I take my right hand and I put it underneath the desk and I just tell myself, open your hand. And then I will physically open up my hand. And it changes my demeanor, which is the only thing I can control.

Yes.

I cannot control the other person. I cannot control the entire conflict. But if I change my way of responding, then that's going to change what happens next in this conversation. And so I have found that it's almost liberating. I'm like, ah, okay, just listen a little bit more deeply. Open your hand. And of course, all of the other things that you described are also critical. Love it.

Yeah, I love that. You know, I think it's also. You just reminded me of something, Julian, which is. It's very present for me if I'm in a tense situation or if I feel we are out of time or we are having a conflict. You just reminded me somatically, the way it shows up, that I'm not really listening, even though I'm pretending to be listening. I will have clenched hands.

That's right.

My body was cleansed. Our hands get clenched. So I think it's also a wonderful reminder of a somatic move, one that. How do you know when you're not listening? Right. How do you even know that you're not listening? Well, I think one of the markers can be that you are actually clenched, your hands are clenched, or your body is clenched. And I love that. You know, maybe if you say, okay, I do want to listen, because after this podcast, you're like, wow, I should listen. It's a really big move. I love the. Just open your hand.

That's correct.

Open your hand, breathe, and then see how somatically you can move into the space where the other three moves become possible. So thank you.

Thank you.

That was beautiful.

Love that.

So, you know, Julian, as we kind of go over the last couple of questions here, so I think there is a lot here, right? I think. And one of the key things that I always believe in is, you know, we are drowning in knowledge. We are parched for practice.

That's right.

And the key between knowledge and practice can sometimes be habits, because those are things we just do unconsciously.

That's correct.

Right. So what might be some practical habits through which, you know, leaders can start to integrate this into their life? Because I'm like, six moves, three things within them, maybe even more. That's 18. Oh, my God, I'm not gonna remember this.

That's right.

So what are those three or four things where we can start to build habits that could help?

Well, and it was my intention with the model to really simplify it as much. I mean, I do think you want to keep these six behaviors as part of your little thinking hat, you know, and, yes, it's a lot more richer than that. So I would say, you know, as you develop those skills, you can then get to the other layers of it. But maybe I think. I think six, we can kind of wrap our minds around. You know, it's like an easy compass. And for me, the practicality is this. So, like, if you were to remember, simply greeting. Greeting is simple. It's moving in the direction of other people. That's a general impulse I want you to have. Asking is a general impulse to be curious. Okay. So you don't have to remember all the details we talked about, but just know okay, maybe I can be a little curious. And I think the communication will follow through. Complimenting is really about being gentle. It's remembering that people need to feel loved, cared for, valued. And if you say that, it's going to make a difference. So it's about seizing the opportunities when you have them. Disclosing is, as we talked about, it's like moving towards revealing rather than concealing. So even if you just do that, you're like, okay, this is going to be a lifelong journey. You know, nobody goes from like zero to a hundred in one day, but maybe we can increase that ability to reveal ourselves a little bit more and then see what happens. Like, this is kind of a. I think the model is designed to get you to reflect, to get each person to reflect about their own communication and discover who they are in that process. Encouraging. You know, it's just to remember that you can be an. You can use communication as an act of giving and then listening for. Forget all the skills. I mean, I love our conversation about all these things. Just open your hand. That's it. Open your hand and you're right. That's already a lot. Even though it seems so simple.

Right.

But to me, you could choose any of them and you're going to see growth. So maybe for a while you just focus on greeting and you're going to notice very quickly that it's not as easy as it. As it seems. You know, making contact with new people, creating genuine relationships, checking in on your team and see how they're each doing. Making that a habit on a Monday, just work on that for a while. This idea of moving the direction of people, you're going to find that, that, that could be a lifelong journey, too.

I love that. You know, we have this one practice the, the nine sunflower petals. You know, one of the things we created was like, how do you remind yourself of them? So we said every morning, what if you set an intention and you choose a word? Yeah, I'm going to be grateful today, or I'm going to be mindful today, or I'm going to be present. I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be purposeful today. I really like this. I wonder, you know, to our listeners, friends, imagine if you put these six behaviors and every day, if you want to make it a fun, write it maybe on six cards or six different colors and just go pick one. Pick one from a bowl every morning, or even when you show up, you open your laptop, have a random pick, pick one and just remind yourself to do that, I'm going to tie this with something else that there is. Will Bowen is his whole life. He's dedicated his life to teach people how to not complain. So just this idea that came literally, his whole thing is don't complain. And he created these little. The rubber things that you have around your omelets, the bracelets. And he's like, just have one of those. And every time you complain, you have to pick one out and put it onto the next one.

Okay, I love that.

And then when you complain again, you pick it. You know what I mean? And so it reminds you. And you want to see, how long can I go without having to go do that? But I wonder. The analogy of this could be. Imagine if you took six bracelets of six different colors, and you write those six words, you know, moving towards. So like, moving towards curiosity or gentleness or revealing, giving an opening. And you had six different colors. And every day you chose one of those rubber bracelets to put on your arm to remind yourself to do that. And every time that you do that move, you actually somatically take that and put it on another hand.

I love it.

Notice how many times, because only when we practice, we become it.

That's correct.

And maybe over time, these become embedded in your life, but meanwhile, you can have fun with it.

I really love that. And that really is at the heart of the model, too. We didn't talk a lot about it, but at the heart of the model, I've got the words inspire and influence. But really what I'm trying to get out there is that the only way we create change is if we start to model it. And I'm sure you know the story of Mahatma Gandhi, of the mom who comes to him and says, can you please help me? My son is eating too much sugar and he needs to stop eating sugar. It's just bad for him. So he tells the mom, she says, why don't you come see me in a week? So a week later, the mom comes back and she says, I've come back for your help. Please help me. My son is eating sugar. And Gandhi goes to the child, and he says, stop eating sugar. And the mom just like, why did you make me wait a week for this? And he says, well, because a week ago I was eating sugar. So, oh, my God, I love that, you know? Yeah, we can talk about positive communication all day long, and it feels good, but at the end of the day, we have to do it. And so I'm going to try to see if I can come up with some bracelets that, that we could each wear.

Including myself, I think this is. I think I'm definitely going to definitely share your work with so many. I think we're going to create some bracelets and I think it's something that you buy for your team. You just play together and you can notice what somebody is. Actually. There's so much that you can do with it. I think play is so missing in our lives. Positive communications is so missing in our lives. I think if we can integrate them into workplaces, I think we can create flourishing. We can help people and teams really operate at their fullest potential. So, Julian, thank you. These two hours have been so generative for me. They're such a gift for me and I'm sure it'll be for our listeners.

Thank you so much for having me, Ashish. It's been a really great pleasure to enjoy these conversations and I feel the same way. I feel like I've learned a lot and I'm so glad that we finally got connected.

Thank you, my friend. Be well.

Thank you. You too.

That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love and meaning.

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