GA 645 | Why Leadership Is Failing with Keith Wyche

I think that one thing that leaders ought to do also is be more vulnerable and talk about their failures as much as their successes. You know, my successes may have inspired me, but my failures taught me.

Today, I'm excited to welcome Keith Wyche to the show. Now, as you'll hear, Keith has a ton of leadership experience, and today on the show, we dive into this whole idea. So Keith opens up with his opinion, and I tend to agree with the opinion, I mean, but he thinks that over the past decade or so, leadership is failing across many sectors, not just business, but our elected officials, religious leaders, and so forth. And so what we do is we sort of dig into like, why does he think that? And then most importantly, what can we do as a society and leaders ourselves to turn this thing around? So lots of good wisdom in this one. I think you're going to benefit from it. I know I did. So show notes can be found over at gemba.io. gembapodcast.com. This is episode 645. Again, gembapodcast.com, and look for episode 645. Okay, enough from me. Let's get to the show. Keith, welcome to the show.

How are you? Doing great, Ron. So glad to be a part of it.

Yeah, yeah. Where are you calling in from?

Calling in from sunny Tampa, Florida.

Nice, nice. Beautiful part of the country. Always nice and sunny, right?

Always sunny, but you're always going to get a dose of rain, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. My grandparents used to have a sort of a vacation home and they're from India, were in Indiana and used to always go to Florida and we'd visit them. And yeah, it was always early afternoon or something like that.

Early afternoon, about a half hour shower.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's great. That's great. All right. Well, hey Keith, as you know, we like to begin all of our episodes with our guests sharing a quote. So what do you got?

You know, my quote is, you know, about leadership, and it's that a true leader lives to create future leaders. I think that's the number one job of leadership. And so it's one of the things that's a handle on my email. And so that's kind of my quote of the day.

I love it.

I love it.

All right. Well, hey, Keith, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your background and how you got into the line of work you're in now.

Yeah, I'm, gosh, retired now after about 40-plus years in working for companies like AT&T, IBM, and most recently Walmart when I retired. You know, got a bachelor's degree and a master's degree and really sought to become a CEO in corporate America. Didn't quite reach that mountaintop, but I was president of several divisions of several companies. And now I serve on the board of directors of Brinks. And real quickly, about 10 years ago, I decided that, you know, it was a chance for me to transform from what I call success to significance. Success was about me and what I accomplished. Significance was about pouring into others. And so that got me on the path of writing books, Rod, and these types of speaking engagements, what have you.

Well, and we always have our cameras on here when we do these interviews, but we don't actually use a video. But looking at you, man, you don't look old enough to be retired, man. You look great.

Well, I got my first Social Security check last month, so that gives you a little hint.

Okay.

Well, you're doing well, man. You look wonderful.

Thank you.

All right. Well, hey, so I'm really excited for today's show. It's a little bit different than our normal topic, but let's just dive in. And out of the gate, as we were sort of preparing for this podcast, you were stating that over the last decade or so, it's your opinion that leadership is failing across many sectors, not just business, but our Our elected officials, religious leaders, and so forth. So I'm curious if we could just maybe dig into that as a jumping-off point. Like, what brought you to this conclusion?

Yeah, that's a great question. And it really started with the question I got a couple of years ago from my 15-year-old grandson. We were watching the evening news, and it was just one of those days where everything was about scandal and things breaking apart. And he said, Pops, you're a leader, aren't you? I said, yeah. He said, you don't lead that way, do you? And I said, no, I don't. And it dawned on me that, you know, we are teaching the next generation how to behave and how to act. And so I didn't want to just say, hey, is this my opinion? And so I did some research. And so, you know, there's an Edelman Trust Behavior Report that says, you know, 7 in 10 respondents believe that government leaders, business leaders, and journalists deliberately mislead them by saying things they know are false or gross exaggerations. When it came to Pew Research, in 1958, 73% of Americans trusted the government to do the right thing almost always. By 2007, that number was down to 30%. Today it sits at 17%. And then last but not least, 82% of employers believe that their employee leadership— that their employees trust leadership, but only 60% of employees agree. And that's a 22-point spread. So by definition, there is a collapse in leadership. If you look at the faith-based unit, again, Lifeway Research said that the trust in clergy has fallen from 67% in 1985 to about 32% today. So all the indicators, all the research says that there's a decline in the perception, at least, of leadership and the value they bring.

Fantastic. Well, great research and not great news, but let's dig in and see what we can do about it because many people listening right now to this podcast are leaders. And so we have a great responsibility. So what do you think is, I mean, really at the root cause, like what's causing this? Because you're right. I mean, all you got to do is turn on the news and there's one crisis after another, whether it's business or like you said, in religious organizations or whatever. So like, what do you think's at the heart of it?

You know, there are a couple of things that come to mind, Ron. I mean, first is, I think the thirst for power has overcome the calling to serve. We've transitioned from being a nation of what we call servant leaders to what I'd say could be self-serving leaders. And so that's the first thing. I think from a corporate perspective, we tend to look the other way as long as the results are there, as long as that CEO is delivering the quarter, as long as that stock price stays where it needs to be. We can tend to overlook how we get these results in lieu of just getting the results. And I think that, you know, feedback and warning signals have been, again, ignored as long as we're getting the results that we want. And the last thing I'll say, and this is from a corporate perspective, the focus is on short-term. Every quarter you have to go before the analysts, you have to do your quarterly report. And so sometimes we can be so focused on that short-term that we ignore the long-term effects of all of this.

Well, you've got a lot of experience, Keith. Obviously, you've been in the game for a long time and you've seen a lot, and I'm sure you've learned a lot, and I'm sure you've made your own mistakes along the way. But I'm wondering if maybe, if you're open to it, and obviously change the names and protect the innocent and all that, but do you have any sort of examples or war stories that you can share that we can learn from?

Yeah. I mean, I'll use myself as an example. I think that one thing that leaders ought to do also is be more vulnerable and talk about their failures as much as their successes. My successes may have inspired me, but my failures taught me. And there was a time early in my leadership where I was this Theory X manager, command and control, because that's what I saw before me. And so I would do certain things, Ron, that are embarrassing to talk about now. But if I had a 9 o'clock meeting, if you were not at your desk in the boardroom for that meeting, I would lock the door. And you would have to either listen outside the door or you would have to ask for notes. There was a time in my career— again, I was at IBM and I was sales management. Where I really didn't care about how I got the results. And so I would abuse the finance team. I would work my team into the ground. And we won awards every year. And we hit our sales targets and made lots of money. But I was wearing people down. And before I left IBM, I wasn't getting promoted. And an older gentleman said, Keith, it's not because of your results. It's how you performed. You were a bull in a china shop. And as a result, you couldn't create followership, which is the number one thing a leader needs to do.

What— where do you think the intensity, for lack of a better word, came from? Like in those early years of your leadership?

For me, it came from kind of modeling the behavior of the leaders before me. You know, I would see people and you got to realize this was the late '70s, early '80s. And, you know, it was the Wall Street era. And, you know, if you think about the movie Wall Street, you know, Gordon Gekko and all that. And so there was just this, hey, let's win at any cost. And so you see this behavior, you see it be rewarded in other people, and you think that's the right way to lead. And so unfortunately, we learn from leaders what to do and often what not to do. And so those were some lessons I learned that I should not have learned, but later on got a chance to fix, fortunately, early in my leadership career.

I mean, again, share as much or as little as you want, but can you maybe give an example of where you Did it wrong and you really sort of regret it and maybe you fixed it later, but I don't know. Oh, yes.

So many things. Yeah, I'll give you again another example because I did so many things I wish I had a do-over on. But when it came time to meet with my team individually on one-on-ones, I was so focused on what I needed to do that I wasn't paying attention. So I was checking my emails, I was checking my phone for messages from senior leaders, And what I was doing was sending off a message to my team that they weren't important and that I didn't value them or their opinion. And that's just another example of what I would do. There were times I'd work them so hard, Ron. We'd be on a big project, and maybe we started at 8 in the morning, and now it's lunchtime. And instead of breaking for lunch, I would say something as ignorant as, well, lunch is for the week. Let's go through this. And so those were the things that, fortunately, I had people who had the courage enough to confront me and say, hey, young man, that's not how you lead. That's not how you create followership. You want to be a leader that people follow because they want to. In my book, there's a chapter that says people don't follow instructions, they follow leaders. And that's what I found to be very important.

You mentioned earlier the idea of vulnerability. I'm wondering if we could touch base on that or go a little bit deeper because for many people, being vulnerable is very, very, very difficult. Talk a little bit about that. How did vulnerability play a role in your leadership style? And was it— I'm guessing it wasn't easy for you early on.

Most leaders, I would argue all leaders, have a certain amount of ego, and there was no difference in me. And there was a time when I was at Walmart, I was running stores in New York, had about 100 stores, about 30,000 employees. And a few years back, you may remember this, there was a product called the Hmm, yeah. It was this little bitty thing, and I thought that was going to be the next best thing since sliced bread. And so I mandated my stores to order 1,000 of these things each. About 3 months later, they all had 999 left. And so I had to kind of admit to the team, hey, I goofed on this one. I thought this thing was going to be a hit. It wasn't. And as a result of that, I'll buy all those back from you so it won't hit your budget. But what that did was it really elevated the trust they had in me because I was willing to admit, hey, I blew it. I asked you to do something that really didn't make sense. A, I'm going to admit that, and B, I'm not going to penalize you for my decision. I'll eat that on my P&L and not yours. And I found out later they really appreciated that.

So when you think about leaders who might be off track, Doing the things that you were doing earlier in your career, and we've all done it, right?

Sure.

What are the— I don't know, what are some of the primary consequences of that action? What kind of wake are we leaving?

Yeah. The first thing is you create total disengagement because people just don't have the patience or the heart to follow you. You see in churches empty pews and smaller roles. And in the In the workforce, again, not only disengagement, but retention. People leave. They vote with their feet. And people in this economy, in this day and age, would rather go somewhere where they can be valued and appreciated as opposed to just tolerated. And then just in the broader political sense, you see division and those types of things taking place. And so those are the consequences of what happens when you aren't that type of leader.

Do you I think, and this is not a politics show or anything like that, and I honestly try to stay away from politics as much as I can. Honestly, it stresses me out. Doesn't matter, left, right, everything stresses me out. But do you see, or do you have any hope for the future? Speaking of America, just in general, with the way that things go with politics, because it's just ugly.

Yeah, I have tremendous faith in this country. We have overcome many, many situations over the last 250 years. And there's no doubt that, you know, when the people rise up and when their voice is heard, change happens. We live in a very cyclical world and this too shall pass. And so I'm very hopeful when I look at the Gen Z and the Gen Y and those groups that are behind baby boomers like myself, that they will get us to where we need to be. So I have tremendous hope. I'm with you. I hope that we will get there. And again, this is agnostic of political party, what have you. We are the United States of America. And I think that we will band together at some point and do the right thing.

What is your take on today's youth? I've got some young kids and my oldest daughter just got married, had a baby and all that. So I'm sort of entering into that phase of my life now, but I still have got— I got a 10-year-old still at the house. What do you make of the youth today and sort of the future that they have in front of them as far as— and like, I call it like the TikTok generation. Like, one of my, my son Ryan, he like, that's his job and he's doing fantastic with it. Like, he literally sits and makes music. He does music primarily, but it's his TikTok channel and all the rest of it that's blown up and paying his bills, quite honestly. Like, what do you think of all this? Because like, to me, I'm kind of like, oh my word, what is going on here? You know, because I'm from the school of like, Go to school, get a job, work hard, and it's worked out for me. But the world today is so very different. What do you think about that?

I'm excited. When I look at the youth of today, they grew up data natives, right? When I went to college, there were no emails, there was no internet. If you studied, you had to go to the library. You couldn't go and Google this or Claude that. And so these folks are very innovative, very creative, very adaptive. Again, they adapt. You know, us old guys, and I'm not going to put you in that crowd, I'll take the crown myself on that, we're resistant to change. Change is their second nature. And so I think, you know, if you look at their innovation, if you look at their creativity and their adaptability, I think we're in good shape when it comes to that generation. I tease my I have a granddaughter. When she was 2, she could program the remote on the TV and find her Disney channels. I still struggle with that. So, you know, it's innate in them. You know, and I think the other thing about that group is that I think work-life balance is something that's much more important to them. And so they don't live to work. You know, they work and, you know, living is not something that they put on the shelf. They make sure they live and they get out there and have a good time.

Yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. So what do you think? We've talked a lot about sort of the problems, if you will, out there and some of the things like, what are some primary actions even just those of us listening right now can be doing to sort of, I don't know, reverse the trend of any sort of negative direction that we might be going?

Yeah, I think it starts with the leader. And the first thing the leader needs to do is understand they need to rebuild trust one promise at a time. You know, everything about you gives off a signal, and people want to have leaders they believe in. So that's the first thing. The second thing is walk the talk. It's important that, you know, you display the behavior that you model, the behavior that you want in others. And then the other thing is treating listening as a discipline. Too often as leaders, we think we know everything, we know all the answers. And I believe in listening. When I would tour my stores at Walmart or other places, I would ask 2 questions. What 3 things am I asking you to do that make no sense and add no value? And then if you had my job, what 3 things would you do differently, or what new product would you add? And just those listening skills alone, you know, helped me, you know, in every store increase their sales volume, employee engagement, what have you. So that's for that audience. I think for the faith-based crowd, you know, we have to understand that charisma isn't everything. Too often, you know, churches and congregations pick that, you know, leader based on their charisma and their ability of eloquently speaking, but you have to hold them accountable. Again, you have to hold them true to what it is they're supposed to do. And then just for the CEOs and leaders who are doing the hiring, you've got to make sure that character is still part of the hiring criteria. That's the first thing. And secondly, address toxic behavior quickly, the minute you see it, before it takes root. And if we do those things, I think we will slowly evolve back into what it took us so quickly to get into, which is what I call, again, self-serving behaviorhood, behaving instead of servant leading.

You gave some good points there on listening, but I want to dig deeper on that because I feel like listening is something that, heck, I'm not very good at, just being vulnerable and honest with you. I try, but... I might be hearing someone talk, and while they're talking, I'm taking notes on what I want to say. What do we got to do to be better listeners?

That is great because sometimes, and I'm guilty of it as well, we listen to defend instead of listening to understand. And to me, listening to understand says, I'm going to clear my mind of what I'm thinking right now, give this person or this conversation my undivided attention and try to see emphatically or empathetically what that other person is feeling or saying to me, as opposed to listening and getting my point-counterpoint ready to go back and forth. And I think too much of us do that type of listening instead of really listening to understand. We listen to defend our points.

There's this— when you were just saying that, I was thinking about This gentleman that I used to report to many years ago, and he was a fantastic listener. In fact, he had this— I don't know if he did it on purpose or if it was part of a shtick or what, but he had this tendency that when I was talking to him, he would hear what I said, and then he would just look at me and pause. And it was probably like a second or 2 before he would say anything back. But in that pause, it would almost give me anxiety because I was kind of like, say something. But he would pause almost to— I think he was probably trying to collect his thoughts and really figure out what he was going to say. But then he would just calmly come back.

Mm-hmm.

with some whatever it was, right? But I'll never forget the way that it was just his presence more than the words that he says. I don't even really remember the things that he said, but I remember the way that he said it. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. And the poet Maya Angelou said, people will never forget how you make them feel. They may forget what you say, but they won't forget how you make them feel. And the best listeners— and I have a story like that too— and this listener would not only— leader would not only pause, he would then repeat back to me what he thought I heard to make sure that, hey, I got what you said, Keith. And so, you know, the pause was that pregnant pause to say, let me reflect. And then he'd come right back and say, okay, if I heard you correctly, Keith, you said X, Y, and Z. And that alone gave me a comfort, a feeling of being heard, and more importantly, being understood.

Man, even with like our children and things like that, like doing that, because it's real easy to, you know, I heard enough. Now you're going to hear what I got to say. But so often, if we would, like you said, if we would just listen, listen to— what'd you say? Listen to—

Listen to understand, not to defend.

Instead of to respond. Listen to understand. That's fantastic. Oh my gosh. Boy, I told you before we got recording, we may go in different directions here, and we sure did. Man, this has been a lot of fun. Do you have any sort of, I don't know, final words of wisdom or parting thoughts that you want to leave with the listeners?

Yeah. Again, one of the reasons I wrote this book, Uncommon Leadership: A Blueprint to Restore Integrity, Trust, and People-Centered Leadership, is because I do believe in people. I do believe in leadership. And I do think that this too shall pass. And so I'm encouraged that we have younger generations who are looking at the world totally different. They're not workaholics like me and my generation. They care about society. They care about the community. And I really believe that in due time, these young folks, these young men and women are going to step up and show us how leadership really happens and how it should take place. And they will be these uncommon leaders that we'll all look up to.

Fantastic. And we're going to put a link to the book in the show notes. So everybody scroll down on whatever you're listening on and be sure to check out the book from Keith. Are there other ways to get in touch with you?

Sure, you can reach me at KeithWeich.com. You can find me on Instagram, The Real Keith Weich, and I love to be connected with on LinkedIn.

Okay, how about— how's your TikTok game, Keith?

I'm a boomer. I'm still working on my TikTok game yet.

So, uh, okay, so we'll put a pause on that for now. I got my son for that. Yeah, I, I get on it. I follow him. That's about it, you know.

Exactly, exactly. I'm I'm on Facebook and my grandkids say Facebook is for old people. So I guess that's the right channel. I know, right? Yeah, for real.

Yeah, we're the Facebook generation, that's for sure. Yeah, good stuff. All right. Well, hey Keith, this has been a lot of fun, man. I appreciate you.

Hey Rob, appreciate you. Have a great and productive week.

All right, take care.

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