Interview with Jez Kay - The Importance of Authenticity

Welcome to today's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. I'm excited to have Jez Kay with me today and we're talking about the importance of empathy and authenticity when we're running our agencies. We're also going to spend a little bit of time talking about pivoting, how to use storytelling in your way you market yourself, and also the importance of sharing failure as well as success when you are promoting your agency. And finally, we get to use the word collywobble, which is a word that I haven't heard for a long time and it made me chuckle. So let's get on with today's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast.

Accelerate your agency's profitable growth with tools, tips and value added interviews with your host agency owner and coach, Rob DaCosta.

In today's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. I'm really excited to have Jez Kay with me. And Jez is a remote communications consultant. Now, I'll let Jez explain exactly what that entails. His experience mixes corporate training and service with digital systems delivery, video and audio production, and he's worked with lots of different types of organizations. So welcome, Jez. I'm sure I've just given a bit of a garbled introduction about what you do, but why don't you tell us what you do and what remote control communications consultant is?

Well, the term is really inspired by what's happened in the last few months. There are a lot of organizations and leaders of organizations who have marvellous products and services, but who can't necessarily communicate them in the right sort of way. And I do that very much in the virtual space. And that can be all manner of things from helping them to create vlogs or, or podcasts like this one. But it may be something more like how do I run an effective zoom meeting? How do I engage with an audience remotely using this kind of video medium? Because video has become an essential part of the way that we communicate. And whether we see it as video or not, it's remote. And whether it's marketing communications or it's E learning or it's just having a conversation like we're having now, you have to turn up in a particular way. You have to be in particular way that isn't necessarily, you know, just chatting over a cup of coffee or going for a swim or, you know, doing something that interacts face to face and live. And my experience has helped me with.

This, is this drive towards this remote communications consultant and the things that you said is that driven because of what's been going on with the coronavirus is accelerated by it.

There is a perceived need, I think, for people to be. To live in this world of remoteness. And because of COVID the enormous boom to Zoom. Zoom. Boom, which is just, you know, extraordinary. Zoom is now a word like vacuum. I mean, sorry, hoover. It's become. It's become, you know, kind of trade a brand name that means something. It's a super brand in that sense. And because people have now we talk about zoom fatigue and all sorts of stuff that's happened in a very, very short time, despite the fact that Zoom's been around as a product for some time, it's in the last three months that everybody's talking about it. And obviously it's not just zoom, but it's the way that we communicate how people turn up, but not just that, how they present themselves. It kind of knocks into all those sort of things. Brand communication, personal branding. It's a significant move and I think it's here to stay, or rather here to develop and move forward with.

So, you know, another word of the moment is pivot, because a lot of businesses have had to pivot. So tell, before we jump into the kind of core of today's theme, which is all about authenticity, just tell us a little bit about how you've pivoted and what does that actually mean for you and why you've jumped into Kajabi and all the rest of it.

Well, absolutely. With me, I always think I'm like my mum. My mum was fantastic. She was a very good storyteller, but she was a person who was rather slow to react to certain things right the way through her life. I'm kind of similar. What I've done is I've considered where I'm at and what I can do to serve the business community. And in my case, it's really helping people to communicate, ostensibly and initially through specific media, like, for example, video or audio, but also the way they actually set themselves up to do it. So, for example, how do you tell a story in your business? Because storytelling is another one of these cliches, if you like, that's been banded around and was kind of, I think, kicked off by the agency world probably well over a decade ago to become this word that people often use, you have to be a great storyteller to. In order to convey your brand in the right sort of way. But I thought about it and I thought, well, actually, there is a method behind storytelling. And so that's one of the things that I'm going to be doing. So that's not just how to use video, it's about. I mean, it could apply in the real world as well. So the storytelling techniques. So that there'll be that kind of thing. And there'll also be modules, if you like, on confidence. Because one of the most important things, in fact, probably the first thing that people need to be able to face is how confident they are on camera or in this sort of space talking to someone so that they can record a podcast. And it's psychologically a big deal. I mean, I'm used to this sort of stuff, but even for me, there's a certain amount of collywobbles talking to someone like you. There is an element of sort of nerves with all these kind of things because you're letting go of yourself. And that's quite a personal thing. And in the business space, that's a kind of taboo area really. Or has been. We'll be talking about this later. I know, with authenticity, but it's very much linked. So a lot of what I do. Yes. Is to do with how to be authentic or how to be yourself when you're actually talking about your business.

And where are you in terms of the development of this online content?

Well, it's very fast track thing. I'm kind of still at the development stage and I work with a coach and his experience is quite different from mine, but he's a peer, so he's the same age. And it's almost the perfect match because that's kind of what I need. I need someone who's. Who's been in a very sort of structured space to help me structure my business. But the bit that I need help with is the strategizing and the planning.

Yeah, it's interesting. I've been in the online world for a long time in terms of selling stuff online and I've got loads of horror stories. I should do a podcast on this alone of my failure of selling online. I mean, I started probably about seven years ago and I thought, I know, I'm going to create a course on how to start your own business and gain financial freedom. And that tanked. And then I thought, I know I'm going to do a course on selling because everyone wants to know how to sell. And that tanked. And then I created a course on client and account management and that one actually did okay. And it still does. Okay, great. And then I created a mastermind group called the Agency Accelerator, which is how this podcast got its name. And that did okay. But then I embarked on a work with a coach who kind of said, right, Rob, you need to do this properly. But recently I've just launched my new coaching program called the Self Running Agency.

Oh, fantastic.

I have done a ton of research into understanding what jobs my clients are trying to get done when they hire me, what outcomes they're looking for, what pains they have. Because I think one of the problems certainly that I've made in the online world is assuming that I know what people want and assuming that I know best. And of course, it's very difficult to get your head above the parapet in the noisy world of the online world. So my advice to anybody who's doing this is make sure you validate your program before or your courses before you start doing any development, because you need to know that your marketplace wants it and you need to know exactly how to position it to get the nuances of how you market and sell it.

Right.

Otherwise you end up being lost, you know, and putting a lot of effort and getting not much return.

Yeah, well, I couldn't agree with you more, Rob. And I say that because that's the process that I'm going through at the moment because I've been lucky enough to hook up with this guy who's, who's my coach. If you understand the target audience that you're pitching to, then you stand a pretty good chance.

Good luck. Good luck. And you know, that's a good advert for having a coach as well, which I think we should all have. I mean, I've been coaching for 14 years. I'm old and gray and I still have a coach myself. So let's, let's just move on to today's topic, which is all about authenticity. And I was particularly keen to talk to you about this because I see so many people showing up either inconsistently if I know them, or inauthentic or unauthentic, whatever the right word is, if I don't know them. I mean, how many ads do you see for, I don't know, programs that are going to help you get rich quick. And there's a guy standing in front of a flashy car and all that stuff, and it just drives me crazy. And it made me laugh really, when we first started talking because someone I know reasonably well, a colleague of mine, Lee Jackson, who does the Agency Trailblazer podcast podcast, he posted something quite amusing recently on Facebook, which I'm sure he won't mind me sharing. And, and he works with web design companies and he's a T shirt wearing, bearded baseball cap kind of guy. And that's how he shows up now because that's how his clients look. But he. He posted a picture of him a few years ago when he was first starting out, you know, clean shaven, with a suit on, looking really uncomfortable, being very formal, doing kind of very scripted videos, and quickly realized that he wasn't authentic, that wasn't him, and that wasn't who his audience was, and it didn't work. So that's kind of why. That's my take on this and that's kind of why I was keen to talk to you today, Jess. So just give me your sort of views and your experiences of. Of this authenticity.

It's an interesting thing because it's difficult in a way to know where to start. But I think probably I thought about this and I think the best way to start is something that people, a lot of people know, which is the now, I think, quite famous Dove ad, you know, where they're doing the interview. So there's a guy doing sketches of women who actually are sitting behind a screen or a veil and they're describing themselves and he sketches them. And then they get someone who the person who's just been sketched has been talking to into the room and then they ask them about that person who's just been sketched. And the two sketches, one. One is. Looks not very nice. That's the one that's been describ by the woman who's been sketched, and the other one looks really nice, and that's been described by the woman who's just met the person who's been the woman who's been sketched. And it's a really beautiful ad which doesn't really promote Dove at all, but it promotes its. Its ethics or its belief set. And regardless of all sorts of things that you could dig. Could dig up about Dove, it puts across a very, very real and authentic message. And now that's something that's very much well known and in the. And in the public sphere. And I guess it's the best example that I can think of of authenticity there, which is really an organization or the marketing part of an organization, really digging down and working out. Well, if we were to put across something that was actually real, what would we do? Well, we'd actually think about how women think of themselves, and that's a very authentic message. And dub have been in this game for well over probably two decades establishing themselves as an authentic brand. So that's the big. The big guys. What you said about turning up to your audience as an authentic person. If we now sort of just switch to my own kind of, I guess personal experience of this, which I guess may well help. When I first started working, I worked for a software company. And this software company developed software for Lloyd's of London market, which was quite a sort of stress laden organization. I was employed by a software business to go in to clients to help them use the software. And what I do is I'd wear a. You know, the city is still full of suits. It's got, it's relaxed a bit in 30 years, but it's still fairly formalized. What I'd do is I'd wear a suit, but my suit would be this strange beige color. So they, so, but I liked it, I like my suit and I kind of thought, oh, I'm wearing a funky suit. This is really good. Go into where everybody is wearing kind of very straight things and what would happen is that they'd have this view, because obviously people have a view. Oh God, we've got the software guy coming in. What I learned most is that people love a good chat and they want to feel that you're on their side and that you're them. You can have a really, you can have a really good sort of interaction with people and they feel good and you feel good. And in the meantime you're telling them about how to use their software. And I guess that's the most, in a way, the most authentic experience I've had. Because you're kind of empathizing, but you're more important than that. You know, you're doing a job so you set your boundaries, but you're able to do it in the most human way possible. And I think that's what authentic, this word that's banded around at the moment. It's all about if you can put yourself in. People talk about putting themselves in the shoes, but put yourself in the mind and almost body of the person you're conveying. And this may be a target audience, not just one person, but essentially it's one person, a type of person, and you can do it with feeling and actually be them. Then you're kind of there. It takes a bit of work and it takes a bit of thought and sometimes it takes whole teams to do it. But I think that Dove achieved it and I guess I achieved it when I first started out working for a proper business.

Tell me about the advantages of showing up authentically and the disadvantages of not doing that from a business perspective.

I guess an easy question to answer the advantages of doing it is that I think that an audience wants to feel loved, I guess, for want of a better word, and maybe that is the right word. Well, they want to feel that you're engaged with them and that's the most important thing. No matter who you are, where you're from, they just want to feel that. And that's the first thing they want. And that's sometimes the only thing they want because they're feeling stressed or they're feeling something, or they may just feeling that, you know, I'm going to meet someone new or I'm going to come across something new and I want to feel that they're talking. They're not just talking my language, but they're being like me. And I think that's a massive advantage when it comes to doing business because it means that you're in the door. I think the essence of business is actually building trust. And I mean building trust, I don't mean instant trust, I mean building it. And it's a great place to start. You've got to maintain that, which often is very, very difficult. But it's a great start. If you can establish yourself in that sort of space, then you're on to a. You're on to a winner.

Yeah. So of course, you know, no one buys anything until they trust us. So I guess if we can build empathy by being authentic and kind of matching, you know, who our clients are. I think that was the point that Lee was making, that if he was turning up suited and booted to a client who were wearing jeans and T shirts, then he wasn't, A, he wasn't being authentic and B, he wasn't empathizing, he wasn't standing in the client's shoes at all. I always used to think I need to know exactly how my client dresses and I need to dress just a little bit smarter than that. But I certainly don't want to overdress. I don't want to go wearing a shirt and tie, which thankfully I haven't worn in a long time. To a client that is a jeans and T shirt wearing company.

There is an exception to that, I think, if they're expecting you to turn up in a suit, turn up in a suit. It's a really weird thing. I think it's about. A lot of. It's about perception, you know, and also the other thing is if you're not the sort of person who turns up in a suit, don't turn up in a suit. I don't think this is. I used to be about, you know, you know, in particular in NLP and techniques like that. People talk about matching. Yeah, yeah. And there is something in matching, of course, but I would say that that is not the overriding sort of approach to engagement. I think the most important thing is understanding your audience to the extent that you know what's appropriate with boundaries. I have to say that. And people talk about boundaries a lot. It's a millennial word, but they talk about it a lot. But it's quite important word, because one of the things about empathising, particularly if you're a consultant or a small business, that if you. You can go too far, so you end up empathizing in a kind of inappropriate way. And I don't mean that in necessarily salacious way, but I do mean it, that you can SAP too much of your own energy and go give too much to your client or expect them to give too much back. So it's. Empathy is a really powerful thing. And actually, I would say that it's a word that should. Shouldn't be used too liberally when it comes to engaging with an audience. Empathy is a very, very good tool to have. It's linked to intuition.

I guess the overarching message to this is that if as a business or as an agency, you have a really clear niche that you work in and that enables you to understand your ideal target customer, and those are people that you can do your best work for, then naturally you'll be able to build empathy because they will be your people and it will be easier to be authentic around them.

Absolutely. And if you have the confidence to believe that that will happen, then you're on again. You're onto a winner. But I have to say, when the agencies believed that the customer was always right, you had this lack of authenticity because you had this thing where there was an element of sycophancy, if you see what I mean. Not all the time, but it did happen. And some account managers that I know were brilliant because they were able to keep the boundaries, deliver what the client wanted and not appear that they were crawling up their bums.

Before we wrap this up, have you got any other thoughts around authenticity and any. Any tips that agency owners should be thinking about to show up as authentic?

I'm not sure whether this is relevant to the beginning of a relationship. I think it's more to do with the. The brand awareness side of it. So if you're promoting yourself, I think it helps if you can, from time to time, not just go on about your successes, but Also talk realistically about what you haven't been quite so successful in. I posted something on Instagram the other day, for example, about a talk I'd given that hadn't quite gone the way that I wanted it to, but it was quite important to me to do it because I felt that it might help other people to see that, you know, it's okay for things not to work out from time to time because actually, as they say, you learn far more from your failures than you do from your successes.

I'll link to this in the show notes, but I interviewed a few months back someone who runs a business called the Fail Coach. And his story is all about his failed businesses and how he got to rock bottom and then he committed suicide before he sort of rebuilt his business. So his or his whole message is actually a story about failure and rising from the ashes?

Absolutely. I think that there's something in that for everybody. You know, that the people want to see more and more without again, boundaries and not wasting time and not indulging and all that kind of stuff. But they do like to see from time to time people just being them themselves, which is, you know, a complex, interesting and fallible human entity. And I think that's quite important.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And you know, I often talk about when I ran my agency and the things that I got wrong and how towards the end of running the agency I was completely fed up and stressed because everybody bought their wheelbarrows of crap and piled them at my desk every day. And that is a good example of part of my story that is very honest and actually a lot of my target customers can relate to. So it's a great way of building empathy by sharing those sort of negatives as well as the positives. Now, before I let you go, I ask all of my guests if they could go back in time and give their younger self, who's just starting out in business, one piece of advice. What would it be? So what would you say to your.

Younger Jez, what you think now is true? Keep believing it and listen to people who are on track with you all the time and focus on what they're saying. And that, I think, is it. I think I would have certainly learned a lot if I'd have had a bit more self belief and been open to advice. More advice.

Yeah. I mean, that's good advice, isn't it, for us all today and you know, any other time is to surround yourself by great people, listen to them and trust yourself, I guess.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so Now, Jaz, if people wanted to get hold of you, what. What's their best route to connect with you?

Well, the best way is to go to my current website, which is called just.com. this is going to change to jessk.com. also, I have a LinkedIn page, an active LinkedIn page, and I'm on Instagram as I am just Jezebel. And yeah, my LinkedIn, you just look for Jezk.

Great. Okay, well, I appreciate that and I thank you for your time today. I'm sure the audience will find this interesting and probably thinking about authenticity and empathy is something that people don't often stop and think about. So there's probably some good lessons in here for everybody.

Thank you very much for having me.

So there you go. I hope you found today's episode useful and got a few thoughts or tips or reminders about the importance of us showing up in an authentic, empathetic way. Now, please feel free to share this episode with your colleagues so we can get the podcast to a wider audience. And if you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review, since that helps me also reach a wider audience. And I will see you next Thursday. And meantime, have a fantastic week.