Well-Being: The Key to Unlock High Performance with Annastiina Hintsa

I think we all know what we, quote, unquote, should be doing, right? We know what we should be eating, we know how we should be sleeping. We know what we should be doing to look after ourselves. And yet not all of us, not many of us, I argue, are actually doing it. So I joined McKinsey, you know, as a, as a junior consultant, super eager to get on. I actually really love what I did. Super passionate about, you know, the project that we were doing, the people that I was working with, the access that I was having, the travel, all of it. Exciting, thrilling. Loved it.

Hey there friends. Welcome to Happiness Squad. This is the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock your full potential by mastering the art and science of happiness. We bring on the best leading experts on these topics to help you unlock your true potential and live with more joy, health, love and meaning in your life. Your host is no other than the star combo of Ashish Kothari and Anil Ramjiani who are both on a mission to provide you with an unfair advantage, to be the masters of your experience and leaders in your industry. Get ready to be moved, challenged and enlightened on this podcast. It may change your life. Thanks for being here and joining the squad.

Hey, Happiness Squad listeners, it's great to be back with you and Ashish. We've been talking about the link between achievement, success and well being. What is that link and why is it that so many amongst us chase success, wealth at the cost of our own well being? It's almost like borrowed time, hoping that we can pay it back. But you know what, that's not really possible. Today you're going to hear from a leader named Anastina Hinsa. She's the CEO of Hinsa, the leading wellbeing coaching company who will talk us through how investing in our wellness is the unlock for high performance. You know, Hinsa has actually coached 96% of winners in Formula One, racing, Fortune 500 companies, including Long distance running athletes. Anastina is now the CEO, but she's also a mom and a philanthropist. She talks us through the Hintsa method. It's circular and at the core is knowing your identity, knowing your why, and not compromising on your well being, no matter who you are. Because better lives lead to better performers. Stay tuned till the end because her tips may not only change your day, it may actually save the start and the end. So you start strong and end stronger. Let's get started. Please join Ashish and I as we welcome Stina to the Happiness Squad. Hey, Happiness Squad listeners. It's great to have you. We are together with Ashish and Stina. Hey both, how are you doing?

Doing great, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Such a joy to have you, Sina. I'm awesome. Anel, so great to chat with you again, my dear friend.

Likewise. Ashish and I, we were together in Boulder earlier this week. I was a bit of a pinball this past week in travel and I got to spend some quality time with him and he briefly told me about Justina and I'm just like, okay, when can Friday come around so we can actually chat with you? And it's random. I'm in London, she's in London. So we've got this nice kind of international conversation happening and at least folks down the street. So I just love it when you can be so close yet so far.

That is a coincidence. Not just in London, but actually like literally across the park, which doesn't happen that often.

No, it doesn't. Well, hey, we want to get started. And Sina, I know that the work you do is absolutely incredible. We're going to talk about here shortly, but coaching Formula One drivers, high performing senior execs at Fortune 500, that's not an easy task. But you know what, before we jump into that, we'd love to get to know you a bit better and we'd love to know what does happiness mean to you and what brings you happiness.

Happiness for me is living a life that looks like me. Living a life, you know, being, being present and grateful for the things that I have, the people that I have in my life, the relationship that I have in my life, finding joy in those little moments. I have a one year old son who is an, an incredible source of joy. And personally happiness also is finding fulfillment, finding meaning and purpose in what we do. And for me personally, yeah, I drive a lot of meaning meaning from my work.

I love that meaning. Finding purpose and meaning and enjoying the moments and those we love. Right. It's so, so beautiful, Sina. And you know, you and I got to know each other I think in the midst of the pandemic, you know, quite a bit like actually Anil and I, but you know, oh my God, I still remember I was at McKinsey and one of our, one of my dear friends, Floor connected us, you know, and it's, it's been such an amazing friendship and getting to know you has been such a joy.

She's. That conversation that we had, that first zoom call that we had, completely random. I didn't know who this guy was. I didn't know why exactly we were being introduced, but that was just the most magical conversation. I remember having it like in the middle of my day, which was not great. And you just made it great. I had just this incredible burst of energy for the entire duration. It was a highlight of my pandemic.

Mine as well, my dear friend, mine as well. And look, you have an amazing personal story, you know, and that, that just filled me with like, oh my God, amazing. All the way from, you know, your growing up years, you know, traveling around with your father to working at McKinsey to now leading like the preeminent well being firm. Look at the firm. I did most of my work in well being and there is nobody like you and there's nobody like the work you all do. I mean it is really, really unbelievable. And so tell me a little bit, a little bit of that story because there is so much beauty in that.

Oh, thank you, thank you for that. That's. Oh, thank you for that introduction. So maybe a little bit. The two kind of go hand in hand, I guess. The story of the company and my story, we kind of grew up together, if you will. Hintsa is where we call ourselves a high performance coaching company. But in reality our fundamental belief is that well being leads to better performance, better life leads to better performance. My father even called success the byproduct of well being. That's sort of how far he went. Founded by My father, Dr. Akhinsa, about 20 years ago, a bit over actually in 1997 is when he first started coaching clients in Ethiopia, which is where our story starts. So my parents worked in Ethiopia. My father was an orthopedic surgeon, missionary doctor there during the 90s. And he always had two passions. One was around sports. His secret dream before he became a doctor was to be an ice hockey player. And that was sort of something that he carried throughout his entire life as kind of passion for sport and linked to that, a passion for or this kind of fascination, maybe more with, with the human, human capacity and adaptability or the capacity and adaptability of our mind and body. You know, we are just capable of so much more than we usually think. And he, he was in particular, you know, amazed by, by the performance of Ethiopian athletes, long distance runners. And that's sort of where it all started. He started working with in particular one athlete, Haile Geperselassia, who is, some of you will recognize, some of you won't, but he's arguably one of the best long and distance runners of all time. And my Father really got to know him and understand him and work together with him, trained together with him, and realized that for Haile, the foundation of his success, it wasn't just about amazing genes, high altitude training, it was, it was genuinely about living a holistic, balanced life and that as a foundation for what he called sustainable performance. And happy to go into more of that later, but, yeah, that's sort of like the genesis of it. That's sort of where we, where I grew up, where I had the privilege of growing up. And yeah, after that, I, I worked together with my father in the early 2000s, then did my own thing that did my studies, worked for McKinsey and in 2016 rejoined TINSA full time.

So talk a little bit stina, about your McKinsey, right? Your story of like how. I still remember the whole story of how you were like, wait a second, I was living this, I was chasing this dream and living a life. Even though you grew up right, with, I mean, I would say, well, being is in your blood. Right. It truly is in your blood. And even with that foundation, you find yourself not living a life with which had that. So you tell. Before I got to spoil the whole surprise, you tell about how your, you know, what that journey was like because there's so many of our listeners who are in that field. Right. Like where we're pushing their consultants, their accountants, their lawyers, their senior executives, and we're on the same path.

Yeah.

So talk a little bit about that awakening call for you.

So we all. Welping is my blood, but I think we all know what we should be doing, right? We know what we should be eating, we know how we should be sleeping, we know what we should be doing to look after ourselves. And yet not all of us, not many of us, I argue, are actually doing it. So I joined McKinsey as a junior consultant, super eager to get on. I actually really love what I did. So super passionate about the project that we were doing, the people that I was working with, the access that I was having, the travel, all of it exciting, thrilling, loved it. Also burning the candle in both ends, I found my Fitbit from the time years later and I was sleeping 4.3 hours per night, which is on average. I was already working at Hinsa at the time. So I just quickly destroyed all the evidence and hoped that nobody would ever find it.

Nobody, Nobody heard that here. Nobody heard that here, you're safe.

So I, I was, I was definitely not sort of adhering to any, any hints of philosophies or Principles. I was eating out of minibars, hotel minibars. I did do benchmarking at the time. This was like pre. The whole kind of health vibe stuff. So this was like early 2010s and stuff. So it was the best thing that I could find was Snickers bars with the peanuts. So that's basically what I lived on, really. Exercise mostly. Just, you know, from one airport terminal to another, depending on the airport, that could be a lot or very little. Not healthy. Not healthy at all. And it was in November morning or 10 years ago, 20, 2011, when I was running down the stairs, and I don't remember what happened in between, but I passed out. I rolled down the staircase, woke up at the bottom, and I vividly remember touching my head, having blood in my hair, and my first reaction was to search for my laptop. Oh, my God, it's my laptop. Okay. And it was that the moment when you realize that, like, hey, I'm actually. I'm actually seriously hurt, and I'm more concerned about my laptop than my own head. That was. That was like the real sort of. That was the wake up call. That was a wake up call for me. This. This can't be. This can't go on like this. And then actually, interestingly, the kind of next thought from there for me was I realized that not only, you know, as I heard, I realized that I wasn't very happy. I wasn't actually feeling anything at all. I wasn't shocked, I wasn't sad, but I also wasn't happy. I wasn't really feeling anything. And that was the second thing that just. This can't go on. I can't go on like this.

Yeah. And I'll just highlight a couple of things for our listeners which are really important. Number one is even though we know, look, this is at the heart of this podcast, the community community, the work we are doing in Happiness Squad. Knowing is not enough. Knowing is not even table stakes. It's about doing and fundamentally integrating these so it becomes a way of life. Right? And you had the benefit because even though you grew up, as I said, well, being is in your blood. You grew up with it. It is so easy for you to lose yourself on that chase. For many people, like for me, Sina, I came to the world of well being only in five years ago. I didn't even know, like, you knew the science. I didn't even know the science of sleep or movement. In fact, my first wellbeing book for listeners was Sina's father's book. The core, which I literally have sitting next to me, I read it front to back. That was the first book. The first chapter in my book, Hardwired for Happiness, was the wellbeing chapter. So, you know, when I had a chance, as Sina said earlier in the interview, to meet, to meet her, I was like, oh my God. Like it was like a celebrity. Like, yes, I want to meet Sinha. Like, this is amazing because I truly think it's one of the best, really one of the best well being approaches. It's very integrated.

Integrated.

But it's important now. It's really integrated. It's integrated. It's about life. It's not about, it's not about what you do, it's about how you live, right? That's, that's really what it's about. So I think that's important, right? Knowing is not enough. It's about actually really practicing. I think that's the first thing I want everybody to remember and take away. It doesn't matter what you know, it's about what you practice in what you do. And then the second is even though we think about physical, you know, mind, body, spirit, when we starve our body, when we starve our mind, there's a lot of things that start to happen. The cost is just not physical. Physically we're not. Well, once D mentioned she was numb, right? We cut off our emotional spirit. Like it literally, our bodies go numb, our emotions get numb. In fact, it becomes so much that we don't even know that we're not happy. We're just kind of muscling our way through. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, right? If aliens looked at human beings, they wouldn't call us human beings, they'll call us human doings. They would. I mean, we are just busy rushing around. We forget being. And when we are, then we can really check in holistically. So that's the other thing that happens, you know, we just become so much less, less almost 20, 30% of the humans we are. We don't feel we can't connect with others. We ourselves are not happy. We leave so much, so much of a part of us. And that's why this investment in well being is about a journey to wholeness. It truly is to journey to wholeness and to really live and achieve at our fullest potential. And that's why well being leads to success, as Stinha's father always highlighted 100%.

I think that's really, really beautifully put. And it's, it really there There is this sort of this, it's actually, it's a good time to be talking about this. You know, in, in the beginning of the year, January, February, New Year's resolutions, all this stuff. We have all these good intentions, we have all these good. We know and we have all these good intentions. But there's often a gap between that knowledge and behavior, that intention and behavior, which is the kind of, often the hardest part. And I think that's kind of bridging that gap with whatever works for you.

Stina. And in your story there's another really nugget and I want to actually go there for a minute and then Anil will take us into really understanding the core approach and what you do with clients and companies. But I want to actually go in there because I don't want the listeners to think, oh yeah, of course, McKinsey, high potential running around, hence well being. And yeah, of course you couldn't do it right. So like hence then you had this epiphany and you changed your life and everything was fine. Because there's a lot of people have that story too, which is a complete myth. It's a complete myth. So I want to highlight, I want to ask this question right today you are the CEO of one of the fastest growing companies, right? You're doing tons of amazing work and well being. You travel around the world, you're at a global company, you are a mom, you have a one year old. I know you do a lot of philanthropic efforts, you do a lot of speeches, you are evangelizing. You are one of the top evangelists in the field of well being. So you are all over, okay? You're probably doing more than you were and have more stress because you are leading a company. You have a lot of people whose livelihoods depend on you. More pressure, longer hours, higher intensity, higher impact. Talk to us a little bit about where you are now and how you shifted by integrating well being to allow you to actually be able to do all so much more. You know, because this myth of high achieving careers and well being don't go together is I think complete. It's, it's a myth. It's so many people. When I leave, then I'll be. When I'll focus on well being, it's not true. So talk a little bit about how you live that now.

So that's, that's. First of all, that is a total myth. I, um, you know, it's, it's the complete opposite. The way we see it, the way I see it, that is that wellbeing is a prerequisite for you to perform, the prerequisite for you to be able to do that job, whatever it is that you're doing. And maybe just before I, before I talk about today, maybe just to clarify one more thing. So I, I actually, I stayed at McKinsey. I stayed at the firm for another four or five years after my burnout. I went back and I figured out a way of, a way of making it work within that system. And I think that sort of for me was an important. That for me actually is an important part of the story. It is possible to combine the two. But yes, you do need to figure out your own way of making it work. And I think that sort of. And the organization also does have a role. The team also has a role. The leadership also plays a role. So I think that, that, you know, you do need both, you need the individual and organization in order to make the equation actually work in the end. But, but yes, for me, I did actually go back to McKinsey. I only joined Hindsight in 2016. And. And indeed it is a different type of pressure, but it is a high intensity job nevertheless. And I think there is, there's a part job there and then there's a part that's driven by us, you know, the people that we are and, you know, our own ambitions and our own priorities and our own willingness to, you know, how we work and how. And I think it would be a little bit naive for me to say that, you know, yeah, no, now I'm in this wellbeing company and I'm somehow immune to all of the stress or all the challenges. I think on the contrary, I'm actually more prone to it right now because I'm working on something that I deeply, deeply care about. It's actually a research, well known fact that when we have these kind of mission driven, purpose driven organizations, that's where the burnout risk is actually the highest. So as an organization, myself and even my team, our organization, I would actually say we are at a heightened risk of burnout because of the nature of the work that we do.

Yeah. So, Stina, talk to us a little bit about. So what does your routine look like? What's your typical day in the life of Stina? And how do you really invest throughout the day in your wellbeing to be able to be at your best?

The key that I learned during McKinsey already is that I need my morning. Mornings are a sacred time for me. And that was sort of like if I get My morning right. I'll get the rest of the day right. If my morning, if I start my morning by reading my emails or responding to my slack or whatnot, it's a downward spiral. So I need to get my morning right and that sort of, that for me sets the rest of the day. My mornings today with a one year old look a little bit different than they looked one year back. Even so nowadays it really is sort of like it's as any kind of parents of young children will know, it's forced wake up call at in our case exactly 6:58am which is sort of the usual time. We'll chill out with the kiddo, we'll, you know, do whatever we do. And that really is sort of it's morning time and it's a wonderful thing because you are so present in that moment. It's something that I didn't know before obviously, but you are so present because there is no other way for you to be. And you're just watching this new human being learning new things and figuring things out for the first time and their joy. It's just incredible to watch. So yeah, that's my morning from 7 to 7 to 9. I'm a mom. I do whatever my son wants to do. Usually it's actually vacuum cleaning.

It's a very soothing way.

Yeah.

And then what happens after? What is the rest of your day like?

Actually still from 9 hours I can't really start with meetings. I need a little bit time to kind of plan my day. So that's another kind of key learning for me. I start my days like you know what other people see. They will probably think that I start my days really late because I start around 10am is like when I take my first meetings, I take the first hour to really kind of what are, what's the one thing that I really need to get done today? You know, what will, what will success look like today? I'll try and fit in at least one walking meeting per day. That's another thing. That's not a KPI I always meet but that's sort of something that I strive. I found it's an easy way to get in those steps that completely plummeted during the pandemic. But it's also an easy way to keep yourself energized because at least for me I get that afternoon slump a little bit in energy. So that's, that's another kind of key area for me. And then yeah, happy to talk through my entire day if you want to. But I think that you might find that a little bit boring too?

No, I loved it. I think those are beautiful, right? Those two or three things you highlighted. Number one, boundaries. Most of us don't actually, you know, it's so powerful because if you don't set boundaries, if you don't prioritize yourself, the world's not going to prioritize you. So really, really important tip, right, for listeners. Find your boundary and find your way to really be there. Look, we are not born to work. When work is our calling. That is what we can do as well. But life is so much more than that, even in that realm. So family always matters. Find time for yourself. Find time for your family. Set hard boundaries. The second thing Stina highlighted was don't start the day with an email. Once you start with an email, you lose it. You are so present in the morning. Preserve and protect your mornings. And this notion of movement and walking meanings, right? Energy. When we sit, all the research clearly points sitting is called the new smoking because the effect on our metabolic heart rates, our metabolism, the effect on just, you know, how our bodies burn fat, our scary, scary, if you will, in terms of. And we sit 10, 12, 14 hours. So even like little bits of movement into our day to create energy to be able to really be able to do more but really take care of our health.

I can give a simple tip for the email. My sort of like, it's usually easier when you tie it into something. So my kind of like simple tip is I don't look at my cell phone before I've taken a shower. That at least gives me time to make sure that there is one step that needs to happen before at minimum I get my shower time and then I look at my emails if I really have to.

Beautiful.

Over to you, Anil.

No, I think just on the back of that, something somebody once shared with me was when you pick up your phone in your room when you wake up and you look at either your emails or you look at your WhatsApp or your iMessage, you're almost inviting potentially 20 people into your bedroom before you've even had a chance to get out of bed and stretch. And it's like, is that really how you want to start your day? It's like, no. So on the back of that, I absolutely agree with both of you. It's such a brilliant idea just to wait. Give yourself that time and that space to step in. I also just want to say to both of you, I think at some point we need to do a podcast on demystifying like McKenzie, because just hearing your stories of how McKenzie was and how. But for the better. Because if you think about each of you have actually formed better habits and boundaries, as you each have said, to really look after your own, well beings, to look after your families and to really improve your life for the better. So I think that's absolutely brilliant. So I do want us to shift gears and I want to talk now about Hinso. And so for our listeners out there who are massive Formula one fans, I'm going to raise my hand and say I am one of them. Here's a stat for you. So 96% over the past nine seasons, 96% of all Formula One races have been won by a Hinsa supported driver. Now, I'm not going to leak which drivers there are. If you go to the website, you'll see a few of them. However, what I'd love to hear from you is you've coached some of the most well known F1 drivers, Fortune 500 leaders. What would you say or how could you articulate to our listeners the foundation of the hidden style approach?

Very short. Better life leads to better performance. That's what we believe. Our mission is to help individuals live a better life and as a byproduct, as a consequence of that more holistic, more balanced life, succeed in whatever it is that they do, be it, you know, leading a Fortune 500 company or be it, you know, being a Formula One driver or, you know, being a mom. So I think that's, that's sort of, that's, that's in very short what we believe. It's, it's a system. It's a framework that was originally developed by my father, Dr. Akhinsa, as she's called it earlier. I think it's a very intricated model. It consists of six different elements of well being. And at the foundation, at the very kind of center of it, imagine a little circle. The center of that circle you have what we call the core, which is really your sense of identity. Do you know who you really are? As in who are you not? What do you do? And to us, the shitty point. But who are you? Do you know what you want? What is it that really drives you, gives you meaning in life? What is the kind of purpose that, that you strive for and then finally are in control of your life? Are you able to actually live, spend your time and energy in accordance to those values? And I think those are sort of like that. That's the core. That's what defines sort of the the bedrock and the foundation of the philosophy. And it's also your source of inner motivation. Because once you are able to link some of those kind of habits and things that we think about when we do think about well being and, you know, around that circle we have six elements of, you know, sleep and recovery, nutrition, physical activity, biomechanics, mental energy and general health. All interconnected or all interlinked. So, you know, you impact one of them, you impact all of them. It's a multiplication, it's not an addition, it's not a sum. All of those are driven by that core. You know, you should be able to link all of those elements to that core, to your why find your why, you know, why are you. Why, you know, when you were struggling for the motivation, trying to find that sort of bigger, bigger, deeper, you know, why. Do I really want to do this?

No, it totally does. I mean, if I can imagine. And this is, I mean, pardon my ignorance here. When I, When I listen to Formula one drivers, I sometimes hear them. I'm like, the arrogance that comes out of their mouths or just, I'm like, are they really like that? I'm like, well, they probably are because they need to be confident. They need to, like, have no fear for what they do. And I guess maybe I'd love to understand from your and your team's experience, like, what are some tips that you have incorporated by helping them understand? Like, okay, you can talk, you can do what you do, train as you, well, race or top performing CEOs, right? What are some of those tips that you help them understand and integrate into their lives so that they do exactly as you said, live better lives in order to be better performers.

Are you enjoying the show so far? Let me ask you a few questions before going back. Have you ever wondered why so many of us struggle with stress, anxiety and burnout and feel stuck in life? Heck, maybe you're going through this right now. Well, the reason for this lies in the evolutionary biology of our brains, which are hardwired for fear. It's part of the reason why our team named this podcast Happiness Squad. It serves as a reminder that happiness is what really matters and that we are in this together. And that is why we are so excited to share with you a resource to help you on your journey. One of our hosts, Ashish Guattari, launched a book, Hardwired for Happiness, and it is a 1Amazon bestseller. When you get access to this book, you will discover nine secular practices that can change your life and are backed by scientific evidence from Psychology and neuroscience. Learn how you can integrate Hardwired for Happiness practices in every part of your life to unlock your best self regardless of how busy you are. Shift from knowing to doing to being with a range of journaling, meditation and group coaching exercises and so much more. Go to www.happinessquad.combook to get access. Right now we also have bonuses on the page that you don't want to miss. Once again, www.happinesssquad.com book and now back to the show.

Before Stinna answers that. Can I just say one thing?

Absolutely.

Covered the core of this approach. And I just want to kind of echo back to the listeners. There were a couple of things that truly differentiate in my mind. And by the way, when I was at McKinsey, I had Stina team come and work with our Denver office. McKinsey, you know, a lot of McKinsey offices in Europe work very closely with Stena to unlock high, you know, human performance. Right. We are all corporate athletes performing, doing really amazing stuff. But this notion of core who you are, right. Who are you is so, so central. And we bonded over that because as you know, that is at the heart of The Hardwired for Happiness 9 practices. Self awareness that who you are is so important. And by the way, is oftentimes what's missing from so many other coaches, so many other companies advocating well being, you know, because they focus on, even when they focus on habit formation, they're focusing on like the cerebral habit stacking. Do this, do that, do that. They are not going down to the core of who you are. Why do you want it? Why do you want to be better? Right? And by really being there, I think that is really powerful about that approach and I wanted to just circle back on that. And the other one was intention. You can know who you are, but then you can go live your life completely incoherent with who you are and where do you want to go. So this notion of intentions and how you're living your life, which is the other really important aspect of that approach. Right. That Stinha takes with and the company and the coaches take with their clients, I think is really important. So Stina, please answer the question around, you know, things that clients do. But I do wanted to highlight those two points because I think we can brush over them. But that's what makes your approach so distinctive in my mind.

I'm going to kind of actually combine the thing, the two things that you both just now said. So. So one of the things that we do talk about with our drivers, who, by the way, are actually, you know, they're. The youngest drivers we work with are 12 to 13 years old. That's how young we start working with them. And it's. And, hey, if you look at. If you look at the Formula one drivers, most of them are relatively young. You know, they're in their early 20s. So it is a. It is a pretty crazy world that they're thrown into. If you think about it, you're in your early 20s, you're suddenly, you know, making millions. You get tons of, you know, millions of millions of fans around the world. You're flying around the world. Everyone wants a piece of. You have your. Kind of. You have your team, you have your management, you have your sponsors. You have the. And then you should be, you know, Racing. Yeah, racing with 20 other cars on the track, and you're alive on the line. It's. It's a. It's. It's a crazy, crazy scene. But the question that we ask these guys is, who are you when you're no longer a Formula one driver? Because at the same time, that whole craziness, that whole identity can be very, very, very easily taken away from you if you follow any of the kind of, you know, your seat, every race you are up to losing, you might. You might lose your seat. You might lose your seat in the next one. After every season you're there is like, we call it a roulette or a circus that starts around in the autumn. And, you know, it's still kind of going on when you. When you determine who's driving for. And it's a very, very unpredictable and uncertain, insecure environment almost. And that sort of. That creates. That puts a lot of weight knowing who you really are when you're no longer making sure that your identity is not tied to something that can be so easily taken away from you, not tied to just your accomplishment or your work, which it often is, actually, for all of us, not just the Formula One drivers, but equally our CEOs or our. Any of us, frankly, which. Yeah. So that, I think, is one of the most important questions that we actually work on them with. And now I can't remember what else you asked me anymore.

No, no, no. But I think, well, let's almost incorporate it, because I think what this is. The beauty of what we're talking about is the examples that maybe you can share. And I think maybe if you're able to incorporate an individual transformation story, or if we want to shift away to a company transformation story, like how did you incorporate these tips, these techniques in order to create that transformation. Because as you said, speaking to a 12, 13 year old, as you just did and said, look, you may or may not be on the racehorse next race next year, let alone a senior executive, you may or not may or may not be at the helm of this company. How do you maybe share an example that can help us understand how that transformation can happen and how they can benefit by knowing who they are and.

What their intention is now almost parse both. Yeah, tell an individual one and a client one, because they're both actually quite relevant for our listener.

Absolutely.

I was thinking about going back even to sort of the origins of Pensa and how this ties into how my father originally came up with those questions and came up with that notion of, like, why is this even important? It was actually. He was working with Haile, the long distance runner. And it was around Athens Olympics when Haile started having problems with his Achilles tendon. And it turned out that he had to be operated. And now remember, so this is arguably the world's best long distance runner, and he's about to be operated on his Achilles tendon, which means that his career could be over in that after that operation, anything goes wrong, it's over, game over. So he flies to Finland to be operated by my dad. And my dad and his team are prepping the operating theater, getting ready for it. Everyone is kind of no pressure, no pressure. And my dad's kind of nervous. Hyla sees it and he, he goes to my dad and he's like, doctor, Chill out, it's just running. And my dad's Jacks, you have Dr. Chill out, it's just running. That's it. That was sort of like, that's where my father was like, wait, it just hit him. It's like, this is the world's best runner about his career is at stake. He tells the operating surgeon to chill out because it's just running. So that's when he realized that for Haile, running was his passion. It was a huge part of his identity, but it wasn't his sole identity. He was in equal parts a father, beautiful family, a businessman. He used to joke that, you know, he had this. He had a building that was six seconds high. That's how long it takes to drop a stone from the top of the building for the stone to drop. And he was, I remember actually, you know, driving with Haile in Ethiopia in his car and there would be people knocking on his windows and he would roll down the window and he would Have a chat. He was an active member of the community. He was promoting young athletes, working together, you know, with the Ethiopian Olympic team, to, you know, raise the next generation. Running was a huge passion of his, but it was only one part of his identity. And I think that was a huge lesson for my father. He realized that, yes, you know, what we do, our work, it can be an incredible source of fulfillment, passion, a huge part of our identity, but it's very dangerous when it's the only leg that we stand on. So we do need other pillars to fight our identity. And there will be. Yeah, that was sort of the important lesson for Haile. For my father, I think it's an important lesson for all of us.

Yeah. So beautiful, right? That was the story that really stood out for me, too, in that book, when I read it. And so many people and I see it with corporate executives, their whole identity is, I'm the CEO or I'm the CFO or I'm a consultant. And oftentimes we will do anything, work harder, longer, to protect it. To protect it. And, you know, there's this beautiful book by Arthur Brooks where he talks about. It's called From Strength to Strength. And it's a journey that we all take, right? Going from fluid intelligence to crystalline intelligence. And our fluid intelligence fails us as we get older. It takes us much longer to do things with athletes. You know, the strength and kind of the energy, the life, you know, it starts to actually, you know, we really need to be at the top. And at some point very early, Even in late 20s and 30s, we start to lose it. But if that is our identity, that is a big problem. It makes it really hard to shift away into another intelligence. And the kind of work we do that actually continues to grow with age. It's the. It's the crystallized intelligence. It's the wisdom. It's our ability to integrate. And that's so important.

Yeah, Athletes have to retire. They have to face the consequences of kind of tying their identity around their profession a lot sooner than most of us, which is why I think that's. That's a. That's a good starting point. My. In concrete terms, I mean, like, the way we've done this with drivers, one of the questions that we also ask them, especially, you know, when they're in the beginning of their career is, or before all the fame, before all the kind of. All the fans and, you know, all the success, write down, who are the people? Who are your true friends? Who are the people that really matter to you? And when you are in the whirlwind of everything going around, you go back to that piece of paper, go back to that note, look at the names that you wrote down there, because that's. Yeah, those are your true friends and those are the people that you should be still, you know, spending your time and energy.

I was going to add to this. So this morning, as I left my home for the airport, I was thinking to myself, you know, what's my purpose here? You know, I always, you know, you always went like, what's the meaning of life? Why am I here? What am I doing? And I was thinking to myself, like, you know, Tim Cook's purpose, you know, was to be CEO of Apple. You know, Steve Jobs is to find and, you know, establish Apple and create the iPhone. I'm like, thinking about this, and as I hear the two of you speak, it's like, you know, Lewis Hamilton, Tom Brady. That's what they did. That was their career. That's not who they are. That's not the reason why they're here. That's not the. So our careers are not our identity. You almost have to strip it. And we chatted with a friend of mine a couple of weeks back, and it's like, you know, it's like naked ambition. Like, strip it all back to who you are. Do you know who you are and why you're doing what you're doing? Does that resonate with your identity? Because if there's a disconnect, clearly you're not going to show up as your authentic self. And I really admire all of these people. I think that's their superpower. Right. If they. If they weren't showing up as their authentic self, I doubt they'd be as successful in there, whether they're winning or not. And so I do have to applaud you in terms of how you both have articulated. It's really important that people understand who they are and what they control versus what they don't.

Yeah, that's actually an important one, too. What do you control and what do you not control? I think that question is twofold. There are surprisingly many things that we can actually control or influence that we. Surprising many decisions that we can make during the day. Once we kind of. I think for me personally, one of the things that was most important during. And we see this with a lot of the CEOs that we work with, especially we have this mindset or our notion of it's just always been this way and, you know, we never even stopped to question. So personally, I Never stopped to question that. I, you know, I just took it for granted that of course I have to be at the office 8am and of course I have to work until, you know, the client asks for this. Of course I need to deliver it by, you know, they asked for it 9pm of course I need to deliver it by 9am tomorrow morning. Like no questions asked because the client asked. Of course I need to deliver and I never even stopped to question it. And I think that was sort of just took it for granted and it's, it's kind of. Or, yeah, I think if we do stop the question a little bit more, you know, really, do they really need this or even if. Did you even ask if they need it by 9am or did you just assume that they needed this or they wanted it? I think that sort of, that for me around the control was kind of big. Realizing that I actually do control a lot more things that I than I thought. But then equally, you know, knowing what we don't control, there are a lot of things happening around us that we just don't have any, any power over. I think Pandemic was a pretty, pretty big lesson on that for all of us. It is, it is knowing the difference.

Yeah. You know, and even for those who are so customer client centric that it is kind of anathema to question the client, you know, because, you know, I had several of those. Right. That I, you know, we are a very client, we were a very client centric organization when we were at McKinsey. I always, I always said to the team, okay, so I get it that we want to deliver what the client asked. Do you really feel that's your best work that you're doing in that stage? Is that your best. They're not looking for number of pages, they're not looking for the number of words. They're looking for insightful ideas. They're looking for ideas that will help them create breakthrough impact. Are you really in that mental state when you're like half sleepy trying to muscle your way through? Is that really, is that really. Are you really delivering? Because if the answer is not, go have that conversation with the client to say, I really care about your success. I want to give you the best ideas. Hey, you know, when, when can I do this to you by? Right? What is a real deadline and what is not really a real deadline?

Exactly, exactly. But it takes a lot of courage to have that conversation.

Yes. And a lot of psychological safety around, Right? Yeah. So, Sina, tell us about a client story because Look, I mean, there are so many client organizations. You know, stress, anxiety, burnout is at an all time high. You know, we are in the midst of the largest set of layoffs in a long while. Everybody's cutting back. And I know wellbeing budgets often are the first to be cut. You know, it is discretionary spend. It is not directly related to revenue. Wrong, completely wrong. But talk to us about a client example of a company that you have worked with where the investments in wellbeing and start with kind of even how that started and how the investments in health well being allowed them to really unlock the best in individuals, the best in teams, and frankly then the best as an organization.

Oh my gosh. Which one? Where should I start there? I think there are a number of different organizations that I could pick here. First of all, there are organizations that are actually doing a lot of really good work in this in wellbeing and that have continued to do good work even during the pandemic, even starting during the pandemic, and continue to do it even right now when we're going through a tougher time economically as well. One of the organizations that we work with is a and sorry for not being able to name names, but one of the organizations that we work with is a global organization in consumer goods, 40,000 people globally, around the world. And we started working with them actually during the pandemic. Their CEO realized and the chro realized that hey, this is obviously in the pandemic. Well being as a topic made its way up on the CEO agenda in a way that it never had before. I didn't see that before. I think there was a very, very stark shift. But something that set this organization apart was that they, from the get go, they took a very, very ambitious view as to how they wanted to do it. So they started thinking about it on multiple different levels already from the beginning. So really thinking about, hey, what can we do as leadership to role model behavior change? What can we do as leadership to actually create that environment for our teams where they can pass it forward? They did something specific for line managers. Huge focus online managers realizing that they were actually in that this company was growing during COVID by the way, so super fast growth during COVID And the line managers were the ones that were actually bearing the brunt. So they had suddenly their glassdoor scores dropped. Sudd everyone was. There were cases of burnout shooting up. It was super stressful time. In particular, the ones that were sort of caught in between the two layers, the kind of frontline staff plus the bosses in the headquarters and they did a very centralized effort to offer essentially coaching to all of their line managers, which was I think a really bold, really cool move. And then they made sure that there was something, there was access for everyone so that everyone had access to some sort of well being initiatives, Some sort of well being. It was a combination of, you know, education and inspiration, but also, you know, coaching based on need. So at different times, you know, we actually need that human to human interaction that helps you unlock whatever it is that is meaningful for you. So I think that's that for me. We've been now working with them. Well, we're still working with it started working within the pandemic. So it's our third year. We're super excited. They are going strong, growing strong. And obviously some of the impacts that we're seeing is definitely biggest impact that we are seeing are definitely actually in the line manager front. So we are seeing. Once I started coaching, 3/4 have actually continued coaching. They have continued running sort of programs also for their teams. Scores are improving. Yeah, I think that's sort of one of the more inspirational examples that I can think of right now.

You talked about scores, I want you to say a little bit because I see so many companies that have well being efforts and they're not integrated. You know, let's give everybody a mindfulness app, let's give everybody a step meter, nutrition, et cetera, et cetera. But you mentioned we measured progress. Talk a little bit about the importance of data driven well being rather than I'm just going to launch a well being effort, we're going to give cooking classes and we're going to do all this other stuff. Talk to us a little bit about that because I know data is at the heart of how you all drive transformations. I'm pretty sure played a pivotal role for that client.

So two questions that I always ask our clients and usually they don't know how to answer it in the beginning. What does success actually look like for you when you think about this welcoming program? And how do you measure it? And then based on that, we determine what data we actually need to be looking at because that will be different for this particular organization. The data that was most important for us to look at was actually the stress scores. So individuals at risk in manager level, that's the most important metric that we were following. And voluntary turnover at manager level. Second important metric that we're following in another organization, completely different. The metric that matter for them, diversity and inclusion, that was the number one that they were looking at in another one. It was about recruitment, retention in a nuclear power plant that we worked in. It was about safety incidents. Very, very different. We worked with surgeons. Again, safety incidents. It's very much dependent on why is well being. The metric that we should be looking at is dependent on why wellbeing is actually relevant for you and your organization. And that will be different depending on your strategy and depending on what you do. And I think that that's the link that a lot of organizations still struggle to make or haven't thought about in the beginning. They'll be thinking like, oh, well, you know, we're doing this program and it's hugely successful because we covered, you know, X percent of the organization or we gave everyone a Fitbit, or we did. We did webinars where we had this and this many participants. So what? That's a leading indicator. That's a leading injury. That's a participation metric. You're looking at coverage and penetration. Those are participation metrics. Yes, they're important and they're important to understand that you might in the best cases, in some organizations, what we're doing is we're doing actually comparison studies where we have, hey, we coached this part of the organization, we didn't coach that part of the organization. And we see what the difference is, given that everything else is the same. And that's actually quite telling. You will see sort of, well, especially when it comes to scores such as absenteeism. Those are the ones that tend to show. But really, why wellbeing for you? Why wellbeing for you? Why is wellbeing important for your organization? And then tying it to the business metrics.

Thank you, Anel. Bring us home, my dear friend.

No, for sure. I mean, I just want to say thank you for that because I think a lot of companies think that. I love how you said it earlier. It's like you hand them a band aid, you're handing them an app and hoping that it ticks the box or a Fitbit, and it ticks the box. And I think it's going those two three steps deeper to really understand how data can inform progress. And, you know, it's not just evaluating people based on a survey. It's actually saying, hey, this is what success looks like. This is where we want the company to be. And Ashish, you've mentioned it previously, you know, it's. Human beings aren't machines like, you can replace a computer, you can replace a machine, you can service it, you can run KPIs on it to make sure it's underproductive, overproductive, or at base level, human beings are completely different. And so I think it's really important that we take what you just said and we incorporate it into how we bring wellbeing into our lives individually or at the corporate level in order to maximize our performance and our productivity.

No, it's completely the same way as we would work with an athlete. We start with the initial diagnostic. We start by understanding where they are, what their baseline is. And we also start with the question of what does success look like? What does success look like for you? If like success for me looks like I keep my seat this year or success for me looks like I want to be on the podium this year. And that's what we then start working towards. That's the kind of bigger goal, the bigger why again that we tie it to. And then you look at, okay, fine in terms of your physical activity, in terms of your VO2 max, in terms of your nutrition, in terms of your sleep, these are the metrics that we follow. But that sort of, that's levels down. And the same way as we would be then looking at an organization, yeah, we would start with an initial diagnostic. We would start by looking and mapping out the entire organization, identifying potential risk groups, identifying areas where we might, you know, might be needing to make an intervention. But then at the same time really thinking about what is your organization's why. And I think that's, it's a very similar, similar method both sort of individually and organizationally if you will.

Well, I'm going to add the plug here. Nike, as they say, athlete asterisks. If you have a body, you're an athlete. So whether you're a Formula one driver, a long distance runner or a high performing CEO, cfo, CTO or multinational, you're an individual, you have to look after yourself no matter what. And I think just on the back of that, if I may ask you, as we part ways, are there 1, 2, 3, 3 tips that you would like to share with our listeners? Because it's one thing to know, it's another thing to do, but it's really important to be, and I'd love to know what they can incorporate today from you and integrate it into their life to maximize their own potential.

I'm going to start with a tip that's not, not necessarily easier, but what is your why? Start with your why? Think about your why. I think that's, that would be the first one that I start with really. I know it's a difficult question, but it has a huge impact. So that, that's what I would start with. And then if you want sort of concrete tips, I can give you my sort of like my, my two favorites. One, the first one is when your morning, win the morning, win the day. You know, start your morning, whatever it is. Take your 10 minutes. If you can't get more, take your 10 minutes to breathe, to be and to, you know, identify. What are the 1, 2, 3 different things that will make you happy today that will make you feel accomplished today. What are things that you actually need to get done? And then the second tip that is kind of similar but different. Find a detachment ritual, whatever it is that works for you. So in terms of mental recovery, we know that detachment is one of the most powerful things that we can do, has a huge impact. You know, really, really think twice before opening Your email at 10:00pm if you re. If you don't have to because that will, you know, destroy your detachment. So when you finish work, when you put a pin on the day, think of, you know, what is, what's the way for you to do it very physically, even, you know, especially working from home, the boundaries between, you know, work and life or I actually don't like that, but, you know, the boundaries are being blurred. And personally, the way I do it, if I, when I'm, when I'm working from, irrespective of when I'm working from home, but especially when I come from the office, is before I open that home door, I spend three seconds thinking, asking myself the question, five seconds asking myself the question, who do I want to be when I open that door? I put a pin on my day. Who do I want to be when I finish my workday? Who's the person, who's the person that I want to be? And that's sort of, that for me is my detachment ritual. Find yours, whatever it is that will mark the end of your workday and the beginning of the afternoon, evening, or time that you're going to spend with you, yourself, your family, your loved ones doing the things that matter the most.

So, so beautiful. Thank you, Sina. This was such an amazing conversation, such rich set of tips. I loved it. When your mornings detachment ritual, so powerful, right? Really truly detach from, from your work. Oh my God. Like I think starting of the day and the end of the day, I think if folks, you know, did that.

That would already be huge.

That would already be amazing. Amazing. Thank you.

Such I'm going to jump in on that one. Say win your mornings and win your nights like, you know, start strong, end stronger.

Boom.

I love it. Well, hey, as Asha said, it's been an absolute pleasure. Cena, thank you so much for sharing what you have and look forward to catching up with you again in the near future.

I'll see you tomorrow in Hamster tv.

I'll be waving.

Thank you.

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Sam.