Unlocking Human Potential By Rethinking Talent Development for a Flourishing Future of Work with Stacey Dietsch

It's hard when you don't feel valued in your day to day work. So the more leaders can speak to the impact that they see through all the different roles, the more I think people will see that they are valued and feel committed Back to the organization.

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Is AI the biggest threat to talent or its greatest unlock? In this episode, I sit down with Stacy Deitsch, EVP of talent at Liberty Mutual and former McKinsey partner to explore how AI is reshaping the future of work. Stacy offers a refreshing take that AI isn't here to replace us, but to amplify us, especially the middle managers who hold organizations together. We unpack how AI can democratize development, personalize growth journeys, and turn learning into a competitive edge. We'll also explore the risks, like rushing into cost cutting before capability building. If you're a leader wondering how to prepare your teams for an AI powered future without losing the human touch, this conversation is a must. Listen hi Stacy, I am so excited for this conversation Conversation. Thank you for joining me on this Happiness Squad podcast.

I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for the opportunity.

So Stacy, as you. I mean, you've had an impressive journey. You were one of my favorite partners at the firm at McKinsey. You know, in our old practice you led all of our greatest thinking around talent and learning and development. And then you transitioned and moved to Liberty Mutual.

Right?

So like from consulting to kind of really, you know, talk about real experience. Not many consultants have real experience as you actually do. And I'm just curious about as you think about your life, you know, your life's arc, what have been some of the most, you know, who are some people or philosophies that have really shaped your perspectives on this topic of talent and leadership.

I love starting with this because it invites me to go way back. And the first person who comes to mind is actually my dad because he gave me from the earliest days the understanding that everybody matters and has something to offer and everybody deserves to be heard and valued. He would talk to everybody. He would, you know, talk to the receptionist, the janitor, the executive, the person passing by the young children of friends. And at his memorial service, there were so many people who came up to me and said, oh, my gosh, your dad just always knew and remembered what was going on in my life and really made me feel special and that I've taken with me always to think about, you know, what. What are those special ingredients that each of us has within us that need to be exposed and unleashed so that that person can feel like they are making a meaningful contribution in whatever way they want to in their lives just by being who they are. So that's. That's really the first thing that stuck with me. And then I really was not sure, growing up what I wanted to do as a job. And it was, of course, this amazing psychology professor who showed me that the study of human behavior, the care and the understanding of why people do what they do, why people think the way they do, and, you know, how you can positively influence behavior toward a good end, really helped me see that there was a connection between that first lesson of my dad's to helping an organization or a team or an individual find meaning through impact in their. In their work and their life. And then the third thing is really the firm and the way that we talked about feedback at the firm, because it is in that opportunity of seeing where you have blind spots, where you have opportunities to grow, that you can propel yourself forward. And it's always so thrilling to be able to watch somebody overcome a challenge and be able to demonstrate a big leap in performance.

That's amazing. You know, this notion of, how special do we feel?

Right.

When you run into. And, like, what a beautiful gift from your dad when we run across those people who really. When you're with them, they're fully with you, and they really make you feel special.

Exactly right.

I mean, it's such a gift. Who was the professor? I'm curious, who informed on your second story?

Oh, gosh. Her name was Professor Greenberg. And, you know, it was so early in our journey of digitization that I definitely lost touch with her. And I'm hoping that she knew from our last interaction that she made such an impact, but I'm not sure if she did.

I've discovered all of this work pretty late. As you know, Stacey, I grew up in ops at the firm, and only around 2014 started really focusing on flourishing on a topic. So the three people whose work I have been so, like, I'm so blessed to have them in my circuit now. And, like, I've learned from them. I've read almost every book that they've Written are Jane Dutton, Kim Cameron and Bob Quinn. They're all at Michigan Ross. They're in the center for Positive Organization Scholarship.

Such a special place, right.

And unbelievable. The role of positive, energizing, positive leadership, ways of showing up that energize people and the power.

Yeah.

I mean, there is such a big science around this work. And so, you know, now I know how all of a sudden why you made such a big impression on me. Because you had, you know, you had a lifetime of these learnings propelling you. Amazing.

Thank you.

So look, you know, at Happiness Squad, we define flourishing cultures really to be made up of five ingredients, right? We talk about, imagine an organization where you show up and you find meaning in what you do, rather than just a paycheck. A workplace that energizes you, excites you to show up on Monday. A workplace which is helping you learn and grow and be adaptable.

Right?

That's just the nature of the organization rather than bureaucratic, something where you enjoy deep, trusting relationships and friends. And finally, you know, are organizing and conducting work in ways that allow people to be at their cognitive best versus drown them in a game of meeting bingo all day long, right. On their calendars. That's how we describe it. And if we are able to find that, you know, we find that that actually results in much higher level of well being for the people. But most importantly, performance skyrockets. I'm curious how your experience around these five, right, from your research, from your time at Liberty, how do these resonate? And are there any additional factors that you found that are actually equally important to create flourishing organizations?

I love the factors that you mentioned, and starting with purpose, because I do feel like when somebody has that authentic connection between their values and the why behind the work, it just. That's foundational. And when there is tension there, you can't really escape it. It's a baseline that you need to overcome in order for anything good to happen. The word that I like to reinforce over and over again, I think it comes into your idea of both energy and life force, because I think it's a driver of both, is empowerment. To me, that ownership, the ability to own your work, to be respected, for the expertise that you bring, to be supported in, you know, owning something end to end, I think is really fundamental. That's when I think that to your point, people can be at their cognitive best because they are trusted to do the work. And your bureaucracy point, your meeting point, really resonates with me because it is when people feel like they are Constantly expanding, explaining their work to people instead of actually doing it, delivering it, and then ultimately being able to celebrate the impact of it, that they. Their energy is truly diminished. And you can see the productivity decline, and you can see the performance decline. And, you know, a word that is near and dear to your heart, this notion of burnout comes when people feel disempowered and not able to show up as their best.

Yeah, I love that. You know, and I'm. And with that empowerment, I would probably include things that are so getting lost right now, which is flexibility and autonomy.

Right.

Yep.

I think this. I love this. I read this somewhere and it really spoke to me. You know, we hire adults, but somehow we've started treating them like children.

Yeah.

Where are you going? To work? When are you showing up? What were you doing? And, yeah, I mean, it just takes, you know, like, if you want to treat people. If you treat people like that, then they will act that way. And then all of a sudden it's not exciting. And. Yeah, you know, you just feel like a cog in the wheel. I'll give you what I'm supposed to.

Exactly. There was a book that I was exposed to, actually, through a client, through a leadership development program we were doing with a client, and they had read the book, and we invited the author to come and speak. And the author is Liz Wiseman, and the book is Multipliers. And her concept was that we hire, like you said, adults. We hire talented people, and then the construct of the work environment diminishes the talent of the workforce, of the individual because of some of those systemic factors and also through a lot of leadership behaviors. And what I found really interesting is that there are some just naturally terrible people who purposely diminish the intellect and abilities of their people, but they are few and far between. A lot of us are what she calls accidental diminishers, who, you know, through just oftentimes our own strengths that are taken too far. Like, for me, my accidental diminisher quality is optimism. I just believe that anything is possible, anything should be easy. But when you are that way, then you don't always take into consideration, you know, how much work it's going to take. Do you put in all the right constructs and things? And so that that concept of being able to magnify or exponentially increase somebody's, like, your construct cognitive ability versus, you know, are you doing anything that is diminishing accidentally the ability for somebody to show up and do their best.

I'm going to order that copy of the Book. You know, I read a book a week, if not a book and a half. And I think that's definitely going on my next book. To read it, by the way, also so resonates with this conversation. I have all the time.

Right.

I have a leader I know who's always complaining, always like always, that how his team is not thinking critically enough, fast enough, aggressive enough.

Right.

He has to step in to solve the problems.

Right.

It's a classic example of, okay, you might know all the answers, but if you keep giving them the answers, they're going to get cognitively lazy. And if you keep correcting them, then they're not going to come because they're like, why put in the effort? Because I'm going to get an answer from you anyway. Yeah, right. So I think you almost amplify the behavior you don't want. I loved your accidental diminisher phrase.

Right.

Like it's so like, yeah, we're diminishing the value and that people can add for short term gains, but we are really sacrificing long term gains and more importantly, draining more of our energy.

That's right, exactly. Yeah. It's a win win if we can really unleash the potential of our people.

Yeah. So look, I would love to learn a little bit, you know, about At Liberty. How did you think about what was your core strategy around attracting and developing talent?

Right.

The work today is hybrid. There is so much changing in the world. There's a new generation.

Right.

Different values than some of the older generations. There is also all of these roles, changes with AI coming in. So there are so many changes. And I'm just curious, as you stepped into that organization and you built the strategy to attract and develop talent, how did you go about it? What are some of the key principles that are part of that?

I was lucky to come in at a time when Liberty had already set the culture aspiration, which is to be a high performing, equitable and inclusive culture. And so those were the three guiding lights, the north stars that really anchored the talent strategy. Because what we always had to start with was what performance is the business aspiring to. If we know what those performance drivers are, what those metrics are, then what are the skills that are needed to achieve that performance? And then how do we equitably. And that's the key, attract the highest performers with those skills. And when I say equitably, I really mean with rigor because what we really wanted to do throughout all of our talent processes was remove the bias that is unintended oftentimes, but just creeps up because we're humans. So how do we build rigor into the system so that it starts with those things that are more objective, like skills? So we're doing a really big skills transformation so that we understand what are the skills that are differentiators in the performance of the work. How do we show what those are, how do we screen for those? How do we then understand where somebody stacks up against those differentiators and then help them in their development toward, you know, mastery of those of those skills? So it really just becomes woven into the entire end to end cycle, starting with those most critical skills, selecting for them, developing them, and then promoting for them as well. It drives equity, but it also drives clarity. And it also helps anchor the prioritization of the investment in the development of our people as well.

I love that. So you started with the business and really it was about breaking down the skills.

Right.

Really looking and assessing where people are against those. And when you're hiring, making sure you're removing bias.

That's right.

What were some ways you did that, Stacy? What were some specific things that allowed you all to do that?

Yeah. So it's a work in progress for sure. And one of the foundational mechanisms for this is that we actually reset the performance and pay process last year. So that really showed that we were serious about elevating performance. And that high performance was the expectation for everybody. You know, to use a McKinsey expression, we were raising the bar. And when you raise the bar, the obligation is to make that transparent and to then set people up to successfully meet it.

Yes.

Then if they don't, you feel like you've done all you can to help them. But that's what we've been really focusing on is what is that set of expectations. So, you know, we started with a set of people leader commitments, for example, that we're now translating into a full leadership model. But so what are the people leader commitments that represent how we live into a high performing, equitable and inclusive culture? What does good look like against those? And then really inviting that 360 assessment of performance against those skills. And then we definitely wanted to keep the focus on impact and goals so that it became much more objective. You set out these goals. Did you achieve them or not? What evidence do you have of achievement so that there was a relationship. It didn't. It took out some of the subjectivity to it and really allowed us to acknowledge somebody who outperformed their goals and somebody who may have struggled to deliver on those expectations.

Amazing. I'm curious about this. One of the my dear friends who we are collaborating with, she wrote a book called the Win Win Workplace. Her name is Angela, Dr. Angela Jackson. She teaches at Harvard. And I actually first, for the first time ever. See, I'm a constant learner. This is a word you might be familiar with. Stars skilled through alternate resources.

Right.

Versus traditional. And I thought it was fascinating because I never thought about it that way. And I'm curious, how did your processes think? Did you think about stars? How are those included in some of the processes you all are thinking about?

Yes. So the stars concept is that you become skills based versus credential based in a sense. Right. So it's less about showing that you have a diploma from a specific school and more about demonstrating that you have skills. And it's a journey to get there. Right. There's still a lot of hiring leaders who want to see that school or that prior experience. And so what we're trying to do is show through assessment, oftentimes now a third party, although we're trying to move into building our own assessments internally, but through an assessment where people don't just list they have a skill but actually demonstrate that they have a demonstrate it. Exactly. And so that's one of the ways that we want to be able to shift toward a more. We don't want to filter people out and we've stopped doing this already. We don't want to filter people out based on the fact that they don't have a college degree. And we want to be able to rigorously assess the level of skill and certain jobs lend themselves to this kind of assessment more quickly and easily, like technology roles, for example, or some frontline sales roles. And so we've started to implement those assessments as screens into the job to help us make sure that we are, that we are setting the people up for success like we talked about before, being transparent about what the work is and making sure that their onboarding and ramp up time is faster because we know they have the skill.

Yeah.

You know what I'm also excited about is with AI, I think being able to also create more scenario based, even kind of intake rather than just a resume, because we know there are all these biases with AI and resume screening, et cetera. But I think if organizations take a step forward and really create more role based, scenario based, like we had cases at the firm that allow people to truly demonstrate, all of a sudden you can open the aperture a little bit more to be able to have people show that, oh my God, you know, somebody has the skills we need.

Exactly. And you're seeing that happen already. You're seeing it happen in two ways. One way is you're actually interacting in an interview with an agentic AI recruiter who is just digital. The other way that it can happen and I think feels oftentimes better for the interviewee, is that the AI is, is listening and hearing what the conversation is leading toward and prompting the interviewer with the right next question question, which can still add that human element, but help the human really ask the right next question to get at the skills that matter most.

Yeah, help that human interviewer be more human, as my friend Rasmus would say.

Right, exactly.

Because you're right, we all have biases. And the reason those are problematic is we are, we are actually blind to it. Right, right. So it's not that somebody's trying to be biased. We are biased. We all are. Like anybody says they're not. We are all biased. And so having somebody, you know, having an intelligence really show us our own blind spots and probe a bit further, I think can be so, so powerful. Yeah. Depends on how we use it. So look, if I want to step back and I want to think about your entire, you know, unbelievable experience, we are all about building cultures where people flourish.

Right.

And I'm curious, you know, from your experiences, Stacy, what are some of those nuggets? What are some ways that when you've seen companies build really great cultures where people belong, where they're growing, where they want to stay, what would you say are some of the hallmarks of those organizations?

I'd say that first and foremost, back to my word of empowerment and making sure that the people are free to do the work that they were hired for and don't feel like they have to justify every step of the process, but are really allowed to demonstrate the impact. I think an organization that invests in leadership development is also setting itself up for success. And the reason is that all of the research on why people join and why people leave an organization is centered around the experience they have with a leader. And it is. And oftentimes we are really great with the introduction to leadership and we're really great with those really high potential leaders. And we forget those leaders who are really in charge of the day to day operations of most employees. And so I feel like the organizations that unlock the most potential and productivity are the ones who acknowledge the importance of those leadership roles and invest in that talent to give them the tools they need for the job. Now and also show them that there is a path for their own development. One of the things that I think is a really great indicator of that that I see in organizations is if you push succession planning really low into the organization so that you're talking about the fact that everybody's job is to develop themselves and others. If you want to have the next step in your career, you need to be thinking about who's ready to take your role, not put it on the leader to do it. Take that responsibility because that responsibility of coaching and developing somebody else is such a great indicator that you're committed and you have the skill to move to that next level. So I think that building in practices around succession at all levels is shows that you are committed as an organization to the growth and the movement of your people. I'd say the other thing that is truly important is the connection of the top team to the employee base through communications, through connections, through the acknowledgement that they truly understand the day to day work of the people who are touching the customer, the client, the product, whatever it might be. And that takes a lot of work. Because there's often one of the things we see a lot is this feeling valued by senior leaders is in employee engagement scores, often a really low score. And if you don't feel valued by this in your leaders, it really goes back to your idea of how do you flourish, how do you thrive?

Totally.

It's hard when you don't feel valued in your day to day work. So the more leaders can speak to the impact that they see through all the different roles, the more I think people will see that they are valued and feel committed back to the organization.

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I love those three, but I especially, especially love the middle one. What an idea. You know, if you ask any organization and the people there like who decides who gets promoted, oftentimes, you know, people will say, well, it's not it's somebody about right, like it gets nominated, anointed, et cetera. And I love the idea of pushing it all the way down, right? As even the first time manager, you're like basically saying, hey, how are you developing your next layer?

Right?

I really, really like that. And I do think, I think this is a big strategic advantage. And yet what should be common sense, Stacey, is not common practice.

Correct.

Right.

Across all of my time, so much training when people come in, obviously all the leadership development coaching at the senior levels, but the middle of the organization, which is actually getting both, all the bulk done, I often find is the most overburdened, the the most under skilled because nobody actually invests in them either in executing better, right. Or in terms of managing their people better, are the most burnt out. And often because they feel sandwiched between, you know, the top and the bottom, they choose the path of disengagement because they're like, I just can't, like literally I cannot handle pressure from both sides. So my choice is I'm just going to show up and I'm disengaged. And I see it over and over in organizations like brilliant strategies, smart people at the top, excited people who join in. But then the middle, all the strategies, you know, they go to die, right? Nothing happens.

This is the population I see the most potential to help through AI because of a couple, a couple reasons. Number one, how can AI help them be better leaders and better managers day to day in taking some of the tasks that they do repeatedly and making them simpler through like a GPT type of AI support? The other way that I get excited is exactly to your point. You know, the organizations often have to make a trade off in terms of whether you're going to invest their L and D dollars. And so it does make sense to set people up for success and overinvest in those critical roles that are really delivering the most economic value. You understand that. But then to your point, you're really missing a huge swath of the organization. So one of the things that we are excited about in the AI revolution is the notion of if people take their growth plan seriously and say, I'm aspiring to this role, then you know, using AI to do the crosswalk of okay, you have these skills, this role requires those skills. Let me suggest a curated learning plan for you so that it takes advantage of often the resources that big corporations have or even smaller organizations can access a lot of free learning resources. 100% there's LinkedIn learning or you know, there's an or you know what learning is out there that can be curated into a learning journey for little to no cost, that is personalized for each of those leaders and they put it in their growth plan. So their leader sees that this is their aspiration, the leader sees that they're committed to their own development and then they're actually improving their performance while also seeing that there is movement. And the movement doesn't have to be an immediate promotion, but the more that you have a truly skills based pay for progression model, you can link credentialing or certifications to additional pay that can be a motivator on that journey to potentially something bigger and more exciting in their own career.

You know, that's music to my ears, you know Stacey, so as you know, one of the things that we are really excited about building out, I'm with you. I think with AI there is a potential to personalize and democratize flourishing because it for the first time allows us to actually get the skills that people need and make it almost self paced learning and like really help people choose. So even on flourishing, you know, our human capital loss model, we're actually basically creating something that allows every team leader to be able to with their team assess their state of flourishing every month and jointly come up with what options exist, what can we do in the context of performance.

Right.

I think for some, so many small medium businesses. I'm with you. I think really looking at what skills are needed, where people are and then how do you actually help them suggests pathways in pretty low cost ways. So look, I'll give you an example of this that we're just living ourselves. So you know, I've been sitting with this and I decided to make a move on it. We are going to build an AI forward organization at Happiness Squad. What does that mean?

Right.

Everybody who is here needs to be proficient in AI at the base level. So they are constantly thinking about how can they 10x their effectiveness by integrating AI into what they're doing. And so I went into ChatGPT and I literally said, hey listen, here's what we are doing. Here's my team, help me create a curated plan that I could actually over the next eight weeks, 12 weeks, really jointly with our team, go on a journey together. And it literally created. So we're kicking it off in week after next. We're going to start with AI basics. We're then going to prompt engineering. We're then going to how do we create GPTs, custom GPTs. We're then going to how do we do agentic AIs and it's a progression. And litly said, create me a learning and a practical. So like it literally designed a plan, it all uses open free courses that we can actually learn and support each other in doing. But that's, you know, it costs us nothing.

Exactly.

It costs us time. But I think that's so possible today. And I'm really excited about that because I think it can be a game changer.

Yes, I agree. I heard a really inspiring story from a colleague who talked about doing that for himself, really setting his growth plan, asking for that learning journey. And then you know what he asked for, which I think is just so cool. He said, test me, give me the tests, ask me. You suggested these learnings. Give me a test to make sure that I understand it, make sure that I can play back what I've learned. And I just thought that number one, it was so neat that he thought to do that. And also how great that you can have a bit of a back and forth to not just be fed information, but to be reminded that real learning happens when you play that back to your practice point, practice how you would articulate it, practice how you would put it in to the flow of your work. And we can get that help too from our AI friends.

Absolutely. Absolutely right. In fact, it reminds me, I was, you know, three months, three months ago, when Ashwin was preparing for his ninth grade finals, I went up and he was using chat and I was like, hey, you're supposed to actually why, why are you using ChatGPT, you should be studying for your test. And he's like, yeah, I uploaded my sheet that has all the concepts I need to know and I'm just having it generate tests so I can keep testing myself. That's so cool, right? And whatever I'm not getting, it just generates the next one. And I think that's the way I'm learning. And I was, for a moment I was like, okay, yeah, that's pretty cool, right? So look, I mean we've talked about a couple of opportunities where I think AI can actually be so transformative, right? For human capital development, to helping people continue to learn and grow, grow into much more better versions of themselves around the skills they need, but also as better leaders and managers. I'm curious, what are some of the risks you see that AI can represent for human capital?

For me, the biggest risk is the leaping in to thinking of it as a cost savings mechanism. I've already seen this in leaders who think, oh, okay, if I can 10x productivity, that means I need 10x fewer people to be employed in our organization. And I don't think that that is the formula we want to use, number one. And number two, I think it misses the point about investment. It's not a flip the switch kind of experience you need to invest in, whether it's the skills like you're talking about with your team, or the tools or the technologies to be able to make that shift toward more automation in the flow of your work. And so what I want people to be upfront about is there could be savings. And, you know, the responsible way to approach it is to, to build the infrastructure before you make any decisions around headcount. It just reminds me so much of the outsourcing offshoring conversations of a few decades ago where people were just thrilled that they were going to get the headcount off their books and didn't realize how much investment it takes to document the processes, train the outsourcing partner on the processes, manage the outsourcing partner to ensure that they are delivering on the performance objectives. And so I just really want people to be aware that they need to invest and that it takes some time to realize cost savings potential from AI. That's, that's probably the biggest risk. And then the other risk is that people forget to think on their own, I think. And so the way that I like, I love it when people even translate the AI into assistive intelligence or, you know, really talk about it as an. And instead of an or, so that everybody, you could imagine that everybody from your intern to the CEO has, you know, one or more AI assistants to help them do their jobs better, but not to replace them.

Yes.

There will be jobs that are lost, for sure. And there will be jobs that are created. I do think everybody's job should and will change if they use those assistants in the right way. And then they can evolve the workflows in the pace of their ability to get the most of it.

Yeah.

You know, I sit with this Stacy.

Right.

And I often think about this. There are three pathways that any organization and leader can take with AI.

Right.

There are three pathways. The path, number one is what I think most companies today are leaning towards. And we are seeing it across Microsoft and Google and bank, et cetera, et cetera.

Right.

Which is the path you talked about, which is how can I actually save money?

Right.

And that's fine.

Right.

But even there, as you said, look, don't forget all the work that's actually involved, even in first training the AI.

Yes.

And you will never, it'll never, you know, replace all the collective insights, right, that the group has. And it takes a bit of time, but even if you did that, there's a responsibility that we have as businesses to our employees. When you start seeing a bunch of people lose jobs, it fundamentally delays also AI adoption. Because why am I going to be more proactively thinking about next? It's my job. You're not going to AI completely roll out AI in every function. And it's not that people don't watch. And so I think there is real challenges there. But I actually, you know, what it, what breaks my heart is that there are very few organizations who are actually thinking about the two other paths that exist.

Right.

So the two other parts can be any business that starts, you know, if you go back to kind of why businesses exist and why entrepreneurs start businesses, you know, most companies, at least in the origin idea, the business exists to serve a higher purpose. And it's, you know. And Alex Edmonds, who's an economist, you know, I love his line, he says if you follow the road of purpose, you reach the land of profit, I think. And people have gotten that backwards. And so if you step back and say, look, in a pre AI world, we had a certain number of resources and these are the people we could serve because of the demand supply mix. But now if I have 30, 40% more capacity, how many more markets can I serve? How many more regions can I serve? What other products can I actually use? The talent that earlier was not possible for me. Yes, right. And so really think about using AI to grow the pie rather than really use it as another way to split the pie between how much money I make as a company or give to shareholders. And I don't see many people doing that.

Right.

Really thinking about how can I actually use this to amplify my impact in the world. And then there is a third one, you know, this harebrained idea. I guess I've done too much time and looked at a lot of research around what helps people to be at the best. You know, 30% capacity means there is a potential either to have go to a four day work week or give people time back. You know, we know from all the four day work week research, you know, most companies who have tried it don't want to go back, they are more creative, people stick around longer, they're more innovative. But even if we don't go to a four day work week, instead of loading people with more work, which is what we would do in model number two, you give people Time to do what they're supposed to do better. So for example, if 70% of my time was spent on preparing for a performance dialogue, right, like just preparing all the content and 30% is spent on actually the dialogue, I could now flip it because now only 30%. So I can use that 70% time to have a more deliberate dialogue. Have the dialogue, Stacy, that you highlighted in the prior point. Hey, what are the roles? What are your strengths? Where do you want to go? Let's co create the plan together. How can I help you? I think we can really create a more human workplace where every leader is consciously working to develop really intimately knows who worked for them and is working to develop them. And I don't see that being played out that either. And I think that's both of those are such big opportunities. Yes, I think that exists.

I agree with you. I do feel like option two of how can we. It's kind of the new version of doing more with less or more with the same. And I do think that that will get traction. I think people will recognize maybe when they eliminate some of the low hanging fruit and drive some cost savings, they will see, oh, we can repackage this winning model and apply it here.

Yes.

Much more quickly. I wonder how much that will translate into a shift in the expectations of how people spend their time. I think that's a really interesting challenge. I think the first, you know, if I could shift one thing in work, it would be this. Reducing meetings and letting people focus on the work, focus on the impact, not the justification like we've talked about before of the work. And that would be a really neat way to show some flipping in the mechanisms of the day to day work experience through AI so that even if they're asked to do the same amount of work, it's kind of to your point, spend the work time. It probably won't diminish, but on those more meaningful tasks. So I feel like a hybrid of the three models is possible. It will have to be really deliberate, which I think, you know, talking about it in the way that you just did is a great first step.

Yeah. So look, let's take a bird's eye view at the future of talent and be a futurist for me.

Okay.

As we think about the next five to 10 years, how do you see that evolving and what mindsets and capabilities do you feel will matter the most?

Well, we've talked about one of the biggest shifts already, which is the true and deep integration of AI into everybody's job. I think that One of the other buzzwords of the past is becoming more and more important for the future, which is agility change. Agility, openness, growth, mindset, all of those concepts will be. Are already fundamentally important. And you and I know big differentiators that learning. Agility is a differentiator.

Yeah, adaptability. Just adaptability and, you know, resilience to be able to move forward with this.

Yeah, exactly. I feel like that's going to be so critical because we will need to be open to new ways of working, working, and the more that we can create a simplified infrastructure. You know, that concept that we had at McKinsey of the paradoxes of agility, that stable backbone from which you can anchor lots of different new ways of working. You know, one of the things that we're trying at Liberty and that they're doing in other places as well is this simplified job architecture so that, you know, the levels, the hierarchies are less complex and there is a. A cadence for updating job expectations anchored on skills that allows people to be flexible into the demands of the job at that moment. And so to me, that's the only future that is really super clear is that we need to be really agile, adaptable. And, you know, the people who are excited to learn new skills are the ones who will flourish.

Yeah.

The only constant is that the pace of change is going to keep accelerating exponentially.

I know, right? Hard to imagine, but true.

I mean, I can't imagine what the world looks. You know, I used to say I can't imagine what the world was before the Internet. I definitely can't imagine what the world is like before GPT. Like, everything that we do. Like, I'm like, oh, my God. I know, right? How are we doing all that we are doing? So, my friend, keeping an eye on time. I want to end with a question which is actually grounded on personal leadership. Today, so many leaders are struggling with trying to balance and do work and life and everything else that comes with it.

Right.

The rising. The targets are getting higher every year. The conditions are getting harder. And, you know, I think I'm. What I'm curious about is first, you know, from your time at the firm, and then now as a. As a mom, as a senior executive who's kind of, you know, leading so much change out there. What are some personal practices, Stacey, that help you stay grounded and flourishing, especially as you kind of help organizations and your family and your own self develop, know, navigate this high degree of uncertainty?

Yep. So it's number one, always a work in progress. And something. Some days are better than others. But the things that I go back to, to recharge are, first and foremost, family time. I love it when we're all together, whether it's a family dinner or going and. And being in nature together. I love that. I also love alone time in nature, going on walks, being by the water. So important. I am a big believer in exercise. My husband got me very addicted to the powers of, you know, the endorphin rush that comes from exercise. And I just, it helps me start the day like, just the more movement there is, the more energy and readiness.

Absolutely.

And you know, the other thing that I do, especially when things feel hard, is journaling. I love to get those worries out of my head and onto a paper because it really helps the swirl stop and, you know, focus on moving ahead positively and, and with purpose and without those distractions.

What a beautiful set of practices and what an amazing conversation. Stacy, thank you for your wisdom, thank you for your expertise, and most importantly, thank you for your friendship.

I was going to say the same. Thank you. This was so special. And thank you for what you're doing to help the work world and the world at large find flourishing. It's really very special and I'm so glad to be in your orbit.

Thank you, my friend. Be well.

Thank you. You too.

That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love, and meaning. Please consider leaving us. Review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember, happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week.

Sam.