How To Build A Memorable Brand | Dr. J.J. Peterson, StoryBrand

It's time for episode number 258 and I'm so excited, you guys. This is a brand that is iconic in the marketing world and so the fact that they get to be on our podcast blows me away. Get ready to hear from Story brand on episode 258. Let's talk about your business strategy and the juicy details of what actually works from mainstream fashion to fashion on Main street and the entire ecosystem behind it. How do we scale you, your company, and do it with the balance and the happiness that we all seek? Let's hear from those insiders, experts and strategists that actually make it happen. I'm your host, Ashley Alderson from the Boutique Hub, and I can't wait to chat. Hey guys, if you haven't yet heard of Story Brand, it's time to get your Google fingers out. I first read the book by Donald Miller probably a year ago now and took copious amounts of notes and then started to follow up with all of their online tools and resources and found how easy it was really to break down the different elements of story and the different characters in the story and how to position yourself as a guide, but not the hero of the story. And that's the exact opportunity that every single one of you have today. As I know so many of you are building a more authentic brand and a more personal brand and a more empathetic brand. Especially the situation that we're in right now with a global pandemic and really using a lot more live video and building more personal relationships with your customers. So today I couldn't be more excited, truly, than to have StoryBrand featured on our podcast. My friend JJ Peterson is the chief storyteller at StoryBrand, also a great keynote speaker, has his doctorate in communications and is just so smart when it comes to breaking down how to be authentic and vulnerable, but in the most realistic way. In the time that we're in, he's going to drop some knowledge bombs on you guys. Also break down the elements of Story and help you to build a memorable brand with your customers through the opportunity that we're seeing right now. Guys, get ready to take tons of notes and meet JJ in this episode with StoryBrand. Hey guys. You are in for such a treat today. I am so excited. J.J. peterson is here, the chief of teaching and facilitation at storybrand and an all around good guy. Jj, how's it going?

Going great. Thanks for having me.

I'm so excited to have you. We were just kind of chatting before we started to Record for everyone who's listening today that we're both communications nerds.

Yes.

We love the thought process of communication and studying communication in school. And you have a PhD in communication.

I do.

Which takes it to a whole new level.

Yeah. And actually, like, study specifically in narrative theory and narrative marketing.

I love it. I love it. So if you guys are listening, make sure you have notes to take today. You've got a notebook handy because you're likewise going to get your PhD from JJ. So a couple things. In case anyone has not yet read storybrand or has followed storybrand and the framework, I want to start there to kind of give everyone a little bit of background and context on that. And then we've got a number of other things we can talk about as it relates to. To marketing today and retail today. But I think this is a great place to start in terms of how to clarify your message, how to stand out in the marketplace, and how to not confuse your customers. So kind of give me some background how you came to storybrand and what people need to know about the framework.

Yeah. So for me, my whole life has really been, like you said, kind of about story and communication. My undergrad degree is in communication, and I worked for two different international public relations, I mean, two different international nonprofits in Africa and in Central America doing community development and fundraising and messaging for them, and then ended up actually doing comedy for a while. I toured and did improv comedy, which is the obvious, you know, move from working in the slums in Tijuana through stages across comedy club, and did that for a while, and then ended up going back and getting my master's actually in theology and the arts, so study of story in film and television. And then became a professor and taught communication and became dean of students. And I was living in Southern California, and as you do in Southern California, I actually sold a reality television show to a production company because I had worked in television and film as well. You know, I have kind of this crazy, wild, fun history. But I made up a television show with my brothers called Bad A Brothers. And the premise is that my brothers and I were so not bad a that we couldn't even say the word. And the way that we would up our bad a reputation is by traveling around the United States and finding those old quirky laws that are still on the books. Like, you can't cross the Minnesota border with a duck on your head. True law. And we would research the history behind those laws and then break those laws so we could be more better. So. So I left. I was dean of students at a college, and I left the college to pursue this. This dream of really creating this crazy show with my brothers. And. And I had done TV and film for a while, so I'd kind of been in that world. And that's.

Your parents knew that this is what was coming. Your parents were like, yes, go for it.

Well, I was already, like, almost 40 at this point, so my par. They really didn't have much say. They. Well, they did love it because they love all of us brothers being together. So. But, you know, so it was actually when I was dean of students, I invited Don in. Donald Miller, who's the founder of storybrand, in to speak at my college, and we just became friends, and he knew I was leaving, and he was just getting storybrand kind of started and off the ground. And he said, well, why don't you come out to Nashville? We're doing these little workshops with about 20 people, and why don't you help clarify your message? Basically figure out how to pitch this TV show and pitch yourself? And I was like, okay, yeah, that'll be fun. And, you know, in my mind, I'm like, yeah, this is what I do, Don. Duh. You know, like, I travel around, and I. And I teach this stuff, and I write, and I. You know, I've been doing communication a long time, but I was like, yeah, I'll go check it out. And I went and checked it out and flew to Nashville, went to a workshop, and it absolutely blew me away. And the reason it blew me. And then, basically, from then on, I was hooked. Like, the TV show ended up getting picked up, but never made and kind of fizzled out. And in the meantime, I just kept coming back to Nashville to be a part of storybrand. And why I kept coming back is because what. What Story Brand does is so many people are so close to their products and services, or they are in a really crowded marketplace and don't know how to stand out. And they need messaging to help them figure out how to. To clearly communicate what it is that they offer and invite customers in in a new way. And most people think, like, well, you just have to be super creative. Like, that's what you have to do. You have to be really good and creative, and you have to hustle a lot. And while those things are true, what I've learned over the years and what Story Brand really teaches is that there are actually rules to how you tell story. The story is based in formula, and these formulas go back all the way. Like, even to Aristotle and Plato, who really began studying and formalizing how good story works. And those formulas have continued today. And even you can see them in movies at the box office. Well, no longer in the, in the movie theater, but on your tv, on Netflix. You can see the rules of story. And when you understand the rules of story, then you can actually speak in a way about your. You can tell a good story about your company, about your products, in a way that people will engage because it's the way they already think they understand story. Story is the universal language. And so once I kind of discovered that, I was all in and I wanted to help everybody, everybody do it, everybody tell great stories.

So thinking about story being the universal language, I feel like so many business owners today, like, that's kind of a disconnect. We start a business, we're going to sell a product, but no one really understands, okay, well, how do I actually make my product connect with my customer? Like, what's the hang up? They should just buy it because it's great, right?

Yeah. Wrong.

Right. There's a formula behind it. Can you talk about that framework and how to start using story in your brand?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of people, again, think that, like, story is just like, well, if I just have a great product, people will come and this, the product is the story. And it's like, well, kind of, yes. If you don't have a good product, you're still. It doesn't matter what kind of story you tell, you're probably still not going to do great. But for those of us who have great products, you know, it. It's not an if you build it, they will come kind of thing. You have to invite them into a story. And I'll run through just kind of. There's tons of like, kind of longer formulas that are out there, but really from a very simplistic point, just breaking it all down, like if we were writing a screenplay, there's actually like 32 to 36 points you have to hit, depending on what type of movie you're writing. But in. In just your most basic understanding of story, there are really seven elements that are in every good story. And those seven elements are, first, there is a character you have to, in a movie within the first about nine minutes, understand who the main character is and what that main character wants. It has to be super clear. And that main character can't want 20 different things. Jason Bourne can't want to understand his identity, but also open a cupcake shop and train for a marathon and get the girl and adopt a cat. Like, you can't. That's a horrible movie. That breaks the rules. That's one of the rules, is you have to have a character who wants something. And that has to be super, super clear. And it really has to be one thing. Then the second element is that character has to encounter a problem. All good stories, really. Stories only really get going when there is a problem. If I was telling you a story about me just sitting on my couch all day, literally, like, yeah, I drank a little bit of orange juice in the morning, and then I sat and did. You don't. You're not engaged in that, right? It's not a good story. It's very boring. But if I'm sitting on my couch and all of a sudden a car crashes through my window, now we have a story, right? Because there is a problem. So in a movie, the main character wants something, then has to encounter a problem that gets in the way of that. Then next, the. The character. Third element is a character has to meet a guide. Someone who comes alongside them who's already overcome this problem that they're encountering has already won the day. So they have empathy for the main character. They know what they're going through, and they've already won the day. So in Hunger Games, Katniss has Haymitch. In Lord of the Rings, Frodo has Gandalf. In Star Wars, Luke has Yoda. Right? You'll see this over and over and over again, is that there is somebody who comes along to help the hero win the day. And the key things there is, they have to have empathy and authority. They have to understand what the main character went through, and they have to have won the day. The fourth element is then that here, that guide gives the hero a plan. Think about in how many movies you hear the words, what's the plan? Or, here's the plan. Or, now we. Let's get going on the plan. You just, like. You see that over and over, because no matter how crazy the task is that the heroes are trying to accomplish, like, you know, they're in Ocean's Eleven, they're trying to rob the Bellagio, which it's never been done, and it's impossible, and the security is too crazy, and then they go, but here's the plan. And now we as an audience, when we see the plan, can see that there is a way forward. Then there comes a moment. The next element is call to action. There's a moment in the movie when the hero has to accept or reject the movement Forward. Like, there is a moment that. That everything kind of hinges on. And that's why you have so many, like, bombs going off in a movie or in five minutes, or you have, you know, the villain has kidnapped somebody and they'll disappear if you don't get them within 24 hours. There's a moment that the hero has to act. And if they act, then it leads to the next element, which is success. So the hero overcomes the problem and wins the day. Or we know that if the hero doesn't act or they fail, that there is failure. And we know exactly what is at stake in the story and what failure can look like. So those are the seven elements of story. A character who wants something, one, two, who encounters a problem, three, who meets a guide, four, gives them a plan, five, calls them to action, six, that it can either end in failure or seven, success. That's every story you see these days. And that's really what are the rules. And if you break those rules. This is where some of my nerdiness comes in. With my PhD. You break what's called fidelity and coherency. And when a story does not stay consistent and move through the rules, it breaks fidelity and coherency. And there's a bunch of research that shows that when you achieve fidelity and coherency, when a story makes sense and people can be engaged in it, they experience what's called narrative transportation. Narrative transportation is when you. Like, essentially, it's like when you say, I got lost in a book. Or like you're watching a movie and you jump when something jumps out at the character. Or you cry when you're actually engaged in the movie, experiencing it. You experience narrative transportation. You get in the story. And then there's more research that says that when you experience narrative transportation, your mind changes based on what you've seen and your actions change based on what you've seen. So you put all that together and you say, when a story makes sense, when it follows the rules and has fidelity and coherency, people engage in that story at a higher level, and they then actually change their mind and their actions based on that. So now taking all of that back to brands. Okay, so that was. I thought it was a lot.

It's so good. Everyone's, like, sharpening up in.

So how all this applies to brands. Okay, so basically, you need to tell a consistent story, a story that has fidelity and coherency about your brand, because then people will experience narrative transportation. They will see themselves in the story, then they're. They're More likely to, to like you and buy from you. And there's research that shows that you can experience narrative transportation in as little as an Instagram post. So what, we're not talking here like that. You have to be telling this long story or long videos with everything. It means that when you do, when you do messaging, whether it's an email, a one liner that describes what you do, your website, Instagram post, posts, when you follow the rules, people can experience narrative transportation and are more likely to buy. So applying the rules of story to a brand, the way that this works, is your job. Your job as a brand is to invite customers into a story to help them experience narrative transportation. And the way you do that is you establish that the character of your brand story is your customer. Your customer is the hero of the story. So many brands make a mistake of making themselves the hero of the story. They think we have to be great, we have to show how wonderful we are. That's not true. You have to position your customer as the hero of the story. So you need to identify. And this is as simple as literally writing down clearly, what does our customer want? So what does our customer want as it relates to our brand? That's the question you want to ask. Answer. That needs to be clear and it needs to be specific. And, and it can really only be one thing. It can't be 20 things. In the same way that Jason bourne can't want 20 things. Your customer doesn't want 20 things. It's like if you were to say, you know, you, you hire a plumber and you're like, love the plumber. And the plumber comes over to your house and hands you the business card after they're done and they, you see that they are a plumber and a caterer. Well, at that point, you're probably not hiring for either, right? They need to be known for one thing. You can't be known for a ton of different things. So you need to write down what is it your character wants? And the second piece of that is who does your customer want to be? What is their, what we would call aspirational identity? So how do they want other people to describe them? How do they want to describe themselves? Fashionable, trendy, on point, cute even. You can go into other things, like brave, strong, heroic. What is, how would you describe. They want to be described because your brand is about helping them become somebody. Customers that, that participate in the transformation of their, of their customers are going to win when you help somebody become something and speak that back to them. That's when you win. So first establish who is your character, that's your customer. What do they want and who do they want to be? How do they want to be described? Then what is the problem that's getting in the way of that for them? Then how do you position yourself as their guide? You, this is the big, the big paradigm shift in the story brand framework. You are the guide in the story, not the hero. And it's the guide. You're helping the hero win the day. So how do you position yourself as somebody with empathy and authority? So I've been in your position, so I understand you, I am you, which is a lot about authenticity and vulnerability, but also how have I moved forward? How have I already won the day or, or helped other people win the day? That's how you position yourself as a guide. And you only speak about yourself in your messaging out of those two buckets. Empathy and authority as the guide. Then you need to give them a plan. So what is the plan in the context of a lot of your listeners, it's like how do you purchase something or how do you accessorize or how do you put an outfit together or how do you know you basically you want to create a plan. This is what you're supposed to do. I'm your guide and I'm going to show you how to become who you want to be. And this is what you need to do to do that. 1, 2, 3. Your plan should have no more than three steps in it. Once you get over the three step plan, people start, they don't pay attention anymore. Then there needs to be a call to action. If and that call to action action usually is buy now. It just is literally like, and you can up the ante in buying now by doing like time sensitive offers. Because like that literally is like the bomb going off in a movie. Like you have 24 hours to make this order. You want to. Often what I recommend in those contexts is don't discount. If you can help it, try to move to value add. So I mean obviously like you're going to have sales on products and things like that, that's fine. But when you are in the boutique space, you are not a discount brand. So don't position yourself as a discount. So you create new calls to action. Try to find out how do I add value to this instead of diminishing the value of it. Now granted, is there moments for sales? 100%. Is there moments for flash discounts? 100%. Yes. Do not take that as a blanket. Like Never do, never, never, never discount. However, always I would argue first, how do you add value to your customer in those moments where there is in you have 24 hours or our fall sale or something like that. Look at value add versus money discount. Then beyond that you need, so that's the call to action. And then you need to show what success looks like. So what when they actually follow through and buy what they're going to buy, what does that look like on the end? And then failure, what happens when they don't? And you have to just put a little bit of missing out kind of things. So in the boutique space you're not going to go like your life is miserable if you don't have this. It's not a manipulative thing but it is showing that like you're missing out a little bit. And you need to show that, that they've missed an opportunity. So even with your brand it's, it's the same rules as a movie. Know what your character wants and who they want to be. Know what the problems are that are getting in the way and speak to those problems. Your brand solves problems for your customer. You position yourself as the guide with empathy and authority. Give them a plan to move forward. Find every moment you can to call them to action and then portray what success looks like when they do and failure looks like when they don't.

I love it. And in case you guys are listening and just, you know, having read the book, if you are listening and you have not read the book or I know you guys have courses that walk through this as well so you can kind of step by step go through and, and craft your own story. But then I think the next question in my mind anyway goes to, alright, now how do I implement it? This isn't just, this isn't just the about page on my website.

Right.

This isn't just like an email here and a post there. But I actually have to go through and like let this breathe life into every area of my being. And that comes through in every piece of marketing that I craft.

Yes.

You kind of like give that next step of direction of like, okay, where do I even start to like build that funnel and start to implement once I know what my key elements of my story are going to be.

Yeah. So the way that I look at those key elements is what I consider them to be guardrails. So it's not that you only say those little, the tiny words that are on that in that description. It's that anything you say has to come out of those spaces, right? So anything like if you decide that aspirational, the aspirational identity of your customer is to be trendy, then whenever you're writing emails and when you're doing Instagram posts, it needs to come out of the trendy bucket, right? Comfortable is not. Is a different story. So that's where I say, like what the story then creates is guide rails. So you can say, well, let's write a post about being comfortable. And you go, well, no, that's actually not our customer story. Our customer story is trendy. So you may drop comfortable in, but you can never lead with it because that is where now the messaging starts to get confusing. That's a different story. Comfortable and trendy are two different stories. Different aspirational identities are different. So like Rockstar mom or hip and chic, again, two different stories. So you want to use this to be to this then becomes like when I create this for a brand or for even a product we're trying to launch, I literally write this down on a piece of paper and put it up on my wall. And then any email I'm writing, anything on the webpage, anything that I is going to go on Instagram has to come out of the one of those seven messaging points. And I want to make sure I'm hitting all the seven messaging points at some point in my branding. So that doesn't mean that like every Instagram post has all seven or even my every email has all seven. It means that if I end up sending seven emails, that it needs to cover all aspects of that at some point in that. In that sequence. So that's the first thing is just understanding that this now becomes your guide rails for everything you're going to write and create. And then what we really recommend is creating, creating. If you don't already have a sales funnel, something that stays keeps you connected to your customers when you can't see them face to face, then you need to create a sales funnel. And we define a sales funnel as five things. A one liner, which is a simple way of explaining what you do or what your brand is all about. It's very, very a really simple. It's a formula actually that we teach you how to do. So you need a one liner, you need a clear website, you need a lead generator. A lead generator is something that you're giving away for free to your customers, like tips sheet or I mean it could be a sample, but really it's like five tips on this or five things to avoid. So it's something that gives your customer value and helps them move forward in their journey. Helps them become more of who they want to be. Helps.

Can that be a discount code?

It can be a discount code, yes. That can also be a discount code. And that can be. And the whole point of that is to get their email. And so you want to. It has to be valuable enough that somebody would download it to give you their email for it. Then you. Then after that, you actually do need a sales funnel. I mean, a sales email sequence and a nurture email sequence. Those are the five things. One liner, website, lead generator, sales emails, and nurture emails. Sales emails, especially in the boutique space and in, like, retail kind of space, they can involve, like a lot of imagery, a lot of. Doesn't have to be a lot of language per se, but you do want a little bit of language that tells part of the story in there. You know, literally brings in some of the aspirational identity. Speaks to that, speaks to the plan, speaks to success. Talks about maybe just a short couple sentences that talk about you with empathy and authority. Like, we get it, we understand. We are like you, like you. We have found just sentences like that, couple things like that to open it up and then actually do a lot of imagery. Nurture emails are different. Nurture emails. So sales emails are really designed to sell. Like, it's like, hey, this is what's on special right now. Or, you know, these, you know, it's about summertime, and here's the shorts we have. You know, it's really designed to sell. Nurture emails are when they don't actually buy. So let's say, or maybe they've already bought once and have not returned to buy again. Nurture emails are where you stay connected with your audience by doing exactly what I said, with the lead generator continuing to give them value. So what are the top trends that are coming up? You're not telling them to buy this right now. You're just saying, hey, we know you want to be trendy, and here's the top five trends that we see coming for this fall. And then the bottom, you can say, hey, go shop now. But the nurture emails are not really designed, designed to do a hard sell. They're just designed to give your customer value. And so, and especially right now during this kind of, you know, right now, different brands are seeing so much different levels of success during this Covid crisis. And those who have a sales funnel built already, like, the best time to build a sales funnel was a year ago. The next best time is right now. And we have heard from a couple of our customers, our clients, they'll come to us and say, hey, you know, I feel like a lot of people are bombarding everybody with emails right now. So we just want to be quiet and silent. And I would say, no, no, no, now, it's not the time to be silent. Now. You can't be tone deaf and be selling in a way that it feels super aggressive or basically like, not, you know, like a lot of people are hurting financially right now that I get that, a lot of people are not going out and buying new things, especially clothes, because we're not all out in public as much anymore. Right? So you. But that still doesn't mean you should be silent. What you should do is if you're. I would still sell, send sales emails because you still want to make money, but at the same time, up your nurture email. So what are, you know, you know, find some ideas, brainstorm with your staff, and sit down and go, all right, what are some tips we can give people? What are some free ideas? What are some things, you know, like five ways to repurpose your outfits. Those, those don't directly lead to sales for you in the moment, but what it does is it continues to position yourself as the guide, your brand as the guide that says, hey, we are on your side. And the reason we're asking you to buy from us, this is kind of. This is all subconscious, but the reason we're asking you to buy from us is because we actually want you to become who you've said you want to be. And we believe we have the best way for you to get there. But even if you don't buy from us, we still want you to win the day. And so here's some tips, here's some tricks, here's some things that we're going to offer you that are value, that help you become this person, whether you buy from us or not. When you're ready to buy, we're here, here.

Would you say there's like an ideal mix between sales content versus nurture content, your jab versus your right hook? Like on any channel, is there like a percentage you would mix it up one or the other?

Well, that's tough to be very honest, because it's also. It's all nuanced. It all depends on how long they've been in your email system. There's a lot of details to it. What I would say, though, is when they download, like your lead generation, like a discount code or your tips and tricks, that is the Time to sell them. Like everybody knows they're going to be get, they're going to be sold. So send a couple emails that are more direct sales emails and then drop them into a nurture sequence and then leave them in the nurture sequence until you're ready to do your next big push. So let's say it's getting ready for summer or getting ready for fall or an event, Mother's Day that's coming up. Then put them back into a sales sequence, send a couple sales emails, then go back to nurture. So it's not a like start and then once you stop, you're done. It's really an ebb and flow and, and, and most people, I would probably say most people are under doing it. If it is a concern for you, if you are concerned that we are sending too many emails, then I'm betting you're not sending enough because you're actually thinking about it. And so which is great, you should be thinking about it. But at the same time, like, don't be afraid even in this season to call people to action because when you're telling the story correctly and when you're kind of calling people into this place, you really are doing it because you want them to win the day. And even for us right now, we, we are, we're an events company where essentially everybody either came to Nashville, got on a plane to come to Nashville to be with us, or we went to go, got on plane and did a private workshop with them. Everything was in person pretty much. We had some online products, but that was not our main push. The online products were more like a little bit of an afterthought and all. And we had an event planned in April where we were going to have about probably 300 people at here in Nashville. And once everything shut down, we immediately went online. And at first we were like, well, you know, are we being tone deaf by trying to sell a product to people now? And what we did, we realized is that no, right now more than ever, it's important to stay connected to your customers when you can't seem to face to face. And that's what we teach people to do. And if people are going to survive this season, they need a sales funnel because they're not going to get people into their shops, they're not going to get face to face to face meetings. So they need a sales funnel. So if we actually believe that our product can help people, which we do, we believe it can help people and move forward, then it actually is our responsibility to Sell this to them now. We did. We. We dropped the price significantly compared to our live event. We wanted to stay in line with this, with the times and what was going on. But, like, if we didn't believe in our product, then it would actually be manipulation and it would feel like we were trying to rip people off or just try to make money for the sake of making money. But we believe in it. We straight. I believe that anybody who goes through our, our product, our courses, we price them at a point where we hope that people make back 10 times what they invested within 18 months. So just on that investment, not on what else they're doing, but this is. Ups their investment 10 times. So I have, I actually have no qualms about selling. So for people, when you ask that, going back to that question of what's the right percentage? You know, feel that out. Know your audience, be aware. The longer that they've been in your email system, the more emails you can send them, the shorter they've been in. You probably want to do a couple sales and then move right into nurture. But just keep that cycle going and think in this time and potential particular, what value can I bring to my customer? Not what can I get from them, what money can I get from them, but what value can I bring to them? And when you do that, then I don't think you're going to have to worry about how many emails you send.

I love that. Such a great answer. Sales is a noble process when it's done correctly. Right. Because you're filling someone's need.

Yep.

We have had that conversation awful lot inside of the boutique hub recently. So I appreciate how eloquently you put that. It's very, very good. Kind of moving. On that same note, though, a lot of people have now moved. They've transitioned to video. If they haven't been doing video already in retail now, they're definitely moving to it. And some people are extroverts and they love it. Other people are like, oh, my lord, I'm gonna puke. And they're wondering, how do I transition this brand that I've built into video? And it goes back to like, we were talking about empathy and a authority. Do you have some tips around, like, what boutique owners could do when it comes to building their brand now in a more empathetic way and authentic way through video?

Yeah. So I would say overall, like, when you're thinking video, visual in particular, like Instagram, Instagram Live, Facebook Live, those kind of things that you, you really want to for boutiques in particular, focus in the guide space. So empty empathy and authority and aspirational identity. I'll talk about aspirational identity first, because that one's a little bit easier. So the first thing is to understand who your character wants to become, right? So how. And the two questions you want to ask yourself and literally, like, take a minute and write, like, brainstorm and write this down. How do they want to be described by other people, and how do they want to describe themselves? Like, what's one word, really, that they would want other people to say about them? You know, when it comes to fashion, my customer wants to be blank. Or when it comes to. When it comes to the way they live their life, my customer wants to be blank. Think about that word then. Anything you. Not anything, but much of what you do on Instagram, Facebook, and in video needs to embody that characteristic. Do you want to tell stories that reinforce that? You want to show images that reinforce that, and you just want to put that out there so that you are putting yourself as. As their guide. This is what you will become when you wear this. You don't always say that, but that's what you're showing them, right? That this is part of their aspirational identity. So that's just visually from a video content and all that stuff. Just think in terms of how do I constantly reinforce for my brand that we are the people who help you become blank. Now, when it comes to how you position yourself as a guide, you have empathy and authority. So empathy is just, I am. I am like you. I understand the problems you're experiencing. I understand the things that you're going through. And then a third authority is either I have conquered that myself, or I have helped other people conquer that. So think of, you know, if you've seen Hunger Games, Haymitch, and Katniss, Haymitch has won the Hunger Games. So he knows what it's like to be in it, and then he's also won it. So he. He has got that authority. You know, Yoda is already a Jedi. He's been through that. He knows what that training is like, and he knows how to move forward. Right? There's always empathy and authority. And there's a really interesting thing that happens in movies and in story in particular, that the guide does for the hero is at the end of the movie, the guide typically gives, like, a head nod or hat tip or a wink at the end to basically say, you did it, kid. Right? You've done it. You became who you were supposed to be. That's in like so, so many movies. Like you can just, you could probably picture those moments. The, the head, you know, the, the cat team captain on the basketball team is being carried off on the shoulders and the coach just like gives a wave and walks off the court. Because they're the guide. They helped the character become who they were supposed to be. So part of the role of the guide is to continually affirm the transformation that the character is going through. Continually affect, affirm that they are becoming this person, that they are this person. Every little step helps them be there. And with empathy, so that's one thing. With empathy and authority, what you want to do is basically you have to be really careful. So sorry, my mind's going a million miles an hour, but let me focus. So the way the empathy and authority works is, is they, they're a one, two kind of combination punch. So like if I'm going to, to a gym and I'm going to work out with a trainer and I walk in and that trainer lifts up their, their shirt and has a six pack abs and goes, all right fatty, let's get going. They might have a lot of authority, but I'm not sure that they're my guide, right? Because they're like, they don't understand my, that I love ice cream. But if I walk into a trainer and I say, hey look, I'm losing, I'm looking to lose like 30 pounds. And that trainer goes, me too. That's a lot of empathy, but probably also not my person, right? And so you have to have somebody who, I walk into that trainer and they go, you know, hey, I get that you love ice cream. I love ice cream too. But I've actually figured out a way where you don't have to cheat yourself on some of the foods you love while also getting the body you want. That's my person, right? It's that combination. And in the space of, of, of empathy and authority, you have to maintain both of those at the same time. And this is where it gets tricky for people who are trying to be authentic and vulnerable. And I'll show, do an illustration because you can be authentic and vulnerable in all areas of your life, except you cannot be vulnerable in the area you are, are trying to be a guide for your customer. And let me explain that. So I went to a dentist right before Christmas and I had a broken tooth and I walked in and it was an emergency thing. I was in Oregon visiting my family. So not my normal dentist. And he took an X ray and put the X Ray up and literally started pacing the floor and started going, oh, this is not going to be good. This is not, not going to be good. And goes, oh, that is an angry nerve. And just like. And I started like getting nervous and he was like, I think we can do this, but I'm not sure. And ended up like being sick like a half hour into the surgery being. Because they needed to ultimately take the tooth because it was broken. He's like six inches from my face and he's cussing. He's literally cussing in my face. And he's. And he's talking to his dental assistant and going, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know what I'm gonna do. So she ends up, he's kind of like freaking out. He. She ends up telling him to take a break. He walks away. She takes the like gauze out of my mouth, the thing that was holding my mouth open so my mouth can break. As he's coming back, I say to him, literally I say to him, I believe in you. And like had I had to pump up my dentist and then he's oh, it was so. It was like one of the worst experiences of my life. Now that was him being authentic and vulnerable without authority. And that's what I mean, what you cannot do. So if I was his friend, if I was just his friend and he's telling a story about how hard this dental surgery is and that he just went through a really tough time and it was really difficult, that's fine because I'm not, I'm not giving him money in that moment to take care of me. We're just friends. So he can be vulnerable about being a dentist in that context. What he can't do is be vulnerable about being a dentist when I'm coming to him to be a dentist. So for people like in, on Instagram and on, on video, what you can do is like, let's say you are a, you're a boutique retailer who focuses in specifically helping people be really trendy and on point. You, you can talk about being vulnerable in man, having, you know, having kids, being homeschooled right now is rough or finding the time to get outside and exercise is hard. Things like that. What you can't do is it's really hard to find good looking things in my closet right now. You can't be vulnerable in the context of the place you are trying to be somebody's guide. Or I never can find anything to wear. That's fine. You can't I mean, you can't do that. You can't. It's fine in another context, but it's not fine in a fashion context. Now you can talk about previously having problems. So I used to struggle with this because that's empathy, but I sound awake to move forward. That's authority. So you can, when you talk about vulnerability in the context of the business that you have, it has to be in past tense. You cannot be in that same vulnerability now, but you can be vulnerable, authentic about any other area of your life as long as it does not diminish your authority in the fashion space. Does that make sense?

That's so helpful. Yeah. I can be vulnerable in the fact that I hate home, homeschooling my kids, and that I'm sick of cooking dinner and doing the dishes, but not that I struggle to dress myself every morning.

Yep. Yeah, perfect. And that's, it's the same thing. Like if you, if your customer wants to be trendy and on point, if you show yourself wearing sweatpants and not doing your hair, they better be really trendy sweatpants make like only trendy people would wear. But you're not, you're not wearing like bleach stained ones, right? Like, you're not doing that because that diminishes your authority. While it ups your empathy, it diminishes your authority. So you have to balance both of those well together.

That's helpful and it's once in a while, but it's not your regular. Like you're still always giving your customers something to aspire to. I think about that with like specifically boutique owners, you use photography, right? And now being in this weird situation we're in, photography changes a little bit. But the number one key is making sure those photos are styled. Like everything. Again, going back to you talking about aspirational, like, what is your customer aspiring to be? She's not aspiring to be Walmart. So you've got to up your game, right? You've got to be way better than Walmart. And then again, you're not Walmart on price either. Like, you're adding value. Like there's much so, so many key things that you've said today that I mean, absolutely hit the nail on the head for the brands that boutiques are trying to build. I really appreciate it.

Oh, good, good. Well, that's what I mean. We're all about, you know, helping especially small businesses like the, the, the majority of our clients are, are under a million. I mean, we deal with gigantic ones like Ford and Pantene and you know, U.S. olympic Committee and things like that. But we're not like, you know, but the majority of our, our people are small business owners and we, that's the backbone, truthfully, of our, of our economy. And we want them to succeed even more than anybody else. So hopefully this gives some tips and help in that.

So helpful. And I'm impressed by your knowledge of fashion that you've demonstrated like 30 times throughout this podcast. Boho, trendy chic. I'm sure you mentioned that a couple of times.

It's funny because actually, like, even when you were saying photography, I have one of my co workers wives is a great. She does fashion week here in Nashville and it's starting to take pictures for people who are like boutiques here in Nashville. And you know, she's having to rearrange her messaging as well in how to do that and what to sell and all, all that stuff. And that's the thing is I think too, in this, in this specific season, don't be afraid to change your messaging a little bit. Like, don't go completely off your brand. But empathy really says. I get that this is an interesting time. Please don't use the word unprecedented because I will shoot the next person that does. Because, like, don't be cliche. Right? But be authentic and real. That's another thing I would say about the authenticity. Authentic and real is don't be, don't be cliche. Don't fall into the cliches that everybody else is using right now. Even if you say, like, this is hard times, that's actually okay. Or like, I know everybody's struggling, that's fine. But when you hear weird words like unprecedented, that's just like, become overused and try to be authentic with the words that you would. Don't try to be clever with your words. That's the thing we always say. Don't be cute and clever. Be clear. Clarity should always trump cute and clever. Now, when you're talking the boutique, do you have to be cute? Yes, 100%. I get it. But not at the expense of clarity. Be clear. First, don't try to be fancy because that, that actually diminishes your authenticity when you try to write in prose and all these other things, unless that's who your brand is, just, just speak clearly. Speak very clearly to people. Be really real with the words that you use and you're going to have to see a better result.

So good. If you confuse, you lose.

Yes. Yes. That's our story. Brand.

I love it. All right, well, jj, talk to me about if anyone wants to follow up and obviously reading the Story Brand book or Marketing Made simple, tell us more about how they can get in touch with you and follow all the awesome things that you and Donald have going on.

Yeah. So you know, our company is obviously story brand, but we have, and I mentioned we do some online stuff and this is particularly directed at small businesses and small business leaders. And it's a thing called Business Made Simple University and it's where we put all of our online courses. So we put the story brand one where you actually can figure out your messaging itself and then the Marketing Made simple, which is how to create a sales funnel. So literally step by step of how to create a sales funnel and then a number of others. Right now we have, I think an enneagram course and a mission statement course and we're getting a proposals course coming, a communication course, negotiation. So those are all going to be going in there. And that's at business made simple university.com or bmsu.com and for your listeners, we actually have a BOGO code. So we have a code that is BMSU BH20. So BMSU BH20. And that's you can do a buy one, gift one and so you can go on with somebody else, you know, or give it for you and somebody on your staff that really helps you understand how to do how to create a clear message and a great sales funnel. So that's a buy one, gift one@B businessmadesimpleuniversity.com and the code is BMSUBH20.

Thank you so much for that. And we'll put that in the show notes too, so everyone can grab a chance at that link. We really appreciate that. J.J. before we part ways today, I always ask everyone on the podcast this question because I know that besides running businesses and speaking to thousands of people like you do and coaching small businesses and leading the life that you live, everything we do here has a bigger purpose.

Right.

And so I always ask people, you know, 20 years down the road, 30 years down the road, and we're past the pandemic stage that we're in right now, clearly, and we're looking back at the life that we lived and the businesses that we helped create and the legacy that we want to leave behind. And I just want to know, what is the thing that you want people to remember most about what you created and how you lived? And what's the thing you want people to say about how they knew you and who you were?

Wow. I think for me, and this is just. This is so contextual right now to what I do, but also just kind of who I am in general is that. That he was a great guide. You know, there's. There's a whole other thing we didn't get into about story, that the four primary characters that are in any story are really Hero, victim, villain, guide. Those are the. Those are the roles that we see in movies. And part of why we see those in movies is because those are the roles we see in ourselves. We all play those at different times in our lives. Hero, victim, villain, or guide. And the. The victim is. There are real victims in the world, but so many of us play the victim and the victim. Actually, stories are not written about victims. Victims in the story of. Are there simply to make the hero look good or the villain look bad. That's it. They take energy from those people or give energy, and that's it. So I really don't ever want to play a victim. You know, there are moments I am, but I. It's victim is always a temporary state. The villain is somebody who actually always try. Has a history of backstory pain and is trying to get revenge on that pain. And so they want to hurt. Hurt other people the way that they were hurt. And I never want to play the villain. The hero is somebody who has maybe experienced some pain in their backstory, but then now is trying to redeem that for themselves and for others. And so they are. But they are kind of constantly up and down in the story. In any good movie, you see the hero, like, win the day and then lose the girl and then be excited and then, like, fall into another trap, right? They're up and down, but ultimately their job is to redeem the pain that they've experienced for themselves and others. And then the guide is the one who comes alongside. The guide is the strongest character in the movie and helps the hero win the day. That's all that they do. And I think for us as humans, what I would love to see is help everybody kind of stay as much out of the victim and villain roles and live in the hero and guide roles and really try to then ultimately become the guide. And I think if on my tombstone, if they could say he was the ultimate guide, that really my. The way that I lived my life was about helping other people win the day, Whether that was in business or in my friendships or family or personal life. I think that would be, like, the best thing people could ever say about me.

Jj, you're a light. Thank you so much. For being with us today.

Oh, thank you. Too Foreign.

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