Managing a remote workforce with Melanie Coeshott

Welcome to another episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. In today's episode, I'm talking all about managing a remote workforce and talking about some of the things that we need to do to keep our teams motivated and connected with our agency. I'm really excited to have Melanie Koshot join me today to talk about this really important topic. So let's get on with today's show.

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Tips and value added interviews with your host agency owner and coach, Rob Dosta. And welcome to today's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. I'm really excited to have with me today Melanie Koshot from Blue Diamond. Now, Melanie is a career coach, and I was really keen to have to talk to Melanie about managing a work a remote workforce because this is something that has been forced upon a lot of us. And so I was keen to talk to somebody who's got some experience of working both with the individuals and perhaps with the companies as well. So, Melanie, welcome aboard. And do you want to just give us a little bit of a background on yourself and what you currently do and who you help?

Yeah. Thank you. So my name's Melanie Koshot. As you've said, I am a career coach and I operate under the Blue diamond brand, which is my own company. Now, I work with lots of different people, but primarily the people that I work with are people that have been working in a professional capacity, and they've often been working in their roles for maybe two decades or more, and everything's been okay until the point where it isn't. And sometimes actually that point where they need some help is maybe they're looking to get a promotion, or maybe they're looking to move roles, or maybe they're looking to move organizations and they've not had to do this before. And all of a sudden they've got some challenges on their hands. So I help people to thrive in their current line of work, or I help them to identify and find their next challenge as well. So actually, that's another reason why people might come to me, is they're looking to maybe do something different, and that doing something different could be a new career. It could be going to a whole new organization and having to navigate that, or it could be that they just don't know what they want to do. They just want to get away from what they're doing as well. So I generally work with individuals and sometimes I also work with companies that bring me in to work with one or a team of their employees. But generally it's helping People to move on or move up or expand into a new capacity as well.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be able to relate to that kind of crossroads point in their career which led them probably to decide that actually the next career step for them was to start their own business. And I think a lot of us probably relate to that fact that they were in a job that wasn't going anywhere, or they were frustrated about their career path or how the agency or the business was run. So they thought, I know I'm going to go off and start my own business. And of course, it takes quite a lot of courage to do that. So having someone like you at their side to kind of eke out from them what they really want and what gets them out of bed every day. I think it's really interesting that a lot of people, especially kind of people who've been in a job for a long time, forget the fact that they're allowed to enjoy what they do, and they kind of end up thinking, I'm just in this job to earn money and it's secure. But of course, that's not enough, is it, in the long run?

No, it isn't. I mean, and sometimes that is enough for people if they're motivated by money or if they're motivated by, you know, security, financial security, or stability for their family situation. But I think many of us reach a point in our lives and it often happens to us in our 40s or 50s where we're thinking, well, actually, isn't there more to life than this? And are we just working to live or actually, shouldn't we be. No. Are we just living to work or should we be working to live? And actually, many of us take that time then to think about, well, what is it that I really want? And I think the lockdown over the last year has given so many people this opportunity, but also the catalyst to do this as well.

Yeah. And we all. We. I really believe that we all need that catalyst. When I was in a job back in the early 90s, before I started my first agency, I kind of felt like my. The business was going nowhere. There was a chance I was going to get made redundant. And that was my catalyst to say, I know I'm going to try and go it alone. I guess during the pandemic, the conversations you must be having with people have probably changed somewhat and maybe you're having more of them. But I wanted to talk today a bit about the fact that the pandemic has forced all businesses to Work remotely and we've got all this disparate workforce and how do we manage people? How do people stay connected to their organization and stay motivated? And how do organizations, what responsibility do they have to manage their people? And how have they gone about managing it differently? So there's a whole lot of questions there, so I'll just leave it there and I'll let you share your thoughts.

Yeah. So I think, you know, roll back the clock. A year ago and some of the most, I guess, foresighted organizations had already got their employees to work from home. And I think many of us were probably still in denial. Exactly. At this time last year, I know that I was. I was still carrying on life as it was because we could. And then I think slowly the rest of the world kind of got the message that we had to stay at home. And so what that did overnight is forced a lot of organisations and a lot of teams and a lot of employees to go from a situation that they knew and loved or maybe didn't love, but where they were going, you know, Monday to Friday in the workplace, with occasional working from home in, you know, agreed situations or special situations, or with some of the most more progressive organizations that were allowing people already to have that flexibility. But I think the majority of people were 9 till 5, Monday to Friday in the office, and overnight everyone literally had to down tools, pick up the equipment that they needed to be able to do their job and go and work from home. And, you know, this has been a big shock culturally for us over the last year. And I think initially, certainly listening to my husband here on the phone and the conference calls that were going on that first two weeks was all about, can we actually do this? And, you know, is the equipment working? Or has John got the equipment that he needs to do what he needs to do and the connection and things like that. So that first couple of weeks was really a settling phase, should we call it, and settling in for the individuals and the organisations as well. Now, obviously there was a lot of disruption going on there as well in terms of do we even have a business going forward? But I would say for the majority of businesses, yes, they did. It was then just about transferring the work that was done in the office to be done in a different location. So I think the first couple of weeks certainly was that. And then there was that bedding in time that actually people then getting used to their new location and their new workflow, really in that way. But then even back in that initial lockdown phase, managers and employees alike were having to settle into new rhythms of working. And so whereas they might be seeing each other in passing, or bumping into each other in the corridor or the water cooler, or overhearing those conversations, that was removed overnight. And so more formal, formal is probably not the right word, but more scheduled interactions had to replace that. And whether these were scheduled interactions on a one to one basis or scheduled interactions with the team, or a combination of those, I think that was something that changed. So potentially you might have that one to one meeting with your manager on a weekly or a monthly or even a quarterly basis in the old days, whereas that might be brought forward. And especially in those initial weeks, it was really understanding how work would get done during that time. Now roll forward the clock. Things have moved on a lot since then and people have become much more used to working more autonomously. But actually that collaboration is still pretty critical. And in some jobs it's, it's essential really for them to be able to do that work. So I think we've all had to adopt to different ways of working. And for the individuals, you know, it's about finding that flow, finding those ways of working, collaborating or working on their own. And in terms of the managers, it's not all about their responsibility, but they probably hold a bigger share of the responsibility in terms of managing themselves as an individual and an employee, but also working with their team as well. And whether that's finding ways to organize the team and organize the workflow or have those check ins to make sure everybody's doing okay. And there's, you know, there's probably a combination of different things there involved in a minimum standard and then the best practices as well. And you know, we've all dealt with this situation as individuals in different, different ways. And I can say for myself, you know, even on some days I will have very different emotions. And I'm somebody that's probably fairly in touch with my emotions and knows how to regulate them. And I think for some people, having I guess all of this time on their own or having to work in a different way could have been quite a shock and quite lonely at times.

Yeah, I think there's sort of a sweeping statement that people say generally working at home is much better than, than working in an office and commuting and all that stuff. But of course that isn't entirely true, is it? Because it obviously suits a lot of people and it means that they can weave their life responsibilities around work to some extent, but it's not true for everybody. You know, I've you know, seen a few clients where I'm talking to them and they're sitting on the end of their bed and it's really noisy in their house and they can't, they don't really have a good working environment. And you think to yourself, that can't be good for productivity or for focus or for motivation. So I guess it hasn't. We can't just assume that it's good for everybody, can we?

No. And I think, you know, even for the people that love working at home, and maybe they'd already done a bit of it before, or maybe they found that actually we don't have to do this commute anymore or we don't have to struggle with the traffic or the trains or anything. I think even the people that are maybe more suited to it in terms of their personality, a lot of them are saying, yeah, love working from home and I do want to keep some of this, but actually I'd still like to go in the office maybe one day a week or I'd like some flexibility in terms of when I actually physically see my other team members. So I think that flexible approach and that flexibility needs to work two ways. It needs to work from the employees, it needs to work from the organisational standpoint as well, and the team and what that team actually delivers as well. So I don't think it is a broad brush approach that the office is dead. We won't be using offices anymore, but I don't think it will necessarily be. 100% of us are back in the office Monday to Friday, 9 till 5 either.

What do you think? Like, when you look at really good leaders and really good employees, what do you think people, what do you think they've learned to do differently during this pandemic? And what advice would you give from them to other people who perhaps, you know, aren't getting it so.

Right. Yeah, number of different things here. So certainly awareness, so self awareness and also awareness of their colleagues or other people in their team. And, you know, this often starts from us, ourselves with understanding, well, how am I feeling or how productive am I being or whatever. So it's, I guess asking ourselves some questions first and foremost, but then whether we have management responsibilities or not, we all interact with others to a greater or lesser extent. So it's then looking at that wider pool of stakeholders that we have and looking in at their needs as well. Now maybe they're not quite as aware as we are, so sometimes we might have to prompt them or ask them the question to get them to Have a look at that as well. But I think certainly that awareness is hugely important. Communication is a big one. So whether that communication is via zoom calls or any other video conferencing, we all talk about this zoom fatigue. But actually these tools have been really, really useful. They've really come into their own during this time. And you can't actually beat that video interface at this time in the times where we can't see people face to face. So that's been very, very useful. But that's not to say that that's appropriate every time you interact with people. You know, there are other means that we can use, like how good old telephones or emails or chats. So I guess it's about using those different communication methods and making sure people are still talking and they're getting the message across, but they're used appropriately. And people are not bombarded with, you know, calls in their diaries or interfaces, when actually maybe the people just need to get on with their work as well. So there were some expressions about, oh, you can never communicate too much. Well, I think sometimes you can communicate too much. So it's looking at the appropriateness of the types of communication and the frequency of them as well, but making sure that the people in the team all receive the same information as well. Because what you don't want to be doing is talking to some more than others. And then poor old Jill, she's not involved in any of the discussions, and how could she know what's going on and how can she feel part of that team? So communication definitely important as well, and just I think, looking at the human side of people as well. So, as you say, said earlier, you know, you've had meetings with people where they're sat on their bed and whatever. We are dealing with humans here. At the end of the day, our biggest assets are often our people, and we need to, you know, respect that. Actually, these people are human beings and they do have lives and they do have feelings and they do have other responsibilities. Now, you can't unsee or unlearn some of these things that we've learned about our colleagues during this time. So I think that humility and that humanness is really important to definitely take into consideration while we're still in this crazy lockdown situation, but to not lose that going forward as well.

Yeah, it's a few things to pick up on there, I think. I don't know if it's you that posted this on LinkedIn or someone did, but they posted some stats about how we communicate. Not Just verbally, but visually as well. And it explained why a lot of people suffer from zoom fatigue. Because I feel like you have to concentrate so much harder because you don't have all that body language and all those other cues that you would get if you were literally sitting in a room with someone. I'm interested to know your views on where does the responsibility for some of this stuff stop with the employer and get passed on to the employee? Because I guess that's a very gray area at the moment. What's my responsibility as a manager? To constantly make sure my team are okay versus my team member sticking their hand up and saying, hey, I'm not okay.

I think it's a very gray line, as you say, or gray area. And actually it's a joint responsibility. So as the individual, you know, they're the ones that are closest to what's going on in their situation and their lives. So it's definitely to a certain extent up to them to flag this. But as the manager or the leader of a team, it's up to you to provide that comfortable space, that safe space where people do feel safe enough to put their hand up and say, actually it's not okay today or this week or whatever, or I need something different or I need some help. So I think without the manager or the employer creating that space, the individual might feel reluctant or scared or, you know, they might not feel that they can. And it's about giving them permission ahead of time, setting up that space to allow them to do it. And, you know, that's not just one off. Right. You can come and talk to me, but you know, just reiterating actually, that it is there and maybe they don't need it now. Maybe they'll need it in a month's time or in six months time, but it's about creating that safety.

Yeah. So let's sort of. On that topic, let's dig a bit deeper. And clearly a lot of people have suffered with mental health challenges during the lockdown, and I think they're going to suffer it even more. I had a really interesting reaction when in the UK they announced the road path to getting out of lockdown. I thought I would be completely euphoric, but actually I had really strange reaction to it and I don't know why. Perhaps it's partly because I've got so used to being antisexual and stuck in my house. And so I don't think when we come out of lockdown that the mental health challenges are just immediately going to go away. So what are you seeing when you're talking to your clients? What are some of the topics and the themes that you're seeing happen around mental health?

Yeah, and I agree, I don't think it's going to go away. I think some of these challenges are going to be long lasting and I think some of them might only arise after the fact as well. So I think to a certain extent, a bit like, you know, when you've been working really hard and then you go on holiday and then you get ill, I think there might be some situations where after the fact things, things come out and whether that's associated with the children or, you know, and it's not just kids and working parents, it could be anything. I think the fact that we have essentially lost a lot of our free will over the last year in a way that none of us could ever have imagined. I think there will be some longer lasting consequences. So I think it is something that will need to happen gradually and I think again, organisations being understanding of that and it's not going to be a one size all approach because it's, you know, everybody's going to deal with things in different ways. But I guess it's about being flexible and giving people permission and showing that understanding and not just giving lip service to it, but actually opening doors and allowing people to express something or keep it in or having, you know, mental health days or things like that. I think as a society there has been a big shift over the last couple of years anyway in terms of being more able to talk about these things, but I don't think we're quite there yet. And I think certainly some of the more progressive organizations definitely are getting ahead of the game. So I know somebody that has recently been appointed as the full time wellbeing person for that organisation, which is fantastic. Now the thing is it's a big organisation and there's only one of her, but it's a great step in the right direction and actually that organization is also having a kind of community outreach aspect to it as well. So that woman who's doing some amazing stuff within her organisation is also got some kind of community related role now that cannot fall on one person. But I think it is a good step in the right direction and I think other progressive organisations will be taking this seriously as well. And whether it's having internal people with some of those roles and responsibilities or it's bringing outside people or having access to counsellors and things like that, a lot of it is about making again creating that safe space, but having a positive intention and allowing people to voice any concerns that they might have. Or, you know, in the same way that if you're sick, you should stay at home sometimes, if you're not feeling right, maybe that's a. An opportunity to take some time out, away from the desk or the computer or going into the office. In terms of. Sometimes if you give people some time to. Some time out, some time to deal with something, that's much better than them carrying on and burning out and then needing a lot more time off and having a lot more kind of bigger consequences as a result. So I don't necessarily think it will be something that shifts overnight, but I do feel hopeful that it's brought a lot more of this into the attention of businesses.

It's such a hard one, isn't it? Because if you're a SME agency owner and you've got five or six staff, knowing where your responsibility lies with this versus, you know, I always say to people, look, we employ adults, we should expect our staff to behave like adults. But knowing where that line's drawn, I had a situation recently where someone was saying to me that they run a company where they need everybody in the office. And now there's this roadmap out. They've announced to their staff that they need to be back in the office from whatever the date is, and they've got a member of staff saying, I don't feel safe about coming back to the office. And it's like, well, you know, that's what we need you to do. And they were asking my advice. And it's a difficult one, isn't it, to know what to say? Because I don't know, you know, if you need people in the office, if it can't be, it has to be predominantly office based and that's what that team member needs to do to be successful. Then it's difficult when they turn around and say, well, actually, I don't feel comfortable coming back to the office.

Yeah, no, that is. That is a challenge. And I think partly going back to something that we said earlier, it's around flexibility. So actually, does everybody need to be in the office every single day or are there shades of grey and flexibility in terms of if that person isn't feeling safe, is there a way that that bridge can be closed a bit or that gap can be closed in terms of helping them? So I guess a lot of these things do start with conversations. You know, what is that safety related to? Is it to do with the travel to get there? You know, maybe in public transport or is it actually being in the office? It's trying to understand where those concerns come from to be able to help and support that person. And actually sometimes there's a shift, isn't there? So historically we have, I guess, compensated people and rewarded people for the time that they've spent working on something. But actually, you know, a lot of us are salaried people and what we deliver is, is on a bigger scale than actually the number of hours that we work. So maybe more outcome based goals and compensation associated with that rather than that traditional clocking in, clocking out on a weekly basis or daily basis.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more on that one. It's crazy. I remember when early in my career and I was in that typical situation of sitting at my desk and waiting for my manager to go home before I went home, just because, you know, keeping up appearances and yet no one should be judged on how many hours they work. Like you say, they should be judged on the quality of the work. Talking about this, let's just move on to sort of the last thing, which is a bit of sort of crystal ball gazing, which of course we know is completely impossible, given no one could have known a year ago what was going to happen. But if you were looking forward, say a year from now, and we were sitting here in March 2022, what do you think the world in terms of, you know, the working environment and the individual, what's it going to look like, do you think?

So, as you say, none of us has a crystal ball, but I think it's going to be a much more hybrid situation. So I like to hope that some of the good bits from the past will, will remain. So those collaborative opportunities where teams get together and work for a project or an initiative and come together for that and yet more attention given to some of those more individual times and opportunities to work. So I mean, some of us work really well and thrive in that kind of loud environment and some of us do prefer a much quieter kind of peaceful environment. And actually one size doesn't fit all. And even in a small team you might have some real variations in terms of how people do their best work. And going back to the previous conversation, it's about output. You know, if you want your best work from me, it is actually a combination. Sometimes I need that quiet time, sometimes I want to be alone and with my thoughts and being creative. And yet other times I would do well having those discussions, getting that energy from other people and working in a more collaborative way. And I think that, you know, getting people in the office all day, every day is probably not the way forward. That could vary a lot in terms of the individuals. It could vary a lot in terms of the roles that people have to deliver. But I believe that there will be a much more hybrid situation there as well. And, you know, this could have much bigger repercussions as well in terms of. On the. On the amount of traffic that's. Or the amount of commuter traffic in terms of the trains and things like that as well. So if people are maybe a bit more fluid in terms of the start times or the end times or the number of days they're actually in the office, this could actually reduce a lot of commuting traffic. And as a result, that would be better for the environment as well. So I'm not saying we're going to immediately jump to that. I think it's going to be a phasing in approach as organisations get a bit more confident and the individuals within them as well. But I hope that there will be a happier situation for more people going forward.

Yeah, I hope we are not like elastic bands, which I always think human beings are, and I hope we don't just pin back to what we were doing before. I'm determined to maintain as much of the way I work now, because pre pandemic, I would spend my life commuting into London or sitting in a traffic, getting to a client. And I've realised I can be so much more productive and not have that full commute. So I really don't want to lose that. But I can already see some clients saying, hey, Rob, can you come into our offices? And I'm saying, yes. And I'm thinking, last question, really, when you're talking to people and they're coming to you for career coaching, what is it that they're looking for from their next employer in terms of benefits and environment and opportunity and so on?

A lot more understanding of them as an individual. So I think one of the challenges at the moment, and this is back to the old days, is that actually they're just a number a lot of the time, or just somebody that does a role. So they're not necessarily appreciated as an individual or even not even appreciated, recognized sometimes as an individual. And it almost seems like, well, one person could be just easily replaced with somebody else. And actually we're all individuals and we all have different needs and we all bring different things. So certainly that recognition that actually what they can bring or what they do is much Bigger than just a bean counter or a bum in a seat or whatever. So I think that's one thing certainly the flexibility. So and that comes with trust as much as anything else. So you know, the flexibility around, well, if I decide that I'm going to be working from home today or if I decide that I'm going to go and see a client or whatever, that there's trust that comes with that. And actually I don't need to be, I don't want to feel I have to explain myself or validate my decision. So. And you know, treating people like grown ups really not, not like that. You've got a class of school children, you know, we are all grown ups and we should be treating, treated that much. The other thing is around career progression. So certainly a lot of companies talk about, you know, opportunity and training and they, they kind of throw a bit of money at it in terms of providing budgets that people can get some training. And it does rely on the individuals to be self starters to tap into that. But then once people get those qualifications or they got those new skills, there needs to be some way that they can try them out, they can use them. And I think often only a part of our skill set is used at any one point in time. And that's certainly something that I felt in the corporate world as well. But it's a discussion I've had with a number of my clients recently and not always thinking, right, we've got to bring in this person from outside to do this role or not always we've got to bring in this outsourced service to do this. But actually looking at value that is already within their company and actually how rewarding that could be for those individuals to showcase and try out some of their other skills as well. And people are not always looking for promotion, they're not always looking for a pay rise. But they want to bring value and they want to do rewarding work.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really important point, that it's not always just the natural thing is pay rise. And I've got one more question so I'd like to because something that just occurred to me while you were talking about that, which is a challenge that I see a lot of small agencies suffering from. So they've got a team of four or five people. Those people are ambitious and they want to move up but obviously they can't just keep promoting those people because there isn't always somewhere for them to go. And there's a danger that if they promote them it just becomes a job title and they're not actually doing that role. So if you were advising an employer around that challenge, what would you say they need to do to keep their staff motivated and retain their staff for the long term?

And that is a challenge, isn't it? And not just in smaller organisations and not just in small organisations as well. That can be a challenge in bigger ones. You know, you want people to develop and grow and get good at their roles or take on new responsibilities. Yet there is a finite kind of path to progression. Now, certainly, from an employer's perspective, you can't retain everybody and you can't allow everybody to grow because it's just not feasible. So there will naturally be some people that you can't retain and you will have to let those ones go, you know, and you will have to be supportive of them in that endeavour, because then that will allow other people to come on up through as well. So there will always be some kind of natural attrition. But I think for the ones that do want to stay, it's about finding different ways to support their development and again, going back to what is it that they're after. It's not always a promotion, it's not always a job title, it's not always a pay rise. Sometimes it is those things. But a lot of us just want to do a good job and be recognised for doing a good job, or we want to be given different opportunities to learn new skills or to experience new things. So I think understanding what it is that people are looking for and to then look for ways to accommodate that. Now, that doesn't mean that you can accommodate everybody's wishes 100% of the time, but to the extent that you can tailor that then to the needs of the organisation, but the needs of the individuals as well for that optimal position.

Yeah, and I think there's a good point there that you said that you can't always keep everybody. And in fact, I think for a healthy organisation, they need a certain level of turnover just to bring new blood into and change the dynamics a bit. So, last question then, which I ask all my guests, if you could go back in time and give younger Melanie, who's just starting out in business, a piece of advice, what would it be?

So I believed for a long time, and I don't know where this advice came from, but I believed that a good job would speak for itself. And actually, it took me a long time to realise that a good job doesn't speak for itself. You can do the best job in the world. And actually, if nobody knows that you're doing it, or if the right people don't see that you're doing it, then, you know, you can just sit there doing your good job for a long time. So actually look for ways to make sure that the right people know that. And that doesn't mean you've got to be going away around blowing your own trumpet all the time. But I think there are definitely ways where you can make sure that you're getting the right exposure or informing the right people of what you're doing. And the other thing is, don't wait till somebody comes and taps you on the shoulder. Yes, it happens sometimes. And I've been in that fortune. You know, I've been in that fortunate position. And I've also been frustrated by other people who have been tapped on the shoulder. But actually, the biggest movements for me have been when I've got off my bottom, out of my chair and gone actually and found those opportunities. And sometimes they were there waiting to be discovered, and sometimes I created them as well. So, yeah, a good job doesn't always speak for itself. And don't wait to be tapped on the shoulder.

Good advice. And I think that advice applies whether it's you as an employee or even you as an agency with your clients, because sometimes we have to be good at doing our own PR to make sure that all the right people know what a good job we're doing. And like you say, you can't just sit back and assume that everybody will notice because that's not how it works, is it? That's. And it's good because we've not had that as a piece of advice we give ourselves before. So it's always good when I hear something new. So, last thing, if people wanted to find out more about Blue diamond or about Melanie, where would they go?

The most obvious place is probably on LinkedIn. So I'm Melanie Koshott. Nice and simple. You can find me on there. I have a little gem icon next to my name, so you can't miss the fact that I'm Blue Diamond. You can also come to my website, which is BlueDiamondCoach.com and yeah, there's lots of different information on my website, so you can get a better flavor for the things that I do, both for individuals and for organizations as well.

Fantastic. So we'll include all of those links in the show notes. And I just want to say a big thank you for joining me on the agency Accelerator podcast today and sharing your thoughts on, you know, the world of remote working and you know, how what responsibilities businesses have got towards their staff and the other way around as well. So I really appreciate your time today.

Okay, thank you very much.

Okay, so I hope you found today's podcast really useful and made you think a little bit differently about how you might work with your teams during the pandemic. And once we come out of lockdown and the impact that the pandemic will have on our future ways of working and our future ways of communicating and keeping our teams motivated. As ever, if you enjoyed this episode, then please do share it and hit the subscribe button. And of course, consider leaving a review for us. Other than that, have a fantastic weekend and I'll see you next week for the next episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast.

Sam.