Should I Sell My Business?

It's episode number 308 with a true leader for women in this industry, my friend, Lorinda Van Neukirk of Lucky Chuck and formerly of Gypsy Soul. You guys are so lucky this week to learn from someone who I see as such a mentor in this industry, someone who really, I think, paved the way for women in Western, in retail, in wholesale, someone who did something that had never been done before and built an incredible brand that unfortunately no longer exists. But you will remember if this is your jam in the industry as we begin to talk about it today. We're talking to Lorinda Van Newkirk, the founder of Gypsy Soul and Lucky Chuck today and many other companies along the way. And we're going to talk about her journey of being a serial entrepreneur, starting multiple companies, finding her partner Amy, and building Gypsy Soul to be a mega mogul inside of the Western industry, what it was like to sell that company and now reinventing herself to start another brand, Lucky Chuck. Guys, Lorinda is a firecracker. She is a woman on fire, a woman with a mission. Anyone in the Western industry definitely knows her name. And I want to encourage you, even if you're not someone from the Western industry, please listen to this episode because there's a lot of value when it comes to what is the end goal with your business? Are you going to sell your business? Are you going to pass your business on? How are you going to reinvent yourself down the road? Or what is your ultimate goal? Lorinda tells it like it is, and I think there's tons of nuggets that you are going to come to appreciate inside of this episode. So let's chat. Get ready to meet my friend, Lorinda Van Newkirk. Let's talk about your business strategy and the juicy details of what actually works, from mainstream fashion to fashion, fashion on Main street and the entire ecosystem behind it. How do we scale your company and do it with the balance and the happiness that we all seek? Let's hear from those insiders, experts and strategists that actually make it happen. I'm your host, Ashley Alderson from the Boutique Hub, and I can't wait to chat.

Oh, hey, guys. Welcome back to this week's Pineapple podcast. And this week is both in video and audio version, so you can catch the audio on YouTube and the video on YouTube. But I am so excited if I say that I feel like I have my soul sister on the podcast this week. Is that a little cliche for this conversation?

Probably. Probably a little bit. Okay, I. I will. I Will take that anytime I can get it.

Oh, man. Lorinda Van Dukirk, you have been someone that I think of as such a shining light in the western industry and in retail industry, in the wholesale industry. Like, you've paved such a path, I think, for so many people to follow. I've always looked at you as kind of a mentor. And so I'm so excited that you're on the show today because we've got some serious rabbit holes to go down, but you have some serious stories to tell as a serial entrepreneur that has definitely been there, done that. So again, thanks for joining me today.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I feel like I don't get to. I don't get out much or, you know, I guess we don't have to get out anymore because we can just do these. So. But it's, it's fun. It's so fun to visit with everybody in the industry. So thanks for having me.

I appreciate it. You are so welcome. It is certainly a small world in this industry. I've learned a lot about you. Even just chatting before we jumped on the podcast today that I'm really excited to share just kind of as a little bit of backstory, and I'll let you jump in and kind of finish this for me. But you've had several businesses that you've started and sold along the way. You've had great partners, you've had wins, you've had losses, you have reinvented yourself a number of ways. And today you help other people with whatever their venture is.

Tell me a little bit more just.

About the background of the companies that you've had and then we'll dive a little deeper into each one.

So in college, I started a mobile tack trailer called One Stop Cowboy Shop. And I used to do about 48 shows a year for I think, seven years. And I ended up selling that company. I literally woke up at the Reno Cutting Futurity one morning and I in my living quarters trailer and was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm selling this company. So I sold that company. And then my second company, I had.

A.

Jewelry business that I put, put the jewelry can speak. I put the jewelry in day spas up and down the coast of California. So every other week I would go there and switch off the jewelry. We'd have jewelry parties, you know, just something fun. And at that time, you know, day spas were all the rage. And being on the coast in California, it was a great mix and then.

I moved to Texas and we're going to talk about what happened in Texas next. But let me go back to the first business. So a mobile tack trailer, 48 shows a year is a lot. Yes, I, and I know that you continue to do shows with later businesses that you own, but let me just start there. For anyone who's listening that has a mobile related business, I'm certain that you must have some tips on what it takes to make it as a mobile business.

Well, it was a little bit different time then because I don't even know if we had. We, I think you, you, we just had a website like that just literally happened. So which I still tell people to do this even though it's old school. So every event I was at, I put flyers in every bathroom, on every walk through fence. I would make phone calls to let certain people know that I was there. There was no email to send. You know, if they had, if they didn't add in whatever paper. So like the Roper sports News in California went out, you know, I would make sure and put a list of where I was going to be at. You know, it was all old school. But at the end of the day you did everything you could. You checked every box and at least one of the, somebody would see one of those things and come see you, you know, and then you always with the flyers at the bathroom or by the food, you, you know, you could let people know you were there.

That still matters today, honestly. So before my whole boutique club life, I was in economic development and we actually had a huge indoor arena that we ran in North Dakota. And so we had events, rodeos, rovings, whatever, every single weekend. And one of the most important things I felt like vendors could do is exactly what you're saying. You had flyers by the bathroom and the food. But if you could convince the producer to do grab bags with people entered and you got a little coupon or something like that, or you called ahead and got in touch with the chamber of commerce or a Main street association so they knew you were coming. Old school. Marketing is not old school. It's still.

You still have to do everything. And, and with that, you know, I, even later in life when I would go to big shows or nfr, whatever, you know, I, I would be around vendors and they would complain about the show being bad or with my wholesale company, Gypsy Soul, you know, vendors would complain and I'm like, it's, it's not their job to bring you all the customers. Yes, we're giving You a place to sell. They're giving you a platform to stand on and say, here we are.

Come by.

It's our job to get to the customers, too, and suck them in or bring them in too. You know, you have to do. You have to do your part.

I would 100% agree with that. That's still true today. And I think about wholesale vendors and boutiques. What are you doing away from the show that is going to drive traffic to you when you're at the show? And it's relationship marketing. It's postcards in the mail. It's everything else. It's a text, it's an email, it's a Dropbox file. It's whatever you can get people's hands on before the show actually starts.

I always. There's one thing, and I don't. I. I don't know where this store was at. I've just never forgotten this lady that walked into our showroom one year at Denver. And this is when Gypsy Soul was the heyday. I mean, I was thinking we were in every store. We were in over a thousand doors. So I mean, how many stores are there left, you know, when you get in your bubble?

But anyways, this lady walked in and.

She says, well, I keep getting these postcards from you guys in the mail. And I keep having people. I've had people asking for three years to carry these shoes. I guess maybe we should carry them. And it was just like, first, I'm like, people have been asking you to carry this product for three years and you're not. That's a problem. But regardless, that just proved. Proved to me that you have to just constantly checking all those boxes, mailers, emails, flyers, grab bags. You know, we could go on for days what you could do. But it took that lady three years to decide. And then she turned into a great customer.

So, yeah, you could never underestimate bombarding people because people do have to see something an average of seven times before they take action for three or three years. So you. And we'll get to Gypsy still in a sec. So you had the first business, you sold the first business?

Yes.

And then all of a sudden jumped into a second business. What was that transition like? Do you feel like even as a college kid, you learned a lot about that first rule of business and the first sale you had?

Well, I had already started selling jewelry in. In my tap trailer. You know, I could feel myself gravitating, you know, and I had logo clothes, clothes and baseball caps and had my own line of saddles. And I had headstalls that I custom made. You know, I'm just. I always tried to make something different than everybody else, just a little something because, you know, it's just like being on Instagram. How many Aztec shirts does every store need to carry? Like maybe make it a sequence act, Aztec, I don't know. But, you know, you have to have. You have to be different or present it different or give a different emotion or, you know, just a different story. But I had already. I had already made or had already started having a clientele for my jewelry. And I called it Lorenda's, and that's all I called it. So when I sold the business, she didn't want the lady that I sold it to. She wasn't a big jewelry person. So I kept that part. And then I had already. I was already working with a few day spas and then just took it from there, you know, And I said, I will provide the case. I will provide the inventory. I will leave you a cash box for it with cash in it, you know, so they can make change. I provided all that for them. And I said, but if there's cash missing or jewelry missing, you will pay for it. And then, you know, which it did really well.

We very.

I very rarely had anything missing, so it didn't matter, but it just. I just went with it. Like, I just. I don't really ever think about it. I just do it.

Yeah, you have the true entrepreneurial spirit. Right. Where you weren't risk averse. Yeah, yeah, I just.

I don't want to go get a. I don't want to go work somewhere. I'd rather work 16 hours a day for half the money than work nine to five for more money.

Isn't that every entrepreneur? So how did you start at that point? So you had jewelry and then you got into shoes. You got into what became gypsy soul. What was that transition?

When I moved to Texas, I had sold the jewelry company to another lady that lived on the Central Coast. And then I moved to Texas and I was kind of selling some jewelry and I was doing the jewelry counter again at Tuskegee's and working with Michael and Anissa. So. And that grew into, like, their whole jewelry counter. And then I was at a rope, and I don't even know which roping I was at, but I saw a girl with some cowhide flip flops that she glued on there and some studs, and I just thought, hmm, those are kind of cool, but I can make those way cooler. So I just went to Payless and bought all like, I don't know, 30 pairs of shoes. I don't even know why I love that many. And found a saddle guy up in Denton and called him on the phone, told him my idea and drove up there and we sat down and started sketching things out. And I mean, what was really cool is he was like this little saddle guy that didn't really make anything. He'd been driving the same truck for 15 years and by the time I outgrew him, he bought a brand new truck and paid off his house. We were making so many pairs of Payless flip flops. I was driving all over the DFW area, get it going to every Payless shoe store to get flip flops because that's where it started. And then I, then I started going to market and I would buy them wholesale. And then I was buying so many. I was. Then I started getting them with my name and then I started going to China and making my own.

So, yeah, I want to talk about that process, like, specifically, like, at what point did you feel like, okay, I'm outgrowing this process now I need to go into manufacturing. And I know like just the manufacturing process as a whole is intimidating for a lot of people. Even, like, where do I start? I've got this product, I think it's going to do great. Now where do I go with it?

So what. We were working with a company out of Southern California called Groove. And I don't know, they used to be a big flip flop. They were like a competitor to Yellow Box or something way back in the day. And we really liked the flip flop they made. So our, the first round of our. When they. The Gypsy souls first were popular, they said groove on. There's probably out that people out there that still have those original pair. So then I got, I went to them and said, will you private, private, private label for me. And so they did. And what was the game changer was Amy and I were doing a photo shoot in the stockyards in Fort Worth. We were supposed to have a huge shipment of shoes come in like that week. And I got a phone call from the guy at Groove and he's like, your shipment has been canceled. And I'm like, what? Because if I don't have any shoes, I can't sell any shoes. I can't make any money. I can't. I mean, you can't. You're dead. And I'm like, what do you mean they're canceled? He's like, they're canceled. I'm like, no, they're supposed to be here next week. Yeah. The factories never made them. They canceled your orders, which, if you import, you know, they were already being imported. We were just using them. And so that's. I mean, we had no control. And he wouldn't really tell us. He wouldn't tell us when they were come, like, put the order in. So we just started reaching out, making contacts. And I believe when that happened, Magic was like, that next week. So Amy and I jumped on a plane, flew to Magic, and we were like, we're going to find us a manufacturer. Walk the show for two days. This is the craziest story. Walk the show for two days. We don't find anybody. We can work with no one. I am. I'm furious when I get on the plane. So Amy always gets the window. I always get the stinking metal.

Julia, Juliet.

Like, how did I get this deal? I really like the aisle. Get the middle. And this guy sits next to us on the plane. And we just start talking. Hi, I'm Mike Brown. And we're talking back and forth. And he. I go, so, what were you at Magic for? He goes, well, we import. We import from China. And I'm like, what do you import? He goes, shoes. No. So I go, oh, my God. So I start. I'm, like, so excited. And I start telling him. Well, he thinks, like, me and Amy are these dumb girls from Fort Worth that started our little shoe company. And I'm like, I cannot believe I'm sitting, like. And that's who we started working with. Like, at first, he literally said. He goes, I thought it was like, you had this idea. I didn't. You know, he didn't realize the magnitude, but he was, like, blowing me off. And, you know, finally I'm like, on my phone, look it what we make. So then we go to China.

That's unbelievable. Like, isn't it funny how God, just, like, these little guys, like, they just happen when you least expect it.

Yes. So we worked with them for that company for a long time. And, like, I tell everyone that imports everything. Stuff is always going to go wrong. It's going to come in wrong. It's going to be wrong. Like, be ready for it. You know, we get a whole shipment in. Great. The next shipment. Because our shoes, the length of the shoes had to be made perfectly almost because we cut out that leather and the length of the leather and on the foot, you know, how it all fit. And sometimes they wouldn't get those links right. And so. And they had to really match, Right. You know, or one foot, one shoe would be bigger than the other. We literally every pair of shoes that came out of the box that went in the production line was hand measured. And then if it didn't meet the requirements that I had specified, it went in the junk pile. Like, so we had a lot of waste, but we worked with them for a long time and. But every company in China will eventually you will have issues and they will jack you around. So get more than one.

So your product. For people who don't know, I mean, tell them a little bit more about like the shoe. Right. Because it was so popular at its time. I'm sure everyone listening probably had one or something similar. And it was not just western, but it was very crossover as well.

So when, when I started it, you know, we just glued cowhide, some studs and glued some crystals and then it grew from there where every. All the crystals were hand set. We did exotic leathers, we did pattern leathers. I would tell people, you know, when they'd come into the booth at Denver, whatever market we were at, that we were the Neiman Marcus of the Saros of the Swarovski covered flip flops. And I do really feel that I was one of the very first people in the game. I mean, it was insane how many people would knock us off. But we would hand do every concho, hand pick, hand do everything on those shoes. So the only part that was made in China was the base and the straps. And then it would go through the full production line of the leather being clicked out, being hand studded. Then the crystals were hand put on, the conchos were handmade, and those were hand put on. And then they would go through all. Everything was re measured, rechecked then into the box. And I literally checked myself every pair of shoes probably the first three and a half years we were in business. And a lot of them are right here in my kitchen table. I wanted to make sure. I was so mortified that it would be two rights or two wrong. You know, I just was so neurotic about it, you know, and. But luckily, you know, my girls that worked the line, they knew how, like I would just show up out there and open boxes like they knew I was crazy.

Well, and again, if you are familiar with the shoes, I mean, we're talking about like a $200 pair of flip flop.

Yeah. Our average shoe, our average customer owned 26 pairs of our shoes. And the. Yeah, no, it was crazy when, when I used to do my studies like, it was insane. And like, art. The. The lower end would be 300 up to 550 for a pair of shoes. So. And when. My funnest thing I used to do when we were getting knocked off by.

All the flip flop companies.

So I had a retail side to the website and a wholesale side to the website. So I would purposely put our worst sellers on the retail end so then I would know who was going to my website then copying my shoes.

How did you handle that process? I mean, knockoffs in that industry are. That's a big deal. What was your.

I can remember being at Magic, and we were walking by the front of the yellow box booth, and the reps literally came out when they saw us and stood in front of the door like this, like that. We were gonna come in and do something. Like it was. I'm like, I know you guys are copying me because you know who we are. We're just these two girls from Texas.

That make some flip flops.

I mean, but, you know, you're gonna be. If you're doing something good, you're gonna be copied. And that's why if you're. If you believe in what you're doing and you're passionate about what you're doing and you're not worrying about all the crap over here, and you have a clear path of where you're going and what you're about and you're taking care of your customers, I don't care. You know, somebody. If somebody would, you know, call and say they're selling it for this, then you're not. We're not. We're not compatible anymore. Like, I'm not in the business. My shoes are handmade with real Swarovski crystals. Like, you come here and watch me make these and then tell me if they should be cheaper. You know, that's. That's not the business I was in. I like when I would tell them I am the Neiman Marcus of the Swarovski flip flops. It's. If that's not you or your customer, we can just be. We can just say hi.

Yeah, I love that. Know who your customer is. Right? Yeah. Yes. People want to do business with people anyway, you know, so it's not about. It's not as price driven. I always say to our members. And I would say, chief isn't loyal.

No.

But building a brand that's loyal.

No. And that's what, you know, when I would have stores call me and say, your shoes aren't selling. Because I would tell them, if they don't sell. Call me. Like, I don't need you telling everybody that these shoes don't sell. So call me. And I've never had. After this phone, after I tell you this story, I've never had a person call me back and want to return them. But I would ask them. I'm like, okay, where do you have the shoes displayed in the shoe section? And I said, let me guess. Right next to the yellow box and blah, blah, blah, whatever, all Corky's, all. Whatever the names were back then, Montana, whatever. You have. You have a 300 to $500 pair of shoes next to a $24 pair of shoes. Are you going to hang a $24 necklace next to a $500 squash blossom? No. Take my shoes. Take them to the front. Make a display. My shoes will pay for the square footage that it takes up in the front. My shoes are special. Not everybody gets my shoes. Not everybody gets to buy those. They're not for everybody. But if you put them in the front, make them special, make the people that are buying them feel special, that these are the special shoes with a special outfit, you'll be calling me to reorder.

I love it. I love it. Oh, my gosh. Isn't that. That's a lesson. I hope everyone, like, really absorbed that, because that's a lesson, whether you're a retailer or a wholesaler.

Yes.

That you can't just throw them all together. You have to know what is special. Just like that. No, no.

I mean, if I want a cheap pair of flip flops, I'm not gonna randomly looking at a 300. You know, I don't. It.

It.

It's not. This isn't Ross. You just don't mix it all together.

Exactly. Merchandising. You know, when someone comes in the store, they're typically going to come in and go to the right. So your newest, highest price, freshest, like, most expensive pieces. That's where they go because you want them to pop and tell a story first. So let me ask you this. When I think about successful businesses, I feel like there's usually five components of really successful businesses. And I want to touch on each of these five with you. They are finance, your brand, your product, your team, and your vision. So I want to start with your brand, because I think it ties to how did you sell, you know, a 2 to 3 to $500 pair of flip flops? It's because you built a brand. And even since there is no more gypsy soul, like, the brand still lives. It Made that much of an impact. Two girls from Texas create this brand in a very male only world. There was no women doing what you guys were doing at the time, which I think is amazing. You were trailblazers. How did you do that? How did you create a brand that was so personal like that for people that really lit a fire?

I think, you know, there's time, I mean, timing the magic of me and Amy. I mean, Amy is so talented and she is a firestorm. And she. Every business that she had worked in before, you know, were. She was very well known. And just the two of us together, I mean, it was a perfect storm. And that's what, you know, people would call and be like, how, how do you have a business with your best friend? And I'm like, amy's not my best friend. She's my best business partner. Like, she had her own life, I had my own life. We talked 32 times a day when we had the business know, and I could call her right the second and get her on here, you know, but we weren't best friends. We were best business partners. We. It was a perfect storm, perfect magic. But failure was never an option for either of us. That, that was our mantra. I mean, we were so sick of men telling us we couldn't do something. I mean, I can remember Amy and I, when we got our first $150,000 order from Cavenders, I took that order to the bank to get some money, you know, a bump our line of credit. I mean, we need money when businesses are growing. I mean, and we grew, we would grow over 50% over the, you know, each year. It was insane. And the banker basically patted us on the shoulder and was like, well, I'm just worried you girls might stub your toe. I found me a new banker like that week and he gave me a six figure line of credit like that. So if somebody tells you no, go find somebody else that tells you yes. Yeah. But it's, you know, the whole. With the brand we just had, you know, I mean, literally she owned Gypsy Cowgirl was her trademark that she owned. And, and I just thought up one day I was like, what about Gypsy Soul with an E? And I called my trademark attorney in New York and he loved the E part of it, got it trademarked for, for us. And we just, it was who we, who we were. You know, she was the gypsy, I was the soulful one. And I mean, it just worked. And we, the shoes, when we, we. When we made the shoes, I guess we could say we didn't really realize what we were doing, but we did. But for when we would get letters from women, emails, letters, phone calls that they would tell us. I have not been proud of myself in years. Like, I'm overweight. I wear black. I don't dress up. And they tell. They would tell us when they would put on their. Our shoes, that. That when they would go to the store, people would notice them. So they would start wearing cuter outfits, doing their makeup like they were seen. And I. You know, I never really thought about it that way till we were getting letters. Like, our product truly makes people feel better. It really, truly has an emotion attached to it, which Amy and I are very emotional driven, passionate, crazy women. So I guess that should come out in our product.

Yeah. And it came out in your marketing, too. I feel like your marketing, it spoke to women in a way they hadn't been spoken to before. And the two of you did something that I think you did really early on, before others caught onto this. But you became centric to your brand. Like, people not only knew Gypsy Soul, but they knew the two of you, and no one done that before. Tell me about, like, you being a piece of your brand, where people felt like they were doing business with a person.

I don't. I don't know that. I just think that's how I do business. Like, it is so important to me to have relationships with my. My reps, the people around me, my stores. I mean, I want them to call me and tell me, this sucks. Like, and so I can fix it, you know, okay, it sucks. What do we got to do to fix it? I don't need you to just not tell me it sucks. I mean, I've been on the retail end. I've been on the wholesale. I've been a customer. I mean, I've been an employee in a retail store. You know, I've worked every angle of that, every which way you can. And I know what those experiences should be like. But the number one thing is it's just like, I don't sell. I wasn't selling Gypsy Soul. I was building relationships. I was. It was. It wasn't just this thing. It was a part of us and who we were. So it wasn't. It wasn't anything. We just like, oh, we're gonna invent this and sell it, you know?

Yeah. So the next part, you know, really of growth. Kind of talked about product already, too, but team. All of a sudden, you guys created this firestorm of a product that took off. You had to do all this manufacturing. What was it like to scale a team to be prepared for that?

Amy, I mean, the great thing with me and Amy, you know, I'm logistical. Did all the logistics of the office, how it functioned, the employees, finances, making sure every penny counted. Amy did a lot of the design, which we designed together, but she would be the. You know, she's the true designer. She had no. Flew to China, she would fly to Mexico. You know, everything I sucked at.

She was great.

Like, I am anybody that follows me on Instagram or any social media, I can't spell. I'm horrible. I don't even see my mistakes. Like, if it's numbers I'm on, but reading spelling, I suck. Amy had to proofread all my important emails. They had to go to her first. So, I mean, the team, our team. And like I said, it was just a perfect storm. But then when we brought other people on, you know, we wanted people to be a part of our team that believed in our brand and they wanted to work. And like, we. We got where we did three and four interviews and working interviews because. And I'm a huge fan of that because anybody can ace two interviews back to back and always like, our top picks by the fourth interview was our last. They blew it. No one ever passed that. So, you know, we got really vigilant on who we had around us and had the same vision, and they wanted to be there and they wanted to hustle. They had no hobbies. We just wanted them working with us.

How did you instill that vision in them? That's, you know, another leg of the business is you had to carry such a strong vision and know what you were capable of and where you were going. But then you had to inspire your team to come along with you.

I think just a good work. I mean, they had to want to be a part of Gypsy Soul. And we always. There were serious times and business had to be business. But, like, when it. When we had the most employees, like one day we had a softball or a. Some. It wasn't really a softball game, but we made shirts for the team. You know, we would do. If it was a. If I just felt like it was a heavy day, I would just order pizzas. Like, come on, let's just. You gotta keep morale up, you know, and everyone, pretty much everyone that worked for me were. We had one guy, Rob, that worked for us. Everybody else were women, and most of them were single moms. So, you know, they. You don't know what's going on in their Life out, you know, outside of there, you know, they were struggling or, you know, they were single mom. They had a lot going on. So, you know, business was business. But we always wanted to be a place. We were the place they could come, you know, and feel a part of something. They were a part of our family. And it's so amazing. Some of my employees are at Tuskegee's and they tell me every time they see me, brenda, if, if Lucky Chuck gets big, we're quitting and coming with you. And I'm like, I'm not having any employees stay at Tuscans. But it's so amazing, you know, to hear your old employees tell you, if you start a company tomorrow, I'm sending in my resume. I mean, it's awesome.

That says a lot. You mentioned that finances, that was your gig. And I know you talk to a lot of boutique owners and wholesale brands and just startup companies today, and sometimes that's an afterthought. Like, they have the product and they love the marketing and they love the people, but the finances can be really overwhelming. What do you feel like, what advice would you give, I guess, to those who are newer into business and to scaling a business that they really need to pay attention to in their finances now before it's too late?

Yeah, I mean, it's. We all, when we start a business, we're kind of pulling money from. I mean, unless you're like, okay, I'm going to take 20 grand or whatever the number is and I'm going to just throw it at this, okay, fine, that's whatever. But. And I tell them, like, in the beginning, we're all little squiggly just making it work. But at the end of the day, you have got to, to keep your eye on your pennies. Because when money's coming in and products coming in and you're selling and everything's just flowing and then one day it's not, and then you decide, oh, I better see where my money's going. Well, it's too late then. Or the economy sucks. You know, and that's, you know, excuse me, Gypsy. So, and I, you know, we went through, oh, 8, 0, 9, 10, when the economy, like, I literally thought, who is gonna buy three, four and 500 flip flops? And we did, you know, we lost a ton. We were in over a thousand doors. And in that time we lost half our stores. But I picked up Zappos.com at that time, which I had been trying to get that account for three years. Like sending flowers on Holidays, making nice emails for three years. So it all, you know, but that goes back to doing your business, your what your vision is, where you're going and keeping your eye on your pennies. Because when those little shops started dropping off, it could have been a huge train wreck if, you know, I wasn't paying, paying attention. And I always tell, we used to always say we never want our big box stores to be more. I think it was more than 40% of our business. Because if you lose them, what happens? You're in trouble.

Yeah, I want to ask you about that because I feel like that's a big question today. So you know, you can, if you're a retailer, let's say specifically you can go to fashion go or you can go to market, whatever, you can buy some brand that isn't really a brand name and you can bring it in and flip it and sell it. That's great. But then you can also go and you can buy a household name brand like Dipsey Soul was, that is going to attract people to your store, to your website because they're looking for that specific product and that's a huge draw. Right. Your markup might be different on those two things, but then kind of a pain point that I see from boutiques. They're like, well, if that's the case, if I'm going to bring in this brand, that's a draw, I don't want them to compete with me on Zappos or a big box store. But really there is a way to balance both. And I think even through this conversation it's important that we remember that brands are small businesses too. And you can't put all of your eggs in one basket, just like they can't put all of their eggs in one basket. So how do you manage the relationship of selling both to a big box and into a boutique?

So we, I would tell, if we had people say, they say something like that to me sometimes I would tell them, well, am I your only shoe brand or you know, something compet, that's a competitor to me. Am I, am I the only one you're bringing in? No. And number two, you, if you are a boutique or a small store, your customer, yeah, they can order off Zappos, we all can order off Zappos. But some we don't want to go to Zappos always. I mean we want to go to the store, try it on, have the experience and if you're, if the store is doing their part in managing their customers and doing what they're supposed to be doing. That's not even. That's not even a question. And that's just basically, I feel like when people go down that rabbit hole, then don't. You don't want. You don't want to carry them, you know, and. Or, you know, you would get. Because we had the retail and the wholesale, and on my retail website, the shoes were $10 more on my website than what the retailer sold them for. So they would be 310, and in the store, they were 299. So when a customer would go and search me on the website, when they get to. They already knew they were $310, and they get this. Get to the store and go, oh, my gosh, these are only $299. I'm like, I'm already. I'm already helping you, you know, or some things would be $50 more. Or all of our jewelry and t shirts were $10 more. Plus I charged obnoxious shipping rates because retail was literally 10% of my business. I said it paid the electric bill. That's what it did, you know, and we. If anybody would call and they would call in and say they wanted to place an order, we'd ask them, where are you at, Will? Have you checked with this store? We instantly say we have a store in this area. But, you know, I just. If somebody wants to go back and forth on a box store, I just am like, you're going down a rabbit hole. You don't want to care issues anymore.

Yeah, I. I honestly, I really like it because I feel like it's a while. I understand the relevance of the concern. It's a bit of a scarcity mindset, because if you're doing your job as the boutique owner, you're building the brand with your customers and they want to come to you, and you can style outfits. That's your gift. And serve your customers in a way that a big boxer never could. And cheap is not loyal. And that's what a big box experience really is. No.

Or I'll just tell them, well, they can order their shoes on Zappos and then they can bring them in and you can style an outfit for them instead of that much.

So you have been, again, just an entrepreneur, serial entrepreneur. You've started these businesses, you've sold these businesses, and then it came time to sell Gypsy Soul. Tell me a little bit about that experience. And just like, if you could go back and talk to yourself before selling any one of these. These businesses, what do you wish you would have known when you Were making that decision.

Don't ever tie yourself. You. You are not your brand. So are your identity. You know, my first business, it was when I sold it. There were people that I thought were my friends or whatever. And then when it's a weird dynamic. So I had already went through that with the first business, second business, I didn't care. I was like, buy it income. I'm on to new things. And I'm in Texas. Amy and I looked for investors for a lot of years to grow Gypsy soul. And I tell people that, I mean, you need to really sit down and understand what you want to build and how much money you have to make or need to make, because you will create a beast. And you better be ready to feed that beast, because once the engine gets going, it's really hard to step off that wheel of feeding the beast unless you're just gonna quit. And so we, and we, our vision, we wanted to be huge. We wanted it to grow. We wanted a beast. But then the beast got ginormous. So we looked for investors for a long time, and we did get an investor. Sold 60% of the company to that investor. Was really a great time. We grew. We were growing crazy. Had expanded into purses and boots and jeans. And we were supposed to be this new, amazing brand. And the investor decided 18 months into it that he was pulling the plug on all of us. We were a tax write off. Well, for his, his, his bigger company. So to tell myself before, it's a hard question because I'm a risk taker and I wanted the brand to grow, and I'm always pretty much willing to take the risk. I didn't have a bad gut feeling at the time. Six months into the deal, I had a gut feeling. My gut feeling ended up being right. So, you know, I would probably have to say, as many years as it took Amy and I to find an investor, we probably should have not made the beast so big and just not grow as fast. But it's hard when the orders are coming in. You know, you don't turn them down. You just keep hustling. And I mean, literally, we went from doing 150,000 a year to like 800,000 and then that next year well over a million. I mean, it was just those first years. I mean, and it just kept going. And to keep up with that cash flow and wanting to change the product and get more jewelry and do our own T shirt bodies and we wanted to expand into jeans. I mean, it just, it's hard when the orders are coming In. So you just, you know, a banker will tell you you need to control your growth. Yeah, you do, but he's the banker. He's not sitting in your chair. You know, that's why he doesn't do what you do. It's easy to say that from your little pencil desk, so. But I don't, I don't regret doing what I did. I wouldn't do. There's things, hindsight, I would have done a little bit different in the end. I'm a true believer. God makes everything happen for a reason. And I will always take the high road. And, you know, you can sit here, you know, hindsight, you can sit here and think, shoulda, coulda, woulda. But we did it. And Gypsy Soul was amazing. And so many people still love it. I mean, literally last week, um, when I was at World's Greatest Horseman, I had a lady, she's like, I will. I have the person to front the whole money to start Gypsy Soul again, if you will just do it. I mean, I don't understand why you just can't do it. And I'm like, it's, it's so much bigger than that. Like, I'm just thinking, oh, my God, a production line again.

You know, I'm just.

Yeah, I mean, they don't, they don't know. But it's, it is so flattering that so many people. I mean, I still get emails on my web, you know, from my website that where do you know, where I could still buy some or, you know. Yeah, but I guess the biggest thing I would say, you know, investors aren't always going to be the answer, you know, and more money isn't always going to be the answer. And bigger and better, you know, isn't always answer. But I was, you know, in the heyday of it.

Well, it created something that will forever live on, certainly. And it paved the way for so many people that you probably don't even know. You know, me being one of them. I just am so inspired by what you've done and you continue to do because you're still giving back in the lessons that you learned during that time. To anyone who will listen today, yes, I want to talk about some of those lessons, but I also just want to talk about, you know, in the aftermath of that, you recreated yourself. What is the process like of recreating yourself and creating something new?

Well, it's taken a few years. I was really tired, I have to say. Like, I didn't even realize how exhausted I was, you know, just flying to China and doing. Just being. Running a company, you know, multimillion dollar company like that. And then I had to have, you know, people helping me with my kids, people helping me at home, you know, nanny. I mean, just there was just so much. And then to go from, you know, getting a thousand emails a week to 30. I don't. I don't even remember. I mean, you know, it just. It was. But I was tired, you know, for a long time and just took a breath. Been consulting. And then I did. If you can see my shirt, this is lucky Chuck. So I thought up this brand in about a year after Gypsy Soul ended and I trademarked it, did a bunch of stuff, got the web, you know, all the normal business stuff that we do and just sat on it. And then I just. I was gonna make socks. I wanted to make these amazing socks, which we saw still may do that. I keep trying to get Twisted X to partner with me on this. And Persad thinks I'm crazy. The owner Twisted X.

But anyways.

But I just couldn't get. But I couldn't get exactly what I wanted. The minimums were crazy, you know, because we're going overseas and I just thought Lorinda just shut it down. So this year I found a company to work with that they warehouse all my shirts, they handle all my customer service, they ship it for me. And so I thought, I think we could do this. Like. And I got with my daughters and my oldest daughter's name is Charlie, so.