Why Workplace Well-being Should Be A Strategic Priority with Jen Fisher

Well being should not and is not a benefit, but it can start as a program. I very rarely talk about it as a benefit because well being shouldn't be a benefit. Well being should be an outcome of well designed work.

Welcome to the Happiness Squad podcast. Your weekly dose of practical tips and inspirations to help you operate and at your fullest potential by integrating the science of flourishing into how you live, work and lead. In each episode, we will share insights, tips and stories from leading experts, company executives, and flourishing solution providers that you can implement right away to make happiness your competitive edge and find more success, joy, health, love and meaning in everything you do. Hello friends. I'm Ashish Kothari, the CEO of Happiness Squad and welcome to our podcast where we share practical tips to make flourishing your competitive edge and help you achieve stellar performance powered by well being, not at its expense. I'm on a mission to help a billion people not just experience happiness, but use it as a tool to unlock their fullest potential. If you're interested in learning how to make happiness your competitive edge, make sure to follow me on LinkedIn and subscribe to our newsletter@happinesssquad.com today I'm thrilled to host Jen Fisher, a true pioneer in workplace well being and human sustainability. As Deloitte's first Chief Wellbeing Officer, Jen has been at the forefront of transforming how organizations support employee well being. She's a TEDx speaker and co author of Work Better Together, a book that explores building strong relationships to maximize well being and performance. In our conversation today, Jenna and I dive into why workplace well being is no longer a luxury, but a necessity. We discuss how the pandemic reshaped our views on mental health at work, the role of leadership in fostering well being, and the challenges of redesigning work to support human sustainability. Jen shared personal insights from her journey at Deloitte and practices she has integrated into her life that help her and others be at their best. These include things like the power of setting boundaries, the importance of mental health conversations, and the need for scalable programs that address the real factors impacting well being like workload and human connection. If you're ready to rethink well being and create lasting impact in your workplace, stay tuned for this inspiring discussion. Jen, it's so lovely to have you with us on the Happiness Squad podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Absolutely. It is so good to finally be here. It's been a long time coming, but here we are.

You know, we've been talking for a long, long while. I think it's almost been two, two and a half years, you know, because we've been all this on a similar path. Your story so spoke to me what you care about. Right. You were the Chief wellbeing officer at Deloitte. I was leading a lot of our wellbeing efforts at McKinsey before I decided to leave. You've just left Deloitte and are starting something of your own. But before we go to the forward, I want to actually go to the origin story a bit and I want to hear Jen. And by the way, we just friends for those who are listening. Literally, I think. So we were just talking before. And you started at Deloitte in June of 2001. I started at Deloitte in like Jan of 2001. And then, you know, you clearly, you know, you spent a lot of time there. I was basically booted out in a year and a half. But. But anyway, I want to hear about your journey. How did you. A consultant who joined Deloitte right along the way, became their chief wellbeing officer and really, you know, decided to dedicate your life to this topic.

Yeah, absolutely. So, as you said, I did join Deloitte in June of 2001 and I actually joined in our marketing organization, which is my background and education. And so people are always like, well, how'd you get from marketing to. To well being? And interestingly, the story will all kind of circle back around. But I will say that marketing is a great skill set when you're in the wellbeing field and you need to convince people that they need what you're selling. So perhaps there's a reason for everything. But like I said, I started in marketing and worked directly with many of our businesses and industry industries on their marketing and communications plans, both internally and externally. I did that for several years before I was tapped to work with our then chief operating officer. I became his chief of staff, he went on to become the CEO and I stayed as his chief of staff for a number of years until he left the organization. And at that point I did go back into marketing. But the truth is I was truly like, burnt out at that time with all of the knowledge and information that I knew about the inner workings of the firm. Everybody kept asking me, like, what do you want to do? And I had no idea. You know, it was kind of like, who is Jen Fisher? Because I had just spent so much time as the chief of staff to somebody kind of. I woke up every day thinking about what it was they wanted and what it was they needed and who they were not who I was or what I wanted and needed out of my life. And that's a function of the role. I probably would do it differently if I. If I had the chance to go back and do it today. But. But I think everything points you in the direction. And so coming out of that role, I went back into marketing. I was working directly for the chief marketing officer at Deloitte at the time. But truly, you know, she came to me one day, we were meeting, and her exact words were, you're struggling. You need to take some time off from work. And I was like, whoa, okay, I'm not showing up as well as I thought that I was. And those words at the time, because she was right. But also, like many, I think I processed those words as failure. You know, you're not doing good enough. You don't belong here. But the truth is, is that's not what she was telling me at all. What she was telling me is, you've given so much to your work and to this organization. It's time to take a step back and take advantage of the benefits and opportunities that the firm provides to you and focus on, you know, getting yourself healthy and well. Because she saw something in me. She saw potential, and she wanted to help me move from where I was, which was really a complete step state of burnout, which I was in denial at the time, to, you know, a much more thriving life and much more thriving career. But you certainly don't see that until, you know, it's in the rearview mirror, if you will. So I did listen to her. I took some time off. I got myself healthy, and, well, I was really struggling with, you know, anxiety and depression and so really focusing on my mental health, but also the interconnectedness with my physical health. And I think doing that is what really reignited, and I'm going to say reignited, but reignited my passion for health and wellbeing. And the reason I say that is, growing up, I was an athlete. You know, I prided myself that no matter how busy I was, I got to the gym for an hour a day. And I bring that up because through the process of struggling with my mental health, I realized that there was much more to this topic and this. This thing that we called wellbeing, that it wasn't just about getting to the gym an hour a day. As a matter of fact, there's probably some days where going to the gym for an hour that day was the worst thing that I probably could have done for myself and that I needed to do something else to. To take better care of myself, perhaps get more sleep or, you know, do some meditation or spend time with friends and family. And so, you know, that really reignited, but also opened my eyes to this broader topic of well being and well being in the workplace in a way that I felt like, wow, we're just not talking about this and we probably need to be. But when you're struggling, you feel like you're going through it alone. And so I came back to work. I met with that same leader who, by the way, is still a very dear friend and mentor. And I told her that I thought I was going to resign, that, you know, I really had kind of reignited this passion. I wanted to help people, you know, not get to where I got. Not burnout, not struggle and suffer in order to have a meaningful and purposeful career. And she once again said, you know, kind of came through and said to me, well, you're not going anywhere, because if you need this, there's a lot of other people that need it too. And so I tell this story because that's the kind of leader that we all need to be, and it's the kind of leader that we all want, right? Somebody that kind of creates, sees who we are, believes in our potential, creates that path, creates that Runway. And so I really do give her credit for kind of having this vision that I couldn't see. I know I wanted to focus on health and wellbeing and helping people, but I didn't think I could do it in the four walls of delight, because we had great benefits and resources for people, but there wasn't an existing role. And I had no idea that I could create a role for myself until somebody told me, you know, put together your business case and let me see how I can help you, and let's see how we can get this done. And so that's what I did. You know, she created this base for me. She said, put together, spend some time, put together this business case and let's review it. And I did that with her. And then I was able to meet with our CEO and our chief talent officer at the time. And I think I got really lucky because they all bought into it really quickly. And I. But I think the important thing there is for leaders, perhaps leaders that are struggling with making well being a strategic priority, is that there's still, unfortunately, this belief that well being and high performance are mutually exclusive. And the truth is, is that well being fuels high performance, especially inside of organizations like Deloitte or organizations that Are, you know, kind of hard charging and high performing without well being, truly sub optimizing everything that the organization stands for, but especially your bottom line. So absolutely get into more about me. But that's kind of the origins of my story and how I got into, you know, the role, if you will, at Deloitte of Chief wellbeing Officer.

I love that story, Jen, of how, you know, you went from marketing chief of staff to well being. And I think we were able to really build that business case to be able to get into that role and not just do well being for yourself, but really figure out how to kind of support And I can't think of a better place than consulting to do it because, you know, at the end as consulting firms, I spent 17 years at McKinsey People is all you got. And I think people pay us to be at our cognitive best, you know, not necessarily to break stones, not maybe the physically best, but you know, emotionally, cognitively be at our best. And really, I mean, if there is any place you can measure a direct impact around, if our people are at our best, we're going to see it. So it's fantastic that you got a chance to actually really hone and learn and practice. And so there's so much that we can learn from that. You wrote a book in Work Better Together and you really highlighted right. How well being is no longer a nice to have but a must have as part of any thriving organization. So talk to me a little bit around the research you did around why wellbeing became such a big focus. And you know, really, you hold that well being should be a critical focus for organizations.

Yeah, I mean it, it absolutely should. And it, you just said it. Right. If you employ human beings, you have to care about their well being and it isn't. You're right. I mean, it's not, it can't be a nice to have because if people are struggling or if people aren't feeling well, if they're not excited or engaged and you know, the book that we wrote, Work Better Together was really around relationships and having friends at work. If we, you know, continue down a path where this isn't supported, we already know that the path we're on from a work perspective isn't sustainable. The rates of burnout are so high, the rates of disengagement are so high. I mean, things are in many ways worse than they've ever been. And there's probably many, many reasons for that that the, you know, that the data shows. But we're at a pivotal Point. And I think the pandemic, in many ways you could say, or I think a lot of us believed was a silver lining when it came to workplace well being because it created a, you know, we were all standing on the same ground right there. All of the coping mechanisms, whether they were healthy or unhealthy, that we were using pre pandemic to allow us to continue to show up. And to your point, you know, depending on where we were, like, were we at our cognitive best? Maybe, maybe not. But we had coping mechanisms. We believed that they were working because they were kind of what we'd always done, right? They were the acceptable norms. And then along comes the pandemic and that is stripped from all of us. And then we're all kind of standing on even ground going, holy crap, like what do we do now? And I think that that was when there was kind of this first realization that we need to do more to support people and to support all people because everybody was realizing and recognizing that they were struggling, you know, not just certain populations or certain people in the workplace. And so I think that was the first time that we really saw a lot of business leaders like that light bulb turning on and then subsequently making investments and having these real conversations and allowing people's lives to coincide or seep into their work in very vulnerable, accepted ways that perhaps would have never shown up before when we walked through the physical doors of an office. Sadly, though, and I'm going to get to. I know this is a long answer. I think where we are right now is I think wellbeing is at risk. And the reason that I say this is because you are seeing a pullback in these investments. And the reason you're seeing a pullback in these investments is because a lot of the things that were done during the pandemic, while they were well intended, are no longer or just aren't having the impact that leaders believe that they would have. And so they're looking at these things saying, well, there's not an ROI on it or what do you want me to do? Everybody's still telling me they're burnt out and everything about work sucks. And so my answer to that is it's not a time to walk away from well being. This is a signal that well being is more important than ever. But there's an and. Right. Like we need the right programs, tools and resources that's foundational, that's almost non negotiable for thriving businesses. But what we have yet to unlock and to really solve is the and and so we know that the things that are having a significant impact on people's well being at work is not the fact that they don't have a meditation app. It's that they're overworked, they're overwhelmed. There's, you know, lack of clarity, lack of direction in mission and purpose. There's people are feeling disconnected from their work. There aren't strong relationships in the workplace or those relationships are kind of falling by the wayside because things have become so task oriented. These are the types of things that are really eroding wellbeing at work. And they're more related to flow of work and design of work versus what tools and resources do you have. And so then people don't take advantage of the tools and resources because if you're overwhelmed and overworked, how do you have time to take advantage of a meditation app?

So I think we are so of like mind here. We are so of like mind. Right. And I actually, you know, I talk a lot around this notion of, you know, the work that we are doing. Now, Jen, I completely understand the pullback from well being. In fact, that's the first thing I often tell clients is I have something that really focuses, you know, we've built something, as you said, you know, and this was last year, my colleagues at McKinsey, you know, published this research where 97% of the drivers of burnout are all around job team organizations. 72% of wellbeing is around the design of job teams and organizations. Right. It's not about individuals. And you know, Barbara and I work very closely together. She always says this, you know, you can't yoga your way out of this crisis, which is what most, you know, programs wellbeing are. So we are doing some work right, with Google right now. And even if you think about that organization, a big chunk of their work is around E, which is if people are struggling, I want to make sure we support them. And then the rest of it is all around the individual. But nothing is about proactively shaping and changing work where flourishing becomes integrated into how we work. And that's why most of these programs.

I talk about it as an, as an outcome.

Right. You know, that's why most programs have zero roi. So my pitch to most organizations is you absolutely should cut your well being programs and reinvest those dollars in programs that will actually first of all change work. And hence implicitly there is another pivot here, right. Which is instead of having a well being program be a benefit, which you think about a split the Pie using Alex Edmond's work approach, let's actually make it every leader's responsibility, not the HR benefits, Chief well, being officer's work. Let's give them the skills and the tools they need to change work. To change work and engage with their teams almost on a monthly basis. Right. So this becomes. So we actually move the needle on this thing.

And this. And this is a hundred percent. Absolutely, without a doubt, the only way to move the needle. It is not throwing more money at tools and programs. You know, your workforce will tell you they don't need you to schedule a yoga class for them. They are more than capable of scheduling their own yoga class. But what they do need you to do is create work and work environments that are sustainable so that they can schedule and go to their yoga class.

Exactly. So tell me this. I'm so I'm curious and I'll share a little bit. You know, I'll share a little bit with our listeners because this is a different way of, you know, of approaching this 100%. I'm curious about, as the Chief wellbeing officer, right, At Deloitte, what were some things that you created as part of your wellbeing strategy and implemented that started to move the needle? And maybe what were some things that didn't move the needle? And you were like, you know, we thought this was gonna make a difference, but this was really hard for the organization to adopt.

Yeah. So that's a really good question, especially I think, following what we just said, because I do, while I do think that there is opportunity to stop investing in certain programs so that you can reinvest it in, you know, the redesign of work or the flow of work and what that looks like. I think it's important for anyone that is just starting or not that far. I mean, there's. There's a maturity curve here. Right. And so you do have to start at the beginning. Right. Like, the first thing we did was, it sounds silly, but create a language and a framework. You know, what is well being?

What is well being?

Yeah. Like, what does it mean at your organization? What can you expect? You know, what does that look like within, you know, the four walls? What does that look like with the types of work that people are doing? Right. And so if you think about an organization like a Deloitte or McKinsey, perhaps not as much McKinsey, but at Deloitte, the four distinct businesses, you have audit and tax, busy season. Right. And so well being is actually going to look and mean something different during those periods of time. And what I think is important is recognizing and acknowledging that. Right. And telling people like, hey, during these periods of time, you know, there's going to be a much higher focus. You're going to work longer hours, we're going to be up against deadlines. That's true with any large consulting project, but that's true in any business, in any job. Almost. Right. But what we don't do is create clarity around that. Like, what does that mean? What can I expect? Because human beings, if we know what to expect, if there's clarity, we can rise to the occasion, especially knowing that there's an end. Right. Like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. As soon as this is over. I can operate at a much normal pace and kind of take advantage of a different flow of work. But you do have to start with kind of like this language, this definition. What can you expect? Provide clarity. Renee Brown says clear is kind. That applies in this situation. And then you do need to have a good foundation of programs and tools for people because they do, you know, we talk about, you know, you can't like self care your way out of a bad work environment or toxic work environment. Absolutely. But at the same time, we as individuals do have some responsibility. Right? We all have a responsibility to take care of ourselves, to set boundaries, ask for what we need, to seek out what we need. The flip side of that coin is I could do my the best job ever of taking care of myself. If I'm existing in a world that is constantly toxic, I'm basically undoing everything. You know, like all the work that I'm doing as an individual is being undone by that toxic environment. And that's where kind of the and is. And so I think if you're the beginning of the maturity curve or somewhere in the middle of it, there is really this focus on how do you create the language, how do you create some of the tools and resources? Because that's the permission. Like, that's the culture piece. Right. And people do want and need this permission. Like, hey, if I focus on my wellbeing or I talk about well being, is that going to be seen as something that's good? Or am I going to be seen as less committed or lazy? Or I'm more focused on myself than I am on organizational or team goals. So I see you wanting to say something. So I was gonna say.

Or even a bigger one, Jen. Which is. Or I am weak.

Or I'm weak.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, that resonates with my story. Right.

Literally. Right. Like yeah, I'm weak. Like if I, if I get sick, I have no problem talking about it and asking for help. Right. In your case, you know, you had a cancer scare and you kind of, you know, went through and did it. We are very comfortable talking about it when we are physical, but when we are struggling mentally still today in organizations, forget even organizations in our day to day lives, somehow we have this huge stigma where if we are struggling mentally, we are weak, we're defective. Right. And I love this.

All of us struggle mentally.

We all do. Right?

We all do. It's part of the human condition. So welcome to the club.

Yeah. And even more so now, Right. Because, you know, I, in my book Hardwired for Happiness, I talk about. The original book was actually called From Fear to Freedom. And I talked about how. Yeah. So the title was from fear to Freedom. A journey from within to live your best life. And what I was really tuning into is the reality is our world outside has become more volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. Just look at what we are in the midst of right now with the election season and our fear circuits are always on. Right. So we are getting more and more like hardwired that way. And unless we choose to normalize and shift, we're not, you know, if everybody's struggling. Yes. I mean, there is lots out there. So I love what you said.

Yeah. And to your point, you know, you've obviously watched and listened to my TEDx talk, but I, that's the whole point of the talk is that I struggled with burnout and I also was diagnosed with cancer. Both of those in the workplace and when someone has cancer, you don't tell them, oh, we'll finish your work and you can rest over the weekend. You tell them, do what you need to do, I'm here, I've got your back, let me know what you need. When somebody tells you they're overwhelmed or they think they might be burnt out, you're like, okay, well let's just finish this project and then you can take a vacation. Well, it doesn't work that way. Like the vacation doesn't heal the burnout. That's not the work that needs to be done. If somebody is struggling with their mental health, you know, be it burn. I think burnout's a tricky one because burnout isn't even a concrete medical diagnosis like depression, like anxiety, but it has many of the same symptoms, you know, and it's often connected to depression and anxiety in many cases, but we still question it. We wonder if it's valid. We Wonder if it's real when it's absolutely real, because more than half of the workforce says they're experiencing it. So we might have lost the thread there, but it was a good conversation anyway, for sure.

So tell me a little bit. So what were three initiatives, Jen, as in your role that you launched that, you know, I think any leader who's kind of going on this journey or kind of somewhere along should learn from what were three. The highest impact ones, you know, really moved the needle.

Yeah. So, you know, and they all kind of like blur together. I think that, you know, the first one was obviously the launch of kind of the program itself. And if you're at the beginning, it does need to be programmatic because it needs to kind of, you know, be housed in something that people feel like they can point to, that they can relate to, that they have clarity as to what it is. I completely agree with you that wellbeing should not and is not a benefit, but it can start as a program. I very rarely talk about it as a benefit because wellbeing shouldn't be a benefit. Wellbeing should be an outcome of well designed work. I think what was super impactful for us at Deloitte was a ambassador program that we created and that we engaged our workforce force in. And so what we realized, we didn't set out to create this ambassador program, but what we realized, you know, kind of midway through my journey in the role, was that there were a whole lot of people in the organization that were passionate about this topic called well being, and that many of them were doing incredible things outside of their work and outside of the work day. And we were like, wow, if we could just harness that and harness that as a resource for us, because we were a really small team inside of a giant organization. Right. And so, like, when you're trying to change culture, you need a whole lot of people helping you. And I was never going to be able to grow the team to a thousand or thousands of people. And so it was like, how do we harness this passion? And then I think what we knew but also realized and kind of saw come to life was once we were able to put some structure around this, you know, around. We called them our well being wizards, and they're still called that today. But we put some structure around it. We provided them with guidance, we provided them with training. You know, we provided them with all kinds of different, you know, just a community. Right. Almost like an erg, if you will. And then we let them loose. But the beauty in doing that is when you're thinking about culture change. You're telling all of these people, like, go out and do this on your teams. You know, go out and do this in your office. That checks the permission box. But also telling people, hey, I know that you're passionate about this in your personal life. I know that you have studied meditation or yoga or whatever it is and we're now giving you the permission to bring that to work with you. We're recognizing it, we're giving you credit for it. We see you, we know this is important to you. That is such a powerful and by the way, really cheap, you know, like you're not spending money on a giant technology platform. I used to call them our human technology platform. You know, they were the ones out in the world doing the stuff. Right. So powerful. I think without that group of people. And it grew from, you know, 100 to 600 to, you know, when I left. It's in the thousands now. And I think also like I was very lucky. I had support from the top. The younger workforce by like far is saying this is a non negotiable for us. I'm not going to work at an organization that doesn't care about my well being. And then it's, you know, those like myself that are, you know, we're in the middle that like we're like, oh wait, can we really ask for these things? You know, we just kind of accepted that work is the way that it was, you know. So I think learning a lot from that younger generation and I think, you know, where we are now with that is also we need to be having these real conversations about like solving the problems of work and we need to be listening to one another because I see a lot of finger pointing going on, but we can get to that later. So that was incredibly impactful as a program or as something that we did to really shift culture in mindset. You know, I think to kind of add the third thing there. Before I left Aloy, we had started to go down this path of not a rebranding of well being, but a broader look at what we were calling human sustainability. And so really what are the things that matter to human beings at work? You know, belonging, inclusion, well being, like what are the like the true kind of human aspects of work and the things that people need and that they're looking for that in their minds. If they get that from their organization, they feel like it's value add, learning and development is another one. Right. And so how do we string all of these things together? Climate change and working for an organization that is, you know, supporting, you know, climate sustainability. How do you string all of those things together in a way that adds value to your workforce as human beings, not as people that are going to work harder and longer hours because you're doing these things for them, but creating this more virtuous cycle around, yes, you work for me and I pay you, but I also as an organization have an obligation to make people and therefore society better. So it's just kind of this broader view of like, how do we move the needle from, like what you said, that, you know, wellbeing is this solely the responsibility of the individual person to this more holistic kind of value add, virtuous cycle between people and organizations and the societies and communities in which they operate. And so that's still kind of being developed and figured out. But I do think that that's the next horizon and I'm really proud that I was at least able to be at the beginnings of that.

Enjoying this episode. If you think someone you know could benefit from these insights, why not share the podcast with them right away? A quick share could make a big difference in someone's day. Thanks for spreading the happiness and being part of this happiness revolution with us. Yeah, no, I love that, you know, and I think just for our listeners, right, to just synthesize, I think there's so many beautiful nuggets here, right? This notion of, number one, look, friends, you might be in a chief wellbeing officer role, you might be in an HR role, you might be an operating line leader, you might be middle management, you might be just early. The first thing is ask yourself a question and if the answer is no, do something about it. Which is, is well being at your organization predominantly a benefit or is it a core part of the strategy? Right. And the markers you'll see as a benefit is you're invited to, well, being expert calls. You might have an app, you might have an eap, but you know, nobody's checking into how are you doing on a monthly, weekly basis of how are you? Right. I think so this notion of really well being as. And by the way, you can use the research, please use it. You'll put it in the notes. Here's the ROI. Two to three and a half percent higher shareholder returns year over year versus competitors, 30 to 50% higher shareholder value that the strategy can create. You won't find anyone else, any other strategy that gives you this level of impact while amplifying the impact of every other strategy. Right. So number one and really have that conversation. Hey, is well being a benefit or is it really a core part of how we get the best out of our teams? Have that conversation. Yeah, with that data. Number two, having said that, it is important to actually have a program and have a launch and talk about it. And the reason we want to talk about it is because, Jen, what you talk, you know, you're legitimizing the conversation around, well, being physical, mental, emotional, spiritual as it is. Okay? It is not if I talk about I'm struggling, it's not because I'm weak. It's because I think, look, collectively we can one, offer help, but secondly, it's an invitation if you're a leader. If somebody's struggling, that means you're only getting 30, 40% of what you're paying them. It doesn't matter the hours they put in, right? It's the output. So you have a financial fiduciary responsibility to actually take action and you have to make it okay. You know, I wish humans came with like a meter on their head that said, I am red. And so everybody saw it. You know, we don't, we don't come with that. So you can have somebody perfectly put together in front of you, holding themselves. Everything is good, and deep inside they.

Are 100% completely one little thing away.

From full breakdown, right? So let's legitimize it. Let's actually make it. And I think that's what programs can do. Like this notion of what wellbeing means. How do you know where you are? Because we're not taught this. So I think that's a very second important one. If you have one, it's great, go relaunch it. So it's front of, front of mind for people. And you say it is okay. And I think the third one, which I really, really loved, and it reminds me of the gps, you know, at Google, this model of scaling programs. That's how they scale. Search inside yourself. We have a similar model we used to have at McKinsey. You know, they say if you cut me, I'd be blue. It's been two years since I left McKinsey and I still refer in the V because I love the firm. I absolutely love the firm. I was there for 17 years. But I think that's.

You will always be a we.

I'll always be. It'll always be a we. I think, till my, till my, till I, till I die. But, you know, this notion of, look, there are people who care about this, and I think that's a very Powerful way to scale it. And I love the concept of whether it's an employee resource group, but really ambassadors, these, you know, what I would call warriors of light and well being. I loved your well being. Wizards. I think that's a fantastic name. You know, let's give them, let's celebrate them and let's actually have them, you know, really play that role within. Because, by the way, you mentioned this earlier, a lot of people don't find meaning at work. They find this work meaningful. Let them go do this here. Why do you need to go do it outside? And they'll stick around longer and they'll have so much more impact. You'll amplify, you know, you're really 100%.

And I think what we also found is that when you have these people that are doing it on a team within an office, we all look to each other, right, to understand what are the accepted behaviors, what are the accepted norms. Can I really do this? Should I really do this? When you have people that are doing it that you're like, oh, wait, you know, Jen's doing it, that means I can, you know, like, I can do it too. I can find my own path. So it's further to your point, amplifies that permission that, you know, that, that cultural permission to say, yes, this is okay here.

So, Jen, I have to ask you this. I was thinking about this. You know, consulting, accounting, venture capital, private equity, banking are not the places where people look to, you know, given the hours people work, the travel people do. I mean, I have, you know, I own reflections of my 20 years as a consultant of like, you know, the lifestyles we lead. When you rolled this out, what was the resistance, if any, that you faced in terms of people saying, yeah, that's great, but I have to run a business, I have to run a practice, I have to deliver a project.

There was a lot of that. You know, I mean, I, I think that I kind of broke it up into three buckets. Like, the people that were all in, that got it, that in some way, shape or form were already figuring out or living their life this way, but weren't necessarily talking about it because it wasn't this acceptable behavior or norm. So they were, you know, kind of doing it quietly. Those that believed in it, understood the need for it, but didn't really understand, like, how it would come to life and what would that mean and how would it change things and, you know, like commentaries of like, oh, well, if I, if it's okay for Jen to go to yoga at 3 o' clock in the afternoon and it's 3:15 and I need her, what do I do? And I'm like, well, you know, Jen will be back at 4. Despite what we often think, myself included, none of the work that we're doing is that urgent that Jen can't get back to you at 4:00'. Clock. Right. Or you can't reach her for 45 minutes. And so that we just need to take a step back. And like, I mean, that was part of my burnout story, is that some of my own behaviors that I look back on, like with my husband who would come into my home office and be, and like, try to talk to me and I would give him the back of my hand and be like, I'm so busy, I can't talk to you right now. Like, who is that person? And, and is that really who we want to be? Right? Like, but we kind of take on this thing that like, our work is so important. There's no way that anybody that's not doing this work can understand how important it is because you're just not part of this, you know. And so we do need to kind of break away from that, you know. And so, I mean, you kind of have to start little by little to show these people and these leaders like, this is what it looks like and this is what it actually means. And by the way, the world's not going to come to an end. And oh, by the way, even further, if you give it a little while to play out, what you will see is increased engagement. You will see people that are happier and more engaged in work, which then makes their work product better, which then allows them to actually potentially do even more work because they are more engaged, they're more cognitively prepared to take on these challenges and they want to do more because they can do more and they're feeling good. I think the problem is, is that we get so stuck in the, well, what's it gonna mean for me right now that like, and I think that that's a problem of our world, but certainly a problem that we kind of talked about or talked around already is that a lot of leaders are expecting to like, make these big investments. Throwing spaghetti at the wall, rolling out all these, you know, meditation apps and saying, okay, like, we've done it, where's the magic? You know, where's the magic going to happen? And we don't realize that these, these things take time. Just like we have long term financial, operational, technical plans, we need long term people plans that include more Than just headcount reductions.

Absolutely.

You know, because that's the way we think of people. And so there were certainly those. And so that was the second bucket. And we actually spent a lot of time because those were the people that were like, I get it, I want it. Help me get there, help me understand. And then, quite frankly, there was a third bucket that wasn't interested, didn't want to get it, had the attitude of, like, the firm didn't do this for me when I was growing up, so they need to struggle and suffer too. And I was like, you know what? I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince those people because they don't want to understand. Right. And so, like, there's some old quote that's like, I don't know, something about like around banging your head against the wall. So I was kind of like, okay, well, there's just. There's always going to be a group of naysayers. And when you're doing this type of, like, hardship work, you just got to accept that there are always going to be people that disagree with you because they didn't do it that way. And so really we focused on that middle bucket and leveraged the people in that first bucket to help us focus on that middle bucket.

Yeah, yeah. No, and I think, you know, it's interesting and I think, you know, for any of your colleagues who are listening and for any of the else, you know, this was an insight I had, you know, when I was leading teams and I started doing this work. And as I told you, you know, I initially grew up in ops. I did 10 years of large scale ops, transformation work, you know, in factories, with procurement, et cetera, et cetera. And friends, if you are working with humans, like in professions like consulting, accounting, venture capital, banking, anything that, you know, call centers, like where it's the human involved. Think about it this way. If you were an operator running a machine and you Knew that day one, you were gonna get 80 parts from the machine and they were gonna have 1% quality errors, right? So, like only maybe 1 out of 0.1, 0.81 out of 8B is a problem. On day two, you were running the machine and you knew that the machine was only gonna be able to give you 70, and two of those parts were gonna have a problem. The third day it was 60, and five of those parts were gonna be a problem. And the fourth day it was 50. And 10 of those parts are going to be a problem. You would never accept it. You would take action. But the same happens in these professions, Right. And I noticed it myself and we made the changes. So one of the things we instituted in my teens, I was like, nobody's flying Monday morning. Nobody's flying Monday morning. If we need to be there Monday, we fly Sunday night. Right. But we don't fly Monday morning. Why? Because if you are Getting up at 4am or 5am, rushing yourself to the flight, half sleeping in the plane to try and get there, you know, first of all, by 12 o' clock, you're already half vegetable. So you're at that 50% line, right. Even if 70, and then we're gonna go out and not, you know, work late. And you could literally see, you could literally, if you step back and you really looked, you could see the following. Number one, the quality of the work and the ideas kept going down as the week went by because people weren't sleeping enough, you know, late night, going out, you know, during the day, having caffeine, which means your sleep, even if you're sleeping, is not healthy. It's taking people longer. They're making more errors, more mistakes.

Yeah.

They are less emotionally regulated and reading the client's language and where they're going, they are more irritable with each other. And then they're going to go off on Thursday. And I was like, this is stupid. This is crazy. Like, I would never accept that in a physical factory. Why are we accepting that in a human factory? And so hence going back to how do we make the changes to make sure that if we are dependent on our human assets for the output and that's what the clients are paying for, they are at their best. You know, we're doing all the maintenance we need to do. And I think that reframe of, like, look, it's not just about the hours. You can run a machine 24 7, but if your quality is low and it's taking things longer, that is the exact analogy. In fact, you know, we studied this, Jen, at the firm. So, like at McKinsey, we had launched a program called the Way We Work. We've always had team barometers where every month every team got their scores around hours that they were working, number of hours they were sleeping, how they're feeling. And we had these dialogues and what we correlated. Right. What we found was when teams flourished, the client impact was higher, the client experience was higher, and people's performance was higher. Right. I mean, this was not nice to have. This was like a very clear. In fact, that's why a big part of this became when teams were in the red after four weeks, they would get a call from somebody, their cell leader, because the cell leader would get a call from somebody else to say, hey, here's what's going on.

What's going on.

You're actually putting the firm at risk because this team is struggling. So let's go have a conversation about how do we address is the work over scope? Are you struggling with a client that is hard? Like, what do you need? What do you need? How can we fix this?

And I think that's so important because the way you just described it is we do need to hold leaders accountable. But it's not a carrot and a stick. We're not holding them accountable. In terms of what's going on with your team, we're here to beat you over the head. It's what's going on with your team. How can we help you now that we have this information, now that we have this data? I think what I also love about, I talk about it is like, what are the barriers in the way of getting work done? Right? Like, and the Monday morning flights, that's a barrier in the way, you know, that's like, if that's a norm, if that's an expectation for people, that then becomes a barrier because you're right, it's what's required of them. And then they show up and they're not at their best. Right. And so we as leaders need to step back and like, identify those things and say, like, why do we need to travel on Monday morning? Do we need to travel at all anymore in this environment? Yet sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes the answer is no. But we're just kind of like, I don't know, I feel like we're in this place where it's like, we know that the way that where we are isn't working. But somehow instead of moving forward, we want to go back to the way that things were before. Because we have this view that things were better before, but were they really? Or did we just accept them or have different coping mechanisms? And so I feel like we're like, at this place where we're like, yeah, it's not working, so we're going to go back instead of like saying no, we need to actually car. We need to find this new way forward. And we know what the new way forward is. So what's preventing us from moving in that direction?

Yeah. And I, I would even actually even say, regardless, I feel there is no going back. And the reason there's not going back is, you Know, it's a little bit of the river analogy, right? Like this notion of you never cross the river twice because you're not the same and the river is not the same. You can choose to go back, but you know what? The external environment is not the same.

Not the same. And nostalgia, Nostalgia just hits differently, right? Like you think it was better than it really was.

It was, in fact, you know, I, you know, in fact, you know, it's interesting. I actually do think it was better than before. People are struggling more now, and so. But going back is not gonna make you better. It's actually gonna make it worse.

It's not gonna, it's not gonna fix it. Yeah, it's not gon.

It's actually gonna make it worse. So listen, just looking at the clock, you know, there's a whole section I would love to get you back. And we'll record one on connection because it's such an important topic and was at the heart of your book. But before we go, Jen, look, you were in a high pressure job. You know, you've had burnout, you kind of went through cancer. Like, this is something. Like, you're not one. Like, you're like, you know, who's out there, who's had, you know, easy. Like you've been in high pressure roles and you've kind of really made this happen. So, like, what I want as my last question is what are three or four things that are like non negotiables for you in your new way of operating that you adopted, that you would invite our listeners to consider seeing if it worked for them. It might not work for them, but they won't know till you try. So what are those three to four non negotiables that are now part of your regimen?

Yeah, I would say, number one, the biggest lesson that I learned, and it took cancer to learn that, unfortunately, was boundaries and the importance and power of boundaries. And I think for people that are high performers, but also have a very high sense of obligation to others and have this feeling of like, I don't want to let other people down, so I'm just going to say yes to everything without a recognition of kind of what's the personal impact to me, I, I try to talk about boundaries or I look at boundaries now, and so many other people have said this is, you know, if you're saying no to something, you're saying yes to something else, you know, and so if you're saying no to something, you're hopefully you're saying yes to yourself, but also the, the great thing about boundaries is people think it's a bad word. It's not a bad word. And boundaries can be flexible, right? It can be a no, I can't do it right now. But here's the six other times that I can do it. And most of the time, one of the six other times that you can do it work just as well as the time that the person was asking you. It goes back to, we just need to ask what we need, right? Or, you know, and so that, that in itself is a boundary, like giving other options. I can't do it right now, but I can do it here or I can't do it right now, but I can do it when I free up off of this project or, you know. And so that was something that I learned really, really important to me now. And it does take courage and it does take. Take an understanding of yourself, right? And an understanding of what you need. So it takes that kind of internal work. Other big, big, big, big one for me is sleep. I do not negotiate my sleep away. I will ask my husband, I will he keep. If we go to friend's house or to a party, he takes the keys now because I've been known to get up and get in the car and leave him there because he's too busy talking to other people. And I'm ready to go and I'll text him and be like, find your own ride home. I'm in bed, you know, so I don't negotiate. I mean sleep. If you want to enhance your performance, sleep is the number one performance enhancer. If you start sleeping quality, quantity, you start sleeping better, you will feel like a different person. So if there's one thing you take away from this podcast today, get better quality and quantity of sleep. We all need it. And then for me, exercise is also a non negotiable and that looks different every single day. But as mentioned, I do live with anxiety. And on the days that I think it's a really good idea not to go for a walk or get in the gym. And again, it's not always something hard or difficult. It might be getting outside for 30 minutes. On the days that I do negotiate that away, my anxiety is sky high. And so that's really one of the things that, that helps me manage my mental health in a really powerful way. And so those are boundaries. Sleep and movement or exercise are my three.

I love those. Jen, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for the amazing work that you're doing and this, you know, shared path right. That we get a chance to walk in the second mountain journeys of ours to really create a world, you know, be a part of healing and fixing our ways of working so that we can create much better outcomes for ourselves and for everybody else. Thank you.

Absolutely. And I believe to my core that it's possible we can get there if we all work on it together. So thanks for having me today and I am 100% up for a part two, so just let me know when.

Awesome. Well, thank you, my friend. That wraps up another episode of the Happiness Squad podcast. We hope you found the insights actionable to enhance your journey towards happiness and fill your life with more joy, health, love and meaning. Please consider leaving us Review and share the podcast with anyone in your professional or personal life who you feel will benefit from some of these very insights. It's a really simple way to extend support and spread positivity. Take care and remember, happiness is a choice that's available to you moment to moment in the here and now. Take care and see you next week.