How to Drive Traffic to Your Online Store

Hey, it's episode number 320. And today we're talking all things traffic. Eric Huberman is the founder of Hawk Media, one of the fastest growing agencies in the United States. He's a world renowned expert and speaker and coach. And we're going to get into the nitty gritty today when it comes to driving traffic and what metrics really matter in your e commerce business. So the numbers your agency is giving you, what ones should you be looking at the most? Is it your roas? Is it your customer lifetime value? Is it the clicks? Where's the traffic coming from in your funnels? We're getting into the nitty gritty today when it comes to funnels and Facebook ads. So get ready to meet Eric Huberman, the CEO and founder of Hawk Media. Let's talk about your business strategy and the juicy details of what actually works from mainstream fashion to fashion on Main street and the entire ecosystem behind it. How do we scale your company and do it with the balance and the happiness that we all seek? Let's hear from those insiders, experts and strategists that actually make it happen. I'm your host, Ashley Alderson from the Boutique Hub and I can't wait to chat. Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast this week and we are also on video on YouTube if you're catching us here today. I'm joined by Eric Huberman, the founder and CEO of Hawk Media. We're going to talk about all things traffic today. Eric, are you ready?

I'm ready.

All right, let's do a little bit of background in case our guests have not had an opportunity to meet you yet. Really? This is your jam traffic. Working with all kinds of e commerce brands, you help some of the fastest growing companies in the United states. You are Forbes 30 under 30, one of the fastest growing companies yourself. Tell me about how you got into this business.

Yeah, I started out of college in real estate in 2008 when the entire banking industry collapsed and after making 350 bucks that year, started working on online businesses as a kind of side hustle and ended up launching an online music company that I built for two years, got to profitability and actually passed off to another CEO to pursue two other e commerce companies consecutively, both in the fashion space and ended up building both of those, selling them, and then about eight years ago started advising and consulting for a bunch of brands. Saw how broken the whole marketing industry and e comm industry was in terms of trying to get access to great talent and great marketing and it just Was really a cluster to try to get through everything and so got sick of the ecosystem, decided to build my own little SWAT team. Started, started with seven people, each with their own expertise, like a Facebook marketer, an email marketer, web designer. All the specific points I knew were important for these companies and went back to these brands I was working with at the time, which were like Red Bull, Verizon, HP as well as a lot of startups. And said, hey, everything's a la carte month to month cheaper than hiring in house, but basically we can spin up exactly what you need when you need it and ebb and flow as you need it. And so that's how we started and on the sort of mission of accessibility to great marketing for everyone, we we built and now seven and a half years later, we're about 220 people manage marketing for about 600 brands. Have a venture arm where we invest in marketing technology to compliment what we're doing, as well as a capital arm where we actually give financing to our clients for working capital as they scale. So I've really tried to build out that mission more and more.

I love that. And what was your mission? Affordable marketing for everyone. Is that what you said? Or access to quality marketing for everyone.

It's really about accessibility. So affordability is part of that for sure. And we try to stay super cost effective, but it's really like it's the combination of accessible and great. So accessibility, great marketing because everybody has access to marketing, it just might not be very good. And that's been my biggest frustration is the amount of snake oil salesmen. And you know, 99% of marketers are just not good at what they do and the few that are good are inaccessible. So trying to bridge that gap was really the mission.

Can we talk about that for a second? Snake oil salesman. I feel like it is so common today and a lot of the clients that we work with see this exact same thing. Everyone's going to come and it's like a scale, scare them and save them tactic, whether that's Facebook ads or whatever marketing. And there's a lot of agencies that have taken advantage of brands that we've worked with. Talk to me about those red flags. How do you spot a snake oil salesman before they get you?

Yeah, I mean one, I love seeing people like this is probably the most common, like rudimentary snake oil salesman in Facebook and in advertising that I think a lot of probably your listeners will run into where it's like, oh yeah, we got this client 100x on their advertising in one week and we can do it for you. It's like if you can put in a dollar and make 100 and you can do that with any type of consistency, you're not boasting about it on Facebook, you're just running that yourself and making billions of dollars. The nuance in there of how much BS goes into that statement, whether it's they did a retargeting campaign for two days on an existing email list that was already going to buy and they did a Memorial Day sale. All the things that come into that, you're like, you took a window and what was probably a losing campaign and had one day of success on an interesting graph. Like, it's, it's just there's a lot of that braggadociousness that just is fake. You know, it's, it. What I usually say is if you're looking to hire marketers, hire people that have done what you're trying to do over the next two years, you're not going to necessarily want to hire someone that's done, you know, like the head of marketing at Nike cannot usually help a brand new shoe company. They have a little bit of guidance, but they're not going to be tactical. But someone that took a shoe company from where you are to two years, where you want to be in two years, that's what you want. And hopefully they can continue to grow and stay with you. But that is frankly, from a business standpoint, you're looking for those sort of two, three, four, five year executives that can get you to that next phase and then hopefully they grow with you and they can stay or frankly you sometimes bring in that next executive that's then taken it from there to the next phase and that's running a business. And with agencies it's the same thing. The first thing to look at is who have you taken from here to where we want to be and what role did you play in that? And then be real, was it that they're good at what they did or did they just jump on board a rocket ship that was going to grow on their own regardless of their agency? So. Because there's a lot of that too. So yeah, it's really just figuring out where that is. And that's the first part in terms of like hiring or bringing on someone.

Yeah, I think that's huge. And then also talk on that level around fee structure as well. Like we see a lot of people that will say, oh my gosh, I got this roas. But then they're charging this just crazy fee every single month and they aren't figuring any of that into it. And at the end of the day then these brands are losing money when they're paying this agency.

Yeah. So first off, there's a couple of things there that are actually gonna be able to contrary to that. So one roas. Be super careful. Looking at what ROAS is my favorite example of this just happened. So Facebook and iOS 14. Facebook just changed all their tracking from 28 day to 7 day window. Meaning you used to track how much you made in 28 days of running an ad. Now you track seven days. So everyone's looking at the ROAS and going like everything fell through the four our businesses dying. What's going on? It's like no, no, you're tracking changed. It's not your actual business. And people forget that your business is not a spreadsheet. And all the nuance of that data is super important. And by the way, we are in like week long, multi week long debates and arguments with clients that just do not understand. We're like, you keep talking about how your ROAS is worse than it was before iOS 14. Your ROAS is a, it's a different number. It's not even, it's not comparable. And so that is super important to remember when you're looking at how the performance of your agency is because it goes the other way too where your agency might be reporting roas but it's all retargeting. So it's all your existing audience that they're just retargeting and driving sales from people that have already been engaged with you. They're not building your funnel, they're not doing anything else. And so yeah, your ROAS looks great and you're never going to grow. And so. And it's going to milk over time and start to diminish. And like those are the things. Like you can't just stare at your roas. That's where so many people make a mistake. And then in terms of paying agencies don't ever do a rev share ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. It incentivizes the wrong thing for the agency. There are only two type of rev share agencies. Con artists or bankrupt. Like it's just. And argue with me over time, every major rev share agency has gone bankrupt. This, this is the only nuance of this. Are really, really particular agencies that only take on a few clients a year and are like super invested in put there are a few of those that have done well, most don't. But a Few do. And, and then affiliate agencies that are just running off other people being not taking any money unless they sell to and they're just middlemanning that those two can work other than that like standard marketing agencies taking a rev share in this there's a, it's a really big picture kind of reason. But to try to make it quick, you're basically, you're, you think you're aligned on incentive but you're not. Because long term revenue growth happens when you build a good base that doesn't necessarily create short term revenue growth. So the only way to really align with a client and an agency on a rev share is a very long term contract. So then you're getting married before you ever date the agency. So that's bad enough of itself. And then number two still, when that contract comes up, let's say you sign a three year contract. This happened to one stop which was a massive rev share agency that ended up going bankrupt at the end of their three year contracts. Every time they were costing too much money. What you just alluded to, they were crushing it for their clients. But their rev share was so high they'd be like yeah, now we're going to just bring this in house. Thanks for setting it up. And so they churn these massive successful clients every time they got them to scale. And so you for the, it's not a sustainable agency business model either when you do the right thing. And again the other way to do it is to con your clients to just not really spend any money, take no risk, milk their existing audiences until they're gone and make the rev share that way. And that's the only really sustainable way to make it work. So don't do a rev share and then on fees, you know, it really should. This is where we get in debates on the media side which is super important to think about. So if I'm man so we charge between 8 and 20% depending on the scale of the media spend, the percentage goes down. So let's say 10 just for round numbers. So if you're spending half a million dollars a month with me and paying me 50 grand, I have people that come, this happens and they go hey, we could hire, we could hire two full time people in house or three full time people. Like we can build this out. And I was like well we are using multiple people so that's not really a debate. But they're like okay, well we want you to go to 8% so we want to drop you from 50 to 40 grand. And I'm like, okay, fine, we are going to spend more, less time on it. That's just how we do things. It's a function of time. But you're now trying to save 10 grand, but we're earning you five times your advertising spend right now based on how it's performing. So you're spending half a million dollars a month. We're making you $2.5 million a month, and you're worried about my $10,000? I think you're focused on the wrong thing right now. And that's where, like, when it's working, it can be expensive, but you also have to look at, like, what the upside is. Like, you're, you're, you're optimizing for a percentage of a percentage of your sales, assuming it's going well. And so agency fees, if things are going well, shouldn't be that much of a factor. And when people start to nickel and dime us, they end up screwing themselves because they're like, yeah, like, listen, it's really simple. Like, we're going to just have to pay less attention to you if you take away our fees. But if that's what you want, and then it goes, you know, slightly downhill, and it's like, yeah, you know, now we're only getting you four times. So you just saved ten grand but lost half a million dollars. Good job. Well done.

I think there's a balance, and it probably comes down to the size of the client, to be honest. Like, if I'm thinking about a small business owner, there's a lot of them that, like, they have to know that they can make money at the end of the day. Like, if your clients making 2.4 million, that's great, right? They've got margin in there. Even.

Almost. Yeah. And I was gonna say, even on a small scale, let's say we're talking about five grand a month and making 25 grand a month. Just even there. If you're arguing with someone over a thousand bucks, you're looking at the wrong thing. You should be optimizing. And by the way, unless it's a bad agency, if the agency is no good and they're not worth it, they're not worth it. But, but squeezing your agency, I actually think is a bad thing. Like, that's not what you should be like. The clients that get the most out of partners are the ones that support them. And don't. I don't. Like, I don't. I do it with our vendors. I don't argue fees. I don't screw with Them, but then I lean on them and I'm like, you better perform or I shouldn't be working with them. That's my whole thing. And that's. I'm dealing with that with a vendor of ours right now that continues to raise their price every three months on me. And they got to the point now where I'm like, do I really want this? I'm not going to say no. Like, I'm not going to say no. We're sticking to your price. Because then I'm just going to be their lowest paying client. They're not going to care about me. But I'm also. So I'm either going to do it or not is how I look at it.

Yeah. Is it an investment or an expense? I think that mindset has to be the very first thing that you check off. Like the agency should be an investment. Right?

All marketing should be an investment. If it's not an investment, don't do it.

Right. So let's go back to what you just talked about a second ago with Roas. Right, So I think there's like a gap maybe in reporting sometimes or maybe it's the client has to have an understanding of what reporting should be happening. So you can't rely on RO as a loan. We have to talk about new customer acquisition. But let's just say there's someone that's brand new to Facebook ads, they're brand new to hiring. You know, do what you do best and hire the rest. What should they be looking at in each stage of the funnel with Facebook ads? What should be being reported on so they know that they aren't being taken advantage of?

Well, I think just in general you need to look at how much are you spending on marketing, how much revenue are you driving, how much growth are you getting? Because you don't want to be on a hamster wheel either. So is your company growing? And like, start there, start with the basics. Because a lot of times the nuance, like when I look at Roas, when I look at the individual optimizations of Facebook, I think of them as great indicators on how to optimize. Because if you're any type of consumer business and you can't and Facebook isn't working, you've got bigger problems. So it's about like, those are indicators to help me optimize the ads on Facebook, not whether I should use Facebook or not. Like, it's not about like turning on and off Facebook. It's about optimizing Facebook and informing you on where else you need to Optimize, like, am I converting at a good rate? Am I, you know, are people getting, you know, bouncing from the homepage, like, optimizing everything else, too, is super important, but I think that's where people get lost. And again, separating the idea of, like, top of the funnel, meaning, like, new people that have never heard of your company coming in versus people that you're retargeting that have already know who you are, because that's gonna have very different performance indicators. So it's. Yeah, a constant. It's taking a step back and just understanding the logic of marketing versus getting locked up in these spreadsheets. That's where people screw up. Marketing is not just a mathematical equation.

Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about iOS 14. You talked about just the change in tracking. Right? There was. I think there was a lot of changes happening for the last several weeks. Right now, our ads are probably the most cost effective they've ever been. All of a sudden this week, things have really shifted on a dime for us. But I think a lot of people kind of got scared in the market and stepped back and are trying to figure all of this out. What other changes do you see just, like, in the shift of how people are approaching paid advertising because of what's happening with iOS 14?

Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting. I mean, short term, it's always painful when these changes happen because everyone's scrambling to figure out what the new way of working is. I think it's going to be really painful for anyone that just relies on Facebook, and I think that's been a mistake. That's like any marketing. Think of it as a portfolio strategy. Like, you want to be diversified. You don't want to have all your eggs in one basket and everyone that has all their eggs in the Facebook basket. Both Facebook agencies and brands that are only on Facebook are going to hurt because they're relying on this thing versus it's spread out. And so that piece of their business, that's Facebook will shift in ebb a little bit, but they can counteract that with other pieces of their business. I think over time, it's going to be okay. I think Facebook will diminish a little bit. I think it's going to hurt Facebook a little bit, but not a lot. I just think there's going to be a little bit of a shift away from it. But the key thing I keep reminding our clients, our team, et cetera about is, like, consumer spending didn't go down. Facebook ad tracking did. So it's like people are still spending as much money and buying shit. You just have to reach them in a different way and track it in a different way. It's not some devastating blow to business, it's just a difference in strategy. And so shifting that strategy is where the pain comes in. But that should be a couple months.

Yeah. Do you see people moving more toward like back to Google focus, back to SEO as a whole? Is it TikTok ads, is it Pinterest? Like where else do you see people now investing in paid strategy?

Yeah, all the above. But I actually think a better lifetime value strategy is really where people are winning. Owning their clients, merchandising, keeping your customers so that they keep coming back and buying more things that you offer them. So email marketing, sms, chatbots, content, things that keep people in your ecosystem I think will continue to be more and more and more important because I think there's been this rush the past decade for customer acquisition and it's getting really expensive and it's going to get harder and harder. And so we've had this sort of gold rush of E commerce that I think at some point sustainability becomes much more important.

Yeah, I can totally appreciate that. Right. 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your list. It's been easy to neglect that. And so I think about like post pandemic life that relationships became more important than ever. And that feels very cliche, like authenticity, relationships. Like we've been saying that for a long time. But I truly think in marketing that has really made a huge shift. Post pandemic pandemic. How do you see brands optimizing that? Like where maybe they didn't have a face of the company before, they have to now, or they have to have a more personal feel than they've had in the past. Do you see that trend as well?

I do, I think. I don't think that's everyone though. I think it's people ask me because I do a lot of personal brand stuff and you get out and about and do a lot of networking and they're like, do you have to do that to be successful? You don't have to do anything to be successful. There's different paths that different people can take. So I think also being careful of not doing what everyone else is doing all the time because you can just chase down and half ass bunch of stuff. Just be really good at the pieces you are. If you have a great personal story and it cannot lend to the brand, do it. If you are completely irrelevant to the brand, then stay irrelevant.

I like it. I like it. Email. Is email too crowded? How can you optimize it?

Email is not too crowded. Email. So pre pandemic email had not seen a decline in performance in over a decade. The entire time I've been doing email marketing, we had not seen any declines. Improvement, but no declines. And then when the pandemic hit, it skyrocketed in a good way. So like everyone being stuck at home, they looked at their emails, they're looking for stuff to do. I think that'll subside a little bit, but it's not going back. Like it's not worse. And so email marketing has been one of the biggest drivers for E commerce, the entirety of E commerce, and it still is. So it's just an important thing to do.

What do you think strategy is changing with that?

What's that?

Is there strategy that's changing with that.

Post pandemic it's much more automation. It's even pre pandemic it's much more automation and nuanced like personalization so that you basically in most email platforms can set triggers now based on what people do, their behaviors or actions that they take, et cetera. And the more you build that out so it feels like you're talking to me directly, the better you're going to perform. Versus email blasts. Don't send email blasts often. Every once in a while you can do a Memorial Day sale or whatever, but in general don't do email blasts.

Oh man, you're preaching to the choir. We just did an entire podcast episode on that. Specifically on, you know, treating every single person as if they have a sign around their neck that says make me feel important. If I'm a size small and you send me something beautiful that's only available in large and extra large, I'm pissed because you just wasted my time. So segment me and send me something just for the smalls or just for the discount Debbies or whoever that customer is that needs to be spoken to most.

Exactly.

How about E commerce? Let's just talk about general E comm site optimization for a small brand. Do you feel like there are certain CRO things that are typically missed? Are there ways we can optimize that are low hanging fruit that most people people don't see?

Well, SMS is another thing. Sms. We invested in a great platform called postscript too that has become like the number one partner to shopify on this. It's something that's missed. It's 10 times more effective than email marketing and still something people just glaze over is Like a nice to have versus a have to have. And like when you're competing, which you are online, you have to have some of these things. So I think that's a big one. And then collecting emails and phone numbers. Right when people hit your site for some reason still to this day, people shy away from it. We have no evidence that it's a bad thing. It's only a good thing. Meaning people don't bounce away from your site because you're asking it. They might let them exit it. If they don't want to give it to you, that's fine. But you'll start collecting a lot of contact that will drive a lot more sales. So that's super important. And then just sticking to normal checkout processes and things that are standard now so that people are used to it and it's easy the moment people have to learn something on your site, the moment they bounce. So keep it simple, helpful.

And speaking of postscript, a lot of our customers use postscript, so I think that's really helpful to hear. They love that automation and anything that's fully integrated with Shopify is super helpful.

Yeah, we're their biggest partner and one of their first investors.

Awesome. What are the things? Let's say three things that smaller businesses can learn from some of the largest brands that you work with.

Three things. One, so content. The content is unmeasurable, like not unmeasurable. Really hard to measure ROI from generating content. But if you can build a great content strategy where you're bringing people in to engage in your brand above and beyond a purchase decision, but still highlights that sort of aspirational solution you're trying to create as a brand so that people, let's say you're a beauty company and you have great beauty tips and you know, aesthetic tips, whatever it is that you people can go tap into, that inherently is going to create more lifetime value of a customer because they're going to come in and engage with you above and beyond when they just went to to buy something and they will inherently buy more. They'll convert at a higher rate. And also content is much more shareable than products. People will send content to each other much more often than products. And so you get that word of mouth a lot bigger too. And it really, if you do a good job on content, can create a much stronger base for your company. And a lot of the bigger brands we see because on doctor and sort of Facebook ads and that stuff, it starts to cap out in mid eight figures. You can make a 20, 30, 40, 50 $60 million business and then it gets really hard. And if you're lucky, it's 60. If you're unlucky, it's 10. And then you're like, well, what do we do now? And that's when you have to build a real brand. And that's where content comes in and community and building out these things that actually create a great base. Which by the way, if you do these things as well, then When Facebook changes, iOS changes, it's all these things that happen. It's not devastating, it's just a little hiccup. And it's devastating when all you rely on is that direct response funnel.

Yeah, talk to me more specifically about content. So we're talking about content that educates, content that motivates, informs is aspirational. We're talking about TikTok, we're talking about Pinterest.

So the platform's agnostic. It just depends on where your users want to engage in. It can be on your website, can be on the social platforms, etc. But the content is around the aspiration of your brand. So if your brand is there to teach people, then educational is great. If your brand is there to give people energy, that is Red Bull. Your content should all be about high energy stuff because people then can watch your content, view your content, whatever it is, and then go, I want energy like that. I'm gonna go, I'm aspiring for energy. I'm drink a Red Bull. And it's the same thing. Like if you're, you know, if you're Home Depot, the content is probably educational because that's kind of how they stand. It's like, hey, we know you want to make your house look better. So here's some great tips on how to, you know, improve your kitchen. Oh, wait, now you're gonna need to buy a new stove. Interesting. We sell those. Like that's the idea is like creating content that like really supports your products, but also creates content that even if they don't want to buy from you, you're giving them value. And they're probably going to inherently. And it doesn't have to be so direct as what I just mentioned about a stove. It could literally be like, you know, top 10 places to build a house in the United States. But if someone's looking at building a house inherently, at some point, they might want to come into Home Depot. It's that kind of stuff.

Talk to me about fashion brands. How do you see that playing into their hand?

So it depends on the fashion brand. If it's High fashion, it can literally be. It depends. Like, activewear. Good example. You can be giving health and wellness tips. You know, if someone's running activewear, they might want to. They want to feel more active. And so top 10 best hikes in the country, top 10 best diet plans, whatever it is. Things that. If you're looking to be active and you want to buy activewear, here are the things that. Other things that you might be aspiring for too. And we're going to create content around it.

Yeah, a lot of them.

High fashion, it could be travel tips, dining tips. It could be things that, like, if you're dressing up in this, you know, couture dress, you might be going somewhere cool. So, like, let's give you some cool places to go. Let's talk about the things to complement it. Let's talk about jewelry brands, let's talk about beauty tips, things that go with this aspiration that you're having to look your best.

Do you think that Hand in Hand plays into building a community? A lot of our customers use Facebook groups. They're super into insta stories. It's very personal. How else can you build a community with that content?

I mean, social. Again, having social and then actual experiential. I know the past year we haven't done it. We haven't been in person, but I mean, fabfitfun is a great example of this. They literally throw their fabfitfun, like events where they have hundreds of people come out and build boxes and hang out and meet the stars that are involved with them and test the products like you can actually get people together and that it's a really good way to capture, as you said, the 8020 rule that 20% super fans, or even, let's say the 5% of ultra fans that are like, really down to buy everything and spread the word about everything you do.

Yeah. Do you have a very like. Do you have a model or a funnel for your superfans? How you think brands should really, like, enhance how they interact with those super fans?

I think you have to get to scale where those superfans are actually significant because I think in the beginning, it's not worth the time. If you're. If you've got 100 customers and five. Five of them are super fans, you can, but, like, you got to be careful about what that's taken away from. But over time, yeah, I mean, it's having unique products, unique experiences, unique launches that they can get into when they really want to get involved versus just everyone else getting the Basics.

Okay, I love that. Any last minute tips for small businesses that are trying to have quality marketing today that are maybe on the edge of being able to hire an agency but want to do as much as they can to get there first? What other tips would you give them.

To get there first?

Maybe they can't afford an agency yet. Maybe they're on the bubble. They're trying to figure that out, grow a little bit organically before they don't.

Do it till you have ten grand a month that you can spend for a long period of time. Like, don't you gotta. Let's say you should have 60 grand ready to spend on agencies, you know, six months, 10 grand a month with hiring anyone in house or an agency. Like, you need to be at the point where you can consistently sustain 10 grand a month in marketing before that. I like partnerships. I think that's a really good way to do it. Find people that want to reach your audience and you want to reach theirs and find ways to collaborate. Whether it's co hosting a contest or co hosting an event, or just cross promoting each other, it's free and it's a great way to find those compliments. And that's been a huge way I've grown my own business. Partnerships is a very understated, very big way to grow.

Yeah. Do you take that hand in hand with influencers as well? So we work with a lot of, I would say, more affordable fashion brands and small business retailers. Influencers are a piece of that game. How do you see that playing out?

Yeah, I think influencers are great. It's the Wild west. So the problem with influencers is it's not scalable. But in those early days when you're just trying to get off the ground, I think it's great. And it should always be a small piece of your marketing strategy. But it's not going to be the main driver most of the time, unless you get lucky, which I don't really like to run businesses on luck as much as I can avoid it. I'll take luck, but I don't try to pursue it, let's put it that way. I love that.

All right, so the opposite of luck is each week. If I'm a small business owner and I'm sitting down and I'm looking at what are my most important metrics this week to know that I'm on my way to scale. What am I looking at?

Yeah, I mean growth. New customer acquisition and growth in new customers and then retention. How many customers are repurchasing and what can I do to drive those two numbers? Your lifetime value and your cost requires. So how can I get more customers cheaper? And how can I drive a higher lifetime value, more money that they spend with me, higher share of wallet. Those are the two numbers that matter in any business. CAC and ltv.

Perfect. Any last minute tips, Eric? For small businesses that are listening, stick with it.

It's a roller coaster. The biggest thing I've learned in business is that as the business owner, you're always going to deal with the biggest problems of the business and those never go away. Take Apple as an example. They're dealing with antitrust and, you know, Covid and trade wars and everything else that's happening. Like it doesn't go away. So just remember what you signed up for because once I think you accept it, your sort of resilience goes through the roof. Because then when you're like, yeah, I'm going to deal with problems, that's part of this. When the problem arises, you're like, yeah, of course there's always a problem. There's always going to be that. It's how it goes and marketing is going to be one of them. And it's always a moving target. But once you accept that, it's a lot more fun.

If it were easy, everyone would do it, right?

Amen.

Eric, thanks so much for joining us today. Your tips were awesome. Much appreciated. Congrats on your success and we will stay in touch.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

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