12 Essential Steps to Productise Your Agency for Profitable Growth

I'm Rob Da Costa and this is the Agency Accelerator Podcast. As someone who has stood in your shoes, having started, grown and sold my own agency, I know just how it feels in the ups and downs of agency life. So this podcast aims to ease your journey just a little by sharing mine and my guests experiences and advice as you navigate your way to growing a profitable, sustainable and enjoyable business. Hey everybody and welcome to this week's Agency Accelerator, the podcast that helps agency accelerate owners, unlock their full potential and drive sustainable growth. I'm your host, Rob DaCosta and today we are diving into a critical topic that often holds agencies back from scaling, and that is the transition from bespoke services to a more productized offering. Now, joining us for this exciting discussion is Melissa Morris, the founder and owner of Agency Authority, an operations consultancy dedicated to transforming the way agencies work. She has over a decade of agency experience and is champion for change in the agency world, which is music to my ears. Committed to breaking the all too common cycle of long hours and inadequate compensation. With her help, she empowers agency owners and their teams to do work that they love without sacrificing client satisfaction, financial success, or indeed their own well being. So in today's episode, we'll explore the challenges and opportunities that come with moving away from fully customized bespoke services towards more scalable productized solutions. Solutions. And Melissa will share her expertise on how agencies can make this transition successfully. Some of the things they should look out for that ultimately allows them to serve more clients, all while maintaining quality and most importantly, profitability. So whether you're an agency owner looking to scale or simply curious about optimizing your service offerings, you're in for a treat today. So let's dive in. Melissa, welcome to the Agency Accelerator.

Hi. Thanks so much for having me on.

How was that introduction?

It was great.

Okay, good stuff. Well, let's just dive right in. I just wanted to kind of give a bit of context to this whole conversation. So can you start off by defining what we mean by bespoke services in an agency context and also why they can be a double edged sword for agency growth?

Absolutely. So when we're talking about bespoke services, we're meaning we're still really tailoring our packages to our clients so this can look a few different ways. Sometimes I even see agency owners trying to guess at what they think the business needs, how much they think they can afford, and they find themselves cobbling together these packages. Some of this even just comes from perhaps a bit of scarcity. Mindset of they asked me to include this, so I'm going to go ahead and include that. 2 and I think a lot of that stems from one, the nature of what it's like to build and grow an agency. When we first start out, we often are experimenting with our packages. We are trying to explore what do our ideal clients want, who is our ideal client, how can we best serve them and really move the needle for them. So I think early on that's very normal and a very important part of the process. You have to experiment and learn. But there does start to become a moment where that starts, starts to hurt you. And it's really time to start leaning into what you know about your work, what you know about your clients, and creating a more standardized service offering and really moving away from creating a new package every time or making a lot of concessions on the quote unquote packages that perhaps we do have when we're on sales calls.

Yeah, and it's really interesting, I think you're absolutely right, that in the early days we are kind of experimenting, experimenting about what works. But it's also an interesting point that you made that people make assumptions about what their clients need. And that's a very dangerous thing to do, isn't it? I always talk about are you selling vitamin pills or painkillers where vitamin pill is something that, you know, you think would be really helpful to your client, but what the client really needs today because they've got a headache is a painkiller. And so it's really important in those early days where you're trying to work out your service offering that you spend lots of time talking to your audience and looking for those common themes and the pain points that they have and how that overlaps with your skill set and what you can offer.

Oh, I love that analogy. And I. Yeah, I think that's spot on.

Yeah, absolutely. So what are some of the kind of warning signs that suggest an agency should start thinking about moving away from purely bespoke services? Like what stage in an agency's kind of evolution should they start thinking about this?

Yeah, just, you know, kind of very practically. What do these agencies look like? They're usually getting to multi six figures at this point, which means they figure it out. They are really starting to see who their ideal client is, how best they serve and support that client. They have likely started to bring on contractors. Maybe they've even, you know, gone for an employee and they've got somebody on board and they have other individuals now supporting them in client delivery. So on Paper, demographically, this is a lot of times what they look like. But what are they actually experiencing day to day? So there are a few red flags. One is you are the bottleneck as the agency owner. And what I mean by that is you find you're answering lots of questions from the people who are there to help you. You are often overseeing things. They are coming to you seemingly with questions that you feel like maybe they should know the answer to or maybe they should be feeling more empowered to handle accountability feels a little wishy washy, a little vague. And the reason you're seeing this is because there is not a clear container for them to work in, because packages are still very custom, or there's lots of, oh, I gave them this extra piece, or I went ahead and made this little tweak for them. Your team members and people you've brought on to support you are feeling a little confused. And so in their own efforts not to under deliver, not to over deliver, they're coming to you with lots of questions and really wanting your oversight every step of the way. So that's, that's one way I see it happening. A second way is you're really now starting to struggle with profitability, with revenue. Again, when it's just yourself, or maybe you've got a VA or a very, very part time contractor, it's really easy to do the math and see, if I charge this, I get this much and I pay them this much. But now we've got people who are introduced who are doing a lot of the client work. They may be on client meetings, having conversations that we're not present on. And that can feel very confusing and very muddy. And then again now, because we haven't been really clear on the service offering, our team members don't feel as empowered as they want. They're coming to us, as I mentioned, with these questions. Now we're really increasing administrative time. Agency owners and micromanage feels like such a negative word. And I know they don't want to, but they often find themselves in a micromanaging or task managing situation. Again, we're increasing administrative time. And then they find, gosh, I feel like we're running out of budget, we're running out of hours in this project. That's another red flag that we really need to start tightening up packages because tight packages create efficiencies, they increase productivity. And the third thing which you can see this all starts to piggyback off of each other is is tasks are slipping through the cracks and sometimes bigger tasks. So we Field a email from the client and they say, hey, where's that lead magnet that you said you were going to create for me? And you go, oh my gosh, I totally forgot that I told this client we were going to make a lead magnet for them. And you're on the phone with a designer and you're trying to whip up some copy and now everybody's scrambling. And again, now we don't have that in inefficiency. Right. We're spending more time and so all of these pieces really start to work together. But you can see I'm the bottleneck. I'm answering lots of questions. I'm really struggling with budget, timeline. And we're forgetting to do things that we told our clients we would do.

Yeah, such good, lots of good points that you made by there. I was running a workshop this morning that was kind of pertinent to this. And the whole concept of the workshop is, are you the CEO of your agency or are you the underpaid employee? Because too many agency owners. Are you being very polite? I won't be so polite. Too many agency owners are control freaks. That's why they started their agency. Right. They wanted control. They didn't have it in when they were working for another company. So they start their own business. And yet the need for control means they can't let go. And that perpetuates everything that you just said. So let's give another definition now. So I think people will nod their heads to everything you just said, but they might be a bit confused by the idea of productizing their service because they might think, no, no, hang on a second. We're a service based business. We don't sell products. So can you just give us a bit of a definition and maybe sort of some examples of what a productized agency service might look like?

Yes. And product ties can feel maybe like a fancy word or a word that's maybe harder to wrap our heads around. Especially when we're a service based industry. We're hearing that word product. But what we're really talking about is standardization. We have clear packages with clear deliverables and we are not deviating from them. So package A includes these very specific deliverables and it is this price. Package B has its own very specific deliverables and it has a price. This is what we're really looking towards and we can start to incorporate things like frameworks. I know a lot of people are probably heard about frameworks. They may have some or exploring their own frameworks. This is a great way to start to look towards that. These two things often go together. I won't go too much down that path. But the point is we have very clear deliverables. And some things I want you to think about too, when we're talking about clear deliverables, is are they actually clear? Think of almost smart goals. Is it measurable? Can I track it? Do I really know what this means? So I caution people when we're talking about a package, don't say strategy is included. You have now opened the door for your client to email you or call you or you know, pop in. Anytime they have an idea, they say, oh, run it by Rob, run it by Melissa. They offer strategy. So we would want to reframe that and say we have a strategic call and maybe that happens once a month or once a quarter, whatever starts to make sense. But what we've done is we're still offering them strategy and they still get that opportunity to ask us questions. But we're putting some pretty good boundaries around when they're going to ask us those questions, when we're going to answer them and what that looks like. And so then if they are emailing me, say, oh, you're going to help me with strategy. This is great. I'm going to add it to the agenda for our next strategy call that we have coming up. So again, productized service offering, really just think about standardizing your packages and that can look like to having some add ons. So this is some, some way you can start to think about. Well, sometimes they meet, right? The lead magnet example. Well, sometime they need a lead magnet, but sometimes they don't. Okay, well that's an add on. But again, that add on should be very standardized. Your lead magnet includes X, Y and Z at this price point.

Okay, let me play devil's advocate for a moment. I'm just trying to think of some of the questions that people might be thinking. They might say, hey, but Melissa, I'm the invaluable outsourced marketing department for my clients. They rely on me to do everything. So I'm, you know, it would be very scary for me to start saying no and to narrow my focus. And they might say, you know what makes me different to other agencies? Our willingness to say yes and help our clients out. So how does that. I mean there's loads of red flags in that. I know, but stuff I hear. But how does that play against kind of like putting a product, putting a service more in a productized sort of box.

Yeah. And that is a common concern of Agency owners. But I would caution you to consider by doing that, what are you also doing? You're burning yourself out, you're leading to overwhelm, you're making yourself. We can't clone ourselves, right? Lots of technology. We've got AI, but we're not quite there yet where you can introduce a brand new you. And so at that point, it's time to look at your business model. Are you a consultant and you're really going to be the person doing the client delivery and you maybe just have a couple of support systems and you're going to go all in with just a couple of clients. I think that's how that business model could look and then it needs to be priced accordingly. But if you want to pull yourself out of client delivery and you really want to be that CEO of the agency, you need to have things in place that allow others to implement your work. And I think this too can be where some of that framework comes into play. Right. So I, I think an example here is. So we work with agency owners and maybe this agency owner works in Asana and this agency owner works in ClickUp. Well, there are two different project management tools, but I'm supporting them with their project management tool. And I have a very specific approach that we're going to take. There are principles and foundations that we're going to put in place. Whether you're using Asana or ClickUp or Monday.com or whatever that looks like. So that also starts to become that product tie service is your intellectual property. What do I know about how to organize these things, how to structure these things? So I think someone who maybe is working in like HubSpot, they could do something similar where, okay, I'm going to create three pipelines for them and each pipeline is going to have five stages. Well, there's a pretty clear package. You're going to get three sales funnels or pipelines. Each will have five. And if you want more than that, then maybe that's, that's an add on. Now, what I'm tracking in that, what those steps look like, we have lots of flexibility within there, but I've put a, put a container around that work. So I hope that gets people's brains thinking about how they could take something that feels very custom and still create some structure around what that offer looks like.

Yeah, I think we'll dig into that a little bit more. But I think I just want to really highlight the point you made that we have to decide if we're a consultant or if we're running an agency. And one of the huge advantages and reasons why you should look at doing this is because it does. By documenting these standardized procedures, these frameworks, you create scalability in your agency because suddenly other people can deliver things and they can do it to a good standard because they're following a framework. Whereas if it's all kind of intuitive in your head and maybe you've got one other star player in your agency that can do what you do as well, well, that definitely isn't scalable. And you know, you'll end working long hours and being pretty poor and you'll end up not being the CEO of your agency, but being the underpaid employee. And none of us want that, even if we reluctantly have to admit. So let's be sort of practical for a moment. So let's say I am a PR agency. I've got a clear niche. I work in, in financial tech and but I've been doing all sorts of things for my clients. But I'm sitting here today and I'm going, Melissa, I hear what you the first thing I should start doing to start moving towards a productized service. And let me ask you two big questions here. And how do I make sure I don't alienate my existing clients in the process?

That is always the question I get asked and I set some expectation management to start. Anytime I work with an agency, I never recommend we start firing people or start forcing their clients into new packages that maybe they're not used to or are far more exciting expensive than their current service offering is. We certainly don't want to bite the hand that feeds us. And these, you know, clients have potentially been anchor clients for us or worked with us for a long time. So with that being said, a great place to start is to write down the deliverables for all of the clients that you do. And then I want you also though, to think about it. It's unfortunate, but we all do have a couple of clients that we know this is not an ideal client. This. We know they don't have the budget to work with us. We really know they're not a good fit. We're not going to worry about them because we're not going to start creating a package or a product I service offer for people we don't want to serve or we know we can't best serve. So we want to look at the people that we are getting good results for, the people we really enjoy working with. And let's see what we're giving them. And I will say a Lot of times, even just by talking through and writing down and almost seeing it side by side, you start to see some trends. And so you can start to slowly migrate and work towards a consistent package. So, for example, you may say, oh, for this client we post four times a week on two platforms, and for this other client, we're posting six times a week on two platforms. Okay, well, that's almost the same thing, right? And you can have a little bit of flow, in fact, flexibility in a package. It can say, we're going to post four to six times or just meet in the middle at five with the person who's having six. Be that mad if they got one less and the person has four, get right one more. So I would say don't get too caught up on little details like that. Now, if we're doing social media for this client and we're not doing it for anybody else, okay, we need to take, we need to take a look at that. Like, maybe that's just something we moving forward really shouldn't be offering anymore. But look for some synergies, look for some overlap. Also, what I want you to do is think about the work that you would want to be doing. Right. As we are growing as an agency, we are starting starting off with rates that are lower, packages that are more comprehensive. Like we talked about, we're experimenting. And now that we're starting to dial that in, we're working with probably larger clients, clients that do have larger budgets for our work. What would we want to offer them? And then you can always come back to that good, better, best type of package. What's a good one, what's a better one and what's a best one. And then as you start to formulate these new packages, start by going to the clients who closely align with some of those and then next contract, resign, come to them with that, say, hey, this is, we've just kind of reorganized some packages. This is what it's going to look like. Now if you find you've gotten a situation where once you start pricing things out and you really start looking at deliverables, you think, ooh, this is going to be, you know, like a $400 a month increase for this client, that could feel like a lot, especially if they've been used to paying the same price with you for a while. You're the agency owner, you've got a couple of options. You could go to them and say, it's $400 more a month. This is what it looks like. We could also stair step Them. What if we told them for the first, you know, four, five, six months, it's only going to be $200 a month more. And then for the second half of that contract, we're going to get them. That gives them time to recalibrate. It knows that you guys are working together to try and sort that out, but let this feel like a transition and not a flip of the switch.

Good advice. A couple of questions about this. I think some people will be thinking that putting themselves and their offering in a box, if you like, will sort of inhibit their creativity. And a lot of their clients come to them for sort of customized services. So how can we balance that desire for, you know, all that belief about creativity and customization versus productization?

Yeah, again, I think it comes back to making sure we're not going to be a consultant and we're going to be an agency. And then I think there is an opportunity when it's the right fit, when the budget allows. Can we do a custom project for somebody? Yeah, I mean, it's our agency. Ultimately, we can do. Right. Whatever we want, but we don't want that to be the backbone of the work that we're doing. Some other things you can consider, especially if you're maybe still navigating what that product tie service may look like or what you want it to look like, you could even consider doing some maybe like what people would call an intensive or a VIP day. This, this idea of almost like getting paid for the proposal, do an audit, do an uncovering of what they actually need, and then you can start to create service offerings and stuff that. That align with that. Something else to look out for too, is, and I think really touches on this too. If I feel like I need to have very different approaches, I really still need a lot of flexibility. I probably also need to dial in my target audience more. If everybody's still feeling like they need very different or very flexible, that's probably maybe the first place I need to look is maybe I'm serving too many different types of clients.

Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think it's worth emphasizing that to make any of this really work. I mean, to make any agency really work, you need to have super clarity on your niche or your niche. You need to be really clear about who you serve. So who is your ideal target customer in that space? And then you can start to do this stuff because if you, if you're trying to be everything to everybody, this is going to fail and your whole agency is going to fail. Let me just ask you one question that is a superbly important byproduct of doing this that we haven't really talked about yet, and that is that this will have a big impact on your profitability as an agency. So can you just talk us through why that is the case and you know why that's another kind of reason that we should be cheering on Productization.

Yeah. So I think there's a few things, really, even from sales all the way through delivery. So, one, we want to make it easy for people to buy from us. And when we're getting on a sales conversation and it feels a bit like, what do you want? What do you. What do you want us to do for you? Oh, we could do this or we could do that. We could do that. It makes it hard for me as the consumer and potential client to know this is what I need, this is who I want to work with. Because they're likely coming to you because this is something that they're not equipped to handle internally for whatever reason. So they need somebody to tell them, this is what you need and this is what it looks like. So right out the gate, you should see more sales conversions. Because of that clarity, people understand what they're buying. They're. They're ready to buy it. Now we're looking at actual client delivery. As we talked about a little bit earlier, when team members are coming to you with questions, there's lots of conversations in Slack and email. We're having lots of team meetings. What's going on with the client today? What's going on with the client today? Your admin time is just racking up. And when you have a productized service, you've got that standardization. Everybody knows what they're supposed to go and do and what it looks like. If I say they have the social media package, I know that includes five posts a week on two platforms, and we're going to throw in two reels. I know what that looks like. I don't need to come back and ask questions. I know they get two rounds of revisions or three rounds of revisions. I know when to ask the agency owner or tell them that I'm having a problem. So those efficiencies really help with your profitability and your bottom line. And then that even moves on to things like capacity management. When I know how much time it takes, then I know how many clients I can handle. I know how many team members I need to support those clients.

And of course, one of the reasons why so many agencies lose their profits is because of over servicing. And because they haven't got clarity on their scope of work. And productization enables you to really nail in your scope of work because you become laser clear from day one exactly what's included and therefore what isn't included. And it probably becomes easier for more junior members of staff to kind of push back a little bit on clients where they're often scared to do that because now they've got really good clarity about what's included. So when the client says that dreaded, can you just. And in their mind it's a 20 minute piece of work, but in reality it's a two hour piece of work. And of course those can you just add up quickly? Well, we've now got a better way of managing that. Right. So let me just ask you one other thing. It'd be interesting to see if we agree on this, but where? This sounds like a silly question really, but where do you promote these packages? Would you suggest to people that they clearly articulate these packages on their website? Would you suggest they put the pricing on the website? What's your thoughts on where and when we promote the packages?

Yeah, I think there is some mixed reviews or mixed feedback out there about how best to go about that. I think depending on your type of business, there could be an opportunity to experiment with that. I am a fan of including pricing, even if it's a bit of a starting at or something in your intake questionnaire or form that helps give them a bit of an anchor rate. So if working with you costs a minimum of $5,000 a month, I need to know that. And so if you don't want to put $5,000 a month, you could even have on your intake form, like what's your annual revenue? And if that annual revenue starts at like half a million dollars, I go, ooh, this goes, this maybe is not for me. And then people at that point can self select out. So from that standpoint, I am a big fan of having some way people can understand your pricing. And then in terms of actually getting down into the like super deliverables, I usually keep those a little more high level on the website. Mostly because you don't want to bog them down before they've had a sales conversation with them. If I'm looking at it thinking, oh, I don't need a lead magnet, I don't need that, well, I may not know, I might actually need that. So we want to really speak more to the overarching goals, what we're going to accomplish, and then let those details come Farther down the sales pipeline.

Yeah. And it's good. I kind of almost agree with you and all that you just said. I think it's super important that we qualify people out very quickly if they don't have the budget. And there's a time and a place to ascertain that in that kind of setup call process. But I'm personally not a big fan of people promoting their prices on their website because I think it, it commoditizes them a little bit. Excuse me. And it kind of makes the customer look at the wrong thing. What I really want the customer to do is relate that I understand their pain and I have a solution to solve their pain. And like you said, we need to have a chat about that first of all. But on the other hand, I don't want to spend time talking to somebody who's got £500 to spend when I'm charging 500, £5,000amonth. So totally get that as well. So just to sort of wrap the. My last, my last question before we wrap this up is, are there, can you think of any common pitfalls that agency owners should be aware of when making this transition and any advice on avoiding any of those pitfalls?

Yes. So there's a couple of pitfalls. One I spoke on just a little bit and that was don't start creating packages for people who are not your ideal client. Right. If we already know they're not a good fit, let's not try and accommodate them. Let's look ahead. The same can go with the opposite. If you have a large anchor client and they are an anomaly, let's not try and create those package or cram them into a little box. Those are the type of things you just let happen naturally until you've got a better revenue stream and you feel more stable and secure with what you've got there. The other thing is, don't get caught up in every what if. So I see this happen a lot is we say, okay, we're going to include, you know, a website in this package. Well, sometimes people have it or sometimes they don't, or some what if they need this. Don't what if yourself. So I always say, if this would work 75, 80% of the time, then you're good. We don't need to think about every random one off. Let that be your guide. Would this work 75 or 80% of the time? Yeah. Okay, then, then roll with that because you are starting, you're starting that transition and there will, during this transition period, maybe be little shifts and changes. And when you think about it, if you know I have this package and included is a sales flyer, well, 75 or 80% people are going to need that sales flyer. The 20% that don't, it's included. Take it or leave it, right? Like, cool, I'll make you another one. Or if you don't want it, that's okay. But don't get yourself stuck where, well, I'm going to reduce the price by this much because they didn't need that sales flyer or I'll let them switch it out. And I'm going to give this. You've gotten yourself right back in to bespoke offers.

Yeah, absolutely. Good advice there. And I think the old 8020 rule is a great rule to apply to everything we do in a business. And in this case, like you say, if it fits for 80% of the clients, then you're good to go. Just lastly, before we jump in, the last question. If I'm a very bespoke services client agency, today I'm listening to this podcast, nodding my head, thinking I need to do this. What would be the typical length of time you think it would take? I know this is probably how long is a piece of string, but from like being a very bespoke services agency to becoming more of a productized agency, what would be that length of time I should think this is going to take?

Yeah, that is a great question. And obviously there could be a lot of variables in that, but I do feel like I could give a range with the number of clients we've worked with and what I've seen. I have seen some do it in a matter of a few weeks. And again, we're not flipping the switch for our clients. Right. We're getting that clarity internally about what that looks like. I have seen it happen in as soon as just a few weeks, but I have seen it take up to a few months. So I would say, you know, on the long end, you know, four or five months, but potentially as soon as six or eight weeks. And that would depend on your clarity around your target audience, what your service offerings look like and really your own mindset and fear. How much resistance are you putting on yourself?

Well, that's a whole other. There's a whole other conversation we haven't even touched upon because I absolutely believe that 50% of the success of doing this is going to be mindset and overcoming some of those blocking blockages. And the sort of wrap up my thoughts on that is that really do your research, get your ducks in a row before you go to launch this, because I'm sure you've done it. I certainly have done this many times where I've had an idea. I haven't really thoroughly thought it through or researched it well enough. I've gone hell for leather to launch it and then it's not successful and then I've kind of screwed myself a bit. I've done that a lot in the past and had to learn the hard way that that wasn't a good way to do it. So do your research, work out what a plan of action is. Put that in place first of all. So everything's ready to go and then. And then launch. Let me just ask you the final question that I ask all of my guests on the podcast, which is if you could go back in time and give your younger self just starting out in business a piece of advice, what would it be?

You know, I was thinking about this because I knew you were going to ask me. And for me, I would have hired sooner. I really dragged my feet to bring in support for my business, even at an assistant level, social media support. I really dragged my feet on that. And I think it did hurt me to start. I think it did impact my growth. And I think this speaks a little bit to what you mentioned earlier about us all feeling a little bit like a control freak. And what I came to realize, that's like the beauty of this work. When we have standard packages, when we have SOPs, when we have a lot of clarity and we have templates and we have things we can lean on, I know they're doing it how I want them to do it. Right. I know there's a lot of consistency. And then, you know, too, I think some of it was my own mindset also about feeling like, oh, I should know how to be the copywriter in my business and the designer in my business and the SEO specialist in my business. And could I watch hours and hours of YouTube videos and figure all that out? Probably. But is that really what I should be, should have spent my time on? No.

No, absolutely not. It's something. It's funny, isn't it, that we often think we have to be able to do everything before we can delegate it. And that is kind of of crazy, really. A really smart leader of a business knows their weaknesses and knows the areas that they're strong in and they love doing and gets rid of the other things as quickly as they can. But I think a lot of people will be nodding their head at that higher, sooner. I definitely fall in that camp as well. So, Melissa, thank you so much for your time today. If people wanted to find out more about you, where's the best places for them to go? And we'll include these details in the show notes.

Yes, you can definitely find me on LinkedIn. And then also I actually have a quiz that we've rolled out and it will help you uncover where maybe some of these bottlenecks are. Some of your blind spots are in terms of scaling your agency. So if you just go over to youragencyauthority.com quiz, you can take that and then you'll get some results that'll get you moving in the right direction.

Fantastic. I'm just scribbling away quickly there. We'll make sure we include all those details in the show notes and go take the quiz because those things are always really enlightening and I might go and do that myself. But anyway, Melissa, thank you so much for joining us today. Really insightful episode. I'm sure the listeners will have got lots of food for thought from this, and that's always the goal of the podcast. So I appreciate your time.

Yes, thank you so much for having me on.