Practicing Deliberate Calm with Jacqui Brassey

Welcome to the Happiness Squad Podcast. Your weekly dose of practical tips and inspiration to help you operate at your fullest potential, integrating the science of flourishing into how you live, work and lead. I'm your host Ashish Kothari, the founder and CEO of Happiness Squad and author of the best selling book Hardwired for Happiness. I will be your personal guide on your journey to explore the many facets of happiness, wisdom, well being and flourishing, from personal growth to building more positive environments at work. In each episode we will share powerful insight, tips and stories from our guests who are leading experts, company executives and flourishing solution providers that you can implement right away to make happiness your competitive edge. Whether you're looking to overcome life's challenges, to go from good to great, or to enhance your team's performance through flourishing, this podcast is the place for you to find more joy, health, love and meaning in everything you do. Join us every week as we rewire for happiness together. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Happiness Squad, your go to place for embracing the art and science of flourishing.

Ashish.

I'm your host Ashish Kothari and today I'm truly honored to welcome a very dear friend and special guest, Jackie Brassi to the show. We are jointly going to be exploring insights from her bestselling book Deliberate Calm. In a world that's constantly throwing us curveballs, learning how to maintain calm deliberately is more crucial than ever for leaders and individuals alike. Now, Jackie is one of the deepest experts in the field of health and well being and is one of the co leaders of the McKinsey Health Institute. She also serves as an Advisory Council member of the World well Being Movement. She's an Advisory Board member of well Being at Work and she also serves on the Steering committee at Workforces Initiative at the World Economic Forum. With this rich background spanning approximately 25 years across international business and academia, she brings a wealth of knowledge to our conversation. Our conversation was filled with with several practical tips that you can start to implement right away, including the importance of practicing deliberate calm and how to consciously shift from protection to learning mindsets 2 how you can master dual awareness, a key concept and its relation to personal adaptability and 3 the role of purpose and psychological safety in practicing deliberate calm as a team. Stay till the end to hear some practical and personal practices from Jackie that you can adopt to be deliberately calm and foster a resilient, adaptive approach to the complexities of life. So nice to be with you, Jackie. Seems like old times. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Ashis it's wonderful to be here.

You know, I'm going to just share with people. You truly are today practicing deliberate calm. I got a message from Jackie yesterday while I was on a flight. It was a phone call and a text message. It was a frantic message saying, my husband's in the U.S. i've got sick kids. I'm not sure I can do the podcast. And then literally, you know, sometimes I always say, friends, time is the biggest cure. By the time I landed, Jackie had found deliberate calm or said, you know, I am going to practice deliberate calm. This is a moment that I need to practice. And. And we are on a podcast now, so I am grateful. I know you're juggling a lot, but thank you for being here.

Thank you. You need to be honest there she's. I withdrew my message again, right. So I was really struggling with it, but I found a deliberate palm. You said it beautifully.

So. So, my friend, you and I have gone back, you know, go back long ways. You know, we started with the adaptability and resilience. We wrote our article and then since then, you know, you've done so much research on that topic and you wrote deliberate calm. So talk a little bit about what is deliberate calm and why it is so needed for leaders, especially today.

Yes, thank you for that question. And I just want to add, of course, I co authored it with beautiful people, Michiel Kraut and Aaron de Smets, and they deserve to be named, of course. So I was a humble fellow, journey with them. So what is deliberate calm and why is it so important today? So let's start with today, because one key thing, if unpredictability increases, the need for deliberate calm increases exponentially with it. And what is happening today? Right. There's so much unpredictability at home. I mean, I experience it here. An example was in your inbox. But also out there, the world is changing, it's unpredictable. The weather, the climate is changing. A lot of great things happening as well. But as a result of great things happening and development in Ice T, Gen AI, you name it, that also means a lot of change comes to people. And so one quote actually also made me realize it is important today, but certainly also tomorrow. Many people have said it, the pace of change today is never going to be as slow as it is today. I'm saying it in a little bit of a liberal, loose way, and that is really true. So why what is a deliberate calm? Because when unpredictability increases, I mean, changes fast. You need to sometimes know when you Actually need to pause and take a calm step back and how you do that. So it is all about keeping an open mind, being aware, and being able to take the right decisions in moments that matter. That's what this is about.

I love it. You know, and friends, you know, this word gets thrown around this phrase. You know, change will never be. You know, it'll never be as slow as it was yesterday. But I ask you to reflect on it for a bit. Just even think about the AI shift that we have seen between the start of 2023 and the end of 2023. ChatGPT became public and available and accessible right around 2023 to people. Reflect that journey about how disruptive that technology has been and how rapid the adoption has been in the last 12 months, and compare that to when the Internet started in the beginning of 2000. You know, that. Or compare that to when telephones actually came around, you know, 50 years to 10 years to 10 months. And we are just getting started. And so I love this notion, Jackie, of, like, when things are happening so fast, they create fundamentally, you know, within us, we get triggered, right? We're like, oh, my God, what does it mean? And so many people just feel like things are changing so fast. Let's move. And your invitation, I find, is so beautiful to say, yes, you need to move quickly, but before you move quickly, find that place of calm so you can choose consciously where you want to go rather than just react in the way you always react.

Yeah, yeah. Someone said it beautifully recently as well. You know, the biggest, most powerful tool that we have in uncertainty is actually to pause and. And not respond. But the first thing we want to do is to respond, because that is just our normal human nature. But it is super powerful. And that is true, because often it is the wisest thing to do in that moment.

Exactly. Yeah. And it's human nature because, you know, we like to keep things under control. And so how do you take control? You act. Oftentimes we don't realize we make things worse when we just act. Right. And now there's another issue. So you talked about pause as being an effective key step towards practicing deliberate calm. What are some other key elements that fall under deliberate calm?

So we at the heart of what we practice, when we practice deliberate calm is so a concept that we call dual awareness. And that sounds beautiful. And everybody then thinks, what the heck is dual awareness? What is this now about? And it's too theoretical. But the simple thing is it's actually about being aware of what is needed in the Moment or in a situation, wherever you are, and connect that with what's needed for you, what's going on inside. And often what is needed here, it's not in line with what goes on inside. So if calm is needed inside, feel stressed. So how do you level set that or the other way around? Sometimes. But it is all about the dual awareness in neuroscience. I like the concepts interoception, extraoception. It is that combination bringing that together and then actually finding the right tune to play between that.

So talk a little bit. Describe to folks who are watching or listening the two concepts, interoception versus in exteroception. Yes.

So if we talk about the outs, the, you know, if you ask the question what, what's needed in the moment? So the extero, it is not 100% aligned, but it's, it's such a nice. These two words come so nicely out of the mouth. Right? But it is about the. Sometimes you find yourself in a moment that requires calm and pause and reflection and an open mind. The situation may be a high stakes, unfamiliar territory. That said, we have this simple two by two in the book that explains that. And an example of high stakes, unfamiliar territory is when you are under pressure and you need to do something new. Now, what you often feel internally inside is stress and what we just talked about, the need to respond very fast or to, to try to get in control. So I give you two scenarios to explain it better. Scenario one, there is a house on fire. High stakes. But for a trained firefighter, that's familiar territory. It costs stress, but the best thing the firefighter can do is basically focus and perform. Right? Execute. You should not wait and think because the house is down before you know it. He needs to act. You know, there's a famous formula by Timothy Galway that looks at potential that says potential is performance minus interference. So the stress that you experience is the interference. If you manage your stress, then that is where you can perform. And for business leaders or for anybody in a, in a high stakes but familiar territory, it's all about managing your stress. It's already difficult to do, but now imagine another situation. And I had it. Not so long ago, a family member got a call from what he thought was somebody from a bank. And he started to talk to my family member and then started to explain that lots of money was drained out of his bank account. So you, you can see high stakes, unfamiliar. His family member thinks what's going on? The trick, and this was a scam, of course, the trick that then Often happens is that time pressure is put on top of that and complexity. And before you know.

Yeah.

You go into that closed brain and you want to respond because you want to control, you want to stop the situation. Long story short, he got scanned, he gave in. That is the moment actually that you need to learn. Now, I'm not saying it would never happen to me because this is a very tricky thing, but it's a very good example of with deliberate calm, you may pick up messages where you say, okay, I'm going to pick down, put down this phone. I'm going to recall my bank. Because I now need to pause and not give in. But you get yourself tricked into. I need to quickly respond. What you need is the open mind instead of the quick response of the firefighter.

Yeah, I love that. Right. So noticing where it is a familiar territory, something that we know how to handle, in which we need to move quickly, but move quickly through a regulated nervous system. We don't need to rediscover what needs to be done. We just need to act. But we need to act with full awareness, with full control over the choices. Whereas I love the second example. Right. Which is this is one where it is unfamiliar territory and it is high stakes and your invitation in that moment to say, even if you calm yourself, it's not about actually taking action in terms of doing. It might be taking action around, inquiring about curiosity. It's actually choosing a different way.

Yes.

Versus just responding.

Yes. And if you continue, if you often play in that space and you and I both talk a lot to list leaders in the business context, then this becomes a journey of discovery and adjusting on the go right. Sometimes you go left and then you realize, I should not have gone left, I need to go right. So it's. It's not about always having the right answer, but it is about adaptively learning and growing and becoming better with an open mind. And pop.

Yeah. So implicit in there. Right. You touched on it briefly and I would love to have you share in your own words, you highlight this importance of mindsets.

Yes.

Right. And you call them protection versus learning mindsets.

Yes.

Talk to us a bit around these two. And what are some of the protection mindsets and what are some of the learning mindsets, especially important in these situations with high unpredictability so that we can be deliberately.

Yeah. One thing before I do that. If, and many people have heard this before, if you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change in a mindset. I sometimes wear my glasses if you talk about the innovative mindset, you know, this is the innovative mindset set of glasses. This is how I look at things with the open mind and the protection. Mindsets are more about the status quo mindsets. This is more, you know, another way of looking at things. Now I'm not saying one of these is bad and the other one is good because sometimes it's very good to use these, especially when you don't need to, you know, you just need to execute. Right. Can be very good.

For those who are listening, there are these really cool purple and red glasses that Jackie is putting on and off. Just for those who are just listening. Of course, if, if you're watching video, you'll see them. They're both really, really cool. I need to get one of these too.

Yeah, I want another set actually. Anyway, that's another for another podcast. But no, but that, that is what it is about. It's basically the one set is more suited sometimes for situations where you need to act and just perform. Maybe just spoke about that high state familiar. It could be, you know, you have everything you need, you just need to. But it is a mindset is a way of looking at the world that can be fixed mindsets, it can be, you know, an expert experts. Yeah, all kinds of ways of looking at the world. Sometimes they have a negative connotation and there is also a victim mindset. I don't like those in general, but if they are there, they are not always harmful, but they're not always helpful when you actually need innovation, creativity, open mind and space. Because this basically is the glass half full, then you indeed will. Everything will limit itself versus if you look at the glasses, half. No, the other way around, half empty versus half full. And that is really true. So if you look for opportunities and possibilities, you will find them. And if you look for this impossibilities, you will also not find the rest. Because you, you know, you remember. Maybe not, but the moment you start buying a specific red car, you see red cars everywhere, Right. It's all about priming the brain. So that's what this is about.

Yeah, and I love it. You know, we were looking at resilient and non resilient, right. Which is really these, you know, we're talking about protection, learning and friends. You know, I mean. Another phrase to remember by Naisnan. I love the work. You see the world as you are, not as the world is. Right? Yes, wise saying, but it is so true. It is so true. And I love the framing because often in this work we this is another one of those either or situations, right? I love the fact he said, look, it depends on what the situation is, that which mindset might suit you best. So it's not that you always need to think about learning mindset or curiosity or abundance. If a house is on fire and you're a firefighter, there's a particular way you need to go act. But let's not rediscover a new way to fight a fire today. But in situations that I guess you would call them more in the predictable world, you know them, right? Complicated, simple situations, I think it's fine to go in with what you're calling a protection mindset, right? Like let's think about find the root cause quickly and address it.

And to circle back, why did we bring this up in the context of deliberate calm, it is knowing and understanding the mindset. The mindsets that are active in a specific moment may help you actually to reframe in a moment to say, okay, can I look at this in a different way? To help you to practice deliberate calm and actually created that calm. But also the open mind.

I love that. Now, obviously, we are talking about changing behaviors, Jackie, at the top out here. And you and I both know changing behaviors. Behaviors are only the top of the iceberg. And you highlight this beautiful four layered iceberg model to say if you really want to shift behavior, go explore deeper. So can you share a bit around the three additional layers that sit deep behind behaviors that we really need to face and shift to make the behavior sustainable?

Make the behavior sustainable. Yes. We use the analogy of the iceberg because everybody knows that picture, right? And the top of the iceberg is that I wear the snow above the waterline. And that represents this behavior. The way you look at me right now, the way you kindly smile at me all the time. You ask me questions. That is something that we see. But there is a lot happening that I cannot see that's going on inside of you. Right? And so the way we explain it, and it's not hyper scientific, but it is a very helpful, we notice it's a very helpful way for people to start understanding how then that change happens. Is the first layer under the water are your thoughts or your feelings. They influence most directly the immediate behavior, the immediate action. If you have a specific thought, then you act or you respond consciously or unconsciously. Just. Just happens feelings the same way. And it's very important. That can be a feeling, can be a thought that you have because you sense something in your body. But it may also Be the result of stomach pain or whatever it is. Then the layer under that is those mindsets that feed you know, that almost are the frame that. And then your. Your thoughts hop off of that, your values or your beliefs. And under that is rooted your identity and where you come from. So there's basically a layer up. It's the hardest to change. And that is true. I mean where you grew up and what you lear when you were a child will be with you forever. But it will may get in the way of how you behave or you discover that it is actually happening and you create another route. So then other options are there. So you widen the aperture of, of what. What you believe or who you, what you stand for. But those, those layers are. They're not important to change behavior directly, but they're important, they're helpful to understand because you need to become more conscious about what's holding you back or that thoughts or else. And they inform. The nice thing is also another, another way of looking at is. You mentioned the word already. We predict until we actually know for sure. And that prediction is based on what actually is in the there. What we've been given in the past. Right?

I mean this model, you know, is. I talk a lot around this in the Hardwired for Happiness. So anybody who's read that book, right, would be familiar, right, with this iceberg model. But friends, just think about this for a minute, right? Jackie's got a copy of the book.

There it is always.

So, you know, think about this, my friends, and I'll give you a very simple, you know, talk about how powerful this framing can be deep within. So imagine if you are like I was. I know Jackie's not going to believe this, but you know, at one stage in my life I was actually quite shy and I was quite. I had performance anxiety when talking in front of a lot of people. And what happens is the following. So just let's take that model. The behavior when I'm anxious might show up as I might explain more or I, you know, people can sense it. You know, my feelings in my, you know, my thoughts are, oh my God, people are going to laugh at me. I'm going to mess up. The feelings are. My body's already getting ready to run. My heart rate is racing. You know, I can feel my palms getting sweaty. I'm feeling clammy. And these are all signs that my body is saying you're doing something you're not meant to be doing. And you know, the fear might come from, you know, very early age you might have gotten up to sing or you sang something and somebody made fun of you, and everybody laughed. That was my story, right? And so now all of a sudden, that fear of, oh, my God, everybody laughed is, I'm going to be a laughing joke. My body is already sensing it. My thought is, this is not going to go well. And my behavior hence is, I'm showing up really, really scared. Now, you can say all you want, hey, don't be scared. People are really caring for you and you'll be fine. But imagine, you know, for me, what made the shift and actually now it's second nature was deep underneath, you know, this notion of that fear. That was one situation that wasn't always. And also a bigger need to say. The work that I'm doing now, I feel so called towards that there is a real need. If I don't speak, I don't give this information out there, right? So deep within, there is a bigger need. Even if people laugh, I don't care because there are so many people who are hurting right now that need this help. The next level above is the free frame at the feelings level, right? For me, which is, well, one interpretation of the body reacting with sweaty palms and like, you know, all this heat I feel is that it's nervous. The other is it's being prepared to help me give the best performance ever. The symptoms are the same, right? I'm getting really activated. My body's activating to help me deliver a really compelling speech out there. My thoughts become less about, oh, my God, all these people are gonna laugh at me. But my thoughts become about. They are here. They've given me the gift of their time, and they want to really listen. You know, they're not here to laugh at me. They have much better things to do than sit and laugh at me. And all of a sudden, I can engage in my behavior. You know, I show up as my full self rather than my contracted spell. I show up with love. I show up with passion. And that energy then connects everybody. So you can imagine how important this iceberg model is to make any behavior change, right? And I think Jackie do talk so beautifully in the book around, yes, you quote, unquote, can try and fake it till you make it, but it's not going to take you far unless you do the deeper work around recognizing what gets in your way in terms of your fears, your thoughts, your feelings, right? To make the shift.

And, you know, another. Another thing that we found, actually it's not only about how beautifully this in it will enrich you and I mean once you have these skills, you never. There's no way back. It's beautiful this, it makes you a better performer. It makes you a more overall human being. But what we found also in the work that I do looking at people's holistic health, we saw that these people that their health is improving and actually pilot study that I've done also that influenced directly heart rate variability. I mean there's so many benefits from it. It's almost like sometimes I call it. It's a new. It's a way of way of life. It's. We talk about operating model maybe later, but it's almost a way of life because there's no way back for me. There's no way back. I don't know about you, but I love it. It's not easy because becoming more aware, you pick up everything but you know, there's no way back for me.

We hope you're enjoying this episode. If you'd like to start building habits and integrating the hardwired for happiness practices into your life, come check out Rewire, our program on the Happiness Squad website. Rewire contains 35 minute micro practices that can help you truly build habits for a happier, healthier life filled with more love and meaning. The program uses the science of habit formation and the power of community to support you in moving from knowing to doing to being. Now back to the episode. Yeah, well, I can remember, you know, five years ago, Jackie, I would never talk about this word in the context of McKinsey, but since in the holistic well being work you put spirituality in the model, I'm going to go there on this podcast because it is a real thing. Science and spirituality are pointing to exactly the same thing. But really what you're talking about, it is a new way of life because in effect it's an invitation to actually evolve our consciousness to a higher level so that we can create solutions from that evolved state of consciousness for the problems in the world that are more complex than our ability to hold it right. Einstein, who said this, we have to evolve our consciousness. You cannot solve problems with the same level of consciousness that created it. And that's why you're saying it's a new way of life like we have to. The world is more complex, more unpredictable. Change how you show up.

And we say often it's a bit less inspirational than the way you say it, but it's relevant because in the working context, this is still relevant. Healthy work, healthy employees, healthy organizations, healthy communities. And this we found that this set of skills are at the heart of it, actually. And spiritual health is so important and so relevant and it has nothing to do with vagueness. I mean, the way we talk about it is about purpose and meaning. And that's what you also highlighted before. So it's very important.

Yeah, I mean that's the spiritual core. Right. That is the core of who you are and how you make sense. You know, for me, spirituality is just about recognizing that we are part of a bigger whole, isn't it? It's about union. So you talked a little bit around it. In organizations, this is not just important for individuals for their well being. Right. But you talk about how important this is in a team setting and how important it is at an organizational setting. Can you tell a story, Jackie, around a client that you might have done this work with or a team and how you saw them evolve, how they showed up and what became possible for them?

Yeah, this is all about. Remember we spoke about the iceberg and when we talk about settings, so. So what I see you do doesn't mean I know what you think and what you believe and so on. And there, that's where we talk about how icebergs can collide. Right. People sometimes think they can predict what people think because they can read faces. It's nonsense. It's also science has already proven that. So that advice is stay curious. You may love asis or you may be looking happy, but who knows what's going on for Ashish in the moment. Right. And for anybody in the team. But anyway, in team settings, yeah, we actually many beautiful examples and it depends on where teams come from. But the first thing is always give them the language and the tools to actually understand what this is about. You start with the individual and then you expand with the teams. But you can, you know, once you actually start as different because a team is a set of icebergs together. If you can start working together, that is wonderful. But if you all collide and we have all been in teams that have been colliding, it doesn't many effective outcomes. So it's, it's about teaching people. What is this about having a set of languages have a. Have a language and then start practicing in the moment. And with a good facilitator you can realize that. And eventually people start using the language and intervene and they say, can we have this little moment? Can we have an awareness moment? Or can we have, you know, it is about having the ability to actually give words to what people feel in their stomachs. And so when do you See, it really well applied is if you have, I mean, yes, if you need to run operations meetings and you have 30 minutes and you need to do quick stuff, it's not super relevant. When you need to think about the future of your organization and you need to talk about innovation and you are not allowing the liberal calm in the room and humility and openness and you know, have the right words to talk about different problems, elephants that need to come to the table. Then you get the little chief doms and the kings at the table that do not talk but fight invisibly. You know, you see it, but you don't. It's not set. So the moment, and I've seen it multiple times, this is brought into the mix. It unleashes a lot of potential because people start listening, people start understanding each other and it's less about.

They stop blaming. Right. They stop blaming each other.

Making villains, they start taking accountability for the fact that they actually feel like they're blame, but now they won't blame. It's all about that. It's really beautiful. It's not so much about game that is played and that feels horrible and everybody feels it, but nobody can get worse with. But then everybody shows up.

Yes.

Hey, listen, I take accountability for actually my misbehavior here or I take accountability for speaking up. And so that's beautiful. I mean, how you do it is a journey, right. You need time. You cannot just say I push a button and now my team is a little bit calm. It takes time.

Yeah. So I want to go there next. But before that, you know, this other element that you so beautifully weaved in, you know, it's at the heart of the work I'm doing. I'm so glad you have this as a core, actually, you know, at a team level, learning and being able to voice requires. Is such an important ingredient.

Right.

Requires psychological safety. And unless the leader creates that as almost a critical foundational element to practice deliberate calm, we're not going to get there. Yeah.

So it's contagious, right? If the behavior is contagious and if the leader is showing. Showing up with deliberate calm, that's contagious. But also the other side, toxic behavior, is contagious. So what are you casting the sunshine or do you put the cloud over the tea? That's basically the question, what does a.

Typical journey, Jackie, let's say there was a leader, right? There's a CFO or there's a head of a business who says, okay, I get it. I can see the Benefit. I see that the world is more changing fast and I don't think we're pausing enough to kind of create this space. What would a journey like that, Jackie, look like for them to really build this core capability, this new way of operating in the world that's going to be the driver behind their success or failure?

Yeah, well, there are multiple routes, but a very successful route is you start with a leadership team and you actually start working with them to have them learn and embody this, this new set of skills. And that is not something set apart from the business context. You weave it into the business context and a business agenda. Right. You're feed it with content. And so you take them on this journey of a number of weeks or a couple of months. Sometimes it takes a different location, sometimes there are different variations. And then you can choose. What we often do is then you actually cascade. So you bring that then to the teams of the top leadership team. And what we have done successfully, you can actually roll it out in a whole organization if you have the digital assets. So you can train actually relatively easy, a whole organization on these set of skills virtually digitally over a number of months. And if the engagement is high, then we see fantastic outcomes versus engagement that is lower. So we had a control group setting for that. Yeah.

And how do you increase engagement? What might be some tips for people? Because people are incredibly busy, right?

Yeah.

And we might, you know, many leaders say, well, I can do training, I don't have time to do training. But let's say even if I did it, you know, are people actually implementing it? So what are some, two, three things that you've seen really, really work to get engagement?

Yeah. These are the basics in any good learning and development programs and engagement programs. Right. It's is have engagement from the top and have a role model. A role model embedded in the organization. Make it relevant for people to join and communicate about it, but also follow up. So if you embed it and make it part of a learning journey, then that gives. That justifies for people to participate in it. Right. That is, it's part of a journey and it is. And make it really worth their while. So if you also integrate it in the work that they need to do, the word calls out. I mean, you only need one good pilot and everybody wants to have it. It's very simple.

Yes. So what I'm taking is role modeling. Start with a top team or a leadership team. Right. That is willing to, if they want to implement it. Don't just rely on facilitated journey. You can also do digital learning as a way to scale because the more people do together, the better things are. And what you're also saying is, you know, so, so, so important in all of this. You're also saying this role of role models, right. As being so important is either leadership's going to show up and through daily actions make it happen. You will see. And if you have a successful pilot, more people will want that. So nothing succeeds like success.

That's absolutely true. But role modeling is super key. Of course. I mean that is. And that is sometimes underestimated. But it's so important to just have a few people that actually can champion. But they will, I mean, if you get the good version of this, they will. Right. That's what our.

Exactly, exactly. So I want to like shift a little bit, Jackie, you know, keeping an eye on the time I want to shift from. You know, we talked about deliberate calm, we talked about the framework, we talked about the importance for organizations for teams, how they might go do it. I want to actually turn and put the spotlight on you and I want to hear from you on what are some personal tips from your own operating model. Right. You are at the heart of the research the firm does. You know, I think in the last two years, you're the only one I know who wrote two books, not three, who also was at the heart of the well being research work that the firm is doing. I don't know how many articles. You're also helping client teams. You're a mom, you know, you're a daughter. There are so many roles you play, but somehow you always are able to find, you know, you're able to find that energy, you're able to navigate all of this. What's your secret? What are some two or three things that are non negotiables for Jackie that allow you to kind of be, you know, deliver and perform at the level.

Yeah.

That you do.

Yeah. I. The heart of everything is that I really live my purpose. So I really focus on what I want to do and I cut out the stuff that I don't want to do. And that is very liberating. But for some people it feels risky because I don't, I identify with a role, so I really do. What's purposeful?

Purpose is a really big deal for you.

Purpose is a huge deal. And then non negotiable for me is trying to sleep very well. And non negotiable for me is daily walks. Non negotiable is also showing up. And maybe that's the, that should Be the number one showing up when the children and the family need me. And the way I manage stress is. I mean, the way I actually have the operating model that I have gives me a lot of flexibility. It's very hard work, but flexibility is everything for me. I love hard work, but I need time to recover and I need to work with the people that I trust. And I do. I'm lucky. I'm so lucky I can be totally myself. And when it goes, when I really feel challenged, I practice a lot of breathing and breathing exercise and re centering getting into my body and feeling where I am and. And then taking a break standing at my desk. Sometimes I choose that I set intention in the morning, which means I look ahead of the day. What's the day going to look like? And if by chance it's fully booked back to back to back, I take action because I don't believe in that. You need to take breaks. And so there are so many things, but these are the most important ones. I try to eat healthy, but that's very hard for me. I love sugar and as she's. I love laughing. So I love, you know, positive progress things, doing positive things. That is beautiful. But my struggles, as you know, I mean, I've told you my story, we all do.

Life has struggles, but it's these skills and habits that we build, routines that we build. You know, that's what I always say. This is not about perfection, but it's about progress, imperfection.

That is so beautiful. That's life, right? It's just what it is.

That is life. You know, I was walking with somebody the other day. We were on a walk near Chautauqua here. And you know, he's super senior, you know, very successful person. And he said, you know, I feel like a fake. I know my imperfections and things aren't the way they are. And I asked him, I said, just look around you when we are walking. It was the most beautiful red chautauqua. The flatirons are just so beautiful. And everywhere we see out there, we see beauty. And I said, do you notice that no tree is like the other? Do you notice that this tree actually is almost bent? But we are not judging anything out there. We are accepting nature in its true imperfect form as a perfect scene. And so I say, your life is the same, right? Why are you. Why are we? We have this notion of constantly judging because we know ourselves best. We know our doubts, even when others don't see it. We know those things where we didn't, you Know, we kind of did something else versus something else.

Yeah.

We know it. And we constantly judge. Right. Like, this notion of it's okay, you know, every day is okay. Maybe I ate a little bit too much sugar today. Right. Maybe tomorrow will be different and I can start tomorrow. But I love this notion of so many of these healthy routines, Jaffi, that you talked about. Walking, breathing, breaks, sleep.

Yeah.

Standing laughter. That, you know, if we one at a time start to build these habits, I think we will be better in our lives.

Yes. It's very powerful. The other thing is also the two things. We all have our backpack and, you know, there's so many things happening in life. You put things in perspective. Especially when, like me, you've. I've recently turned 50.

Things get easier March 9 for me.

Oh, congrats. Ahead of power race. And we make a beer. That's wonderful. And, you know, the other thing is also, it's different for everyone, and we all can find what works for us. I, you know, I like so many things, but they also change over the years, and then I go back to others. I like running as well. I mean, there's so much the moment and the other thing I used to believe, you know, I need to start with a new habit on a Monday. It needs it to be perfect. And then if I would miss it on Tuesday. Okay. Next Monday, I start again. No longer. You can start now. If you mess up, start again the same minute. You know, it's an ongoing thing. It's fine.

Every breath is an opportunity to start anew.

Wonderful. Yeah.

Well, this was amazing. Jackie, thank you. Thank you for fitting us in. Thank you for spending the time. You know, I am grateful for our friendship, you know, for all the time we work together. You're amazing. Keep shining your light.

My dear friend, thank you so much. Likewise, and it's been a delight to be here.

That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love, and meaning. Please consider leaving us review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember, happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week.