People First, Profit Follows: Building a Thriving, Human-Centered Workplace with David Hughes

Welcome to the Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I'm Ashish Kothari, your host, and each week we'll dive deep with flourishing experts, change makers and executives to share best practices that can help you unlock higher performance through science based interventions. Let's step together into the edge of what's possible and live, work and lead with more joy, health, love and meaning. David, it is so lovely to have you with us on the Happiness Squad podcast. Thank you for joining us today.

Yeah, I'm excited to be here today and have a great conversation.

You know, David, I love the story of bcar. When I met you four weeks ago, we were at a conscious capitalism meeting in Denver, right. As part of the Colorado chapter that we were kicking off. And I just loved hearing the story. And I'm going to read something from your mission statement, your first paragraph of the mission statement that will capture for our audience why this is such a great conversation. There is so much that we can learn from what you are creating here. So your first paragraph says, believing that true and honest relationships are the key to happiness and success, BCR Engineering will strive towards the development of that kind of relationship with its clients and employees. And I find that so inspirational. Right. That's your first background. That's not somewhere buried on the careers page on your mission statement. That's what you lead with. So tell us a little bit about that story and about that ethos that permeates bcer.

Yeah, and there's a couple things behind it. The first thing is the relationships. And yes, we're an engineering company and, you know, we, we develop technical documents and all that sort of thing, but it's all about relationships. And the other part of that, it's with our clients and employees, not just our clients. We're not telling our employees, hey, do everything you can do for that client. You know, obviously that's a little bit a part of it, but you have to balance that out with, are we doing right for our employees? And so that foundation really came from the founders of the companies, the original BCE and R, and they all came from a different firm many, many years ago. And they wanted to start a firm that, yes, focused on its clients, but more importantly, focused on its employees. And they knew that success comes when your employees are doing well, they're thriving, they're happy, and those relationships with clients will then be deeper. So that's sort of the backstory with it. And that's, that's really what has driven us over the past 30 plus years now as a company.

Yeah. You know, and it's interesting. There's so many companies that talk about customer centricity and customers, or they talk about shareholder primacy. Shareholders, because they gave us the money. It's all about the investors or it's all about the customers. But there are not a lot of companies that talk about people first. And yet the irony of it is just so always, you know, it blows my mind. I'm like, unlike an individual, a business is an entity made up of individuals. If you want to be customer centric, who is customer centric? Your people are. And so why not always start with people and why not actually start with people? Because it's the right thing to do, not because it's a means to an end that you are pursuing.

Well, and it's not only just the right thing to do from a business perspective, and that's what we're trying to talk about here. It's the right thing to do as a human, Right?

Absolutely.

I mean, let's start at the ground level there. It's just the right thing to do as a civilization, as a culture, as a society, as a human.

Yeah. And, you know, and yet we are so far away from that. Right. I was looking at the Oxford research that they did with indeed Yana Manuel, and you know, we find only 20% of people are thriving at work. Only 15% of people find meaning, especially in the front line, in an activity that they spend majority of their waking adult hours doing. 60% experience stress daily, 22% are burnt out. You know, we are creating workplaces where employees don't come first, maybe they come last. And so I think in that, you know, bcar, BCR really stands out. And I want to kind of dig into different elements of it, David, that allow you all to create that. Right. Small acts, small little pieces of ways in which you make it real. So relationships, you say, is always at the heart, Right. It's the core value. Can you share a story of how relationships, relationships and this principle of true and honest relationships show up every day at bcer it's not just some, you know, written on the wall, but it's what's practiced every day.

Yeah, I mean, there's obviously tons and tons of stories. One that I can think of in my history on the client side of things is, so we are in the design business and we, we design all the systems in a, in a building. So we work closely with architects and general contractors. And I can remember a few years ago I had a project that was design built. So my client was a, an electrical subcontractor. And we had a great relationship with this. I, I knew the, the, the family that owned the company was. It's, it's a small company for many years. I knew the dad and then the, the sons later, and, and we were doing a project together. And there's always challenges out there on, on any of these projects, these construction projects, and on the design side. And we were in the design phase of the project, and we were spending a lot of time designing this project. And I let my client know the electrical subcontractor. I said, hey, you know, we're spending a lot of time on this project. You know, we've had to redo things. The owners requested to do things. And, and he said, oh, well, let me, let me pay you for that. And I said, well, before you do that, let's wait to see how you do on the project, because we're in this as a team. And let's wait till we get to the end of construction and see how you're doing. You say, okay, whatever. And so we finished our design, they built the project. And many months later, after the project was built, he called me up and said, hey, you remember that project? And I said, oh, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it wasn't at the time, front of my mind, but, but he said, remember that project? He said, well, we ended up doing okay on the project. Yes, it was challenging, but we did okay. And I want to make sure you guys are whole on the project. And so he, he wrote us a check to, to make us whole on the project. And, you know, I, I didn't. I said it to him once many months ago or many months before, and he remembered that. And it's those type of relationships that, that you want to build out there in your industry. You know, you're not working in a silo as a company. You're not working in silos within your company. We're working as an industry. And a lot of times that includes everybody that's working on a project together. And building those type of relationships makes it a lot easier getting through the projects that we have to do.

You know what I love about that story, David, is a couple of things. There'll be a lot of people who would basically say, hey, it's X dollars. You need to pay me because it's taking me more. Right? So they take a very much of a transactional approach. There is also others who would basically just say, hey, it is what it is. I'm not Even going to bring it up. I'm just going to absorb the cost. And what I really loved about what you did was actually the middle. Right. Which you said, look, here's the cost. I'm sharing it with you. And it's a really, you know, it allows you to take a relationship to a real transformational place. Because what you're saying is, here's the cost. But I recognize that we are in this together, and I don't want to just hold it on you. If we collectively win, I know you will do right by me. And all of a sudden, if you had absorbed everything and not told him, I think your relationship probably would have stayed the same. If you just went out and gave him a bill, it probably would have been worse. But I think in the approach that you took, you actually elevated the quality of the relationship, because that trust, that partnership, that is earned, and it's earned by actually transparency, but also how we. How we show up in the conversation we have.

And that's what we mean by true and honest relationships. True and honest relationships aren't ones that you sit passively by and sit back and you nod your head like, yeah, I trust you. You know, no, it's having what can be difficult conversations. But if you really trust, if there's trust in that relationship, those difficult conversations are easier. And you can have those conversations. And that's where the true and honest relationship comes in, whether it's with a client or an employee, it allows you to have those conversations a little bit easier. They're never, never completely easy, but it's a little bit easier.

Yeah. Share a story with me, David, around the same principle in the context of.

Employees, of true and honest relationships.

Yeah. Like, how have. You know, how just. I mean, you shared a story with me a couple of weeks ago, which I was so touching. But, you know, either that story or another story, I mean, this is at the heart of what makes you all special, is your people.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I know it might sound like a little bit like bragging, and I know you're very humble, but I think these. These examples today of putting employees first are so few and far in between.

Yeah. You know, and again, it's not easy sometimes because they are difficult conversations. You know, one that I can think of is there was many years ago, we were in a different office, we were doing a remodel project, and I was getting a little bit frustrated with it. Right. We all have our frustrations, and this is coming out as true and honest relationships between all of us. And I had some of our employees come to me and. Well, actually, they didn't even come to me. They just went and worked. They helped the vendor. When I said, you know what, guys? They're messing this up. Just leave them be. And they're looking at this person like, no, we're going to help them. And they went and helped, and I was really proud of them. And I said, you know what? And these were people that I had really long, deep relationships with. And I said, thank you so much for doing that. And I told them, I said, anytime you see me acting in a way that is really against what we believe, call me out on it, which is what they did. I said, don't be afraid to do that. And, you know, you need to, again, back to true and honest relationships. And every relationship is two ways or many ways, and you need to allow people to feel safe in doing something like that. And they took a chance. You know, here's their quote, unquote boss saying, no, don't do this. And they're like, we're doing this because we're going to do what's right, because that's what we're about. And, and I, I reflected on that, and I, I really appreciate it when, when I calmed down a little bit, I appreciated that. And, and, and I'll. I'll tell people. And I told them, I said, just if you see me acting in a way that's not true to our values, call me out on it. We need to do that.

You know, obligation to dissent was one of the core values at McKinsey. It didn't matter who was the boss, the youngest person on the team, right, the analyst. You know, we said, you know, you have an obligation. If you feel what we're doing is different than what's right for the client or rights for the team or et cetera, like, you need to speak up. And I think that's an example of a lived value that you just highlighted where, you know, often people feel leaders need to hold people accountable. But what you're doing is distributed leadership where you're saying, no, we all need to each other accountable. In fact, if we do that, I don't need to hold anybody accountable myself. Right, because it's already happening and you can't be at every place. So I think it's a really beautiful way in which, you know, that that story embodies and exemplifies a core way, right. That that set you all apart. So, look, I mean, it's a very different leadership style, David. Right. It's not a leadership style that we all. I know I wasn't that kind of a leader when I was in my 20s and 30s. And so I want to go there next and I want to talk a little bit about how your leadership style has changed over years. What are some lessons that you have learned that today are helping you create a really human centered workplace. Right. And even amplifying what you, what the founding mission and kind of the structure of it was.

Yeah. And I'd have to say, you know, that that founding mission, it attracted me and really the, the roots of, of my leadership philosophy started when I was a kid and my dad had his own business and he told me, you know, I was probably 13, 14 years old when I was, you know, sort of working with, with him in his business. And, and he told me the most important thing is, is looking after the employees. And so that's really the, the foundation of, of my thought of it. And then when I. And they had this mission statement that basically said the same thing and it was matched very well with my personal philosophy, I think that's just something I've had my whole life of, you know, paying attention to people. And you know, yes, I went to business school, I went to engineering school, I went to business school. And you learned about income statements and balance sheets and you learned all this stuff, financial statement analysis and how to maximize profits and all this stuff. But I come from a background of you care about people and you want them to thrive. I would say that foundationally that really started with my father and the business he was running back when I was a teenager.

At pcer, you highlight that you're a fun, flexible and caring company. Right. Rather than just a large one. So you're consciously choosing. There's a choice there. I want to talk a little bit about how. What are some practices that help you prioritize your people over just growth? Because I know the kind of, you know, when you have that kind of a culture, you know, growth can come easy, but growth content comes at the cost of a lot of other things. So what are some practices that help you really build that people centric culture at bcr? What are some choices every day that you make?

Yeah, there's, there's really a lot. And you know, the first thing that comes to mind are the activities that we do. You know, we do monthly birthday parties, we do holiday parties, we do, you know, Halloween costumes and chili cook offs. And we, we do a lot of activities to get people together and to socialize and to, to. To really Build those bonds on that, on that social level. But it's more than that. You know, it's not like, hey, let's just have a party and we'll all be happy together, that sort of thing. It's more than that. When you peel back the onion a little bit more, you know, a few years ago, we went away from performance reviews and we do what we now call developmental check ins. And the idea behind a developmental check in is you're checking in more frequently. And they may not be as long, and it may not be as structured, but you're checking in more frequently. Especially in this day and age, you know, since the pandemic and our company is mostly remote, you have to be very deliberate about reaching out to people and checking in at all levels. And so we have been very deliberate on that part of reaching out to employees. The individual person who, yes, they may be at a company function and company activity, but you don't know how they're really doing there. But when you check in with them one on one and you're not forgetting people, that's how you pay attention and make sure people are thriving. Because you say, yeah, let's be a fun company. Well, what does that mean? Fun is different definition for everybody, but in my head, it's not just fun, but are they thriving? Are they doing well?

And how do you measure that, David? How do you know that they are thriving?

There's no concrete measurement. The developmental check in helps us with that. But as a person, you get to know that other person and you just, you can see, you know, when somebody's stressed. You know, you said we spend a lot of time within our life at work. You know, we spend a third of our day at the office or at work. There's the other 2/3. You don't know what happens with that person. And some people are, are more open than others. And so in just knowing the person, you get a sense of where they're at, you know, when they're off and maybe you can have a conversation with them and they want to have a conversation. Other people may not. But it's not, you know, it's not just a survey that says, how are you doing? Are you happy? You get 80% of our employees are happy. You know, we, we've done those surveys, the Great Place to Work surveys, the best workplaces and, and good data out of that. But that, that's not looking at the individual person. And so again, I'll go back to being very deliberate about being connected with those individual people.

Talk to me a little bit about. You all are about. Remind me again, how big are you in number of people?

About 75 people right now.

About 75 people. So talk to me a little bit about how the development check in process works because people understand performance review. I love it. Right. This notion that rather than once a year I'm going to tell you how you did and then you're going to get some input and it's going to determine whether what your salary increase, et cetera is. You're moving away from that as continuous. You know, we're going to do it more frequently. We're going to. It's really focused on your development. It's not, it's not a performance conversation, it's a development conversation. So there is growth there. But talk to me a little bit about how, how that actually works. So like, you know, is there a manager associated with every person? Like what does that whole process look like and how does that then go into also, you know, your annual, you know, I'm sure you have compensation processes, et cetera that run annually. Yeah, walk me through a little bit of how that works.

Yeah, so the developmental check in, in this day and age, there's an app for that. So we, we have, we have actually built an app and it's got multiple pages and multiple subjects that you can talk about. Some may be, we have a page on technical information. You know, how are you doing technically? Are you advancing? Blah, blah, blah, blah. We have another page about the values that we have. You know, we have leadership pillars that we, we, we, we measure people on. You know, what I tell people is like, hey, this isn't something that, hey, you get, you got to get fives. You know, the top score on all these, these values, these are things to look at and reflect upon. Where can I, where can I grow? Where can I do better? Whether that's humility or courage or something like that. And so there's, there's multiple topics to talk about. And the idea is that the manager or the department director, the team leader would, would be going through just a single part or have a conversation about a single part each each month. And, and then over the year you're covering all the topics and, and so as you said, it's really intended to help guide people on their growth trajectory of where they want to go and, and how do they want to thrive within the company.

And so do these happen once a quarter or every month or like how does, how does that or is really up to the manager.

It's up to the manager, the minimum is once a quarter, but I know a lot of them will do it once a month. And I think, you know, the increased frequency, the better it's going to be.

And how does that. And how does that process then tie into your annual processes into like salary.

Adjustments and things like that?

Salary adjustments, promotions, etc.

It really helps that manager get that feedback continuously as opposed to, here's the last feedback I just got, and that's front of mind. It sort of builds continuously. That's why I think if you do it once a month, it's a lot better. And then when we're going through the salary adjustments, we'll talk to the managers and get that feedback and it all just plays in.

I see. So they're actually getting a whole view rather than just my current, like, how am I feeling about my interaction with this person now? And then you factor that in as a smaller group to then decide what the next year is going to look like, etc.

It's really amazing. I mean, this sounds like common sense, but we know it doesn't happen in every business. But when you get to build a more broad view of people, more holistic view of people.

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It's just incredible what you can see and what really shines. Yeah, yeah.

I think what was also great about what you were just highlighting, David, that stands out for me is, you know, there were a couple of things that you said. I think the first one is it's not just technically how you're doing, it's holistic in terms of development, leadership, et cetera. I think the second is you mentioned, like, listen, we know about what's happening to somebody, you know, or how we see them at work, but we don't see the two thirds of their lives. And so continuously engaging in a conversation where we actually show people that we value you and we care about you as a human, not just as a worker, is also, over time, creating space for them to open up more. And if I am struggling, be able to share that. Right. And be able to. To get the support. Because in the end, we are kind of, you know, we are one work. You know, we are one family, we're working together, we bring. I always Use this language. We don't live in a severance world. That's why there's a TV show for that. If that was every day, then, then that would be the reality. But somehow we treat the world like that. Right. Like, I'm not interested what's happening on your home front, but they're carrying it with them. And so through this process, what you're also doing is implicitly building trust because you're saying that you matter. We're going to check in continuously and we're not going to let things fester and we're not going to let you struggle alone.

Yeah, yeah.

So all of these things are great. When the company is doing well, the world is doing well. Right. When there is a lot, it's much easier to go do this. Tell me a little bit. Every company faces tough times, right? We do economic downturns, client pressures. Sometimes clients go away. There are internal conflicts. Can you tell me a story, David, about a time when there was a challenge you all faced and what are some actions that you did in your people first culture that helped you navigate it better than otherwise you would have been able to?

Yeah, there's really two that come to mind. I mean, we all went through the pandemic, right. That's the first one that comes to mind. And within a few days everybody was sent home. And you know, you wonder like, what's gonna happen now? And I think fortunately, because of our culture, we adjusted pretty darn well. And you know, and I think we've talked about this before. Sheesh. That it doesn't matter if people are in the office or out of the office, to have those relationships, you have to be deliberate again. Right. And that just reemphasize, you know, with, with specifically our department directors. Like you need to check in with everybody all the time. You know, it almost became their full time job of just checking in with everybody. Of course they had other responsibilities or working on projects and what have you. But the, the, the pandemic forced us to do what was right as far as checking in with people on a deliberate level. And another one that, that, you know, maybe not everybody has gone through, but this happened years before. The pandemic is we had a group of people that, that left the company at one time to start their own company. And there was a lot of work that they left behind that we had to pick up with less staff. And it was tough. People had to work a lot of hours. You know, you can't just staff up in a day or a couple weeks. You Know, it takes time to bring people on board, and a lot of people stepped up to make sure that work got done. And what I find is, you've probably heard this before, that when these type of crisis crises happen, people come together in ways you didn't think they would. And sometimes you see people shining in ways you never thought they would. You see some sort of leadership qualities come out that you're like, wow, I didn't expect that out of that person. And so when these crises happen, there's always opportunity for us to shine and grow. What you have to remember, though, is, again, back to those relationships, and you have to be comfortable, and there has to be enough trust that you can have those difficult conversations to move through those things. And when you build that culture day in, day out, it's a lot easier when the crisis happens.

I see beautiful stories, right. Like, of people coming together, but you have to. You have to, you know, this notion of dig the well way before you need it.

Mm.

Right. Like, it's. It's not in the moment that some of these. Some of these things happen. And I love this notion of, like, you know, people shine, people do things that we didn't expect them to do, like, you know, heroes emerge. So to that, I want to have, you know, if you have a story or two of an employee, you know, who has really thrived at bcer, not just professionally, but personally, how they've grown in their time with the company. I would love to hear one of those stories.

Yeah, there's probably about 300 of those stories.

Right, Exactly.

From all the employees that we've had over the many, many years. Let me think of a very specific one. You know, I can go back to somebody who has been here for a very, very long time and really started out in an administrative position and not a degree in engineer, not an engineer at all. Not a designer, but an administrator. And she has come. She's one of our longest tenured employees and is now one of the owners of the company.

Wow.

And really has been foundational in building the culture that we have. You know, when you see somebody like that over the long term, really thrive at a company that, you know, isn't really. Isn't an engineer, isn't a main driver of the work that we do, but builds the company where people can thrive to do the work that we do, you know, that's amazing. And we've got a lot of stories like that. We had another gentleman, he's now retired, and I worked with him at another engineering company, and that Other engineering company had a very different culture in that if you weren't an engineer, you weren't really looked at in a, I mean not a negative way, but it's just like, you know, you're just not worthy. Right. It's the engineers that make this company. And he came over here and he really thrived and moved up the ranks, became the department director, became an owner of the company and, and just really thrived in a way that he would not have thrived in at engineering company. So I think one of the things when, when I, when I first came to BCR or when I was looking to come to bcr, I talked to somebody I knew that worked here and I said, what's the biggest difference at bcr? And they told me the biggest difference is they will allow you to thrive if you want to step out and grow on your own. And a lot of companies don't do that. A lot of companies will bring you in and they want to put you in a box and say here, stay in that box. But you have to have some courage, you have to have some independence and a little bit of motivation to do that. But the company allows you to thrive if you want to thrive, which is a lot of fun. And I've seen people go through that.

You know, it's this, this team came up earlier today. I was talking to the chief people officer, Jeff Schmidt at Zebra Technologies. Four and a half billion dollars. They are of course a highly producted engineering company as well. And he talked about this thing as well, right? Like this notion of companies that put people first, they don't put them in a box. There's an element of you matter and hence we want to help you grow, we want to help you grow in ways that you want to grow, we want to help you develop in ways you want to develop. And professionally, personally, this notion of inclusiveness which also you talked about doesn't matter if you're an engineer or you're not an engineer, right? Like your worthiness is not tied to the degree, is not tied to the title, it's not tied to the color of your skin. It's not tied to, it's really recognizing human dignity and at the same time making them feel like you're part of one, you belong, but also respecting the uniqueness that makes them unique makes them, them.

Absolutely. You know, we talk about BCR and I got this from, from my friends over at Enryhythm. We call it the thrive triangle, where you have your role, your genius and your well being and you have to be doing well on all those well being, being physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. Role is your role that you have. You're, you're an engineer, you're an accountant, you're whatever your genius, that's that quality that you have that is special that other people may not have. And you have to allow that genius to grow and to influence the role that you move into the roles that you occupy. A lot of times we just want to put somebody in a role and ignore their genius. And you're not going to have people thriving if you do that. But when you cultivate that genius and you make sure their well being, physical, emotionally, spiritually is doing well, then you can put them in any role you want and they're gonna thrive.

Yeah. How do you help people find their genius?

We ask them, we ask them and some people, it comes out and I can think of another employee that was, you know, do technical specifications, editing, that sort of thing. And her genius was more of building the culture of our company and, and also the photography of, of the, of all our projects. And she has really thrived in that role. We've had engineers that have moved out of engineering and gone into business development because they are truly people, people, people people persons, people persons. You know, they love going out and meeting with people. And it's like you have to recognize that especially when somebody's going through a career. A lot of times you go through a career, at least in our industry and you're an engineer and then you become a project manager and then you become, you know, whatever after that. And some people don't do well transitioning from a technical design engineer to a, to a project manager. And you have to recognize where people's strengths are and where their genius is as they're, as they're going through their career.

I love that, you know, you asked them, you know, one other thing that I might, something that I'm a huge fan of. So I collaborated very closely with the center for Positive Organizations at Michigan, Ross and David. They have a powerful tool that I've used sometimes with clients in client teams. And it's called the Reflected Best Self exercise. And it can be such a powerful intervention where, you know, you ask 8, 10, 12 people, personal, professional to tell them stories when you were at your best. And so you get back this collection of a mirror of how you're showing up. And you know, sometimes we know what we are good at, but definitely the impression we leave on others. And when we hear back, it has such a powerful, powerful measure. We did that with one of my clients, you know, at Danone, a team at Danone. And I can't tell you the positive energy that it created, but also help people. Oh my God. I didn't realize I was. They're like, yeah, man, you're like really, really good at it. So it's a very powerful tool. I would invite you to kind of look into that. I'm happy to share some of that with you. But implicit in this triangle and the story that you shared also what struck me is, you know, all thriving cultures have movement. People learn and grow. They can change, you know, so it keeps the freshness of the experience. They're continuously learning. They know that they can grow up, they can grow sideways. And that seems to be a core element of the culture that you're describing too, where again, those transitions are not just allowed, but they are celebrated.

Yeah. And you talk about growing sideways. There are some people, believe it or not, this may be a news flash for you. Believe it or not, there are some people that don't like going to work. Right. And it's not like they don't like going to work. They just may not be rah rah about it. And so you have to recognize that there are some people that want to come to work, do their job and then go home. And that's okay. That's okay. And then you kept talking about either growing sideways or growing up. You're going to have people that grow down or shrink or whatever for whatever reason that something happens in their life. What do you do with them? And you know, if you can care for them and help them through their struggles when they're having that, they may turn into the most productive employee later on or whatever. They may move on. You know, you may come to that point too. But when you care about people when they're going through their struggles, that really builds the foundation even more of a good culture.

Yeah, I love it. So like, again, this notion of kind of respecting the individuality and also growth, you know, it also is helping me, David, as you, as I take that in expand the definition of growth. Growth is not just what you grow professionally because that's how we think about work. But maybe, you know, there is something going on and I'm going to actually grow more as, as a son or as a daughter because my parents need more help right now. So I can't do more at work. And maybe I choose to even go from a manager to an individual contributor and even a part time role because I want to grow right now more in another dimension. And that's okay. It might look like shrinking at work, but, you know, we live full lives.

Yes, exactly right.

And being able to respect that need, being able to respect where they're coming from, I think becomes an integral part of what makes a company great.

Yes.

So, David, keeping an eye on the clock. I just want to. I want to end with any advice that you would have for leaders. I think you are a very, you know, unfortunately, I have to say this. Companies like yours are not the norm. Companies like yours are what Kim Cameron and Jane Dutton would call positively deviant companies. You're creating cultures that are positively deviant. They drive much higher performance, but they do things that are outside of the norm. So what advice would you have for other leaders to inspire them to also be positively deviant? Step away from the norm of treating people just as resources, treating people that need to be managed and putting profits over people. What advice would you have to reverse the script?

There's really so much. The first thing is you have to be true to yourself. You have to know what you want. And, you know, you can't say, yeah, I want a fun, loving, good culture and then be, you know, really pressing hard of some squeezing every dollar out of the company. You know, you have to. And I'm not saying that it's one or the other because you can be a strong company financially and grow, but you have to know what your priorities are and you have to have that lens of, of, of, you know, why am I doing this? And when you are very clear on your values, on your priorities as a person and as a company, that's the lens you look at things and the profit it comes. You know, that's, that, that's sort of the output. You know, it's like, that's great. But you have to be true to your values as a person and as a company and stick with them. The, the other bit of advice is open up your mind by going out and absorbing being a sponge and learning as much as you can and seeing other views. One of the biggest benefits I've had over the last decade and a half of my career is I've been involved with groups outside of my business and industry. That has allowed me to understand how other businesses operate and be exposed to how other business leaders deal with tough times and things like that. So really just expanding your horizons and being very open minded.

Well, David, this was a joy. Thank you for being really a lighthouse for flourishing. You know, I always say, if you want to reach the land of profit, follow the road of flourishing. I built on that from one of the one of the researchers who talks about following the road of purpose to reach the land of profit, Alex Edmonds. But I think a more holistic statement would be if you want to reach the land of profit, follow the road of flourishing, invest in your people first. Because there is no business today that is not an outcome of the people who work in it. And even if you might have stumbled into a great technology and now you're just using people, you're going to die because it will not innovate. The innovation on it will come from people. So thank you for being an example of a company that really puts their people first. I appreciate your leadership and what you're doing in the world.

Thank you. Yeah, this was a great conversation. I really enjoyed.

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