How To Resource Your Agency With Remote Workers With David Wain-Heapy And Bachir Smahi

Hey everybody and welcome to the latest episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. I am really excited to be joined today by David Ambashir from Prodigy. I'm Rob Da Costa and this is the Agency Accelerator Podcast. As someone who has stood in your shoes, having started, grown and sold my own agency, I know just how it feels in the ups and downs of agency life. So this podcast aims to ease your journey just a little bit by sharing mine and my guests experiences and advice as you navigate your way to growing a profitable, sustainable and enjoyable business. So we're going to be talking about remote hiring and offshore resourcing and how that can be one of the ways of solving the sort of talent shortage that so many agencies struggle with. But before we jump into that, I just want to say hey guys, welcome to the podcast and just tell us a little bit about your background because I know prior to starting Prodigy, you ran an e Commerce agency together 14 years. So tell us us a little bit about that first of all and then we'll talk about selling that and then we'll move on to talk about resourcing.

Sure. Hey Robert. Well, thank you first for inviting us. Yeah. So David and I worked together, God, for the best part of the last 14 years. We founded Best Response Media August 2009. Best Response Media was a specialist e commerce agency, full service. So we did everything from designing and developing e commerce infrastructure for big retailers and merchants as well as provided various marketing services such as SEO, PPC and the like. We've done that for 13 years and then we were acquired last year by the Brave Bison Group. And for the last two, three years, we've been now in parallel, but now completely focused on Prodigy, which is a business focused on building global distributed teams for agencies, software companies and anybody who needs tech talent effects.

Fantastic. So let me just ask you about when you started Best Response. Did you plan at the beginning that one day you would exit and sell the business? What was your big game plan then? Or was it just about sort of surviving and seeing what happened?

Good question. Go on, David, you go for this one.

We had, I wouldn't say we had a plan. We definitely had a desire, an objective like you mentioned, I think especially in our world, in the agency world, in the tech world, everyone has the dream of the exit. But you know, you can't really have such a strategic plan when you've just started. But yes, it was always in our mind. But we quickly learned that let's focus on actually building a great business and everything else is going to follow rather than Chasing that exit because you do something great, build a good audience, good customer base, people are going to start knocking on your door trying to buy you. And that's what happened.

And did the idea for Prodigy come along because of the way you resourced your agency?

It came completely organically because as an agency, one of the biggest challenges that any, anybody in this business will know is just finding the right talent. And it's a constant need, is something that you need day in, day out. As you grow in, you need more people. As people potentially kind of leave or, you know, move on, then you need to replace them. But mostly as you're growing, you need to keep growing your workfor. And the pattern for that need is not linear. You could win a new customer and suddenly you have a lot of work that needs to be done way beyond your capacity, and you need to scale up very quickly. So that need for flexing has always been a challenge. And even way before COVID many years ago, we started realizing that we need to start to find a better way of doing this instead of that mad rush whenever we need, like we need four or five developers, we need another two project managers, and having to kind of find those people. And we all know when you r hires don't turn up as well as you want them to be, you end up settling for what you can get as opposed to what you really want or need. So initially, reluctantly, we started thinking, okay, shall we look beyond our geographical area and where can we look? And without boring you with all the details, after a lot of trial and error and a few experiences that did not turn out so well, we did end up kind of working out how to do it and how to do it very well. And that has become, eventually has become one of our strengths. One of our advantages over the competition is being able to find really good talent, leveling up with every single hire in terms of capabilities, in terms of know how. And then at one point we start realizing, okay, we might have a business within a business here, our ability to kind of source really good talent, do it well, do it quickly. This is something that everyone else wants. And that's how it came about. And we started offering first to our clients the ability to kind of do staff augmentation and kind of hiring full time or at least dedicated resources to work on that account and that account only. And then from then on, we thought, okay, well, we could then open this up to a bigger audience and yeah, the rest is history.

Yeah, it's interesting because one of the pieces of advice I always Give my clients, if they're thinking about selling their business is to have a succession plan, know what you're going to do next. And in your case, like you said, Basheer, you had a business within a business, so you kind of already knew that actually if we do exit better response then we're going to focus on this resourcing business. Before we jump into that, just tell me about actually what led you to sell and how that all came about. And I'm also interested to ask you about your, how long you were tied into the earn out, which obviously often a lot of people are tied in for two, three, four years. So tell me about that process.

Yeah, sure. So, but like we, like we mentioned just now, it had always been on our, on our radar that we would want to do it eventually. And we had had approaches over the years. As we, as we became more established, more recognized in the industry, we got more people knocking on our door often the first time it happened, obviously very exciting, we were like, wow, someone's approached us and they're interested in buying us.

And then you people actually like us.

You quickly realize it's not as simple as that. They often go out, they'll approach lots of agencies, especially if they're paying for an M and a person to go out and find some potential acquisitions for them. So you also learn that it's a very resource intensive process trying to sell and there's no guarantee that it's going to work. So actually we realized after having a couple of conversations with interested parties that we needed to be really sure that there's going to be a good synergy there and not kid ourselves because if there isn't, it's going to be expensive from lawyers, it's going to be expensive from, you know, not being able to focus on running the business and you know, other factors. So we were a little bit more reluctant when we were, when we were getting approaches. We'd do our own due diligence on them. We'd see, we'd ask them more pertinent questions about what they're looking for and how serious they were and all the rest of it. And we were able to sort of filter out the acquirers as much as they were filtering out the, the companies to buy the, the end acquirer for us. Brave Bison we learned pretty quickly that there was going to be an amazing fit there. They already had a distributed team, they already had a really strong commerce division, but they were missing Magento Adobe Commerce, which is what we specialized in. They'd already done acquisitions before, so a big one. So they were acquiring and integrating companies into the larger group and they had a big strategy for making further acquisitions and building a larger group on into the future. So that already gave us a bit of comfort that we can see where we could fit in. There's a hole in their offering that we can fill. They're used to running distributed teams. They've got people all over the world, they knew how to manage them, they've got the processes, which is all great. And the people, they seemed nice when we met with them. So we felt there was some good chemistry there and we thought, okay, this is maybe this is worth exploring.

Great. And one interesting thing that you told me when we were sort of having our pre prep discussions was that your earnout period wasn't that long. And part of the reason for that was because you were a very process driven agency and therefore it was pretty easy to extricate yourself from that and not be have everything really dependent on you.

Indeed, indeed. And we worked on this for a long time. We were always aware that when the time comes and when we would like to exit, this is going to be a big thing because you know, you want to de risk this for the potential acquirer. Ultimately what you're selling in the service industry, in our business, typically what you're sending is those relationships with clients. So if you end up purchasing a business and all of a sudden everyone starts canceling their contracts and not being happy with the transition and effectively you're buying nothing. So we needed to make sure that we have a really strong management team, really strong process driven business where even if David and I were not around, things would carry on running as normal. And we've worked on that for a number of years. It was also very apparent to the acquirer that that was the case. They got to interview seniorship, the senior leadership team and they could see that, you know, the business was able to run that way. But for us it was a red line because we heard a lot of horror stories. We've done our research as well. A lot of these earn out periods end up not going as well as people hope for, especially if they last for like three years. Somebody who's run a business and used to taking all the decisions suddenly to be dependent on somebody else for the earn out to be performance based over which you might not have as much control as you might like to. All of these factors kind of make for, you know, in many cases very bad experiences. And also we had Prodigy, which we were very excited about and we Thought, you know, what if we're going to cut ties with Best response media and move on, we want to be able to focus on that. So we had that conversation, that frank conversation really early on in the process and we spoke about their potential concerns about how the whole transition is going to happen. And we explained that, you know, you have customers, you have staff, we have partnerships and we have process. And these things are all very neat, very clearly defined. And then yeah, they did their due diligence and they were happy to. So I advise anybody who's going through that process to work on their setup before they start talking acquisition. Because ultimately, you know, the more risk an acquirer will see in your business, the more they'd you to stick around and pay you as little as possible up front until they make sure that, you know, the risk is lower towards the end. From your point of view as a seller, you want to do the opposite. You want to make sure that, you know, you derisk it. From your point of view, get as much of your money as upfront as possible and have the earn out or that transition period as short as possible.

Yeah, that's such a good advice there and something that the listeners should really take away from this, which is, you know, document your processes because that makes you less valuable to your agency, which is ultimately what you want to be if you're going to sell. I've just got off a client call before this call and we they're working on a five year exit plan and actually one of the things they're really working on at the moment is getting everything out of their head and putting it in onto paper. So really good piece of advice for everybody who's listening. So let's fast forward to now you left there, you've already started Prodigy. You kind of explained why you started it because that was a solution that you were solving for yourselves. But just tell us a little bit about the business today and the kind of clients you're working for and the kind of problems that they have regarding resourcing.

We're really excited about it because it's solving a problem that we solve for ourselves and a problem that's continuing to hang around. You know, there's still a massive tech talent store shortage in the uk, but in, in all over the world. I know that there's been some economic issues recently and downturn in certain industries, but our industry, the agency world, the SaaS world, the fintech world, is still booming and they still just cannot get enough good people fast enough. And the fact that we we essentially have a playbook for this because we did it for ourselves and it's just so, it's so exciting that we're going out and we're working with agencies, with Fintech, with SAS companies and finding all sorts of people, developers, digital marketers, project managers. And every time our resources are bringing us some great new people, we would hire these, these are people that we would have hired when we run an agency. And you know, being able to bring this kind of talent to the people that we're working with and the speed in which we're able to find them compared to traditional methods is really pleasing and it's just working phenomenally well.

So can you share with us some of the sort of objections that some people might have about hiring remote workers rather than people more locally to them, whether they remote working, but they get together once a week or whatever. But if I'm hiring someone in a different country, I certainly hear some objections around that. So do you want to share with us some of the things that you hear and the answers to overcoming those objections?

Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean the obvious one is there are concerns about quality, about communication skills and about managing these resources. And to that, you know, the same applies to what applies to your office based or HQ based staff. Ultimately you want to hire, well, you want to hire people that fit your criteria, whether that's, you know, their skill sets, whether that's their language capabilities or communication capabilities, both verb and written, cultural fit, personality fit, all of these things. You would do that whether you're hiring somebody to be in your office or remote and distributed. The management point of view where they say potentially, you know, if somebody, you can't see them, how are you going to manage them? Well, same applies, you're not going to sit down in your office watching everybody's screen. You measure an output and for that you have processes and you have various methods to ensure that your staff and your employees are doing the work that they're paid to do and they're engaged and they're satisfied and fulfilled in the workplace. Again, the same thing applied for distributed teams. Ultimately we find these objections to be less or they come a lot less from larger, more established, mature businesses. It's typically something that we hear from slightly smaller agencies and we've been there, so we completely understand where that comes from. So we try to help them understand that, you know, you need to be, you need to move from being sort of a micromanaged business where you look at every single person, what they're doing to a Process driven business where you have, you know, proper management structures for our, for the majority of our clients, they tend to be slightly more mature and they have these processes in place. So the biggest thing for them is making sure that they get the best quality possible. So, you know, skill set is an opportunity to level up. And the second thing obviously is cost and protecting their margins. So for a business that is more mature, trying to build, whether it's to hire an overflow for an existing team, maybe three or four members or just one member, to kind of with a specialist skill set or on the other end building a complete team or a hub somewhere else globally, whether it be, it could be in Eastern Europe or further afield. These types of companies, they tend to have a better grasp on how to manage teams because they're already businesses potentially that have hundreds of people, so they're not going to be in that mindset. But for anybody who hasn't done this already and hired remotely, I guess you just need to have the same process that applies to both remote distributed or people in your offices to be more process driven. I guess there are certain things that are, that apply more to somebody working from home. So even distributed, the two types of somebody who's working from home, home based versus having a hub or an office with another team that is based away from your headquarters. And I guess the advice for somebody who's working from home, when you're assessing them to join your team, you need to look for certain characteristics. For somebody who's always based at home, they need to be able to self motivate somebody who can stay on task. And there are ways and means that we can do that and we can, we can share that in more detail with whoever's interested. But yeah, these are some of the objections I guess that we come across.

And I think the point you made about stop micromanaging and start focusing on outputs is a really good point. And I think the pandemic sort of forced a lot of this because suddenly we couldn't see people, but we did need to focus on the things that they were doing rather than what time of day they were doing them. So let me ask you the question. I think a lot of people buy into the idea of hiring technical roles like developers or SEO experts or something remotely. Does it work for all kinds of roles? Like obviously one thing I'd be thinking is that if I've got an account manager that needs to have good spoken English and good written English, could I find that person remotely or do I really need to find Someone in the UK for that. So do you think it works for all roles or is it just more for technical roles?

Well, that's a good question. Bashir and me still laugh about this. I'm naturally quite stubborn and initially we focused on developers. We got that working really well. We were really happy. And Bashir would say to me, oh, let's try design. No, we're in London. The best designers are in London. That's crazy. It's ridiculous. Even though we had Italian designers that were working for us in London, eventually, just through no choice, we were struggling to find good, good designers at an affordable price. I conceded, okay, Michelle, I'll have a look, but it won't work. I'm convinced it's not going to work. And then lo and behold, we ended up building a design team in Serbia that was world class and yeah, cost effective as well. And they stayed with us for a long time, which was, which is amazing. So then it was like, okay, well if designers can work and developers can work, how about digital marketers? So we then built an SEO team across Croatia and Serbia. Again, they were phenomenal, delivered amazing results for our clients and yeah, they were so, so good. They also built tons of links for our own best response website from massively high domain authority domains using the, the reporter helper, reporter out requests. Did some really, really good stuff there. And then it was about what, what other, what other roles could we, could we do? Well, we were nervous, we were nervous about client facing stuff. How are the clients going to react? But then obviously Covid came along and everyone's remote and distributed anyway, so we actually, again, our back was against the wall. We were struggling to find good, affordable project managers. And in our agency we had our project manager, we had a project manager, account manager hybrid role because it's quite a technical offering. But then they also needed to be a bit commercially focused and it worked well having that combined. Anyway, long story short, we, we had, our PM team was spread across Ukraine, Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia and then all led. But we had a team leading in London. But they were top level, highly educated, very professional, very experienced and the clients loved them. So yeah, really, the vast majority of our agency was remote. By the end There was probably four or five of us in the UK and 40 plus scattered around the world.

Right, that's good to hear. And as you've been saying, you know, the talent shortages have been going on well since I've been running this business since 2007 and isn't likely to go away. So we've got to start getting creative about solving that talent shortage. So if I'm an agency and I come to you with a brief of someone I'm looking for, how do you go about finding that person? What's your process at Prodigy?

Right, so it depends. I mean, not everyone comes to us to look for one person. Most people come to us to look for one person, but it looks, they look to us as an alternative of hiring as a whole. So more of a comprehensive solution to their hiring process or adding another method of acquiring talent, be it building teams and large teams sometimes. But it could also, you know, be one person or a very highly specialized person. Our approach will differ depending on what it is you're after, but we always start with the discovery phase. We need to understand your business, how you do things and is distributed for you. I mean, you asked a question earlier that can every role be remote? Well, no, probably. I don't know. Surgeons can be remote. You know, there are many roles that, you know, maybe have before for the digital world, for the, for the tech world. A lot of the roles can be, the majority of roles can be remote, but where can it be? So for example, is there any considerations that need to be taken into account? Data protection, for example, anybody who's working on your customer data, do they need to be having access to that live data? In which case do we need to keep within the GDPR kind of region, such as the EU or not time zones? Where do your clients live? Would it be helpful to have everybody close like one plus minus two hours from, from London and uk or you have clients across the pond potentially where it would make sense to have people, maybe in Latin America. So we will spend some time understanding the business and then coming up with solutions. Also there is the question of do you want to hire full time or do you want freelancers? Is it the length of a project or is it an ongoing engagement? So we'll try understand all of these factors and come up with really good solutions that will suit your business. Did I answer the question? What was the question again? Was it like how do we approach this?

Right, yeah, it's just the process for actually going and finding them. But that's. Yeah, you've answered that question. Just, let's just talk a little bit about some of the concerns that people might have. If I've hired a remote worker, how do I manage them and how do I keep them engaged? Let's assume, because I think a large percentage of this audience are running sort of small to mid sized agencies, so they may not be coming to you for a team, but they might be hiring one or two people and they probably are homeworkers. How do I manage them and how do I keep them motivated?

Well, you manage them in the same ways that you'll manage your existing team. So say for example you're hiring a developer and they're joining an existing development team. Well, you're going to have an onboarding process to introduce them to the projects. They're going to be working on how you deliver the projects, how you run your sprints, what's the cadence of your ceremonies and all these other meetings and everything that you do there. So they're already, then they're going to be integrated from that side. So they're going to be attending the standups on a daily basis. They're going to be doing the retrospectives every couple of weeks or week depending on how you run your sprints. So from that and they're also obviously they're going to have the assigned work, they're going to be doing their estimates estimates. So talking about, you know, the output side, you're going to see the work that they're doing. If you know they've got 170 hours in the month and you know, take off other time but say for a sprint they've, they've estimated 60 hours worth of work and if they're not delivering that or not coming close, then you can quickly see you've got a problem. Ideally they're going to have a team leader, a manager, someone who's already running one to ones on a weekly basis or at least bi weekly with, with the rest of the team and they're going to, they're going to slot into that cadence of meetings as well. Generally in onboarding, you know, a few more catch ups and early on meetings to make sure that they're scheduled and in and up to speed with everything. But generally speaking there's sorts of things that you should already be doing with your existing team. Wherever they are is what you want to be replicating with them. And then in terms of keeping them motivated, making sure that they're learning, making sure they're developing, making sure that they're, they're actually delivering what you expect. And if you see them, maybe they're falling short, perhaps there's areas of their skill set that they need to have a bit of support or training on, then delivering them, delivering that to them and also making sure that they're incorporated in the fun side of the agency. What water cooler chats have you got? What things do you Talk about what? Games, quizzes, other kind of stuff you do just to make them join in on the jokes and the fun.

And the agency.

Agency. The amazing thing that we were finding with just the globalization of everything is we were all watching the same TV programs, we were all watching the same films, we were all following the same big events, you know, reading the same books. Yeah, exactly. When you got things like football tournaments and you've got people from all these different countries, it creates a lot of fun, friendly competition and other reasons for people to engage together.

Yeah. So I mean the big message there, sort of the obvious one really is treat remote workers in exactly the same way you would treat an in house person. I guess being a little bit more conscious about some of that more sociable stuff. You obviously have to. You can't see someone across the office, so you have to make more of an effort. But I think it's good advice. Let's just talk a little bit about hiring freelancers because I've always been a big believer, although I'm totally open to being disagreed with on this point, but I've always been a big believer and indeed advised my clients and I've seen it not work, that it's very difficult to build an agency just solely on freelancers because freelancers often have their own agenda. So if I am hiring remote freelancers, how do I manage them and how do I keep them aligned to my agency as well and not just, you know, acting as a freelancer?

Well, that's a very good question. And even in the world of freelancers, there's two types of freelancers, I'd say, and two ways to engage with freelancers. There is the project based, defined timeline freelancer. And if it's a short amount of time, say six months, and you know that you're going to part ways out of that project, then obviously you still, I still recommend that you engage with that employee and you know, be close to them, just like you'd be with any team member, like you would do with anybody else. But I think where the real value is is when you have somebody with no defined end date to the projects. So somebody who's going to carry working with you or at least maybe work regularly with you, in which case what we were saying earlier is about developing that sort of, you know, aligning the objectives of that, but instead of just having a task driven relationship where you say to them, okay, you know what, today you're going to, you know, choose a metaphor, you're going to paint this wall and you're going to, you know, lay these bricks. But if you show somebody the end results that you're trying to do, which is like building this beautiful building, they're going to be much more engaged, you know, they're going to be aligned with your objectives. And the same thing with any types of projects, be it designer, be it developer, projects manager. They need to buy into the overall objectives of your organization or the team they're working with. You'll get way better output from them. They'll be happier and more engaged with the work. So that's why I recommend, I suppose, a lot of people where they have bad relationship with freelancers because they treat them just like some sort of a production facility where they'll send the work and they'll expect the output. But we are all human beings and it takes more to get more from a human being. And investing in that stuff definitely pays dividends. What you were saying earlier as well, you were asking David how to get better out of employees in general. I think investing time in developing your organization's brand. What do you stand for? What sort of culture do you want to have? A lot of people confuse culture with having a pool table and, you know, having a few beers once a week. But actually having a good culture is where people are heard and their opinions and their voices are taken into account when formulating strategies. And we've done a lot of that and tried various approaches. And without fail, the more you engage, the more you hear people, the more you try to apply their contributions to your overall process, not necessarily just to their role. They have almost like they buy in whatever you're doing. They become, you know, stakeholders in your success as opposed to just somebody who's there to kind of get a task done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really good advice. And yeah, I think just being paying attention to all of that stuff and being mindful about it is going to make such a big difference. Would you advise if you were working with a client and they were working with a freelancer in this ongoing basis, is there a point that you can see where you need to switch from that freelance relationship to actually making them a full time employee or replacing them with a full time employee?

Yes, yes. And that's not just dictated by, that's the stated by a number of factors. In some cases they could be tax benefits. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but in certain geographies they're cracking. The tax kind of regimes are changing constantly and where before used to be more advantageous to kind of, you know, let somebody handle their own tax affairs. More governments are not to the fact that these people are paying less tax than the overall population. So they taxing them more. So there is more benefits to hiring them directly. Now if you don't have the scale of hiring too many people and having an entity in that country, that's fine. There are solutions for that as well. So there are employment of record solutions where you hire via a third party company so you give them for all intents and purposes the same experience as a person who's full time employee here in the uk Benefits is benefits sometimes can cost less to an employer but give much more value to the employee, be it insurance or it could be, you know, various other things. And the list is very long of what you could do to create the perception of bigger value for your team. But it really depends. There is no hard and fast rule. It depends on your organization, your setup, the scale, the size of the hubs, the taxation regime in the places they are hired. So there are a few things to take into account and hopefully that's why we exist, so we can help companies navigate these things and have the best experience, have the best employees and give a good experience to said employees.

Yeah, I guess you're highlighting the complexities and the different legal setups of different countries, which is obviously where you guys can help out. So fascinating conversation. I didn't get a chance to ask you about how you make your partnership work, which is perhaps a topic for another podcast.

Another day we fight when the camera turns.

Let me ask you the question that I ask everybody and let's because you guys work together a long time so it'll be interesting to see if you've got different answers to this. But. But let me ask David first, if you go back in time and give your younger self a piece of advice just starting out, what would it be?

That's a really good question. I think it's trying to edit that down to one thing because there's a long list of like do all of these things and you're going to get there quicker. I think I'd probably say planning a little bit sooner. When you start a new business, you could get carried away with planning and setting yourself targets and goals and everything, but it's all arbitrary because you've got nothing to base it on. You don't actually know what's going to work. You don't know what piece of activity is going to work. So very much in the early days, it's literally about to go out there and just generate enough money. So you can stay in business so you can pay your bills and you can pay staff and you keep figuring out what that business is going to be. But there's going to be a point where you've done that, might be a year, two years, where you've actually got a bit of a track record, you've got a bit of an understanding about out what works, what doesn't work and get, make a plan. Where do you want to get to in the next few years and how are you going to get there and what you can scale based on some real, based on some real data. We got there eventually, we started planning eventually and it was really helpful for us. But I think if we'd done it a bit sooner, it might have been great. And obviously we're applying that now with Prodigy. But yeah, planning a little bit, a little bit sooner would probably be the advice.

Good advice. Bashir, let me ask you the same question. If you go back in time and give your younger self some advice, what would that be?

Yeah, like David said, there are so many things. But I've been thinking about this since you sent that email, actually. And if I was to choose just one, it's not too dissimilar to what David said in the sense that instead of trying to, from our experience at least, when we started the agency, we'd done, we've done a lot of services, we created a lot of different solutions for our clients and we discovered that we were good at something and then we added something else. My advice is to find something, be a specialist in one thing and as much as you can be, even if it's a niche very small, but if you're really good at it, I think that's where your real opportunity lies for you to be distinctive and to stand out from the rest. But I guess that's the one thing that if I was to kind of, you know, send a little message to myself maybe 15 years ago, that's what I'd say. Don't try to do everything, don't try to be everything for everyone. You know, just stick with one thing that, you know, we have, we have a lot of knowledge in and build on that.

Yeah, yeah, good advice. It's the advice I give people every single day. So both pieces of advice. Actually, I think when we start out a business, we're just trying to survive, aren't we? So we're never thinking about a long term plan. But there's a certain point where we've proved we can survive and we need to have a plan. And I also think that people often think the solution to growth is have more things. Actually, the solution to growth is be seen as a specialist and get your pricing set accordingly. So good bits of advice. Thank you for that. Now, if people want to find out more about you guys and Prodigy, where would they go?

They can go on our website. They can contact us directly. Our door is always open for chat and advice and hopefully exploring ways we can add value to people who we could help, potentially.

Our website's at Prodigy team and it's P R O D I G I team and you can obviously connect with us on LinkedIn as well. Always happy to chat with people. If anyone just wants to have a chat about anything to do with running agencies and our experiences and distributed teams, it's yeah, we always enjoy having these conversations.

Great. Well, I will make sure we include all of those links in the show notes attached to this episode. I just want to say to both of you, thank you so much. This is actually the first episode I've done with two people at once, so I think we did pretty well at not talking over each other too much. Really appreciate your time.

Thank you for inviting us.

Yeah, I know the listeners will have got some really good nuggets out of that. And so we always know that's been a good episode when that happens. So, again, thanks so much.

Thanks, Robin.

Thanks, Rob. That was great.

Take care. Bye.